Ren Allen

~We resolved the problem with love and we all feel good, immediately,
rather than letting negative feelings erode our relationship. Wow!
Such joy and I only changed myself, my own response.~

That is truly, truly HUGE! I got tears in my eyes just reading about
it...thanks for sharing a sweet moment. It really IS all about us
needing to change and see with different eyes.

It's funny, because back when Trevor was a wee little man (he's 16.5
now), my Dad wrote me a letter encouraging us to simply HUG him when
we felt like spanking. It was about this time that my parents were
having major regrets about spanking and other issues. That letter is
archived at Sandra's site now.

It was such a sweet letter, that I saved it for years and years. It
sounded nice, but putting it into practice was SO damn hard when my
anger made me want to smack something. ugh. My poor oldest was the
guinea pig for sure. I've apologized to him many times.

It's really cool, that over the years I HAVE been able to change my
response. One good interaction, one better choice at a time, I've
built up a cache of peaceful moments that lead to more of the same. If
you just do that each and every time a situation builds up, you
eventually change a lot of those old tapes.

Jalen shoved Sierra down the stairs today and hurt her. I was really
upset, it had just come out of the blue, giving me NO chance to even
problem solve.
I really think he was joking around and didn't realize how close she
was to the stairs, because he looked shocked. I turned and barked
something angry at him and he stomped off, slamming a door.

After I made sure Sierra was alright, I knocked on the door and told
him I needed to talk right now, please open the door. He reluctantly
opened it. I think if I ever hit him, or punished him, there's no WAY
he would have opened that door! But he knows that even if I'm pissed,
I'm going to talk and hug and BE with him.

So he opens it and I pick him up and hug him right away, thanking him
for letting me in because I was very upset. I explained that I was
upset because Sierra could have gotten hurt very badly and "I love you
and I love Sierra and I don't want anyone to get hurt"

He was very sorry. I'm so glad that my instinct IS to hug and love
when things get rough. Now if I could just tame that darn first
response that cause him to slam the door in the first place.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Rachell Skerlec

Forgive me Ren, but I do not understand how a child can shove another child
down the stairs and you expect your first instinct to be a hug. I do not
mean to seem argumentative, I am genuinely curious. I preface this with
saying I am by no means an extreme unschooler or much of an unschooler at
all. I am just investigating options and other ideas (that is why I am
here). Now I know you said you think he miscalculated her proximity to the
stairs and in so many cases miscalculations are a factor but in some
instances they are not. In all too many cases there is deliberateness or
even genuine malice. I find it hard to instinctively reward a poor, unkind
choice.



~Rachell


"So shines a good deed in a weary world."
<http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/william_shakespeare/> William Shakespeare

_____


From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:59 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Breaking news:



~We resolved the problem with love and we all feel good, immediately,
rather than letting negative feelings erode our relationship. Wow!
Such joy and I only changed myself, my own response.~

That is truly, truly HUGE! I got tears in my eyes just reading about
it...thanks for sharing a sweet moment. It really IS all about us
needing to change and see with different eyes.

It's funny, because back when Trevor was a wee little man (he's 16.5
now), my Dad wrote me a letter encouraging us to simply HUG him when
we felt like spanking. It was about this time that my parents were
having major regrets about spanking and other issues. That letter is
archived at Sandra's site now.

It was such a sweet letter, that I saved it for years and years. It
sounded nice, but putting it into practice was SO damn hard when my
anger made me want to smack something. ugh. My poor oldest was the
guinea pig for sure. I've apologized to him many times.

It's really cool, that over the years I HAVE been able to change my
response. One good interaction, one better choice at a time, I've
built up a cache of peaceful moments that lead to more of the same. If
you just do that each and every time a situation builds up, you
eventually change a lot of those old tapes.

Jalen shoved Sierra down the stairs today and hurt her. I was really
upset, it had just come out of the blue, giving me NO chance to even
problem solve.
I really think he was joking around and didn't realize how close she
was to the stairs, because he looked shocked. I turned and barked
something angry at him and he stomped off, slamming a door.

After I made sure Sierra was alright, I knocked on the door and told
him I needed to talk right now, please open the door. He reluctantly
opened it. I think if I ever hit him, or punished him, there's no WAY
he would have opened that door! But he knows that even if I'm pissed,
I'm going to talk and hug and BE with him.

So he opens it and I pick him up and hug him right away, thanking him
for letting me in because I was very upset. I explained that I was
upset because Sierra could have gotten hurt very badly and "I love you
and I love Sierra and I don't want anyone to get hurt"

He was very sorry. I'm so glad that my instinct IS to hug and love
when things get rough. Now if I could just tame that darn first
response that cause him to slam the door in the first place.:)

Ren
learninginfreedom.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 17:54 6/27/2006, you wrote:

>...I do not understand how a child can shove another child
>down the stairs and you expect your first instinct to be a hug. I do not
>mean to seem argumentative, I am genuinely curious.

Well, I'm not Ren, and I don't play her on TV, but jumping in here,
there is a tape called "Peaceful Parenting." It's a tape of a talk
that Sandra Dodd and Richard Pr....ski (sorry 'bout that!) did at a
conference some years ago. I've listened to it several times and
I've since given it away. I'm telling you, one way that we could
move toward having a better, more peaceful, kinder world would be to
provide that tape with every newborn baby, or better yet, every
positive home pregnancy test result. I'm not kidding.

There are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, we do not know
what is in someone else's heart, and if we try to assume we run the
risk of misjudging a person. I think that malicious acts are rarer
in little kids than folks in our society would have us believe. I
think that things can get out of hand and can *look* that way, but ~
and this is just a hunch on my part, nothing scientific ~ I think
that most of these *malicious* acts are just mistakes or accidents
that get out of hand.

Second, if you think back to when you were little, you probably made
a lot of mistakes. Some were inconsequential and some may have been
serious. But, they were mistakes, and learning machines that we are,
making mistakes is one of the ways we learn (although sometimes we
have to keep making the same mistake before we get it). I'm guessing
that you were probably judged rather harshly for some of your
mistakes. (Some kids are judged harshly for all of their
mistakes.) And, you may have judged yourself rather harshly for
some, if not all, of your mistakes. I don't know about you, but when
I feel I'm being judge harshly or judged at all, a lot of not-so-good
thoughts and feelings arise. I feel defensive and I also may feel
very angry at the victim. Things get skewed and I don't see things properly.

Now, imagine someone showing you, a little kid, compassion and
understanding at a time when you are judging yourself
harshly. That's angelic. And, it works wonders!

I can imagine that if Ren had railed and ranted and punished Jalen
for his *mistake*, he would have become defensive and perhaps even
angry at Sierra, the victim of his mistake. Inwardly, he would take
on and internalize all the terrible feelings he would have about the
incident and perhaps the terrible things that we said about him. How
can a person with a mindset like that gain anything positive from his
experience? But, by being shown compassion at a time when he needed
it most, *he* could show compassion. That's such a huge thing! And,
that's learning.

The thing is, it's hard for us to make the compassionate response our
default response in times of extreme stress. But, that's something
to move towards, and that's covered beautifully on that tape. If you
can get a copy of it, it will light up your world!

> I find it hard to instinctively reward a poor, unkind
>choice.

Compassion is not a reward. The trick is to let go of the concepts
of "rewards" and "punishments." Jalen wasn't being rewarded; he
needed a hug right then, and Ren was able to find the compassion
within herself to give Jalen what he needed. Jalen needed that hug
just as much as Sierra did.


> I find it hard to instinctively reward a poor, unkind
>choice.

I can understand that. But, the more you make the choice to be more
compassionate in your responses, the closer you move to having
compassion be your instinctual response.

It helps to acknowledge that every experience is one that we all~wee
ones and old ones~can learn and grow from. Jalen had a powerful
learning experience today, and because he didn't have to waste his
time and energy feeling mean and defensive and angry at the world, he
will be able to absorb it and grow from it.

I hope that helps a little.

Compassionately yours,

Marji



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> I find it hard to instinctively reward a poor, unkind
>choice.

Compassion is not a reward. The trick is to let go of the concepts
of "rewards" and "punishments.of "rewards" and "punishments.<WBR>" J
needed a hug right then, and Ren was able to find the compassion
within herself to give Jalen what he needed. Jalen needed that hug
just as much as Sierra did.


********

As I was reading this, I started thinking that the majority of people (at
least people I come across in my everyday life at the store, the park, etc)seem
to ONLY engage with their kids in a reward/punishment reaction. When the
child does something "good" they squeal and clap their hands, or say "it's
about time" (which is a disguised punishment) and we all know what they do when
the child does something "bad". The rest of the time, the kids are more or
less ignored.

People on the more peaceful end of the parenting spectrum treat their
children more like people, and they use less and less of the rewards and
punishment. Their lives are not as divided up into good and bad, and the children are
connected part of the family (not just noticed when good or bad).

So when Ren hugs Jalen, even after a bad choice, it isn't a reward because
Jalen does not live in an environment of rewards and punishment. He lives in
a world of "mommy loves me all the time, no matter what", not "mommy only
loves me when I'm good". In this context, it makes sense to hug him, to
reaffirm that unconditional love commitment especially when he is probably feeling
a bit less than lovable for hurting someone.

My pediatrician was trying to talk me into putting my kids in school and I
said something stupid (well, it wasn't stupid, but only unschoolers could
understand me! LOL!). I said "but school is only about good and bad, right and
wrong!". He just said, "um, yeah". He had to be thinking, "well, duh,
lady....that's why we go to school!"

Leslie in SC, who is glad this conversation came up (in other words, my kids
need a hug!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/27/06, Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...> wrote:
>
> Forgive me Ren, but I do not understand how a child can shove another child
> down the stairs and you expect your first instinct to be a hug. I do not
> mean to seem argumentative, I am genuinely curious.

It's only a reward if you think of hugs and loving your children as
rewards. I don't. I don't think that hugs have to be earned. "You
did well therefore I am going to hug you." That's the reaction of
most mainstream parents. Our family hugs all the time. We hug when
we wake, when we go to bed, when we leave the house, when we enter a
room, when we are standing next to each other, when we have the desire
for a physical connection with another person. Hugs are not something
that you get when you are good.

When Emily was 2-ish she would have these huge melting "temper
tantrums" (which we eventually found out was related to food
additives). During that time she would get so worked up about
something that she would literally melt screaming and crying. She was
unable to even voice what had upset her. I found the only way to help
her was just to hold her and hold her and hold her until she finally
could calm down. At the beginning it was hard because I truly was
having to force myself to hold/hug her after she had made a huge mess,
broken something, or been physically aggressive towards someone. I
wasn't happy with her during those periods because she wasn't behaving
well. But I held her anyway. Sometimes she would fight me at the
beginning because she didn't want me to hold her. I ended up with
many bruises and scratches (and once a pair of broken glasses) from
holding her. Eventually she got to where she would come to me (a safe
space) when she would feel herself getting out of control. It really
didn't take that long either, just a few weeks.

We tend to associate hugs with love. We don't hug people we don't
know or don't like. So why would you deny love to a child you love
even though they have done something that makes you unhappy? Do you
stop loving them then? No. But when you deny them love (and
generally when someone acts poorly they usually need love/hugs more
than ever) you are punishing them.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 28, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Leslie530@... wrote:

> As I was reading this, I started thinking that the majority of
> people (at
> least people I come across in my everyday life at the store, the
> park, etc)seem
> to ONLY engage with their kids in a reward/punishment reaction.
> When the
> child does something "good" they squeal and clap their hands, or
> say "it's
> about time" (which is a disguised punishment) and we all know what
> they do when
> the child does something "bad".

And there is more to it than this. Thinking that kids respond
primarily to reward and punishment is thinking of them as animals who
need training. It is an insult. It feels like being manipulated. It
takes away a person's inner core, inner sense of self-determination.

This has become conventional wisdom - kids need praise and stickers
to induce them to do things and "negative reinforcement" to stop them
from doing things.

Not true.

They need experience, information, love, and support. They really do
not need external rewards or punishments imposed on them.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>Well, I'm not Ren, and I don't play her on TV,

:-) thanks for your response just the same, Marji

>there is a tape called "Peaceful Parenting." It's a tape of a talk
that Sandra Dodd and Richard Pr....ski (sorry 'bout that!) did at a
conference some years ago. I've listened to it several times and
I've since given it away.

I would be interested in acquiring this tape if anyone has one to lend my
way?

>There are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, we do not know
what is in someone else's heart, and if we try to assume we run the
risk of misjudging a person.

agreed

>I think that malicious acts are rarer
in little kids than folks in our society would have us believe.

I've seen some scary things.

>I
think that things can get out of hand and can *look* that way, but ~
and this is just a hunch on my part, nothing scientific ~ I think
that most of these *malicious* acts are just mistakes or accidents
that get out of hand.

I would be willing to consider that they are more so ignorance or poor
habituation, yes, but I do not see a deliberate choice as an accident. For
example, Jalen made the choice to shove his sister, that was no accident. I
can see that her falling down the stairs was an accident. I do agree that
making the choice to shove her in the first place was a mistake.

>Second, if you think back to when you were little, you probably made
a lot of mistakes.

Heh, still do!

>Some were inconsequential and some may have been
serious. But, they were mistakes, and learning machines that we are,
making mistakes is one of the ways we learn (although sometimes we
have to keep making the same mistake before we get it).

agreed

> I'm guessing
that you were probably judged rather harshly for some of your
mistakes. (Some kids are judged harshly for all of their
mistakes.)

Yes

> And, you may have judged yourself rather harshly for
some, if not all, of your mistakes.

indeed

>I don't know about you, but when
I feel I'm being judge harshly or judged at all, a lot of not-so-good
thoughts and feelings arise. I feel defensive

Yes to all of this

>and I also may feel
very angry at the victim.

No to this

Things get skewed and I don't see things properly.

yes to this

>Now, imagine someone showing you, a little kid, compassion and
understanding at a time when you are judging yourself
harshly. That's angelic. And, it works wonders!

yes, that would be great

>I can imagine that if Ren had railed and ranted and punished Jalen
for his *mistake*, he would have become defensive and perhaps even
angry at Sierra, the victim of his mistake.

I do not get this. Surely he understands she did not shove herself down the
stairs? And I did not suggest someone ought to rail or rant against the
child.

> Inwardly, he would take
on and internalize all the terrible feelings he would have about the
incident and perhaps the terrible things that we said about him.

Yes, sadly.

> How
can a person with a mindset like that gain anything positive from his
experience? But, by being shown compassion at a time when he needed
it most, *he* could show compassion. That's such a huge thing! And,
that's learning.

I agree with showing compassion but I also think disapproval ought to be
shown. Like this is not ok. This is not what we do. Followed up by a
brief discussion of how to make better choices next time.

>The thing is, it's hard for us to make the compassionate response our
default response in times of extreme stress.

exactly

> But, that's something
to move towards, and that's covered beautifully on that tape. If you
can get a copy of it, it will light up your world!

I must admit, this is exactly what I have been trying to accomplish as a
mother without even realizing there was a tape. No wonder it is taking all
this time, and offering a hug following a poor choice probably would have
been a few more years off! LOL. Seriously, I would like to hear the tape.

>Compassion is not a reward.

i agree but it is still hard for me to be instinctively compassionate
towards someone who has been unkind.

> The trick is to let go of the concepts
of "rewards" and "punishments."

But life is both rewarding and punishing. For example, he may have been
punished by sierra breaking her neck and dying. Is it not better that we
help them understand the natural flow of positive and negative consequences
before it comes to something like that?

>Jalen wasn't being rewarded; he
needed a hug right then, and Ren was able to find the compassion
within herself to give Jalen what he needed. Jalen needed that hug
just as much as Sierra did.

I get that now. Thank you.

>I can understand that. But, the more you make the choice to be more
compassionate in your responses, the closer you move to having
compassion be your instinctual response.

I agree and I work at this daily.

>It helps to acknowledge that every experience is one that we all~wee
ones and old ones~can learn and grow from.

Acknowledged

>Jalen had a powerful
learning experience today, and because he didn't have to waste his
time and energy feeling mean and defensive and angry at the world, he
will be able to absorb it and grow from it.

yes, I agree with this but here is a totally honest account of how I would
likely have reacted had this happened in my house today:

I would have ranted and railed (I am not proud to admit this, but I am being
honest) at the pusher and given very disapproving looks. I would have sent
them off to think about what they had done and I would have tended to the
injured child. After I had time to calm down I would have gone to the
pusher and done my best to talk calmly. I would have apologized for my
panicked outburst and explained I still need work at controlling my
instinctive reactions. I would have asked them about their choice and if
they felt they would have done anything differently next time. When this
little "talk" was over I would have hugged them then and asked them to
please apologize to their sibling. I am sharing this candid response to
show that my first reaction would not be to run over and hug the pusher. I
would feel quite angry at the choice he made and I would have a hard time
showing any compassion until I calmed down and made sure the one at the
bottom of the stairs was ok.

>I hope that helps a little.

it helps a lot, actually. After reading your email and thinking more about
this I tried it out. My ds/4 was in a very uncharacteristically angry mood.
He was pouting and swatting at his siblings over a movie choice or something
(ie: he was just over-tired). I went over to him and held his swatting arms
down as I hugged him. At first he tried to swat at me twice. I said
something like, "please don't swat at mama. Please let me hug you" and he
immediately melted into me. He had a good cry and big long hug and then he
lifted his head to look at me and said, "mama please can I have a snack?" so
he was tired and hungry! Not a good combo. I was pleased how the hug
worked.

Rachell



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>As I was reading this, I started thinking that the majority of people (at
least people I come across in my everyday life at the store, the park,
etc)seem
to ONLY engage with their kids in a reward/punishment reaction. When the
child does something "good" they squeal and clap their hands, or say "it's
about time" (which is a disguised punishment) and we all know what they do
when
the child does something "bad". The rest of the time, the kids are more or
less ignored.

People on the more peaceful end of the parenting spectrum treat their
children more like people, and they use less and less of the rewards and
punishment. Their lives are not as divided up into good and bad, and the
children are
connected part of the family (not just noticed when good or bad).



So when Ren hugs Jalen, even after a bad choice, it isn't a reward because
Jalen does not live in an environment of rewards and punishment. He lives in

a world of "mommy loves me all the time, no matter what", not "mommy only
loves me when I'm good". In this context, it makes sense to hug him, to
reaffirm that unconditional love commitment especially when he is probably
feeling
a bit less than lovable for hurting someone.






It seems to me that many of you feel that if a person is not subscribed to a
"peaceful parenting" or unschooling philosophy they are just not as good
parents. That they do not love their children unconditionally and that they
are only concerned with rewarding good behaviors, punishing bad ones and
ignoring the children inbetween. Is this the case?

I am sorry if I seem defensive but I must admit I am having a hard time with
the vibe on this list. I think most people that homeschool their kids are
pretty plugged in to them, but the sense I get in here is that you are not
as plugged in as when you are a peaceful parenting unschooler. You see, I
came to these unschooling lists to explore and learn and I am happy to have
lists like these to do so but I am being very honest when I say that some of
you come across very strongly with a sort of elitism. i am sure you do not
mean for this to be the case, but I thought it was important for you to know
that you may be perceived this way occasionally by visitors/explorers like
myself. It may turn people off to your values and you may lose some
otherwise kindred.

Honestly yours,
Rachell



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>It's only a reward if you think of hugs and loving your children as
rewards. I don't. I don't think that hugs have to be earned. "You
did well therefore I am going to hug you." That's the reaction of
most mainstream parents.

All I suggested is that I find it hard to expect that our instinctive
reaction following a poor, unkind choice would be a hug.

>Our family hugs all the time. We hug when
we wake, when we go to bed, when we leave the house, when we enter a
room, when we are standing next to each other, when we have the desire
for a physical connection with another person.

Do you assume you are any different from me and my family in these ways?

>Hugs are not something
that you get when you are good.

Well to be totally honest, my kids gets hugs all the time even after they
have made a bad choice but it is only after we are clear that it was a bad
choice and that better choices need to made in the future. This is not
because I only love my children at times I hug them. I love my kids at all
times, hugs or no.

>When Emily was 2-ish she would have these huge melting "temper
tantrums" (which we eventually found out was related to food
additives).

I believe this.

>During that time she would get so worked up about
something that she would literally melt screaming and crying. She was
unable to even voice what had upset her. I found the only way to help
her was just to hold her and hold her and hold her until she finally
could calm down. At the beginning it was hard because I truly was
having to force myself to hold/hug her after she had made a huge mess,
broken something, or been physically aggressive towards someone. I
wasn't happy with her during those periods because she wasn't behaving
well. But I held her anyway. Sometimes she would fight me at the
beginning because she didn't want me to hold her. I ended up with
many bruises and scratches (and once a pair of broken glasses) from
holding her. Eventually she got to where she would come to me (a safe
space) when she would feel herself getting out of control. It really
didn't take that long either, just a few weeks.



Wow, this is exactly how things went with my ds/now 8. Around the time he
was 2 or 3 he just did not have the words to express himself so it all came
out emotionally/physically. It came down to the forced "hugging" with him
too as if I did not I was afraid he would seriously hurt someone or himself.
As he got older, these outbursts gradually extinguished. Now when he feels
badly at 8 years old, he will come and hug me. I guess I had not thought
about that until now. :-)


>We tend to associate hugs with love. We don't hug people we don't
know or don't like. So why would you deny love to a child you love
even though they have done something that makes you unhappy?

I would never deny my child love.

>Do you
stop loving them then? No. But when you deny them love (and
generally when someone acts poorly they usually need love/hugs more
than ever) you are punishing them.

To be honest, I do feel a child who deliberately hurts another child does
require a punishment or in the very least, disapproval. However, all
children deserve love at all times.



rachell


,___



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>And there is more to it than this. Thinking that kids respond
primarily to reward and punishment is thinking of them as animals who
need training. It is an insult. It feels like being manipulated. It
takes away a person's inner core, inner sense of self-determination.

This has become conventional wisdom - kids need praise and stickers
to induce them to do things and "negative reinforcement" to stop them
from doing things.

Not true.

They need experience, information, love, and support. They really do
not need external rewards or punishments imposed on them.

pam, my kiddos all get experience, information, love and support but they
also like praise and incentives. What is the harm in that?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

> Well to be totally honest, my kids gets hugs all the time even
after they
> have made a bad choice but it is only after we are clear that it
was a bad
> choice and that better choices need to made in the future. This
is not
> because I only love my children at times I hug them. I love my
kids at all
> times, hugs or no.

In the incident being discussed, Jalen obviously realized
immediately that he made a mistake and was shocked. I think there
might be more to discuss if a child did not realize this. Sometimes
children, esp. young ones, do not realize that they are hurting
someone else.

As far as making a choice, this is not always clear to people
either. My daughter has always had great difficulty controlling
impulses. Even at 11 years old, she cannot always see that her
actions are a choice. She very often acts before considering
consequences. Just telling someone that hitting or shoving is a bad
choice does not guarantee that it will never happen again.

-Christy

eriksmama2001

--- In [email protected], "Rachell Skerlec"
<panacea@...> wrote:
> To be honest, I do feel a child who deliberately hurts another
child does> require a punishment or in the very least,
disapproval. However, all> children deserve love at all times.


***I have found that it is more helpful to provide information about
the other person's experience, than to approve or disapprove of the
actions. I believe that children are inherently harmonious and
desire to be peaceful. There is a saying 'children hurt, when they
hurt'. It seems to me to be more effective to discern the underlying
needs when someone strikes out, rather than punishing anyone for
having some unmet need that they didn't know how to meet in a more
constructive (less hurtful) manner. Facilitating a child with
information about the effect of one's actions by helping to create
awareness of the experience of others (concrete observations), and
trying to understand the child's needs, and supportively seeking
alternative means to meet their needs seems much more constructive
and portable to model than punishments.

But, punishments are much quicker external modifications of
behavior. Unfortunately, they are not internally motivated
alterations in behavior; and therefore are not as effective when not
authoritatively imposed. However, the authoritative imposition of
punishments is NOT a very positive relationship building paradigm.
Nor does it make it easier to unschool as a trusted advisor.

Pat

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>

I would be willing to consider that they are more so ignorance or poor
habituation, yes, but I do not see a deliberate choice as an accident.
For
example, Jalen made the choice to shove his sister, that was no
accident. I
can see that her falling down the stairs was an accident. I do agree
that
making the choice to shove her in the first place was a mistake.

-=-=-=-

You don't KNOW it wasn't an accident. I just left Ren's house. The
stairs are in a funny place (IMO! <g>). Someone could easily have been
knocked down accidentally.

Plus, you're assuming the worst from the get-go. How about assuming
the BEST?!

-=-=-=-

>and I also may feel very angry at the victim.>

No to this

-=-=-=-=-

So you were angry with the victim FIRST?

And not AFTER the punishment?

-=-=-=-=-=-


I do not get this. Surely he understands she did not shove herself
down the
stairs? And I did not suggest someone ought to rail or rant against the
child.

-=-=-=-

Yet later in this post you DO say that *you* would have ranted and
railed.

"I would have ranted and railed (I am not proud to admit this, but I
am being
honest) at the pusher and given very disapproving looks. "

That's very typical parenting behavior---some would call it
instinctive. :-(

We'd just like for you to look at it in a different way. To see your
child as doing his *best* at all times.

-=-=-=-=-

> Inwardly, he would take
on and internalize all the terrible feelings he would have about the
incident and perhaps the terrible things that we said about him.

Yes, sadly.

-=-=-=--=

So how do you think a better way to approach it would be?

Hugs, maybe? <bwg>

-=-=-=-=-=-

> How
can a person with a mindset like that gain anything positive from his
experience? But, by being shown compassion at a time when he needed
it most, *he* could show compassion. That's such a huge thing! And,
that's learning.

I agree with showing compassion but I also think disapproval ought to
be
shown. Like this is not ok. This is not what we do. Followed up by a
brief discussion of how to make better choices next time.

-=-=-=-

Hugs FIRST!

Then discussion.

No one here is saying *not* to discuss what happened and to talk about
how Sierra was feeling. But Jalen was not trying to hurt Sierra.
Something got out of hand. I seriously doubt it was deliberate---and
it's best to *assume* that going in!

When we were there, Jalen got to playing too rough with Ben (my
husband). He was pretty wound up and was swinging his swimsuit and
struck Ben in the eye. Ben grabbed his arm and held him away. Jalen
went running to Ren because he was scared. We know it wasn't
deliberately done to hurt Ben---they were playing. But it got out of
hand, and Ben was hurt. Jalen went running to Ren, who hugged him until
he settled down.

Would it have been better for *any* of us for her to have shamed him
or punished him for accidently hurting Ben?

He got consoled, he avoided Ben for an hour or so! <G>, and everything
was fine in a bit.

-=-=-=-=-

>The thing is, it's hard for us to make the compassionate response our
default response in times of extreme stress.

exactly

-=-=-

Right---but it IS possible to make *better* responses each time.

-=-=-=-=-

> But, that's something
to move towards, and that's covered beautifully on that tape. If you
can get a copy of it, it will light up your world!

I must admit, this is exactly what I have been trying to accomplish as
a
mother without even realizing there was a tape. No wonder it is taking
all
this time, and offering a hug following a poor choice probably would
have
been a few more years off! LOL. Seriously, I would like to hear the
tape.

--=-=-=-=-

www.SandraDodd.com She'll tell you how to order.

--=-=-=-

>Compassion is not a reward.

i agree but it is still hard for me to be instinctively compassionate
towards someone who has been unkind.

-=-=-=-

Let's not look at it as being unkind. Let's look at it as an accident
or as not having the tools or experience to make a better decision.

-=-=-=-=-

> The trick is to let go of the concepts
of "rewards" and "punishments."

But life is both rewarding and punishing. For example, he may have been
punished by sierra breaking her neck and dying. Is it not better that
we
help them understand the natural flow of positive and negative
consequences
before it comes to something like that?


-=-=-

Right. *LIFE* is full of natural rewards and punishments. No need to
make up your own. Make the situation better *now*, and he'll understand
the natural flow because it IS natural.

-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Jalen had a powerful
learning experience today, and because he didn't have to waste his
time and energy feeling mean and defensive and angry at the world, he
will be able to absorb it and grow from it.

yes, I agree with this but here is a totally honest account of how I
would
likely have reacted had this happened in my house today:

I would have ranted and railed (I am not proud to admit this, but I am
being
honest) at the pusher and given very disapproving looks.

-=-=-=-

So you would have ranted and railed. Just slowing down a millisecond
and taking a deep breath can refocus and stop the yelling.

-=-=-=-=-

I would have sent them off to think about what they had done and I
would have tended to the
injured child.

-=-=-=-

Both children were needy at that point. Unfortunately there aren't
*two* of you. <g>

But "sending one off to think about what he did" is not as good as
saying, "As soon as I take care of Sierra, I'll come see you."

"Go away and think about what you've done," is pretty creepy. I think
many of us heard that once or twice as kids. Didn't work.

-=-=-=-

After I had time to calm down I would have gone to the
pusher and done my best to talk calmly. I would have apologized for my
panicked outburst and explained I still need work at controlling my
instinctive reactions.

-=-=--=-=-=-

Maybe the *child* needs work controlling himself too? Jalen *is* only
five! <g>

Breathe deeply FIRST before you say something you need to apologize
for. It gets easier and easier. I promise.

-=-=-=-

I would have asked them about their choice and if
they felt they would have done anything differently next time.

-=-=-=-

Maybe the mom could do this too? <g>

-=-=-=-=-

When this
little "talk" was over I would have hugged them then and asked them to
please apologize to their sibling.

-=-=-=-=-

HOT button! Making someone apologize. Yuck!

-=-=-=-=-

I am sharing this candid response to
show that my first reaction would not be to run over and hug the
pusher. I
would feel quite angry at the choice he made and I would have a hard
time
showing any compassion until I calmed down and made sure the one at the
bottom of the stairs was ok.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Sure. We understand. Most of us have been where you are. There IS a
better way though.

-=-=-=-


it helps a lot, actually. After reading your email and thinking more
about
this I tried it out. My ds/4 was in a very uncharacteristically angry
mood.
He was pouting and swatting at his siblings over a movie choice or
something
(ie: he was just over-tired). I went over to him and held his swatting
arms
down as I hugged him. At first he tried to swat at me twice. I said
something like, "please don't swat at mama. Please let me hug you" and
he
immediately melted into me. He had a good cry and big long hug and
then he
lifted his head to look at me and said, "mama please can I have a
snack?" so
he was tired and hungry! Not a good combo. I was pleased how the hug
worked.


-=-=-=-

Cool.

He wasn't really being mean or bad---he was not in control of himself
because he was tired and hungry. In time, he will be better able to
know when he's getting crabby that he's hungry or tired or both. Maybe
let him know that could be *why* he was acting out. *Assume* he's doing
the best that he can at all times. It'll be better for your
relationship!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

eriksmama2001

--- In [email protected], "Rachell Skerlec"
<panacea@...> wrote:

> pam, my kiddos all get experience, information, love and support but
they> also like praise and incentives. What is the harm in that?


***I am not Pam. Nor am I Alfie Kohn. :-) But you might find his
opinion and research fascinating. See his book "Punished By Rewards,
The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other
Bribes". It changed my life!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618001816/103-8194469-2018212?
v=glance&n=283155

Or, the Cliff Notes version: Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job":
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

Pat

Melissa

I wanted to add again. I understand the emotions that fly up,
especially when your protective mama instinct comes up. Regardless of
who the offender is, even one of your own children, if your child is
hurt you want to protect them.

Our daughter Breanna has autism. She has many many behaviors that are
not considered acceptable, and we have worked long and hard to
replace those behaviors with those that *are* acceptable. So instead
of hitting, using words, instead of kicking, walking away, instead of
screaming, finding mama for help. The worst thing that could happen
to her, if she hurts someone, is for someone's mom to come running up
and yelling. Because at that point, Bre has lost focus on what just
happened, and now her focus is totally on the person yelling at her.
She's already emotionally unstable, and someone is hurting HER
aurally, emotionally, etc. There is no chance that we can revisit
what just happened and replay it with a better ending. She has
learned nothing from the situation, except that you cannot trust the
world. To her it seemed reasonable at the time. To have someone with
an irrational (to her) response come up, completely negates any
learning she has done on how to treat people.

The longer we live with her, the more I see this play out in children
who do NOT have disabilities. It's much more subtle because other
children have the capability to hide emotions. But the damage done is
no less, and the lessons are still lost.

If a person can yell at someone, then apologize and speak nicely and
explained what happened, why not just skip all the meanness to begin
with, and go straight to what went wrong?

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 29, 2006, at 3:29 PM, eriksmama2001 wrote:

> --- In [email protected], "Rachell Skerlec"
> <panacea@...> wrote:
> > To be honest, I do feel a child who deliberately hurts another
> child does> require a punishment or in the very least,
> disapproval. However, all> children deserve love at all times.
>
> .
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 12:53 6/29/2006, Rachell wrote:

>:-) thanks for your response just the same, Marji

You're most welcome!


> >there is a tape called "Peaceful Parenting." It's a tape of a talk
>that Sandra Dodd and Richard Pr....ski (sorry 'bout that!) did at a
>conference some years ago. I've listened to it several times and
>I've since given it away.
>
>I would be interested in acquiring this tape if anyone has one to lend my
>way?

Err... I should have provided this link in my first response to you,
but I'm a lazy bum! Here it is now:

http://sandradodd.com/tapes

> >I can imagine that if Ren had railed and ranted and punished Jalen
>for his *mistake*, he would have become defensive and perhaps even
>angry at Sierra, the victim of his mistake.
>
>I do not get this. Surely he understands she did not shove herself down the
>stairs?

Rachell, I'd bet that, even if he did this in anger, his "choice" to
push Sierra was not a conscious, calculated one. However, having met
Ren's fantastic kids, I'd bet it was purely accidental, and that's
what I'd always want to assume first, anyway. I prefer to assume the
best in folks first, not the worst. Also, we know from Ren's
telling, that he did not feel good about what had happened, that he
felt responsible--even at his tender age, and Ren's comforting him
was appropriate and had a good effect on all of them.

>I agree with showing compassion but I also think disapproval ought to be
>shown. Like this is not ok. This is not what we do. Followed up by a
>brief discussion of how to make better choices next time.

See, but I think he was already aware of that. Put yourself in his
shoes for a second. Imagine that you made a mistake; let's say you
absentmindedly picked up a hot pot from the stove without a mitt and
you burned your hand. Your husband walks in at the moment of the
burn and says, "Rachell, you shouldn't pick up hot pots without a
mitt." Did you really need him to tell you that? How would that
make you feel? I'd probably want to slug him, myself. True, in
*this* example, you've hurt yourself. But it would still apply if
you accidentally hurt somebody else, say you were distracted in the
supermarket and you bumped into an elderly lady in the aisle with
your cart and really hurt her. Do you really need to hear your
husband saying, "You should really watch where you're going; we don't
crash into people in the supermarket"? Again, I'd have a hard time
not saying something utterly sarcastic and cutting to my
beloved! I'd do better with his compassion than his telling me
something I already knew. I think Jalen already knew that
accidentally causing someone else to fall down the stairs is not the
thing to do, and he clearly already regretted it!

>I must admit, this is exactly what I have been trying to accomplish as a
>mother without even realizing there was a tape. No wonder it is taking all
>this time, and offering a hug following a poor choice probably would have
>been a few more years off! LOL. Seriously, I would like to hear the tape.

I hope she still has 'em. If I hadn't already parted with mine, I'd
definitely loan it to you!

>i agree but it is still hard for me to be instinctively compassionate
>towards someone who has been unkind.

Of course! We're all works-in-progress! ;-)

>But life is both rewarding and punishing. For example, he may have been
>punished by sierra breaking her neck and dying. Is it not better that we
>help them understand the natural flow of positive and negative consequences
>before it comes to something like that?

I would say that life has it's own *natural* rewards and
punishments. I would like to help my son celebrate the natural
rewards he gets from life, and heal and learn and profit from the
natural punishments. Creating artificial rewards and punishments
feels counterintuitive to me in our unschooling, life-learning world. Ya know?

>it helps a lot, actually. After reading your email and thinking more about
>this I tried it out. My ds/4 was in a very uncharacteristically angry mood.
>He was pouting and swatting at his siblings over a movie choice or something
>(ie: he was just over-tired). I went over to him and held his swatting arms
>down as I hugged him. At first he tried to swat at me twice. I said
>something like, "please don't swat at mama. Please let me hug you" and he
>immediately melted into me. He had a good cry and big long hug and then he
>lifted his head to look at me and said, "mama please can I have a snack?" so
>he was tired and hungry! Not a good combo. I was pleased how the hug
>worked.

Well, that gave me a coupla goosebumps, Rachell! I appreciate your
honesty and candor! I really hope you can get that tape! You'll
really love it!



~Marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>You don't KNOW it wasn't an accident. I just left Ren's house. The
stairs are in a funny place (IMO! <g>). Someone could easily have been
knocked down accidentally.



I don't know anything at all. I was not there and I was not any of the
parties involved. I am simply referring to the story as Ren shared it.

Please re-read what I said and you will see that I do not claim to KNOW
anything at all. I said that the shoving seemed to be a deliberate choice
to put his hands on her. I also said I am willing to believe he did not
intend to shove her down the stairs and that that part was an accident. I
also said that I could see how his shoving her in the first place was a
mistake. (By the way, Ren, please forgive me if it seems I am making your
poor Jalen out to be a monster, that is not my intention at all, I am merely
using your situation you shared as an example to illustrate my questions).


>Plus, you're assuming the worst from the get-go. How about assuming
the BEST?!

I am not sure how I am supposed to assume a person putting their hands on
another person with force any differently that I am telling you. This is
honestly how I feel. I could lie in order to fall in line and be widely
accepted. I am genuinely trying to understand these notions.

>So you were angry with the victim FIRST?
And not AFTER the punishment?

i was angry at them for whatever i was angry at them for initially, but not
for getting in trouble for hurting them. Hurting them would have been my
choice and I felt I deserved punishment for it.

>Yet later in this post you DO say that *you* would have ranted and
railed.



Yes. I did post that later because I am being HONEST about me. But what
does that have to do with anything? Plenty of times people do NOT react
with a hug first, but also do NOT react with ranting or railing. That was
my point. In fact, most times I do not react first with ranting or railing
and many times in fact a hug is involved AFTERWARD. In a situation such as
this I honestly could imagine myself ranting and railing just as Ren said
she did. That was why my whole question came up in the first place.. Why
would we EXPECT ourselves to instinctively react with a hug? (please do not
feel as if you need to re-explain this concept, I think I've gotten it now,
I am just re-listing her for clarification's sake as some people seem to
think I am making hypocritical statements).

>That's very typical parenting behavior---some would call it
instinctive. :-(



An instinct is something you do without deliberating. So for me in that
type of a case and for Ren in that one example and for many others all the
time it is called instinctive because it is. I am not saying it is a happy
thing, or something to be proud of, or even something that can NEVER be
changed. I am just arguing the fact that it is instinct. Protect the weak,
defend the underdog, prosecute the perpetrator. You do not have to agree
with me, I am only basing this on my realm of experience and do not claim
for it to be word of fact for all folks.

>We'd just like for you to look at it in a different way. To see your
child as doing his *best* at all times.

but why do you think YOU do and *I* don't?


>So how do you think a better way to approach it would be?

Hugs, maybe? <bwg>



Hey, I like hugs! As far as I can figure right now (subject to revision at
any time LOL) is that I would do my best to respond as calmly as possible,
apologize for the times I don't, discuss the situation either way and how it
does not make a person bad or good but how its all about choices and how
next time we need to have better choices prepared. I would expect they
would apologize to the one they hurt just as I apologized to them for my
ranting (if I did indeed rant at that instance) and I would then be hit with
an INSTICT to hug.

>Hugs FIRST!

Then discussion.



Again, I have NO PROBLEM with this. I am merely admitting that it is not
instinct to me and I am not sure how to expect it to be. Marji has given me
the best idea to consider thus far in that the more we consciously decide to
react in ta certain way (ex: hugs first) then the more possible it is that
this will EVENTUALLY become our typical response. I see it as a habituated
response, not necessarily instinctive.. Then again, why is my instinctive
reaction the way it is now? Is it truly all instinct or might be more
realistic to consider I have been habituated to react this way in the first
place.. Ooo the web gets complicated ;)

>No one here is saying *not* to discuss what happened and to talk about
how Sierra was feeling. But Jalen was not trying to hurt Sierra.
Something got out of hand. I seriously doubt it was deliberate---and
it's best to *assume* that going in!

again, please go back and read what I actually typed. I never said I felt
he meant to hurt her deliberately. What I did say is that he did seem to
make the conscious choice to put his hands on her. Maybe it would help this
example to know why.

>Would it have been better for *any* of us for her to have shamed him
or punished him for accidently hurting Ben?

ok, being totally honest again (and I can be because I have a wildish ds/8
who often plays a little too rough) this is how I probably would have
reacted:

I would have asked for clarification of what happened. Once it was clear it
was a total accident that occurred whilst rough housing I would have
reminded him to cool his jets a little and apologize to the one he
accidentally hurt. That's it, no ranting, no railing and maybe no hugging
even. Of course if he was frightened enough by something to come running to
me for a hug or security I would have happily provided that too, and then
followed up with clarification, etc.

>He got consoled, he avoided Ben for an hour or so! <G>, and everything
was fine in a bit.

why did he need consolation? I want to make sure I understand. And as far as
avoiding Ben for an hour, I am sorry but I don't dig that. He hurt Ben
albeit accidentally and I would have rather he apologized genuinely and then
interacted as normal.

>Right---but it IS possible to make *better* responses each time.



I never said differently :-)

>www.SandraDodd.com She'll tell you how to order.



Thanks.

>Let's not look at it as being unkind. Let's look at it as an accident
or as not having the tools or experience to make a better decision.

ok, I guess I can't do that. The shoving was not an accident. Shoving is
unkind. I agree with experience comes the possibility of making better
decisions but I do find it necessary to let them know right off that it is
not ok.

>Right. *LIFE* is full of natural rewards and punishments. No need to
make up your own. Make the situation better *now*, and he'll understand
the natural flow because it IS natural.

what did I make up?

>So you would have ranted and railed. Just slowing down a millisecond
and taking a deep breath can refocus and stop the yelling.



Yes, I have already been learning this in my own life before this ever came
up here. I guess that is why it made me ask Ren the question in the first
place.. If our first instinct is to react one way, how can we be
disappointed with ourselves for reacting according to instinct and not
according to our ideal, ie: a hug. I guess this is a very timely topic for
me. Maybe it is because i have steep stairs and fall from these could be
deadly, maybe I am misinterpreting the gravity of the potential injury, but
I honestly do think I would have yelled and I would have needed to calm
myself before even being able to talk to the pusher let alone hug them.



That being said, I am continuously trying to make kinder, gentler choices
all the time myself.

>Both children were needy at that point. Unfortunately there aren't
*two* of you. <g>



Yes, but physical injuries might require more immediate attention and I
would therefore do that first.

>But "sending one off to think about what he did" is not as good as
saying, "As soon as I take care of Sierra, I'll come see you."



I would have more than likely (based on previous experiences) said something
like, "X go to your room right now. I want you to think about the choice
you just made and I will be in to talk to you once I know that Y is ok."
Sometimes X will ask immediately, "May I please help you check Y and I would
say, of course." And then we would Check Y together and set Y up with
something to occupy her/him whilst X and I have our talk.

>"Go away and think about what you've done," is pretty creepy. I think
many of us heard that once or twice as kids. Didn't work.

ok so now I am creepy.let's start a list :-) .for the record I never said
"go away"

>Maybe the *child* needs work controlling himself too? Jalen *is* only
five! <g>

well obviously then yes. I also thought he was older, I thought Ren said
her son was 15. Maybe I am mixing up her clan. :-)

>Breathe deeply FIRST before you say something you need to apologize
for. It gets easier and easier. I promise.



Gosh I hope so.

>Maybe the mom could do this too? <g>



This mom ALWAYS does. This mom is pretty quick like that ;)

>HOT button! Making someone apologize. Yuck!



I don't get this.

>Sure. We understand. Most of us have been where you are. There IS a
better way though.



Honestly, for me, I don't think I would change a thing except the
ranting/railing I freely admitted to and said I was not proud of. I will
also try the hug firs thing more often, experiementally of course :-)

Oh and the apology thing, non-negotiable for me.

>He wasn't really being mean or bad---he was not in control of himself
because he was tired and hungry. In time, he will be better able to
know when he's getting crabby that he's hungry or tired or both. Maybe
let him know that could be *why* he was acting out. *Assume* he's doing
the best that he can at all times. It'll be better for your
relationship!

see, I think that it is ok to have bad moments because you have reasons,
(hungry, tired, ill, bad day, etc.) but I really think it is unfair to treat
others unkindly because of it. I am more apt to accept this sort of thing
from a toddler or young child who is still learning but as they get older I
have a harder time with it. For example, it would have been harder for me
to just go and hug my ds/8 or my dd/12 if they were the ones swatting at
each other, I would have been like, "um, excuse me. I see that you are
tired and in disagreement but it is NOT ok to put your hands on one another"
etc. Does that make sense?



Kelly, I must say I really appreciate the time you and others have taken to
enlighten me. I do not mean to seem resistant, I am just being very honest.

Thanks again,

Rachell



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>***I have found that it is more helpful to provide information about
the other person's experience, than to approve or disapprove of the
actions. I believe that children are inherently harmonious and
desire to be peaceful. There is a saying 'children hurt, when they
hurt'. It seems to me to be more effective to discern the underlying
needs when someone strikes out, rather than punishing anyone for
having some unmet need that they didn't know how to meet in a more
constructive (less hurtful) manner. Facilitating a child with
information about the effect of one's actions by helping to create
awareness of the experience of others (concrete observations), and
trying to understand the child's needs, and supportively seeking
alternative means to meet their needs seems much more constructive
and portable to model than punishments.

I could not agree with you more.

>But, punishments are much quicker external modifications of
behavior. Unfortunately, they are not internally motivated
alterations in behavior; and therefore are not as effective when not
authoritatively imposed. However, the authoritative imposition of
punishments is NOT a very positive relationship building paradigm.
Nor does it make it easier to unschool as a trusted advisor.



I think I agree with this for the most part as well, despite not being an
unschooler, but it does raise a few questions for me.

To make it easy, I will limit it to:

Do you never punish or never reward?

If your child went above and beyond something for no reason would you not
recognize or reward that action?

EX: after a stressful day, you come home to find your oldest child has taken
it upon themselves to do ALL the laundry, for no real reason other than to
be of help to you. Would you not praise and thank her immensely and suggest
you 2 go to a movie together as a little gift to her? (NOT that you never
point out even little things they do with praise or that you never go to
movies together for no reason at all, because you do - this is just an
example).

If your child deliberately ignored a responsibility, would you not punish
the child accordingly?
EX: your child's pet hamster died because they repeatedly neglected to
feed/water it. Now they want another one. Obviously the death of the
hamster was a natural consequence/punishment in and of itself but allowing
them to get another?

Thanks for entertaining my questions.

Rachell



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>In the incident being discussed, Jalen obviously realized
immediately that he made a mistake and was shocked. I think there
might be more to discuss if a child did not realize this. Sometimes
children, esp. young ones, do not realize that they are hurting
someone else.



I only just realized how young Jalen is and for me age is a factor in my
tolerance with behaviors.


>As far as making a choice, this is not always clear to people
either. My daughter has always had great difficulty controlling
impulses. Even at 11 years old, she cannot always see that her
actions are a choice. She very often acts before considering
consequences. Just telling someone that hitting or shoving is a bad
choice does not guarantee that it will never happen again.


oh I agree, Christy but I still feel it is vital to reiterate this whenever
necessary.



Rachell





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>If a person can yell at someone, then apologize and speak nicely and
explained what happened, why not just skip all the meanness to begin
with, and go straight to what went wrong?

Melissa, I understand what you are saying about your child's special needs.
I would never even get verbal with someone else's child ever unless there
was direct danger involved and no parent around to intervene other than me.


But as far as why not just skip the meanness, I was referring to the
INSTINCTIVE first reaction. Sadly, sometimes it includes ranting/railing.
Obviously that is not preferable and in my case I do all I can to get a grip
over it, but I think it is important for folks to understand that it is not
as easy as "just skipping" it for all folks.

Rachell



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

Another one for my library list.. Geez, I thought you unschool people were
not into giving assignments! LOL



~Rachell


"So shines a good deed in a weary world."
<http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/william_shakespeare/> William Shakespeare

_____


From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of eriksmama2001
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Breaking news:



--- In unschoolingbasics@ <mailto:unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Rachell Skerlec"
<panacea@...> wrote:

> pam, my kiddos all get experience, information, love and support but
they> also like praise and incentives. What is the harm in that?

***I am not Pam. Nor am I Alfie Kohn. :-) But you might find his
opinion and research fascinating. See his book "Punished By Rewards,
The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other
Bribes". It changed my life!

http://www.amazon
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0618001816/103-8194469-2018212?>
com/gp/product/0618001816/103-8194469-2018212?
v=glance&n=283155

Or, the Cliff Notes version: Five Reasons to Stop Saying "Good Job":
http://www.alfiekoh <http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm>
n.org/parenting/gj.htm

Pat





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachell Skerlec

>Rachell, I'd bet that, even if he did this in anger, his "choice" to
push Sierra was not a conscious, calculated one.

Again, I was thinking he was 15.

>Also, we know from Ren's
telling, that he did not feel good about what had happened, that he
felt responsible--even at his tender age

Would you mind referring me to the part where she makes it clear that he
felt responsible?

>See, but I think he was already aware of that. Put yourself in his
shoes for a second. Imagine that you made a mistake; let's say you
absentmindedly picked up a hot pot from the stove without a mitt and
you burned your hand. Your husband walks in at the moment of the
burn and says, "Rachell, you shouldn't pick up hot pots without a
mitt." Did you really need him to tell you that? How would that
make you feel? I'd probably want to slug him, myself. True, in
*this* example, you've hurt yourself. But it would still apply if
you accidentally hurt somebody else, say you were distracted in the
supermarket and you bumped into an elderly lady in the aisle with
your cart and really hurt her. Do you really need to hear your
husband saying, "You should really watch where you're going; we don't
crash into people in the supermarket"? Again, I'd have a hard time
not saying something utterly sarcastic and cutting to my
beloved! I'd do better with his compassion than his telling me
something I already knew.

Well again, you are talking about adults who *ought* to know better but how
mant times do adults even need help seeing right from wrong? I think this
is our job as parents to help make sure the kiddos are getting the point.

>I think Jalen already knew that
accidentally causing someone else to fall down the stairs is not the
thing to do, and he clearly already regretted it!

how did he express that he clearly regretted it. Help me see.

> Creating artificial rewards and punishments
feels counterintuitive to me in our unschooling, life-learning world. Ya
know?

I really *don't* know as I am not an unschooler and now I am not so sure I
would make a good one anyway. It is intuitive to me to be more of a
hands-on teacher/guide for my kiddos. We use curriculums, some of which we
really, really enjoy, others of which we enjoy somewhat less but feel they
will provide benefit in the long run, ex: ds/8 and reading/writing.
Actually, I have found him many times now hidden under the blankets at night
with a flashlight reading his favorite books, this is a real change for him
and I attribute it to my perseverance in trying all kinds of new books until
I found some that he could latch onto and find a liking for. I am confident
if I had left it up to him totally he would still be thinking he "hates"
reading. Now he tells me, "wow, Mom you were right. Books are soo cool. I
hope I live long enough to read most of them!"

>I appreciate your
honesty and candor!

I sincerely hope so. :-)

rachell



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

--- In [email protected], "Rachell Skerlec"
<panacea@...> wrote:
> I think I agree with this for the most part as well, despite not
being an> unschooler, but it does raise a few questions for me.
>
> To make it easy, I will limit it to:
>
> Do you never punish or never reward?

***Nope. Never punish. Never reward. Not to my knowledge, not by
design; it is anathema to my beliefs about compassionate relating. I
don't believe that I have ever punished or rewarded my husband or
cats, sister, mother, or friends either though.

>
> If your child went above and beyond something for no reason would
you not> recognize or reward that action?

***Since I have no expected minimum (or acceptable) level of
action/behavior for our son; therefore, it is impossible for him to
go "above and beyond". Also, I believe any action (by anyone),
whether experienced positively or negatively by me, is not "for no
reason". If/when our son helps me in anyway, I appreciate his
contributions and I am grateful for his *choice* to participate to
the limit that he desires.

>
> EX: after a stressful day, you come home to find your oldest child
has taken> it upon themselves to do ALL the laundry, for no real
reason other than to> be of help to you. Would you not praise and
thank her immensely and suggest> you 2 go to a movie together as a
little gift to her? (NOT that you never> point out even little
things they do with praise or that you never go to> movies together
for no reason at all, because you do - this is just an> example).

***I would espouse my sincere and significant appreciation if my dh
did this! Just as I would espouse my sincere and significant
appreciation if our son did this! But, going to the movies is
completely independent. Having the laundry done could create more
time availability for me to go to the movies with dh (or ds) (or to
do something alone) if a huge pile of laundry were done.

>
> If your child deliberately ignored a responsibility, would you not
punish> the child accordingly?> EX: your child's pet hamster died
because they repeatedly neglected to> feed/water it. Now they want
another one. Obviously the death of the> hamster was a natural
consequence/punishment in and of itself but allowing> them to get
another?

***Well, animal care in our home is a shared
responsibility/enjoyment. We all just contribute and discuss if the
care has been provided. Whoever gets up first (or goes to bed last)
lets the cats in/out and makes sure they have food and water.
Usually, that is dh. But, ds LOVES to do it and wants us to wait for
him to awaken. When dh is out of town, ds and I make sure that the
cats are in/out and fed. Same with the frogs, fish, snake, cat
litter, cleaning aquariums, plant care, etc. It isn't a chore. (We
don't have assigned "chores".) Animal care is a joy. I guess we just
model that attitude and it is.

Same with taking out the trash, doing the dishes, watering the
plants, getting the mail, doing the laundry, cleaning the kitchen,
cleaning the bathrooms, picking up toys, going grocery shopping,
etc. We do these activities joyfully for the benefit of our family,
together. Ds LOVES taking the trash can up and down the driveway,
helping to unload the dishwasher, "washing" dishes, watering the
plants, getting the mail, "helping" with the laundry, cleaning the
table and counters, setting the table, etc. Ds isn't keen on
cleaning the bathrooms (none of us are crazy about this); but we
make it fun. Dh likes it done more than I like to do it. So, dh
usually does it. And picking up toys isn't an issue for us.
Generally, I do it, because dh likes a path to walk in ds's room and
ds likes them organized. Dh or I do the grocery shopping alone
mostly. I LOVE to go alone or with a friend. Ds used to enjoy it,
and now he prefers to go with dh. We just do it without a struggle.



Pat

marji

At 18:25 6/29/2006, you wrote:

>how did he express that he clearly regretted it. Help me see.

Here (sort of) where Ren typed: "I really think he was joking around
and didn't realize how close she
was to the stairs, because he looked shocked."

And here (a little more so) when she typed: "He was very sorry."

Anyway, that was my interpretation of the thing. Maybe I'm misinterpreting?

>I really *don't* know as I am not an unschooler and now I am not so sure I
>would make a good one anyway. It is intuitive to me to be more of a
>hands-on teacher/guide for my kiddos. We use curriculums, some of which we
>really, really enjoy, others of which we enjoy somewhat less but feel they
>will provide benefit in the long run, ex: ds/8 and reading/writing.
>Actually, I have found him many times now hidden under the blankets at night
>with a flashlight reading his favorite books, this is a real change for him
>and I attribute it to my perseverance in trying all kinds of new books until
>I found some that he could latch onto and find a liking for. I am confident
>if I had left it up to him totally he would still be thinking he "hates"
>reading. Now he tells me, "wow, Mom you were right. Books are soo cool. I
>hope I live long enough to read most of them!"

Sounds to me like things have been working out nicely for you and
your young'uns with your current homeschooling regimen. I'm just
curious to know (which, of course, you certainly don't have to
answer) what's moving you to check out an unschooling basics list.


>> Creating artificial rewards and punishments
feels counterintuitive to me in our unschooling, life-learning world. Ya
know?<<


Anyway, the reason I said that was this, and I'll try to be brief
('cause I'm *supposed* to be working!). Folks who unschool glean
learning from the things they do in the real world. My son loves to
play Yu-Gi-Oh duels, and he has learned to read and to calculate from
doing this and other things, too. He has learned and is learning to
read and write because it's required of him so he can play World of
Warcraft. He needs to ~ and wants to ~ know how to manage his money
so he can get the things he wants. He gains musical (mathematical)
concepts because he likes to play the guitar. He mastered telling
time because it became important to him to know what time it was so
he wouldn't miss a favorite TV show or he wanted to know how long
before a friend was coming over. In the same way that my son learns
these things from doing what he loves and living his real life rather
than having lessons shoved down his throat (and I'm not implying that
*you* shove lessons down your kids' throats), he learns about life by
living it and interacting with other folks in a real way. Of course,
I am with him through all this and we talk a lot about what goes on,
his impressions, my impressions, what's important, what's not, all
kinds of things that run the gamut from the mundane to the mystical
(and, I'm not saying that only unschoolers do this, by the way; I'm
sure you probably talk to your kids like this, too). Anyway, I see
punishments and rewards as contrived much in the same way that math
worksheets and vocabulary/spelling lists are contrived. I just
couldn't bring myself to impose punishments on him believing what I believe.

Interestingly, my son, now 11 years old, is very polite, very
concerned about doing the right thing in the world, has no problems
taking responsibility for what he does, is very, very honest with me,
and is very loving and joyful. He knows a lot of more conventionally
parented kids, and he is very aware that his life is quite different
from those of other kids he knows. He expresses a great deal of
gratitude to me and to his dad. He's not perfect, but neither am I,
of course, and we are both learning all the time together. He's also
aware that not being perfect (he actually said this to me recently)
is a good position to be in because making mistakes is a great way to learn.

Anway, I don't know if that clears things up or muddles them up more,
but I'm tired and I really should be working now.

~Marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 17:58 6/29/2006, you wrote:

>To make it easy, I will limit it to:
>
>Do you never punish or never reward?

No, I have never punished my son or rewarded him. We have celebrated
milestones and achievements together, the way loved ones do for each other.

>If your child went above and beyond something for no reason would you not
>recognize or reward that action?
>
>EX: after a stressful day, you come home to find your oldest child has taken
>it upon themselves to do ALL the laundry, for no real reason other than to
>be of help to you. Would you not praise and thank her immensely and suggest
>you 2 go to a movie together as a little gift to her? (NOT that you never
>point out even little things they do with praise or that you never go to
>movies together for no reason at all, because you do - this is just an
>example).

I'd show heartfelt, sincere gratitude to anyone who has helped me
out, especially of their own accord, but "praise" and
"reward"? No. I'd hope that folks would do the same for me.

>If your child deliberately ignored a responsibility, would you not punish
>the child accordingly?
>EX: your child's pet hamster died because they repeatedly neglected to
>feed/water it. Now they want another one. Obviously the death of the
>hamster was a natural consequence/punishment in and of itself but allowing
>them to get another?

Well, this probably isn't a good example for me because I would not
permit an animal to die of neglect in my house!!! I wouldn't heap
that kind of responsibility on any person who was not able to handle
it. If he wanted to be the primary caregiver, I would be right there
with him, ready to support him in anyway I could. As an adult, I
would ultimately assume the primary responsibility for any animal we
take in, as I do for our two kitty companions. To me, animals are
not disposable educational tools. They are living beings for whom I
have taken responsibility and I will not shirk on that by unloading
my responsibility onto someone who may or may not be ready for it.


_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._

Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List


"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>


I don't know anything at all. I was not there and I was not any of the
parties involved. I am simply referring to the story as Ren shared it.

--=-=-=-

But we try to assume that it was an accident.

We don't really *know* either, but we'll respond as if it were an
accident.

-=-=-==-

I am not sure how I am supposed to assume a person putting their hands
on
another person with force any differently that I am telling you. This
is
honestly how I feel. I could lie in order to fall in line and be widely
accepted. I am genuinely trying to understand these notions.

--=-=-=-=-

But if you assume it was accidental FIRST, then it's easier to respond
that way. If you assume it was deliberate, it can color how you react.

-=-=-=-=-

i was angry at them for whatever i was angry at them for initially,
but not
for getting in trouble for hurting them. Hurting them would have been
my
choice and I felt I deserved punishment for it.

-=-=-=-

Why would you hurt someone by choice in the first place?

I think that would need to be explored first. Having never been hurt
by people who love him, why would a child choose to hurt another?

-=-=-=-=-

Yes. I did post that later because I am being HONEST about me. But what
does that have to do with anything? Plenty of times people do NOT react
with a hug first, but also do NOT react with ranting or railing. That
was
my point. In fact, most times I do not react first with ranting or
railing
and many times in fact a hug is involved AFTERWARD. In a situation
such as
this I honestly could imagine myself ranting and railing just as Ren
said
she did. That was why my whole question came up in the first place..
Why
would we EXPECT ourselves to instinctively react with a hug? (please
do not
feel as if you need to re-explain this concept, I think I've gotten it
now,
I am just re-listing her for clarification's sake as some people seem
to
think I am making hypocritical statements).

-=-=-=-

But you could by-pass the ranting and railing and just start with the
hug. Why be mean if you will apologize later?

-=-=

An instinct is something you do without deliberating. So for me in that
type of a case and for Ren in that one example and for many others all
the
time it is called instinctive because it is. I am not saying it is a
happy
thing, or something to be proud of, or even something that can NEVER be
changed. I am just arguing the fact that it is instinct. Protect the
weak,
defend the underdog, prosecute the perpetrator. You do not have to
agree
with me, I am only basing this on my realm of experience and do not
claim
for it to be word of fact for all folks.

--=-=-

This is typical parenting. There *is* a better way. I think we can
protect the weak and defend the underdog without "persecuting he
perpetrator."

-=-=-=-=-

>We'd just like for you to look at it in a different way. To see your
child as doing his *best* at all times.

but why do you think YOU do and *I* don't?

-=-=-=-=-=-

Because you refer to him as a "perpetrator"?

-=-=-=-=-

Again, I have NO PROBLEM with this. I am merely admitting that it is
not
instinct to me and I am not sure how to expect it to be. Marji has
given me
the best idea to consider thus far in that the more we consciously
decide to
react in ta certain way (ex: hugs first) then the more possible it is
that
this will EVENTUALLY become our typical response. I see it as a
habituated
response, not necessarily instinctive.. Then again, why is my
instinctive
reaction the way it is now? Is it truly all instinct or might be more
realistic to consider I have been habituated to react this way in the
first
place.. Ooo the web gets complicated ;)

-=-=-=-

Right. The more you *do* it, the easier---and almost second
nature---it becomes.

You may be thinking that we all started out his way. For *many* of us,
it's been a long, long process. Having been spanked as a child, my
first response is to smack. It took a LOT to keep my hand stuck to my
*own* leg and just yell. Then I quit yelling and just shook. <g> Duncan
asked that I quit shaking! <G> Now I just take a deep breath. Works
wonders!

-=-=-=-=-

>He got consoled, he avoided Ben for an hour or so! <G>, and
everything
was fine in a bit.

why did he need consolation? I want to make sure I understand. And as
far as
avoiding Ben for an hour, I am sorry but I don't dig that. He hurt Ben
albeit accidentally and I would have rather he apologized genuinely
and then
interacted as normal.

-=-=-=-=-

Because he was sorry he hit Ben? He's only five. Overwhelmed?

You can't *make* someone apologize genuinely.

-=-=-=-=-

>Let's not look at it as being unkind. Let's look at it as an accident
or as not having the tools or experience to make a better decision.

ok, I guess I can't do that. The shoving was not an accident. Shoving
is
unkind. I agree with experience comes the possibility of making better
decisions but I do find it necessary to let them know right off that
it is
not ok.

-=-=-=-=-

OK---You *are* assuming the worst---that the shoving was not an
accident.

He already knew it was not OK.

-=-=-=-

>Right. *LIFE* is full of natural rewards and punishments. No need to
make up your own. Make the situation better *now*, and he'll
understand
the natural flow because it IS natural.

what did I make up?

-==-=-=-

Punishments. The natural punishment is that he feels bad for what
happened. Losing his video game or his favorite toy or being sent to
his room for time-out or yelled at for causing someone hurt---those are
punishments imposed by someone else.

-=-=-=-


Yes, I have already been learning this in my own life before this ever
came
up here. I guess that is why it made me ask Ren the question in the
first
place.. If our first instinct is to react one way, how can we be
disappointed with ourselves for reacting according to instinct and not
according to our ideal, ie: a hug. I guess this is a very timely topic
for
me. Maybe it is because i have steep stairs and fall from these could
be
deadly, maybe I am misinterpreting the gravity of the potential
injury, but
I honestly do think I would have yelled and I would have needed to calm
myself before even being able to talk to the pusher let alone hug
them.

-=-=-=-

And maybe we would too. But we really work at being more mindful and
thinking that our children are working hard at being GOOD.

-=-=-=-=-

Yes, but physical injuries might require more immediate attention and I
would therefore do that first.

-=-=-=

-And we would too. And Ren did. But she went to Jalen as soon as she
knew Sierra was OK to make sure Jalen was OK.

-=-=-=-=-

I would have more than likely (based on previous experiences) said
something
like, "X go to your room right now. I want you to think about the
choice
you just made and I will be in to talk to you once I know that Y is
ok."

-=-=-=-

And your tone...?

That seems really harsh.

-=-=-=-

ok so now I am creepy.let's start a list :-) .for the record I never
said
"go away"
-=-=--=-

What you said was creepy.

I said, "Go away." You just said, "Go to your room." A person's room
should be a safe place, not a place of punishment or to "think about
it."

-=-=-=-=-

>HOT button! Making someone apologize. Yuck!


I don't get this.

-=-=-=-=-

Making someone apologize doesn't make a person apologetic. It's a
power thing. If a child *is* sorry, he'll say it---if you model it for
him. If you make him, he's just parroting the words. Or he apologizes
to keep from getting in trouble.

What would happen if your son did not apologize when you told him to?

-=-=-=-=-

Honestly, for me, I don't think I would change a thing except the
ranting/railing I freely admitted to and said I was not proud of.

-=-=-=-

Stick around! <g>

Many people think that being a better parent than the one they had is
the best they can be. I've been a better parent than either of mine for
quite a while now. I think I can be better than I am *now*. I keep
working at it.

-=-=-=-

Oh and the apology thing, non-negotiable for me.

-=-=-=-

This could be it's own thread, all by its lonesome.

Why is an apology a must for you?

-=-=-=-=-

see, I think that it is ok to have bad moments because you have
reasons,
(hungry, tired, ill, bad day, etc.) but I really think it is unfair to
treat
others unkindly because of it.

-=-=-=-=-

Let's turn it around and see it from the other direction: I think it's
unfair to be treated unkindly because you're having a bad moment due to
being hungry, ill, tired. *Especially* if you're a young child.

Model kindness and generosity; the child will follow suit.

-=-=-=-=-

I am more apt to accept this sort of thing
from a toddler or young child who is still learning but as they get
older I
have a harder time with it. For example, it would have been harder for
me
to just go and hug my ds/8 or my dd/12 if they were the ones swatting
at
each other, I would have been like, "um, excuse me. I see that you are
tired and in disagreement but it is NOT ok to put your hands on one
another"
etc. Does that make sense?


-=-=-=-=-

Well, we've been talking about a five year old.

But if treated kindly, he will grow into a kinder teen and adult.

And why are your kids swatting each other? What's the underlying
reason? Take care of *that* first.

-=-=-=-

Kelly, I must say I really appreciate the time you and others have
taken to
enlighten me. I do not mean to seem resistant, I am just being very
honest.

-=-=-=-

We know. And even Ren seemed really resistant to all of this several
years ago, <bwg> People change and grow.

Just don't think you'll stay where you are if you keep reading here!
<G> You may even let go of the forced apologies! <G>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>

But as far as why not just skip the meanness, I was referring to the
INSTINCTIVE first reaction. Sadly, sometimes it includes
ranting/railing.
Obviously that is not preferable and in my case I do all I can to get a
grip
over it, but I think it is important for folks to understand that it is
not
as easy as "just skipping" it for all folks.

-=-==-

No, it's not easy. For *most* folks. Many of us still struggle.

But we can *choose* to do better and be better. Each moment. Each day.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>

Well again, you are talking about adults who *ought* to know better
but how
mant times do adults even need help seeing right from wrong? I think
this
is our job as parents to help make sure the kiddos are getting the
point.

-=-=-=-

So if traditional parenting works (rewards, punishments, forced
apologies), why *do* so many adults need help seeing right from wrong?
Didn't their parents make their points?

-=-=-=-

I really *don't* know as I am not an unschooler and now I am not so
sure I
would make a good one anyway.

-=-=-=

Well, the good part is that you're still questioning! <g>

-=-=-=-=-

Actually, I have found him many times now hidden under the blankets at
night
with a flashlight reading his favorite books,

-=-=-=--=

Why does he need to hide that he's reading?

-=-=-=-=-

this is a real change for him
and I attribute it to my perseverance in trying all kinds of new books
until
I found some that he could latch onto and find a liking for. I am
confident
if I had left it up to him totally he would still be thinking he
"hates"
reading.

-=-=-=-

Again, you're thinking the worst. Can you even imagine that he would
have discovered how wonderful books are all by himself?

Did your perseverance also enable him to walk and talk? He really is
capable. It's good to think of him that way.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>

To make it easy, I will limit it to:

Do you never punish or never reward?

-=-=-=-

Nope. Never.

-=-=-=-=-

If your child went above and beyond something for no reason would you
not
recognize or reward that action?

-=-=-=-

I would certainly be appreciative. But I'm guessing they would do
things for actual reasons. that's a big part of being mindful. they
don't do things "for no reason" to get something in exchange. They do
things because it would be nice.

-=-=-=-=-=-

EX: after a stressful day, you come home to find your oldest child has
taken
it upon themselves to do ALL the laundry, for no real reason other
than to
be of help to you. Would you not praise and thank her immensely and
suggest
you 2 go to a movie together as a little gift to her? (NOT that you
never
point out even little things they do with praise or that you never go
to
movies together for no reason at all, because you do - this is just an
example).

-=-=-

This happens a lot--the laundry or the dishes or cleaning the den or
kitchen. Cameron's very kind, generous, and helpful.

I would and DO thank him. But I wouldn't go to a movie to reward him.

-=-=-=-=-

If your child deliberately ignored a responsibility, would you not
punish
the child accordingly?

-=-=-=-

We do NOT punish. And he has no imposed responsibilities.

-=-=-=-=-

EX: your child's pet hamster died because they repeatedly neglected to
feed/water it. Now they want another one. Obviously the death of the
hamster was a natural consequence/punishment in and of itself but
allowing
them to get another?

-=-=-

OH MY GOD! An animal DIES because of neglect???

That's not the child's problem. It's the parent's responsibility to
care for animals taken into the family's custody. If the parent allows
that to happen, there's a MUCH bigger problem!



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities of
what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible. They
go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Rachell Skerlec <panacea@...>

Another one for my library list.. Geez, I thought you unschool
people were
not into giving assignments! LOL

-=-=-=-

Newbies seem to want them! LOL


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

School's goal is to prepare them to be anything they want. But the
process is so dullifying and kids haven't explored the possibilities
of what they could be that many set their sites as low as possible.
They go to college to get a job to buy stuff. ~Joyce Fetteroll


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.