Ren Allen

~Forgive me Ren, but I do not understand how a child can shove another
child down the stairs and you expect your first instinct to be a hug.
I do not mean to seem argumentative, I am genuinely curious. ~

By not seeing anything as reward or punishment. My children and I do
not live in that paradigm, we're here to work together not hurt or
reward each other for anything.
There are times I've removed myself and a child from a situation until
they could calm, or very strongly said "no, that's not ok", but I
don't punish my children.

As far as getting to the point where a hug is instinctual, that takes
time. I've had four children and lots of years of peaceful parenting
practice to get there and I still get more snippy than I'd like
sometimes. It's really not that hard now. I see a child that has hurt
another child and is honestly upset. Kids really don't want to hurt
each other, but by demonizing the act, they start to see themselves as
flawed or "mean" or "awful". By realizing that children sometimes act
out in inexperienced manners, I can see the behavior for what it
is...a mistake.

Nobody needs to be harangued for a mistake. Otoh, Sierra was hurt and
crying, so I very clearly pointed out that what he did had a very
negative consequence, that I didn't like it and I didn't want anyone
pushing anybody else especially down stairs.
He was very sorry and sad for his choice. Why would he need
punishment? Why wouldn't he need a hug? Would you rather be berated
and made to feel "less than" when you screw up? Or would you rather
have the other person say "I don't like what you did, but I love you"
and give a hug?

I feel my kids are a testament to this style of parenting. They don't
fight hardly at all! Sierra and Jalen are the two most likely to have
a problem (partly due to Jalen's younger age and skill level...5y.o.)
if anyone does, yet they can play happily all day together without
more than a simple discussion on a disagreement.

My other children almost NEVER fight. I can't remember the last time
Jared and Trevor even had a disagreement (16,12). We rarely have any
kind of sibling rivalry issues any more. My house is fairly peaceful
over all....

I think punishment (even for poor choices) is not the best way to help
a person navigate the world with self intact. Marji really summarized
it beautifully. My kids have the opportunity to feel whole and
complete, even when they make a poor choice (called learning) and move
on without all the angst and bad feelings most kids get dumped on
them. Trust me, hugging and loving when a person screws up does NOT
lead to more poor choices, it leads to a healthier human that makes
better choices each time.

Jalen has some very intense personality traits, I truly believe he'd
be very squashed with a more traditional style of parenting. He's been
the best Zen master a person could want.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Ren Allen

~Forgive me Ren, but I do not understand how a child can shove another
child down the stairs and you expect your first instinct to be a hug.~

I may have misunderstood your question Rachell. Perhaps you were
referring to my initial anger that caused him to run away?
It's not that I necessarily expect the very first reaction to be
WANTING to give him a hug, but when I slow down and see my child right
before me, a being that wants to love and be loved, it helps me
approach the situation differently than how my initial response would
dictate.

I was only regretting that the words out of my mouth were harsh enough
to make him want to run away to a room. I could have phrased it much
differently and worked through the situation after hearing the whole
story and talking to him about why we can't do that.

The cool thing is, my very first response to problems is often giving
a hug.:) That would not have been true when my oldest was a little
guy...I wish it would have been. Hugs solve a lot of problems.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Brian & Alexandra Polikowsky

My ds was 3 and a half this January when just after my dd was born one of my friends ( one of the only unschoolers I know in person -and the first) came to visit with her son. They were here for most the afternoon until the evening. The kids were playing. Her son is just a few months older that ds and they get along pretty good. Right about 8:00 PM when ds was getting tired and "wild" because of it , we are standing at the top of my stairs that are high and pretty steep, the kids were playing and my son pushed her son down the stairs. It was horrible , I gave the baby to my mom and ran down stairs screaming. I truly believed her son was seriously hurt cause the fall was ugly ( I also peed on my pants in fear). Her son was fine. After checking on him to make sure I went up stairs to find my ds under the bed in fear. He was not in fear of me but what he had done. He actually meant to help his friend slide down ( They were playing sliding in their butts down the stairs) but his friend was standing when he pushed him. I did talk loud and scream but I was able to keep my head a little and just point out that pushing can be dangerous in the stairs. I know he did not meant to hurt his friend and I gave him a hug after I had stopped shaking. He has never pushed anyone in the stairs again.
Love is the best "discipline".
Alex

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

One of the (many!) great things about Joyce's writings is her ability
to get people to look at a situation from a child's point of
view---usually by putting an adult spin on it. It's so hard to see
things from a child's point of view. So many of us have forgotten what
it was like to be a child. I don't---not really. I remember a LOT of
how I felt as a kid.

Anyway, I was thinking about this Joyce-style today while doing some
gardening.

When Cameron was eight, there was another eight year old boy who was
killed when he ran across a *very* busy street. His mom was there, but
he scooted out of her reach. A car slammed into him; the driver had no
chance to avoid him.

I know we charge a driver with involuntary manslaughter in such a
case, and I'm assuming that's what happened to this driver. I never
hear the follow-up.

But I remember when it happened, I pointed it out to Cameron---that
there was an eight year old boy killed right here. I remember saying
how *horrible* the driver must've felt. I bet she could've used a hug
or two herself that day. I bet the mom could have to. Neither wanted
this to happen. It really *was* an accident.

Yet in our society, we *must* place blame *somewhere*. The mom blamed
the driver. I bet the driver felt guilty--and I bet she blamed the
child or the mom (it wasn't really her fault!).

But really when accidents happen, everyone involved needs hugs and a
kind word.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll

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Tina

<My other children almost NEVER fight. I can't remember the last time
Jared and Trevor even had a disagreement (16,12). We rarely have any
kind of sibling rivalry issues any more. My house is fairly peaceful
over all....>

Ren

I've really been enjoying this thread. I'm wondering if you have
any advice for a family that hasn't lived this lifestyle all along.
We have three unschoolers still at home. Adrian, 12, is a veteran
unschooler by now, but Amie, 16, and Andrew, 14, are very new to
unschooling and have been in PS their entire lives before this. I
don't see a lot of sibling rivalry per se, but I do see a lot of
let's say "heavy debating", especially between the boys, for
debating's sake. These so called debates could go on forever, lead
to strong arguing and culminate in bad feelings all around if not
thwarted early on.

I could learn a little about being more effective in these
situations, but so much information is for starting at the
beginning. Our beginning has grown kids out of the house and
teenagers all around. It will take some effort to retrain my brain,
but I am diligently working on doing just that.

The one area that I struggle with the most is Andrew. He just came
home at Easter. He's really having difficulty grasping exactly what
it is we are doing here. His talk and concerns are still very
schooly, and I didn't even know they were still there until he spent
the day with Pat, dh. He expressed Andrew's "concerns" and
his "concerns" as well. I figured out that neither of them really,
truly and honestly understand unschooling.

I know Andrew is still very much in the deschooling phase. Maybe
just continuing doing what we are doing will yield positive results
in our home. In the meantime I would like to have a few "tools"
logged in my mental tool belt in order to develop positive reaction
when he is less than pleasant. I'm trying to avoid words like rude
or disrespectful in sharing this with you, but they're the only way
I know to see his behavior right now. I do try to talk with him,
but that is still difficult. The conversations are usually one-
sided. I look forward to the day that they are two-sided.

Thanks - Tina