Ren Allen

"I'd look at them as they were being their delightful, amazing, curious,
light-filled selves and started to realize that in many of those
moments I feel they are rude and destructive it really can be just a
matter of perspective...a slight shift in thinking reframes it all."

Aha! I enjoyed the more detailed account of the changes going on..thanks.
It IS mostly perspective isn't it? I've found that the way I choose
to view my children greatly affects my ability to problem solve
peacefully. Assuming the best every time, really leads to better
outcomes.:)

As to the conference craziness...yes, I saw that too. I think when
children are all together in a venue like that, it CAN get a bit crazy
and they DO need reminders of what is appropriate for that venue.

BUT, I have the opportunity to be around large groups of children just
about everwhere I go right now (summertime camps and such) and the
high energy of the conferences is SO different from the truly
destructive energy I see from the overly controlled children.

Lots of young children together means parents need to be more present,
more aware, more available to help them in a place they're not used
to. I still don't equate that with "spoiled" or "out-of-control"
though. The mess in the craft room made MY chest seize up too...so
don't feel badly!!:) I'm not a big fan of styrafoam, uck.

But we've had some whopper messes with flour and water and other gooey
materials. If I can wipe it up, I'm not stressed. And interestingly,
my kids all join in without being asked....the last time Jared said
"we can't leave Mom with all this mess, we need to help."

So yes...it works.
And I think what you've figured out is the very discussion we had at
the conference about freedom and awareness (mindfulness) being parts
of the whole. Freedom without awareness is just craziness (and
sometimes destruction or disrespect). We need both.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Karen Mann

On 6/27/06, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
>
> But we've had some whopper messes with flour and water and other gooey
> materials. If I can wipe it up, I'm not stressed. And interestingly,
> my kids all join in without being asked....the last time Jared said
> "we can't leave Mom with all this mess, we need to help."
>








coming out of lurkdom to add to this.

just the other day my dd (11) was baking in the kitchen. she came out with
flour all over her face. she looked so funny, i busted out laughing. she
decided to take a "flour bath". she put the stopper in the tub and poured
in the flour and jumped in. rolled around for a little while creating a
cloud of flour. she ended up looking like the guy from "home alone". she
tip toed out to the backyard and shook herself off like a dog. we were both
laughing so hard our stomachs hurt. as she headed to the shower, i grabbed
the vacuum and found out that the hose attachment thing didn't work. as i
was troubleshooting the vacuum, hope got out of the shower, got the broom
and dustpan and cleaned up the mess. it was awesome fun!! the whole
episode lasted maybe an hour.

--
~*~*~*~
Karen
~*~Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting
different results. - Albert Einstein~*~
~*~if the fetus you're protecting today grows up to be gay tomorrow, will
you still protect its right? - author unknown~*~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mooosey3

>
> coming out of lurkdom to add to this.
>
> just the other day my dd (11) was baking in the kitchen. she came out
with
> flour all over her face. she looked so funny, i busted out laughing.
she
> decided to take a "flour bath". she put the stopper in the tub and
poured
> in the flour and jumped in. rolled around for a little while creating
a
> cloud of flour. she ended up looking like the guy from "home alone".
she
> tip toed out to the backyard and shook herself off like a dog. we were
both
> laughing so hard our stomachs hurt. as she headed to the shower, i
grabbed
> the vacuum and found out that the hose attachment thing didn't work.
as i
> was troubleshooting the vacuum, hope got out of the shower, got the
broom
> and dustpan and cleaned up the mess. it was awesome fun!! the whole
> episode lasted maybe an hour.
>
> --



Great story and what a wonderful memory you'll both have!


Heather

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 27, 2006, at 6:19 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> "I'd look at them as they were being their delightful, amazing,
> curious,
> light-filled selves and started to realize that in many of those
> moments I feel they are rude and destructive it really can be just a
> matter of perspective...a slight shift in thinking reframes it all."


A teenager (who is worried about his future) said to me, yesterday,
"I'm so fickle. I need to set a goal for my future and make a plan
and stick with it."

I said, "You're so wonderfully flexible, you change your plans when
you realize they aren't working for you. You're willing to
experiment, you have an open-mind about things, and you try on lots
of ideas. You think ahead, but you don't follow a plan just for its
own sake, you constantly re-evaluate what you're doing."

He was flabbergasted. Seriously. He said, "You think more highly of
me than I do." I said, "I'm a LOT older than you and I do have a
better sense of what traits are important in a happy life. You have
been told, over and over, about how important it is to stick to
things, but I have seen with my own eyes that it is important to
sample and experiment a lot, first, and I know that you WILL stick
with something when you find something worth sticking with. You won't
have to decide to do that, you'll do it because you'll want to do it."

So - he's been feeling guilty and awful about himself for being
"fickle." (It is how his own parents see him.)

I hope he'll see himself a little differently - reflected back by me
(and others) in a different way, because thinking of himself as
"fickle" (what a horrible word) isn't helping him - it is stifling him.

Kids internalize what we think about them - that's how they think of
themselves. And it is so hard to change that.


-pam






Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

Awesome. I recently did this with my oldest, who is pretty hard on
himself (although he comes by it naturally, i'm hard on me, and I've
been hard on him in the past). He was so appreciative and thankful
for it. I felt horrible, and determined to verbalize more and think
to myself less.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 27, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
> On Jun 27, 2006, at 6:19 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> > "I'd look at them as they were being their delightful, amazing,
> > curious,
> > light-filled selves and started to realize that in many of those
> > moments I feel they are rude and destructive it really can be just a
> > matter of perspective...a slight shift in thinking reframes it all."
>
> A teenager (who is worried about his future) said to me, yesterday,
> "I'm so fickle. I need to set a goal for my future and make a plan
> and stick with it."
>
> I said, "You're so wonderfully flexible, you change your plans when
> you realize they aren't working for you. You're willing to
> experiment, you have an open-mind about things, and you try on lots
> of ideas. You think ahead, but you don't follow a plan just for its
> own sake, you constantly re-evaluate what you're doing."
>
> He was flabbergasted. Seriously. He said, "You think more highly of
> me than I do."


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>He was flabbergasted. Seriously. He said, "You think more highly of me than I do." I said, "I'm a LOT older than you and I do have a better sense of what traits are important in a happy life. >>

You are an amazing gift to the Universe Pam. Do you mind if I refer to this conversation in my teens and unschholing talk?

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
>
> On Jun 27, 2006, at 6:19 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> > "I'd look at them as they were being their delightful, amazing,
> > curious,
> > light-filled selves and started to realize that in many of those
> > moments I feel they are rude and destructive it really can be just a
> > matter of perspective...a slight shift in thinking reframes it all."
>
>
> A teenager (who is worried about his future) said to me, yesterday,
> "I'm so fickle. I need to set a goal for my future and make a plan
> and stick with it."
>
> I said, "You're so wonderfully flexible, you change your plans when
> you realize they aren't working for you. You're willing to
> experiment, you have an open-mind about things, and you try on lots
> of ideas. You think ahead, but you don't follow a plan just for its
> own sake, you constantly re-evaluate what you're doing."
>
> He was flabbergasted. Seriously. He said, "You think more highly of
> me than I do." I said, "I'm a LOT older than you and I do have a
> better sense of what traits are important in a happy life. You have
> been told, over and over, about how important it is to stick to
> things, but I have seen with my own eyes that it is important to
> sample and experiment a lot, first, and I know that you WILL stick
> with something when you find something worth sticking with. You won't
> have to decide to do that, you'll do it because you'll want to do it."
>
> So - he's been feeling guilty and awful about himself for being
> "fickle." (It is how his own parents see him.)
>
> I hope he'll see himself a little differently - reflected back by me
> (and others) in a different way, because thinking of himself as
> "fickle" (what a horrible word) isn't helping him - it is stifling him.
>
> Kids internalize what we think about them - that's how they think of
> themselves. And it is so hard to change that.
>
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
> Live Love Learn
> UNSCHOOL!
> <http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~So - he's been feeling guilty and awful about himself for being
"fickle." (It is how his own parents see him.)~

oh ugh.
Give him a big hug for me and tell him he's ok just the way he is!!
Alright, you already did that, but send him some hugs from me all the
same...another "fickle" soul.

My Dad even gave me a button once that said "second best, that's for
me", to mock my less serious nature. I liked to dabble and that was
NOT ok back then. I absolutely LOVE the life of a dabbler now. I just
wish it hadn't taken so long to fall in love with the ME I am.:)

One of the coolest things about being a dabbler, is the ability to
hold conversations on many, many topics with all kinds of interesting
people. Very cool.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Vijay Owens

On Jun 27, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Ren Allen wrote:

> My Dad even gave me a button once that said "second best, that's for
> me", to mock my less serious nature. I liked to dabble and that was
> NOT ok back then. I absolutely LOVE the life of a dabbler now. I just
> wish it hadn't taken so long to fall in love with the ME I am.:)

That's awful. My dad once commented that I was "always a nickel short
and a minute late" and I've never forgotten it. I was maybe 7 or 8 at
the time and the implication that I was never going to do anything
right was extremely defeating.

I don't think some parents realize that what are for them offhand
remarks or descriptive terms, are actually very hurtful and are being
internalized by the kids and sometimes remembered for the rest of their
lives.

I run into trouble with this when people ask me if my two girls are
very similar. They couldn't be more different, but it sounds so
negative to call Charlotte "sensitive" and "high strung" or other
similar terms, when describing Violet in the same breath as "laid back"
or "happy" or "mellow" right in front of them. So I just say, "They're
opposites in most ways," and let them figure it out from there using
their own observations.

I know it drives me nuts when my mom compares my sister to me
(unfavorably) always in the context of how smart I am or how I read so
much (and learned how so early) and such. We're 1/2 sisters 17 years
apart! Of course we're different. But even if we were twins it wouldn't
be right to rub it in the way she does.

There is nothing wrong with being a dabbler. There is nothing wrong
with being a specialist. The important thing is to be true to yourself,
do what you love, and love what you do. Here's an excerpt from a cool
article in the washington post about happiness and flow.

Anyone who has slogged through a dead-end job counting the hours until
quittin' time already knows that the right job is a big part of
day-to-day happiness. But finding good, meaningful work -- what Haidt
refers to as a "calling" -- is easier said than done. (That's why they
call it work, Grasshopper.)

"People often think 'I'll be happy when,' " says Pete Cohen, a life
coach and co-author of "Feeling Good for No Good Reason" (How To Books,
1999). But then we get whatever it is we're chasing -- a raise, a
promotion, a good solid kick of the pigskin -- and it turns out we
never really find joie de vivre.

The key is to tap into what Hungarian-born psychologist Mihaly
Csikszentmihalyi describes in his book "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal
Experience" (Harper & Row, 1990) as the total immersion that happens
when "people are so involved in an activity that nothing else seems to
matter." Instead of focusing on the destination, we'd do better to
enjoy the journey -- the work that leads to the raise rather than the
raise itself.

Not a 9-to-5 type? Don't fret. Debbie Gisonni, author of "The Goddess
of Happiness (Inner Ocean Publishing, 2005), recommends thinking back
to childhood and remembering the things that made you happy then. Maybe
your pathway to "flow" is raising kids, painting murals, singing in the
church choir -- anything that plays to your strengths and is rewarding
for its own sake, rather than for the end goal.

-Vijay


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

**A teenager (who is worried about his future) said to me, yesterday,
"I'm so fickle. I need to set a goal for my future and make a plan
and stick with it."**

I remember in my twenties and on to nearly age thirty, sitting around
w. my husband and his sister and her husband and talking about our
jobs and wondering about jobs that we didn't know about. This was a
big topic of conversation at our infrequent gettogethers for *years*.
We all described our job experiences to each other and talked about
what we liked and didn't like, but at the time we really wanted to
know more about how it would feel to try on different jobs. This is
really hard stuff to "get" from just looking outside. I think it's
going to take investigation and trial and error for your friend to
"find himself". And if he doesn't get that done until he's thirty, I
don't think he's really behind.

Does he have interests that his parents don't fully support?
Something "frivolous"?

As an unschooler, I tend to think degree programs and required courses
are too big a time sink and to prefer diving into learning by doing
some kind of project.

This is a great time for your friend to pursue breadth rather than
depth -- but I can't make him believe that.

Betsy

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jul 1, 2006, at 7:36 AM, Betsy Hill wrote:

> And if he doesn't get that done until he's thirty, I
> don't think he's really behind.

He thinks he's behind already, at 17. He's slowly getting that he
might be wrong about that - just from hanging out with my family. But
it is deeply ingrained in him.
>
> Does he have interests that his parents don't fully support?
> Something "frivolous"?

Oh yes. Absolutely. He's getting his black belt in karate this month.
We've introduced him to theater and music and dance and he really
likes all that. He plays games - D&D and Magic, the Gathering. He's
brilliant at spatial puzzles and games - and really really loves them
- things like Rush Hour.

>
> As an unschooler, I tend to think degree programs and required courses
> are too big a time sink and to prefer diving into learning by doing
> some kind of project.

His parents won't let him have much time to dive into other things -
he has to be going to school (college, now that he got himself out of
high school) and/or working full time, all the time. But, we're
helping him squeeze a real life into the time and space he has
available. Mostly he's going without sleep a lot to fit it all in.

>
> This is a great time for your friend to pursue breadth rather than
> depth -- but I can't make him believe that.

Yeah - but he'll be at the HSC AND the L&L conferences, we hope, and
I think that'll be really eye-opening for him. Those who are there,
watch for him and TALK to him, please. The more interaction with
caring and respectful adults and other teens, he has, the better for
him.

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** As list owner, I might be able to encourage more posting on the
UnschoolingStories list, I suppose. But I, personally, don't feel
passionately about regularly sharing anecdotes about our lives just
for the sake of sharing anecdotes - I'd rather share them in the
context of making a philosophical point about unschooling.**

Yeah, I think I tend to chose to post one of my stories when I think
someone *needs* it, when it's relevant to something someone is trying
to sort out. The last story I posted was about navel-gazing about my
career in my twenties, because I thought the story was appropriate for
your teenage friend who feels he should buckle down and focus. (I was
rereading week-old posts in the archives here.)

Often I can't remember enough details of my old stories, beyond the
bottom-line moral of the story. If I post just a "moral" here, I
don't think that means I'm "moralizing", but maybe it sounds like it
to someone. <g> (Sometimes all I can remember about a book is
whether I liked it or not. Maybe I'm an "emotional learner"?)

** Yeah - but he'll be at the HSC AND the L&L conferences, we hope,
and I think that'll be really eye-opening for him. Those who are
there, watch for him and TALK to him, please. The more interaction
with caring and respectful adults and other teens, he has, the better
for him.**

You can introduce me to him, but I'm not sure whether my story of late
maturity will comfort him or not. Rhetorically I'm thinking "how can
you know where you want to live if you've never been there?" The same
goes for knowing what you want to do.

(Hmmm... "finding a calling; finding a job" is a potentially tappable
topic for UnschoolingStories.)

My 50 year old brother-in-law is taking a "what career is right for
you" class at his local community college. He really likes it -- but
HE doesn't have parents breathing down HIS neck. (He's currently, no
kidding, a rocket scientist, but the field IS volatile. <g>)

Betsy