Trudy

During this discussion it seems as if some are suggesting that no
matter what choice a child makes, you let them go with it so as to
not quash their spirit or intimate to the child that their choice is
unwise.

If my 5-year-old daring son wants to ride his bike out in the road on
a hill and I have explained why it's not wise and what could happen
if he chooses to do so, do I let him anyway? If one of my children
decides they want potato chips, Pepsi, and a snickers bar every day
for breakfast and I have explained the unhealthy aspects of that,
telling them about empty calories and lack of nutrition in the snacks
they are occasionally allowed, do I let them do that so their choice
will be honored? They don't enjoy putting sunscreen on before
playing outside. Well, that's their choice - if they get a severe
burn, then so be it, I should require that it be done, right? What
if they have chosen to not brush their teeth for three weeks? What
if they choose to not take a bath? As long as they have a clear
understanding that this is not healthy behavior and have chosen this
path, am I to smile and be happy because they are making their own
choices and that's a beautiful thing?

Someone mentioned that quitting a softball team is not the same as
quitting a play on opening night. Why not? Many teams just have
enough players to get the job done. What if my child is playing a
crucial position and his absence would require the team to forfeit or
not finish the season?

As an adult, what if a mechanic had a car to fix the brakes but
decided the lake was realling calling to him and he wanted to go
fishing, so he closed up shop and went on his merry way. The car's
owner gets there and finds the place closed. Oh, well, the shop
owner made a choice - he didn't CHOOSE to finish working on the
vehicle, and who are we to say that this was wrong?

I mentioned cleaning up cat poop, children's vomit, making breakfast,
lunch, supper, etc. in a previous post - that these are things I have
to do sometimes, although I don't always want to, but I do it because
it has to be be done as it affects my family, not just me. Someone
said I don't have to do these things, I choose to do these things.
Isn't that just a matter of semantics? No - I really didn't choose
to clean up that runny cat poop the other day - I had to do it
because it was right under the brake pedal of the van after the cat
got locked in there overnight.

In my original post on this subject, I didn't say anything much
differnt that many of the responders in that if the situation came up
where a child might want to quit a team, that we would discuss the
root cause of that desire to quit. Our family believes that "I don't
want to" is not always a good enough reason when others will be hurt
in the process.

People talk about not placing labels on others, but it seems that
during this discussion many are so concerned with their own label
of "unschooler" and how pure an unschooler they are that it comes
across as a somewhat elitest attitude (i.e. "you're not a true
unschooler"). If being an unschooler means never requiring an action
from my children or never seeing that they follow through with a
commitment, then please don't label me an unschooler.

Even though we may disagree, it does help to be able to know why one
believes what they believe and why.


Trudy Powell

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/15/06, Trudy <trudypowell@...> wrote:
>
> If my 5-year-old daring son wants to ride his bike out in the road on
> a hill and I have explained why it's not wise and what could happen
> if he chooses to do so, do I let him anyway?

When telling your child the risks of riding at that particular place
have you provided a safer and equally desirable location that he CAN
ride his bike? Remember that unschooling does not mean unparenting.
We still have a responsibility to keep our children safe from things
that could harm them!Sometimes a child needs more assistance in seeing
why something is dangerous. For instance your concern about him
riding on the hill might have to do with it being a blind spot to
oncoming traffic. So take him to where the blind spot is and show him
how a car wouldn't be able to see over the hill and know that there is
a little boy on a bicycle until it is too late. Then help to find him
a place to ride his bicycle.

> If one of my children
> decides they want potato chips, Pepsi, and a snickers bar every day
> for breakfast and I have explained the unhealthy aspects of that,
> telling them about empty calories and lack of nutrition in the snacks
> they are occasionally allowed, do I let them do that so their choice
> will be honored?

Please read some of these articles on food:
http://sandradodd.com/food This comes up all the time. You have
deemed these foods unhealthy and forbidden therefore they are
mysterious and desired. If you take limitations off of them then
your children will come, in time, to see that they are no better or
worse than other foods and since there is nothing mysterious about
them, they tend to lose that mystique!

They don't enjoy putting sunscreen on before
> playing outside. Well, that's their choice - if they get a severe
> burn, then so be it, I should require that it be done, right?

Perhaps their being burned and you being not burned (because you wore
sunscreen) will be an incentive next time to wear it. Or find a way
to put it on them that isn't impeding immediate play. There are
sprays and lotions and even "sport sticks" that can make applying
sunscreen easier (and more fun).

What
> if they have chosen to not brush their teeth for three weeks? What
> if they choose to not take a bath?

Then they will have dirty teeth, bad breath and a smelly body. It's
ok to point out that they have dirty teeth, bad breath and a smelly
body. I do this often with my family members. They generally agree
and will go do something about it. Sometimes they choose to keep
being dirty or stinky.

As long as they have a clear
> understanding that this is not healthy behavior and have chosen this
> path, am I to smile and be happy because they are making their own
> choices and that's a beautiful thing?

No; that is neglectful parenting or unparenting. It is not mindful parenting.

>
> Someone mentioned that quitting a softball team is not the same as
> quitting a play on opening night. Why not? Many teams just have
> enough players to get the job done. What if my child is playing a
> crucial position and his absence would require the team to forfeit or
> not finish the season?

At what cost to your child? Is the team what is important to you or
is your child important to you? Which do you care for the overall
health and well-being of?

>
> As an adult, what if a mechanic had a car to fix the brakes but
> decided the lake was realling calling to him and he wanted to go
> fishing, so he closed up shop and went on his merry way. The car's
> owner gets there and finds the place closed. Oh, well, the shop
> owner made a choice - he didn't CHOOSE to finish working on the
> vehicle, and who are we to say that this was wrong?

Then the mechanic would find a disgruntled customer and he wouldn't
get work from that person again. The car owner could also choose to
tell friends not to use this mechanic and file a complaint with the
BBB. That would be the consequences of the mechanic's actions and
most likely if he is an ethical shop owner he will know that someone
depends on him (as well as future business)

>
> I mentioned cleaning up cat poop, children's vomit, making breakfast,
> lunch, supper, etc. in a previous post - that these are things I have
> to do sometimes, although I don't always want to, but I do it because
> it has to be be done as it affects my family, not just me. Someone
> said I don't have to do these things, I choose to do these things.
> Isn't that just a matter of semantics? No - I really didn't choose
> to clean up that runny cat poop the other day - I had to do it
> because it was right under the brake pedal of the van after the cat
> got locked in there overnight.

That was me :) And yes you still have a choice whether to clean those
things up or not. You *can* leave them there and live with the smell
of cat poop in your car. You still CHOSE to clean it up because you
CHOSE not to smell cat poop everytime you drove somwhere. You didn't
HAVE TO!


>
> In my original post on this subject, I didn't say anything much
> differnt that many of the responders in that if the situation came up
> where a child might want to quit a team, that we would discuss the
> root cause of that desire to quit. Our family believes that "I don't
> want to" is not always a good enough reason when others will be hurt
> in the process.

I find that most people when they "don't want to" have reasons why.
My children used to tell me that they "didn't want to" do something
when they didn't trust me to listen to their reasons. Now that they
know that I will listen to why they don't want to do certain things
and trust that I am not going to judge them they are more open to not
only tell me why but also sometimes to do something that they don't
want to do.

>
> People talk about not placing labels on others, but it seems that
> during this discussion many are so concerned with their own label
> of "unschooler" and how pure an unschooler they are that it comes
> across as a somewhat elitest attitude (i.e. "you're not a true
> unschooler"). If being an unschooler means never requiring an action
> from my children or never seeing that they follow through with a
> commitment, then please don't label me an unschooler.

You are the only one that can label yourself as an unschooler or not.
This list is here for you to explore, ask questions and learn about
unschooling. Coming here and posting very unschooling ideas and
defending them is not being open to a *lifestyle* change into
unschooling.

>
> Even though we may disagree, it does help to be able to know why one
> believes what they believe and why.

I really encourage you to do some reading either on the internet or in
books. Read through the archives as well. If you are going to argue
against unschooling then you need a better understanding as to what
unschooling is.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Melissa

Hm. What to say? I'll go ahead and meet each one of your statements,
and then try to tie it all together.

I think there's a big difference between choosing to play softball
and riding your bike down a hill in the middle of the road. One is a
safety issue, and one is not. What we've done in our house is
figured out why riding the bike down the hill in the middle of the
road was important. There's a reason, they aren't doing it just to
make you angry, or risk their lives. There's another factor. For our
son, it was the only way to 1) get going as fast as he could, 2) roll
easily with minimal work, and 3) there's a funny drop in your stomach
when you top a hill. So we make it safe...we showed him how to look
for cars, we kept an eye out, we took his bike to the lake with
locked off roads, we took him to the local skate park.

On the junk food, it's been said again, but I cannot emphasize how
big of a difference it makes when kids can choose and aren't fearful
of the wait until they are "allowed" more junk. My kids have eaten a
ton of junk while recovering from my controlling habits. But they did
get to the point where the junk isn't important. And they know they
can have it whenever so they eat what makes them feel good, whether
its chocolate, fruit, veggies, water, soda. It's all the same to
them. Be sure to offer easy access fruits and veggies though. We use
a tupperware divided tray to keep stuff out all the time. I usually
put it away about 4pm to help them wait for supper, although if
someone is hungry I'll tell them to help themselves to a smallish
snack to help wait for supper.

Find different sunscreen. There are reasons kids don't like
sunscreen, maybe it takes too long while they are trying to go
outside. Maybe they want to do it themselves. Maybe it smells bad,
maybe it feels slick and icky. Maybe they accidently rub it in their
eyes. Find alternatives. Provide light long screen tees. Get the
sunscreen sticks. Get the aerosol spray, or the instant dry. Let them
do it themselves. As them to play in the shade (and make it appealing
to do so)

Brushing their teeth. The only times my kids have gone three weeks
without brushing is when I was being forceful about it and it was a
powerstruggle. The older ones pretty much do it on their own now,
every once in a while I'll notice the smell and ask "have you
considered brushing your teeth?", we'll laugh about it and they'll do
it in an hour or two. There's nothing wrong about not bathing. It's
actually pretty healthy not to scrub off your normal flora every
day. ;-) When the scum starts sticking, it's uncomfortable to them
and they ask for a bath. My two year old asks for a bath every time
we change his pull-up. It's not an issue for him, he baths when he
feels he needs to.

someone else already mentioned the softball deal, but i did want to
reiterate...you are saying that the ability of a softball team to
play is more important than the mental wellness of your child? If the
team is that low on players, then there are other issues. Or in a
league, it's better to drop out sooner so that the team members can
be absorbed into other teams. If they truly do not like softball, why
did they sign up? Because a parent or friend kept saying how much fun
it would be, or to just try it? There are alternatives to that as well.

The rest of the email is all choices. I used to have a problem with
that. I used to be angry because I *had* to do dishes. I *had* to do
laundry. No, I don't. No one HAS to. The only thing you really *have*
to do is breath, eat and poop. Everything else is choices. One might
not like the consequences on not doing it, or even not making a
choice, but the truth is that all is choice. and you can choose to be
happy. I'm still practicing that part. You say the choices affect the
family..but they apparently aren't as bothered by it? I choose to
clean up a child's vomit because I don't like the smell. I also clean
it up because when I'm sick, I don't like cleaning up my own. I
appreciate someone showing enough care to help make my world nicer.
The last time the little ones were sick, my seven year old woke up in
the middle of the night to my four year old throwing up. Without ever
waking me up, she took him to the bathroom, bathed him, helped him
brush his teeth, cleaned up the puke, and put him back to bed. I
didn't know about it til the next morning. She didn't have to, but
she chose to because she'd seen it modeled when she was sick a few
days before.

No one is saying to not parent your child. What they are saying is to
be mindful, meaning that you carefully consider why you are telling
your children this or that. Often we make choices based on the tapes
in our heads from childhood, the ones that our parents used like
"What will so-n-so think?" or "because i said so". When you stop to
consider why we say yes or no, it's usually very arbitrary reasons,
and kids hear that. Once your children know that the BS is turned
off, then when you say "That's not safe", they listen. When you say,
"Let's try it this way instead," they listen. Children don't want to
be unsafe, they don't want to be hurt or sick. They just want to live
and learn. "When a person becomes a parent, he or she will not only
live through the experiences of the child, but will relive many of
the experiences of the old child he or she once was. Reliving is an
inseparable part of parenting" (Mr Rogers) The hardest part of
parenting is separating yourself from your child and letting them
experience what they need to grow. It's letting go of the fear and
pain, and giving them the opportunity to grow.


Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 15, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Trudy wrote:

> During this discussion it seems as if some are suggesting that no
> matter what choice a child makes, you let them go with it so as to
> not quash their spirit or intimate to the child that their choice is
> unwise.
>
> If my 5-year-old daring son wants to ride his bike out in the road on
> a hill and I have explained why it's not wise and what could happen
> if he chooses to do so, do I let him anyway? If one of my children
> decides they want potato chips, Pepsi, and a snickers bar every day
> for breakfast and I have explained the unhealthy aspects of that,
> telling them about empty calories and lack of nutrition in the snacks
> they are occasionally allowed, do I let them do that so their choice
> will be honored? They don't enjoy putting sunscreen on before
> playing outside. Well, that's their choice - if they get a severe
> burn, then so be it, I should require that it be done, right? What
> if they have chosen to not brush their teeth for three weeks? What
> if they choose to not take a bath? As long as they have a clear
> understanding that this is not healthy behavior and have chosen this
> path, am I to smile and be happy because they are making their own
> choices and that's a beautiful thing?
>
> Someone mentioned that quitting a softball team is not the same as
> quitting a play on opening night. Why not? Many teams just have
> enough players to get the job done. What if my child is playing a
> crucial position and his absence would require the team to forfeit or
> not finish the season?
>
> As an adult, what if a mechanic had a car to fix the brakes but
> decided the lake was realling calling to him and he wanted to go
> fishing, so he closed up shop and went on his merry way. The car's
> owner gets there and finds the place closed. Oh, well, the shop
> owner made a choice - he didn't CHOOSE to finish working on the
> vehicle, and who are we to say that this was wrong?
>
> I mentioned cleaning up cat poop, children's vomit, making breakfast,
> lunch, supper, etc. in a previous post - that these are things I have
> to do sometimes, although I don't always want to, but I do it because
> it has to be be done as it affects my family, not just me. Someone
> said I don't have to do these things, I choose to do these things.
> Isn't that just a matter of semantics? No - I really didn't choose
> to clean up that runny cat poop the other day - I had to do it
> because it was right under the brake pedal of the van after the cat
> got locked in there overnight.
>
> .
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

Michelle –

I have some questions about some statements you made.

In my previous post I had given a scenario of a mechanic who is
working on a customer's vehicle when he decides he wants to stop to
go fishing. He closes up shop for the day, and when the vehicle
owner arrives to get their vehicle, they are unable to do so. You
commented that if this were to happen, the way the mechanic would
learn from the experience would be that he would not get work from
that customer again, that customer would tell others who would not do
business there, and he could be turned in to the Better Business
Bureau for poor business practices. You stated then "he will know
that someone depends on him."

This is my point exactly. The post that started this discussion had
to do with whether or not a parent would allow their child to quit a
team sport, once started. My original comment was that our family
would have to investigate the root cause of that child's desire to
quit, but in lieu of something damaging (i.e. unfit coach or bullying
by other kids, etc.) we would most likely have them continue to the
end of the season, as being on a TEAM has an impact on others, not
just themselves. Some seemed to suggest that this was a bad example
of unschooling as the child would be made to feel guilty if they had
to continue and that having them do something they don't want to do
is detrimental. You asked me who I cared about the most, my child,
or some team. Are you saying that discussing with a child that
others' have feelings and that one needs to strive to be dependable
as our choices impact others is somehow imparting the message to my
child that I don't care about him/her? I must admit, I do not see
the connection there at all.

You commented in your post that your children know that you will "not
judge them for choices" they have made. If this is the case, why
would the mechanic be judged for his choice? Why would his choice to
go fishing receive such dire consequences? Does he have to work on
the car if he doesn't choose to? The customer should respect that
the mechanic did not want to work on the car that day, should they
not? Are you saying that because he is an adult that he should know
better? Isn't this contradictory? Why is there a double standard?
Do you respect the choices that only children make, but not the
choices of adults?

In regards to another "what-if" scenario, you seemed to imply that I
was possibly keeping the application of sunscreen on my children from
being an enjoyable or "fun" enough experience, and if they don't
enjoy it or don't wish to have it applied that I should just let them
get a sunburn and suffer the consequences (i.e. pain, fever, etc.).
In this unschooling way, they will then come to understand why
sunscreen is needed. This seems a bit cruel and unusual to me and a
very poor parenting practice in general.

You also stated that there are times when you have family members who
have chosen to be "dirty or stinky" (I had first asked about the
advisability of letting your child choose whether or not they brush
their teeth or take a bath for weeks at a time). You said, "It's
okay to point out they have dirty teeth, bad breath, and a smelly
body." Why have they chosen to be dirty or stinky if they have been
told/shown about the benefits of being clean (healthier, more
comfortable)? Isn't the term "dirty" or "stinky" a negative label
that should be avoided? What one person perceives as dirty or stinky
may not be to someone else. Do they experience guilt when they
discover they smell bad? Does it hurt them when they discover you
think that about them?

You commented that I was "arguing against unschooling", but I'm not
clear on what you mean. Are you saying that true unschooling - true
freedom - is the knowledge that I never HAVE to do anything, I only
CHOOSE to do things? You said I have been "posting very unschooling
ideas and defending them." So you're saying that because I have
advocated helping a child to see the needs of others beyond
himself/herself that this is a "very unschooling idea"?

Well, when it's all said and done in a few years (although loving
your children is never done), our goal is that our children will
understand how wonderful they are, what purpose they are here for,
and that although they are extremely important and their opinions and
life truly valued, that it's not always only about them – and that's
a great thing! The choices they make do have an impact on others,
and I'm privileged to keep on learning these lessons with them.


Trudy Powell

marji

At 17:08 6/15/2006, you wrote:

>The only thing you really *have*
>to do is breathe, eat and poop.

And sleep. Let's not forget sleep. ;-)

~marji


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

For some reason, people seem to think that these scenarios I have given
were really taking place here. They are not. My kids do not balk at
sunscreen, my 5-year-old doesn't ride his bike in the road (we're
waaaay back off the road), my kids brush their teeth daily and take
baths and showers when they want. We also have shelves full of junk
food (chips, candy, soda - kids just had some), lots of fresh fruit
(been picking gallons of wild raspberries on our place), etc.

Again, these were examples for discussion purposes, to try to
understand if/why/how people approach similar issues.



Trudy Powell

Melissa

;-) I don't know, that's debatable! I often choose to not sleep so I
can have some quiet time after the kids are finally down. :-P
It's a good tradeoff, even though I usually have to compensate the
next day for some irritable feelings I have LOL! I guess the longest
I've gone is 40 hours without sleep. Not healthy choice, true.

Most of my kids, if they don't sleep, throw up. We don't know why,
but they do know that it'll happen, and that is why I rarely have to
say "YOU are tired...get some sleep!"

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 15, 2006, at 4:10 PM, marji wrote:

> At 17:08 6/15/2006, you wrote:
>
> >The only thing you really *have*
> >to do is breathe, eat and poop.
>
> And sleep. Let's not forget sleep. ;-)
>
> ~marji
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 17:23 6/15/2006, you wrote:

>;-) I don't know, that's debatable! I often choose to not sleep so I
>can have some quiet time after the kids are finally down. :-P
>It's a good tradeoff, even though I usually have to compensate the
>next day for some irritable feelings I have LOL! I guess the longest
>I've gone is 40 hours without sleep. Not healthy choice, true.

Well, you can choose not to sleep for a day or two, I guess, but
time's gonna come when you're just gonna havta close dem sleepy eyes!

~marji zintzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (a chonically sleep-deprived,
3rd-shift working person who only gets about 4-5 hours on a good night)




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alice Sackman

marji wrote:
>The only thing you really *have* to do is breathe, eat and poop.
And sleep. Let's not forget sleep. ;-)

**Eat is possibly a choice since you could, like Ghandi, choose not to
eat. Yes, you will die, but you could choose to stop eating. I am not
sure if you could choose to not do the other
things since our bodies do them automatically.

Speaking of choices, I once listened to a Buddhist nun give a talk and
she asked everyone to list all their "have-to's". I had a whole list at
that time and they caused me incredible stress. I have to take the kids
to school, I have to keep the house clean, I have to rescue my sisters
kids because she is using meth, I have to this, I have to that. There
were a ton of them!
Then, the nun said, "Now change all of those have-to sentences to "I
choose to" because in reality, you choose to do all of them." What a
shocker! And so empowering! Instead of feeling like I was out of
control, hemmed in by all these have-to's, I suddenly glimpsed my life
as my own creation, that I am in control, I can choose and choose not to
do certain things. Wow! In fact, I do believe that that was my first
step toward unschooling because I immediately began making changes in my
life and school was one of the things that I decided that we, as a
family, did NOT want to do anymore.


-alice



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/15/06, marji <marji@...> wrote:
>
> At 17:08 6/15/2006, you wrote:
>
> >The only thing you really *have*
>
> >to do is breathe, eat and poop.
>
> And sleep. Let's not forget sleep. ;-)

Nah, you can even forgo that with a large enough dose of caffeine and
a case of insomnia. LOL!!



--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Kristin's Natural Childcare

"my seven year old woke up in
the middle of the night to my four year old throwing up. Without ever
waking me up, she took him to the bathroom, bathed him, helped him
brush his teeth, cleaned up the puke, and put him back to bed. I
didn't know about it til the next morning. She didn't have to, but
she chose to because she'd seen it modeled when she was sick a few
days before."

I just want to say that is wonderful and amazing. :-) my dd is an only
child, but she is first to help another child in my daycare if they have
a problem. I hope that she would be like that if I had other kids as
well. Thank you for sharing :-)

Kristin Suter
Kristin's Natural Childcare
"Supporting your family's natural lifestyle"
www.kristinsnaturalchildcare.com

women.tools.knowledge
pass it on
www.suburbantomboy.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Melissa
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Team Commitments/Character Traits

Hm. What to say? I'll go ahead and meet each one of your statements,
and then try to tie it all together.

I think there's a big difference between choosing to play softball
and riding your bike down a hill in the middle of the road. One is a
safety issue, and one is not. What we've done in our house is
figured out why riding the bike down the hill in the middle of the
road was important. There's a reason, they aren't doing it just to
make you angry, or risk their lives. There's another factor. For our
son, it was the only way to 1) get going as fast as he could, 2) roll
easily with minimal work, and 3) there's a funny drop in your stomach
when you top a hill. So we make it safe...we showed him how to look
for cars, we kept an eye out, we took his bike to the lake with
locked off roads, we took him to the local skate park.

On the junk food, it's been said again, but I cannot emphasize how
big of a difference it makes when kids can choose and aren't fearful
of the wait until they are "allowed" more junk. My kids have eaten a
ton of junk while recovering from my controlling habits. But they did
get to the point where the junk isn't important. And they know they
can have it whenever so they eat what makes them feel good, whether
its chocolate, fruit, veggies, water, soda. It's all the same to
them. Be sure to offer easy access fruits and veggies though. We use
a tupperware divided tray to keep stuff out all the time. I usually
put it away about 4pm to help them wait for supper, although if
someone is hungry I'll tell them to help themselves to a smallish
snack to help wait for supper.

Find different sunscreen. There are reasons kids don't like
sunscreen, maybe it takes too long while they are trying to go
outside. Maybe they want to do it themselves. Maybe it smells bad,
maybe it feels slick and icky. Maybe they accidently rub it in their
eyes. Find alternatives. Provide light long screen tees. Get the
sunscreen sticks. Get the aerosol spray, or the instant dry. Let them
do it themselves. As them to play in the shade (and make it appealing
to do so)

Brushing their teeth. The only times my kids have gone three weeks
without brushing is when I was being forceful about it and it was a
powerstruggle. The older ones pretty much do it on their own now,
every once in a while I'll notice the smell and ask "have you
considered brushing your teeth?", we'll laugh about it and they'll do
it in an hour or two. There's nothing wrong about not bathing. It's
actually pretty healthy not to scrub off your normal flora every
day. ;-) When the scum starts sticking, it's uncomfortable to them
and they ask for a bath. My two year old asks for a bath every time
we change his pull-up. It's not an issue for him, he baths when he
feels he needs to.

someone else already mentioned the softball deal, but i did want to
reiterate...you are saying that the ability of a softball team to
play is more important than the mental wellness of your child? If the
team is that low on players, then there are other issues. Or in a
league, it's better to drop out sooner so that the team members can
be absorbed into other teams. If they truly do not like softball, why
did they sign up? Because a parent or friend kept saying how much fun
it would be, or to just try it? There are alternatives to that as well.

The rest of the email is all choices. I used to have a problem with
that. I used to be angry because I *had* to do dishes. I *had* to do
laundry. No, I don't. No one HAS to. The only thing you really *have*
to do is breath, eat and poop. Everything else is choices. One might
not like the consequences on not doing it, or even not making a
choice, but the truth is that all is choice. and you can choose to be
happy. I'm still practicing that part. You say the choices affect the
family..but they apparently aren't as bothered by it? I choose to
clean up a child's vomit because I don't like the smell. I also clean
it up because when I'm sick, I don't like cleaning up my own. I
appreciate someone showing enough care to help make my world nicer.
The last time the little ones were sick, my seven year old woke up in
the middle of the night to my four year old throwing up. Without ever
waking me up, she took him to the bathroom, bathed him, helped him
brush his teeth, cleaned up the puke, and put him back to bed. I
didn't know about it til the next morning. She didn't have to, but
she chose to because she'd seen it modeled when she was sick a few
days before.

No one is saying to not parent your child. What they are saying is to
be mindful, meaning that you carefully consider why you are telling
your children this or that. Often we make choices based on the tapes
in our heads from childhood, the ones that our parents used like
"What will so-n-so think?" or "because i said so". When you stop to
consider why we say yes or no, it's usually very arbitrary reasons,
and kids hear that. Once your children know that the BS is turned
off, then when you say "That's not safe", they listen. When you say,
"Let's try it this way instead," they listen. Children don't want to
be unsafe, they don't want to be hurt or sick. They just want to live
and learn. "When a person becomes a parent, he or she will not only
live through the experiences of the child, but will relive many of
the experiences of the old child he or she once was. Reliving is an
inseparable part of parenting" (Mr Rogers) The hardest part of
parenting is separating yourself from your child and letting them
experience what they need to grow. It's letting go of the fear and
pain, and giving them the opportunity to grow.

Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo <http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma> com/multimomma

On Jun 15, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Trudy wrote:

> During this discussion it seems as if some are suggesting that no
> matter what choice a child makes, you let them go with it so as to
> not quash their spirit or intimate to the child that their choice is
> unwise.
>
> If my 5-year-old daring son wants to ride his bike out in the road on
> a hill and I have explained why it's not wise and what could happen
> if he chooses to do so, do I let him anyway? If one of my children
> decides they want potato chips, Pepsi, and a snickers bar every day
> for breakfast and I have explained the unhealthy aspects of that,
> telling them about empty calories and lack of nutrition in the snacks
> they are occasionally allowed, do I let them do that so their choice
> will be honored? They don't enjoy putting sunscreen on before
> playing outside. Well, that's their choice - if they get a severe
> burn, then so be it, I should require that it be done, right? What
> if they have chosen to not brush their teeth for three weeks? What
> if they choose to not take a bath? As long as they have a clear
> understanding that this is not healthy behavior and have chosen this
> path, am I to smile and be happy because they are making their own
> choices and that's a beautiful thing?
>
> Someone mentioned that quitting a softball team is not the same as
> quitting a play on opening night. Why not? Many teams just have
> enough players to get the job done. What if my child is playing a
> crucial position and his absence would require the team to forfeit or
> not finish the season?
>
> As an adult, what if a mechanic had a car to fix the brakes but
> decided the lake was realling calling to him and he wanted to go
> fishing, so he closed up shop and went on his merry way. The car's
> owner gets there and finds the place closed. Oh, well, the shop
> owner made a choice - he didn't CHOOSE to finish working on the
> vehicle, and who are we to say that this was wrong?
>
> I mentioned cleaning up cat poop, children's vomit, making breakfast,
> lunch, supper, etc. in a previous post - that these are things I have
> to do sometimes, although I don't always want to, but I do it because
> it has to be be done as it affects my family, not just me. Someone
> said I don't have to do these things, I choose to do these things.
> Isn't that just a matter of semantics? No - I really didn't choose
> to clean up that runny cat poop the other day - I had to do it
> because it was right under the brake pedal of the van after the cat
> got locked in there overnight.
>
> .
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

> During this discussion ...

First of all, I'm happy to see you ready to discuss this further
instead of labeling us as nuts and storming off. With that in mind,
here's my take on your concerns:

> If my 5-year-old daring son wants to ride his bike out in the
> road on a hill and I have explained why it's not wise and what
> could happen if he chooses to do so, do I let him anyway?

When I first learned about radical unschooling, I had this same
incorrect assumption. I think you're misunderstanding the balance
of power here. In a traditional family, the parents have all or
most of the power while the children mostly follow and obey.
Therefore, some people think that unschoolers must be opposite,
giving all the power to the children. But rather than it being a
power struggle at all, the idea is to find a happy balance! We're
partners. So no, I would not let my child ride his bike where he
could possibly get harmed. I would, however, help him find a place
that we both agree is acceptable to ride the bike.

> If one of my children decides they want potato chips, Pepsi, and
> a snickers bar every day for breakfast and I have explained the
> unhealthy aspects of that, telling them about empty calories and
> lack of nutrition in the snacks they are occasionally allowed, do
> I let them do that so their choice will be honored?

Yes and No. First, my guess is that after a while they may tire of
that same breakfast. Second, adults have coffee as a regular
breakfast drink. In fact, I think coffee has more caffeine than
coke does. FWIW, I drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning with lots
of sugar and half and half. I'm sure it's not the healthiest drink,
but I love it! Would you feel better if he chose a big bowl of
Fruit Loops and kool-aid? I say let them eat what they want, but
add to the choices. Cut up an apple and put it near him. Say
something like 'I thought you might like this too.' But don't fuss
if he says no. If you make it a mandatory thing, you are taking
away their choice. I'm reading a good book right now called _Let
them Eat Cake! The Case Against Controlling What Your Children Eat_
by Robert E. Kleinman. It's a very interesting read! It reminds us
that children's metabolisms are different than adults and that
habits set in childhood don't always carry over into adulthood. I
can tell you that my food choices are based on what I want and not
what I did when I was a child. I used to be able to eat sugar
cereal and lots of candy and I've truly lost my taste for such large
quantities. I still like sweets, but they don't monopolize my diet.

I also firmly believe that if you make foods forbidden, those foods
will be the ones the child craves the most and will go out of his
way to attain. I think it's better to present a multitude of
choices rather than limiting. Kids will not always choose the junk
food at every meal. Even if they do for a few days because it's a
novel idea, they'll tire of it quickly. Their bodies will tell them
YUCK. :)

> They don't enjoy putting sunscreen on before playing outside.
> Well, that's their choice - if they get a severe burn, then so
> be it, I should require that it be done, right?

If they refuse it, let them try to go without it. But watch them
closely. After a while, their skin will start to redden. Then you
ask them to come inside for a moment, like for a snack or something
and say 'Wow, your skin is starting to look red. I don't want you
to get a sunburn because it can really hurt. Would you like to see
in the mirror? And look at this new spray stuff I have, it's so
easy and FAST to get on.' My kids used to hate getting sunscreen
because the lotion took so long. The spray is a huge hit. :)

> What if they have chosen to not brush their teeth for three
> weeks? What if they choose to not take a bath?

It's okay to gently ask if they'd like some help or even company
while they bathe or brush teeth. Sometimes they just feel like they
are missing out if they spend a few minutes brushing teeth or have
to get in the tub. Offer to sit in there and talk with them, or
read a book, or offer something afterwards like 'Hey, I wanted to
play [game name] but thought you'd like to take a quickie bath while
I'm setting it up and getting us some snacks ready. Then you won't
have to worry about bathing later.' Baths can be fun if you offer
cool things like bubble bath, tub tints and new cheap toys from the
dollar store. I really don't think a child would elect to go 3
weeks without bathing or brushing teeth. They can feel yucky too,
even if they can last longer without a bath than most adults. :)

> As long as they have a clear understanding that this is not
> healthy behavior and have chosen this path, am I to smile and be
> happy because they are making their own choices and that's a
> beautiful thing?

Remember, be their active partner in helping them make good
choices. Sometimes kids only see black or white choices. We can
help them see all the gray compromises.

> Someone mentioned that quitting a softball team is not the same as
> quitting a play on opening night. Why not? Many teams just have
> enough players to get the job done. What if my child is playing a
> crucial position and his absence would require the team to forfeit
> or not finish the season?

Wow, that's a lot of pressure to put on anyone, let alone a child.
That's not the child's problem, nor is it yours. It is the team's
problem. How well would a child play if they were being forced to
stay? I hated, hated, hated playing team sports when I was in high
school. Did I mention I hated it?? I dressed out only the minimum
required number of days to pass P.E. The days I was forced to play
did not find me giving it my all. Instead, I stood as far to the
side or back and grumbled the entire time. I didn't care if
my "team" was depending on me. No one seemed to care how I felt, so
why should I care how they felt?

I worked for a man once who had a unique perspective on people who
wanted to quit. When they offered their 2-week resignation, he'd
thank them for being great employees, and encourage them to just
leave and not come back. He knew that time meant money. He didn't
want any employees who were only watching the clock or the calendar
because they wouldn't be putting all their energy into their jobs.
He wasn't mean about it. I thought it was very practical from a
business standpoint. Not everyone would continue doing great work
for their last days when they know a final day is coming up.

> As an adult, what if a mechanic had a car to fix the brakes but
> decided the lake was realling calling to him and he wanted to go
> fishing, so he closed up shop and went on his merry way. The
> car's owner gets there and finds the place closed. Oh, well, the
> shop owner made a choice - he didn't CHOOSE to finish working on
> the vehicle, and who are we to say that this was wrong?

This person is probably a mechanic because he really likes doing
it. He wants his business to succeed. He won't make promises he
can't keep. Perhaps instead he schedules one day when the shop is
closed so he can have a day of fishing. My personal mechanic is not
available 7 days per week, nor does he have very long hours. But
he's good and so we keep returning and even recommend him to
others. That's just good business. Now, if that person working
wasn't the owner, maybe the owner would get really angry and fire
the person who shouldn't have closed early. Sounds like this person
needs to find a different line of work that is more flexible so he
can spend time doing what he loves, fishing! :)

> I mentioned cleaning up cat poop, children's vomit, making
> breakfast, lunch, supper, etc. in a previous post - that these
> are things I have to do sometimes, although I don't always want
> to, but I do it because it has to be be done as it affects my
> family, not just me.

Ah... so if someone else volunteered to do these things instead,
would you feel relieved and pass the responsibilities on to that
person? Are you looking for help? Do you ask others to help out?
I don't mean to sound judgemental, but you're sounding like a
martyr. Oh poor me, I have to do these awful chores because no one
else will. Of course that may not be the case. Perhaps another way
to look at it is that you don't mind doing these things because you
love your family, your pets and your home. I have to do things I
don't like either, such as cleaning cat pans and toilets, and
cooking. Which, BTW, I'd rather clean toilets than cook. But
anyway, I know these things make my family happy (most of the time)
so I do them because I want them to get done. But I can find
compromises. Buying the pre-soaped toilet scrubbies takes the yuck
part out of that job. Have easy to eat food accessible for the kids
means less cooking for me. I keep cut up fruit in the fridge. If
they have to cut a cantaloupe, they may choose to eat a sugar cookie
instead. But if I make it easy for them to grab the melon, they are
just as likely to eat that. My dd8 knows how to cook a scrambled
egg in the microwafe. My ds9 can prepare his own bowl of cereal.
Lunch items are also easy to have available. Look for compromises,
or ask here. I'm sure we can brainstorm some great ideas.

> Our family believes that "I don't want to" is not always a good
> enough reason when others will be hurt in the process.

I understand this. However, I think you should be aware that it can
swing the other way. I grew up believing that others didn't care
how I really felt and that it was my responsibility to keep them
happy regardless of how I felt inside. As an adult and with the
help of a therapist, I figured out that my mom taught me those
things when she was hurting from the divorce with my dad. It took a
lot of work and time to change how I felt because it was really my
way of life. I'm trying to teach my children balance. I don't want
them to hurt others, obviously. I don't want them feeling hurt
either. I think each situation needs to be carefully thought out.
Sometimes we have to do things we don't like, but not every single
time. Sometimes, other people have to accept that I need to take
care of myself. I want my children to understand that.

> People talk about not placing labels on others, but it seems that
> during this discussion many are so concerned with their own label
> of "unschooler" and how pure an unschooler they are that it comes
> across as a somewhat elitest attitude (i.e. "you're not a true
> unschooler"). If being an unschooler means never requiring an
> action from my children or never seeing that they follow through
> with a commitment, then please don't label me an unschooler.
> Trudy Powell

I can't answer for anyone else, but I'd like to say that although I
am an unschooler, I don't give a fig about what other people think.
I don't care for any label actually. I also don't care if I'm a
pure unschooler or not. I know I'm going to do things differently
than other people. I want to live my life and raise my children the
best way I know how, not the best way someone else thinks. Does
that make sense?

It's taken me a few years to change my way of thinking. In fact, I
still have things I'm working on. I am really sorry if I ever come
across as an elitist or any other holier-than-thou attitude. It's
just that once I broke through the barriers I had set up for myself,
I just realized how trivial they really were. I did spend a brief
period of time bemoaning all the lost time I've wasted but then I
realized that sort of thinking wasn't doing anything positive for my
future. I sure wish I could have been uschooled. I sure wish I
could change the way I've treated my children in the past. I sure
wish I could .... but wishes aren't helpful. Instead, I feel
challenged to improve myself, my parenting skills and my family.
I'm living with them for today, not worried about our past nor
stressed about our future.

If you don't want to be called an unschooler, that's fine. I
believe you need to follow your heart and your gut. The one piece
of advice I have for you that I have learned on my unschooling
journey thus far, is not to dismiss on the first shocking
revelation. I got mad at unschoolers challenging me and would unsub
from lists. But their words sat in my heart and slowly I realized
they were right and that I just needed to change my way of
thinking. Again, that was baggage from my life that I had to work
through. It was difficult to realize there's a better way than what
I was doing before. I don't like admitting I'm wrong. My family
taught me that 'wrong' was a weakness. Now I believe that 'wrong'
is just part of life. Live and learn.

BTW, my mom and sister are in awe of me and all my changes. They
say they don't understand it and could never do what I've done. But
the change has to come from within, not without. Until they
understand that, they won't change because they won't feel ready to
do so.

Beth M.

Melissa

Thanks! I'd like to say they are always so kind and helpful, but they
*can* be harsh to each other as well. I guess that just about makes
them normal. No one likes a saint anyway !

:-P
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 15, 2006, at 9:29 PM, Kristin's Natural Childcare wrote:

> "my seven year old woke up in
> the middle of the night to my four year old throwing up. Without ever
> waking me up, she took him to the bathroom, bathed him, helped him
> brush his teeth, cleaned up the puke, and put him back to bed. I
> didn't know about it til the next morning. She didn't have to, but
> she chose to because she'd seen it modeled when she was sick a few
> days before."
>
> I just want to say that is wonderful and amazing. :-) my dd is an only
> child, but she is first to help another child in my daycare if they
> have
> a problem. I hope that she would be like that if I had other kids as
> well. Thank you for sharing :-)
>
> Kristin Suter
> Kristin's Natural Childcare
> "Supporting your family's natural lifestyle"
> www.kristinsnaturalchildcare.com
>
> women.tools.knowledge
> pass it on
> www.suburbantomboy.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Melissa
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:08 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Team Commitments/Character Traits
>
> Hm. What to say? I'll go ahead and meet each one of your statements,
> and then try to tie it all together.
>
> I think there's a big difference between choosing to play softball
> and riding your bike down a hill in the middle of the road. One is a
> safety issue, and one is not. What we've done in our house is
> figured out why riding the bike down the hill in the middle of the
> road was important. There's a reason, they aren't doing it just to
> make you angry, or risk their lives. There's another factor. For our
> son, it was the only way to 1) get going as fast as he could, 2) roll
> easily with minimal work, and 3) there's a funny drop in your stomach
> when you top a hill. So we make it safe...we showed him how to look
> for cars, we kept an eye out, we took his bike to the lake with
> locked off roads, we took him to the local skate park.
>
> On the junk food, it's been said again, but I cannot emphasize how
> big of a difference it makes when kids can choose and aren't fearful
> of the wait until they are "allowed" more junk. My kids have eaten a
> ton of junk while recovering from my controlling habits. But they did
> get to the point where the junk isn't important. And they know they
> can have it whenever so they eat what makes them feel good, whether
> its chocolate, fruit, veggies, water, soda. It's all the same to
> them. Be sure to offer easy access fruits and veggies though. We use
> a tupperware divided tray to keep stuff out all the time. I usually
> put it away about 4pm to help them wait for supper, although if
> someone is hungry I'll tell them to help themselves to a smallish
> snack to help wait for supper.
>
> Find different sunscreen. There are reasons kids don't like
> sunscreen, maybe it takes too long while they are trying to go
> outside. Maybe they want to do it themselves. Maybe it smells bad,
> maybe it feels slick and icky. Maybe they accidently rub it in their
> eyes. Find alternatives. Provide light long screen tees. Get the
> sunscreen sticks. Get the aerosol spray, or the instant dry. Let them
> do it themselves. As them to play in the shade (and make it appealing
> to do so)
>
> Brushing their teeth. The only times my kids have gone three weeks
> without brushing is when I was being forceful about it and it was a
> powerstruggle. The older ones pretty much do it on their own now,
> every once in a while I'll notice the smell and ask "have you
> considered brushing your teeth?", we'll laugh about it and they'll do
> it in an hour or two. There's nothing wrong about not bathing. It's
> actually pretty healthy not to scrub off your normal flora every
> day. ;-) When the scum starts sticking, it's uncomfortable to them
> and they ask for a bath. My two year old asks for a bath every time
> we change his pull-up. It's not an issue for him, he baths when he
> feels he needs to.
>
> someone else already mentioned the softball deal, but i did want to
> reiterate...you are saying that the ability of a softball team to
> play is more important than the mental wellness of your child? If the
> team is that low on players, then there are other issues. Or in a
> league, it's better to drop out sooner so that the team members can
> be absorbed into other teams. If they truly do not like softball, why
> did they sign up? Because a parent or friend kept saying how much fun
> it would be, or to just try it? There are alternatives to that as
> well.
>
> The rest of the email is all choices. I used to have a problem with
> that. I used to be angry because I *had* to do dishes. I *had* to do
> laundry. No, I don't. No one HAS to. The only thing you really *have*
> to do is breath, eat and poop. Everything else is choices. One might
> not like the consequences on not doing it, or even not making a
> choice, but the truth is that all is choice. and you can choose to be
> happy. I'm still practicing that part. You say the choices affect the
> family..but they apparently aren't as bothered by it? I choose to
> clean up a child's vomit because I don't like the smell. I also clean
> it up because when I'm sick, I don't like cleaning up my own. I
> appreciate someone showing enough care to help make my world nicer.
> The last time the little ones were sick, my seven year old woke up in
> the middle of the night to my four year old throwing up. Without ever
> waking me up, she took him to the bathroom, bathed him, helped him
> brush his teeth, cleaned up the puke, and put him back to bed. I
> didn't know about it til the next morning. She didn't have to, but
> she chose to because she'd seen it modeled when she was sick a few
> days before.
>
> No one is saying to not parent your child. What they are saying is to
> be mindful, meaning that you carefully consider why you are telling
> your children this or that. Often we make choices based on the tapes
> in our heads from childhood, the ones that our parents used like
> "What will so-n-so think?" or "because i said so". When you stop to
> consider why we say yes or no, it's usually very arbitrary reasons,
> and kids hear that. Once your children know that the BS is turned
> off, then when you say "That's not safe", they listen. When you say,
> "Let's try it this way instead," they listen. Children don't want to
> be unsafe, they don't want to be hurt or sick. They just want to live
> and learn. "When a person becomes a parent, he or she will not only
> live through the experiences of the child, but will relive many of
> the experiences of the old child he or she once was. Reliving is an
> inseparable part of parenting" (Mr Rogers) The hardest part of
> parenting is separating yourself from your child and letting them
> experience what they need to grow. It's letting go of the fear and
> pain, and giving them the opportunity to grow.
>
> Melissa
> Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
> (2), and Avari Rose
>
> share our lives at
> http://360.yahoo <http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma> com/multimomma
>
> On Jun 15, 2006, at 9:12 AM, Trudy wrote:
>
> > During this discussion it seems as if some are suggesting that no
> > matter what choice a child makes, you let them go with it so as to
> > not quash their spirit or intimate to the child that their choice is
> > unwise.
> >
> > If my 5-year-old daring son wants to ride his bike out in the
> road on
> > a hill and I have explained why it's not wise and what could happen
> > if he chooses to do so, do I let him anyway? If one of my children
> > decides they want potato chips, Pepsi, and a snickers bar every day
> > for breakfast and I have explained the unhealthy aspects of that,
> > telling them about empty calories and lack of nutrition in the
> snacks
> > they are occasionally allowed, do I let them do that so their choice
> > will be honored? They don't enjoy putting sunscreen on before
> > playing outside. Well, that's their choice - if they get a severe
> > burn, then so be it, I should require that it be done, right? What
> > if they have chosen to not brush their teeth for three weeks? What
> > if they choose to not take a bath? As long as they have a clear
> > understanding that this is not healthy behavior and have chosen this
> > path, am I to smile and be happy because they are making their own
> > choices and that's a beautiful thing?
> >
> > Someone mentioned that quitting a softball team is not the same as
> > quitting a play on opening night. Why not? Many teams just have
> > enough players to get the job done. What if my child is playing a
> > crucial position and his absence would require the team to
> forfeit or
> > not finish the season?
> >
> > As an adult, what if a mechanic had a car to fix the brakes but
> > decided the lake was realling calling to him and he wanted to go
> > fishing, so he closed up shop and went on his merry way. The car's
> > owner gets there and finds the place closed. Oh, well, the shop
> > owner made a choice - he didn't CHOOSE to finish working on the
> > vehicle, and who are we to say that this was wrong?
> >
> > I mentioned cleaning up cat poop, children's vomit, making
> breakfast,
> > lunch, supper, etc. in a previous post - that these are things I
> have
> > to do sometimes, although I don't always want to, but I do it
> because
> > it has to be be done as it affects my family, not just me. Someone
> > said I don't have to do these things, I choose to do these things.
> > Isn't that just a matter of semantics? No - I really didn't choose
> > to clean up that runny cat poop the other day - I had to do it
> > because it was right under the brake pedal of the van after the cat
> > got locked in there overnight.
> >
> > .
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christy Mahoney

--- In [email protected], "Trudy" <trudypowell@...>
wrote:

> You commented in your post that your children know that you
will "not
> judge them for choices" they have made. If this is the case, why
> would the mechanic be judged for his choice? Why would his choice
to
> go fishing receive such dire consequences? Does he have to work
on
> the car if he doesn't choose to? The customer should respect that
> the mechanic did not want to work on the car that day, should they
> not? Are you saying that because he is an adult that he should
know
> better? Isn't this contradictory? Why is there a double
standard?
> Do you respect the choices that only children make, but not the
> choices of adults?

I don't think anyone meant that we should respect all choices
equally, especially when they impact us. If you are a customer, of
course you would be less likely to go back to an unreliable
mechanic. Those are the natural consequences for that mechanic, and
he can choose his actions accordingly. As an adult, he most likely
knows that if he doesn't perform as agreed upon in business, he will
lose customers.

The difference is that if your son is on a team and decides to quit,
the consequences are HIS to bear, not yours as the parent. Yes, as
a parent, it's helpful to let your son know what may happen as a
result of his actions, but once he understands this,why would it be
your choice instead of his? His choice will affect his team, and
they will choose to be upset about it or not.


You said, "It's
> okay to point out they have dirty teeth, bad breath, and a smelly
> body." Why have they chosen to be dirty or stinky if they have
been
> told/shown about the benefits of being clean (healthier, more
> comfortable)? Isn't the term "dirty" or "stinky" a negative label
> that should be avoided? What one person perceives as dirty or
stinky
> may not be to someone else. Do they experience guilt when they
> discover they smell bad? Does it hurt them when they discover you
> think that about them?

I don't think I would be so blunt because it probably make my dd
feel bad. I would say something if it was affecting me, but I would
probably say that I am sensitive to smells (which I am), and I would
like to watch TV or snuggle after she showered. My dd doesn't like
to take showers much, even though she knows that she feels better
after. I don't tell her to take a shower for her own good or to
teach her a lesson. I tell her how it affects me, or I might give
her information like, "I feel so nice and fresh after I shower."
Yes, it might hurt her feelings, but if we were going somewhere
where she might be close to other people, I would let her know that
it might bother them if she smelled bad.

I have a lot more thoughts on this subject, but I don't have time
for them right now. Maybe later:)

-Christy


>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 15, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Trudy wrote:

> During this discussion it seems as if some are suggesting that no
> matter what choice a child makes, you let them go with it so as to
> not quash their spirit or intimate to the child that their choice is
> unwise.

No. You've misunderstood. I think you have the paradigm of
authoritarian versus permissive parenting, in mind, and you're seeing
through that lens.

You're thinking as if there are two extreme options - "let them go"
or "make them do the right thing" and that we're at the extreme "let
them go" end.

We're doing something completely different - it isn't just letting
them do anything and everything, regardless of the consequences, and
it isn't making them do what we want them to do, regardless of their
desires. Neither of those is an accurate characterization of what we
do. AND - it isn't just something in between two extremes; it isn't
somewhere on that spectrum, it is completely different.

It takes a lot of words of explanation and examples to get the idea
across of what we're doing that is so different - but it really is
something different than what you seem to be thinking.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 15, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Trudy wrote:

> The post that started this discussion had
> to do with whether or not a parent would allow their child to quit a
> team sport, once started. My original comment was that our family
> would have to investigate the root cause of that child's desire to
> quit, but in lieu of something damaging (i.e. unfit coach or bullying
> by other kids, etc.) we would most likely have them continue to the
> end of the season, as being on a TEAM has an impact on others, not
> just themselves.

My husband has coached kids' soccer for many many years - over 40
different teams. He HATES it when parents make a kid stay on the team
in spite of the kid wanting to quit. A kid forced to be there is a
terrible negative drain on a team. Youth sports teams always have
extra players just in case a kid decides to drop out or in case
someone gets injured, etc.

Also - you are saying that you'd have to see something happening that
was damaging, before you'd let the child quit. So just the fact that
the child doesn't want to go is not enough of a reason. But, be
really careful about discounting what a kid wants - sometimes kids
can't articulate what it is they are not liking, but it could be that
they get bad vibes from the coach or another involved parent - and
that might be for good reason.

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 15, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Trudy wrote:

> For some reason, people seem to think that these scenarios I have
> given
> were really taking place here.

Real problems are more helpful to explain unschooling and mindful
parenting than made up. That's because no matter how possible a
scenario seems, it may not happen in reality.

Someone asked me if my daughter wanted to do drugs would I just say
yes? While there are certainly plenty of 14 yos taking drugs --
though probably not many asking if they can ;-) -- the question
assumes that because it's possible for any 14 yo that its just as
likely for my 14 yo.

There are factors in a 14 yo drug user that have led up to drug use.
More than likely they're in school. More than likely they've been
parented by conventional means. Drug use doesn't happen because a
child turns 14. It happens for reasons that mindful parenting seeks
to eliminate: control, not trying to understand the needs of the
child and only seeking to elicit correct behavior and thought,
putting the child's needs second to other people and the running of
the family and so on.

Conventional parenting is about using solution X on problem X.
Mindful parenting is about understanding what is beneath the behavior
and correcting what has *caused* the behavior rather than seeking
solutions to suppress the behavior.

If a child wants to ride in the street, the mindful solution is to
find a safe way for the child to get what they're trying to get from
the street. As people suggested: finding safer -- and better! --
places to ride that offer the same thing they're seeking (like a big
hill), finding safe ways to make street riding possible and so on.

It's really difficult to discuss made up situations because made up
situations focus on what and don't have the underlying why that
mindful parenting needs to help the child find a safe way to get what
they're trying to get.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 15, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Trudy wrote:

> The post that started this discussion had
> to do with whether or not a parent would allow their child to quit a
> team sport, once started.

No one should depend on a child as adults do on other adults, not
even teams when they're young. Even high school team coaches know
from experience that many of the new kids just trying it out are
going to quit.

You're assuming that means I think that it's okay for anyone to quit
anytime they feel like it. But it's more complex than that.

Your equating sticking with a team as a child as practice for
sticking with a commitment as an adult.

But teams for kids *expect* there to be kids quitting so it's an
untruth to say that it hurts a team for a child to quit.

Will a team suffer if the star quarter back of the high school
championship team decides to quit? Yes, of course. But no child
should be *made to feel* as though their presence on the team is as
important as that. And anyone who is the star quarterback already
knows how important they are. They can't have reached that point
without understanding what it will mean to the team if they quit.
(And if the quarterback does want to quit the factors involved in
that desire shouldn't be seen the same as a 6 yo not liking soccer
after a couple of games.)

So it's a big lie to tell a child their Little League team will
suffer if they quit.

But it's scary for parents to see that truth. We think we need to lie
to them to get them to understand commitment.

There are *other* *better* ways and if you'd just ask rather than
assuming it's not possible you'd get some answers.

And what parents demonstrate for kids by telling the child the team
will suffer if they quit is the technique of the ends (getting a
child to understand how important we believe commitment is)
justifying the means (lying to them.)

There are *better* ways to help children understand obligations and
commitments than lying about how important it is they stick with
something, and making them stay when their inner voice is saying it's
taking more from them than they're getting from it. (And then as
adults people have to spend big bucks to psychiatrists to get help to
listen to the voices buried so deep inside them that tell them what
they want from life!)

Childhood is for learning about the consequences of our actions. They
learn what if feels like when an adult makes a promise to them and
doesn't follow through. They learn that friends get hurt and mad when
the child promises the friend something and doesn't do that. *That's*
how kids internalize the importance of doing what others are
depending on you to do.

We can talk to them and help them see a bigger picture, some
consequences they may not understand, when they want to quit or go
back on a promise or whatever. But as their partners we need to help
them make the decisions that feel right to them so they can
internalize that bigger picture by seeing what happens when they make
a certain decision. And we can help them through the consequences.
Not wipe away the consequences, but help them cope.

This is the same with everything a child tries. We learn more by
trying things out and making mistakes than by memorizing someone's
"right" way. Just because a child makes a choice that makes it
appear they don't care doesn't mean they don't care and that they
haven't learned something. Just because a child mixes red and green
and it turns all muddy doesn't mean they haven't learned more about
painting.

And just because a child acts as though they care -- because they've
been made to act -- doesn't mean they care. Just because a child can
color in the lines with the "right" colors doesn't mean they're
learning anything about art.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

Here's the point people are trying to make in a nutshell.

We *have* kids -- older kids who are able to take on important
commitments where others are honestly depending on them (pet sitting
for instance) --- who take their commitments and obligations
seriously. We have kids who feel bad if they let someone down but who
also have a good sense of self and know when they need to stop doing
something that's taking more from them than they're getting. But who
don't make that decision lightly, who understand the consequences of
not following through on something they thought they could do.

You're saying it's not possible for kids to do that if they're
allowed to quit. And then go on to tell us why it's not possible.

Which means people are spending a lot of words trying to explain how
you're wrong.

Stop. Just stop telling us that what we have isn't possible.

*Please* just ask people about their kids and how they've made what
you're having trouble believing possible.

It's not chance that our kids are thoughtful and treat commitments
seriously. It's from thoughtful *mindful* parenting. It's from
treating them as fellow human beings and taking them seriously.

Joyce

April Morris

Here's another perspective. From the point of view of a team who lost two
members. My kids participate in Odyssey of the Mind (OM). Teams consist of
5-7 kids. No more than 7 kids can help on a problem which means if a team of
7 has a member quit, that team member cannot be replaced. My son's team had
all experienced OM kids. They had worked together before. Something happened
this year though, they just were not gelling. Their ages are 11-15 and
sometimes kids that do well together when they are young, don't always do
well together as teens. This team had 6 members and two ended up quiting
well into the season. They were very unhappy being part of the team. The
rest of the team spent a lot of energy trying to make them happy. Nobody
was doing anything wrong. But it just wasn't working. The girls' parents
encouraged them to do what was best for them. The decision was not made
lightly or easily. They knew they had made a commitment. But no commitment
should be absolute at the cost of personal health. It was difficult when the
girls quit. There were hurt feelings on both sides. But ultimately, the
remaining team members were relieved they had left. They were now able to
focus all their energy on solving the problem. They added another team
member (since they only had 6 to begin with, they were able to do that) and
did a great job. The girls that left started a different team with a
different problem and had a blast. They are all still friends. It would
have been miserable for everyone if they had been forced to stay with the
team. These kids were able to work through this together. All the parents
were available and willing to help them as the decisions were being made.
The girls who left had to deal with the hurt feelings, but also received the
gift of being allowed to listen to their hearts and do what they thought was
best for them. The kids left on the team learned that no one is
indispensable. They had to deal with what they might have done to contribute
to their desire to leave and to accept that, in part, it was nothing anybody
did, just personality conflict. It happens to the best of us. My point is
that, though it was difficult for everyone, more was learned by allowing the
girls free choice to leave then would have been learned by making them stay.
Kids who are forced to stay on a team or whatever to learn 'commitment' miss
out on learning even more valuable life lessons.
--
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-17, Karl-15, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey


On 6/16/06, Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> Here's the point people are trying to make in a nutshell.
>
> We *have* kids -- older kids who are able to take on important
> commitments where others are honestly depending on them (pet sitting
> for instance) --- who take their commitments and obligations
> seriously. We have kids who feel bad if they let someone down but who
> also have a good sense of self and know when they need to stop doing
> something that's taking more from them than they're getting. But who
> don't make that decision lightly, who understand the consequences of
> not following through on something they thought they could do.
>
> You're saying it's not possible for kids to do that if they're
> allowed to quit. And then go on to tell us why it's not possible.
>
> Which means people are spending a lot of words trying to explain how
> you're wrong.
>
> Stop. Just stop telling us that what we have isn't possible.
>
> *Please* just ask people about their kids and how they've made what
> you're having trouble believing possible.
>
> It's not chance that our kids are thoughtful and treat commitments
> seriously. It's from thoughtful *mindful* parenting. It's from
> treating them as fellow human beings and taking them seriously.
>
> Joyce
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 15, 2006, at 10:12 AM, Trudy wrote:

> Someone
> said I don't have to do these things, I choose to do these things.
> Isn't that just a matter of semantics?

No, not just semantics. Pretty foundational to a happy unschooling,
mindful parenting life :-)

The words we use, the thoughts we keep in our heads, shape how we
feel about and see the world. It's true of "have to." It's true of
"lazy". It's true of seeing the world through learning rather than
teaching.

Changing our thinking from "have to" to "choose to" can have a huge
impact on how we feel about something and how we react to it.

I used to "have to" clean the toilet weekly. I didn't actually do it
weekly! but I had this running voice in my head that was filling me
with guilt every time I'd go by that I "had to" clean the toilet.

But when I realized I didn't "have to", that there wasn't anyone who
would make me -- no mom, no "clean police" ;-) -- that I could choose
to never ever clean the toilet again, I realized that sometimes I
wanted a clean toilet. I didn't necessarily want to do it but I did
like not having a filthy toilet. And once I realized I had a choice
and I could choose to clean it or not that I cleaned it a lot more
often than when that voice in my head tried to guilt me into doing it.

When my daughter was younger and taking classes sometimes she'd say
she didn't want to go and I'd knee jerk say she had to. THen of
course she really didn't want to go if she didn't have a choice and
was being made to . But when I realized what I'd said and said "No,
of course you don't have to go. Classes are supposed to be fun," then
she more often than not chose to go. She just wanted it to be her
choice to make the long drive, not doing it because there was no option.

"Have to" is like a prison. Choice is a powerful tool! :-) It lets us
*choose* whatever we want.

The thing is that when we let ourselves choose, we are a lot more
conscientious than we give ourselves credit for! :-) I *can* not go
to the dump. I have chosen not to go to the dump for a couple of
weeks. I know the consequences and having experienced the
consequences is often an incentive to load up the car. Not always!
Sometimes I do still choose not to go each week and it ends up on the
porch, but just because I *can* choose to never ever go to the dump,
I never have. And I make dinner. Clean litter boxes. None of which I
"have to" do. I choose to do them because the task is less onerous
than the other choices.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kiersten Pasciak

--- In [email protected], "Kristin's Natural
Childcare" <kristin@...> wrote:
>
> "my seven year old woke up in
> the middle of the night to my four year old throwing up. Without
ever
> waking me up, she took him to the bathroom, bathed him, helped him
> brush his teeth, cleaned up the puke, and put him back to bed. I
> didn't know about it til the next morning. She didn't have to, but
> she chose to because she'd seen it modeled when she was sick a few
> days before."

I wanted to comment on this too :)
Kids DO learn what they see and how they are treated.

I was the one puking the other night (for hours)
Each of my kids, at different times woke up to see what was going on
and came to help me. My daughter just turned 3 and she brought me
her favorite doll and the blanket from when I was a baby. She tucked
them in with me. Jacob woke later and got me a water bottle and
tried to help wipe my face. Then he came to lay next to me and
cuddle. They were also very helpful the next day and played near me
while I slept in different rooms throughout the day.

Jacob was sick yesterday (same bug) and Emma kept running to get him
washcloths and offering to hold the container so he could throw up.
He wasn't really in a mood to appreciate her help, but I was glad to
see her offer.

Kiersten
mom to Jacob 4 1/2 and Emma 3

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 16, 2006, at 5:57 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> And what parents demonstrate for kids by telling the child the team
> will suffer if they quit is the technique of the ends (getting a
> child to understand how important we believe commitment is)
> justifying the means (lying to them.)

A kid whose hating it and wants to quit is usually not very good at
it - and the kid KNOWS it. So the parent is saying, "No, you can't
quit, it will hurt the team," and the poor kid knows, deep down, that
it not only won't hurt the team, but the team's overall playing is
being hurt by the kid being on it.

There can be kids who don't play well who really DO help a team, by
their attitude, by leadership, enthusiasm, and so on. So, if that is
true, the parent might point that out to the child, who might not
realize his/her own value to the team. And the teams for young kids
aren't FOR the better players only, so a kid should never be made to
feel bad if they aren't a good player. But the parents shouldn't be
telling their kid that the team "needs" them or that they'd be
"letting the team down" if it isn't really true. Doesn't help in
supporting an honest, strong parent-child relationship. AND, the
purpose of youth sports is to have fun - yes, lots of learning about
life happens on a youth sports team, but if the kid isn't having fun,
the coach and other adults are failing the kid - they've already
failed in THEIR obligation, and there is no reason to force a kid to
stay on the team when the adults in charge are not carrying through
on what they should be doing.

This may sound extreme, but the attitude of "finishing what you
start" or "honoring your commitments" is, unfortunately, the exact
attitude that keeps people in abusive marriages.

When my kids haven't wanted to continue on a sports team, we've
talked it out and tried to figure out what the kid liked about being
on the team and what wasn't working. On one team, the coach called
the kids by their last names and we have a really hard name, so every
time he wanted to call my daughter's name, he flubbed it and kind of
laughed. She was being embarrassed over and over - felt he was
laughing at her name. I told him about this - and he said, "Oh, I'm
laughing because I'm embarrassed that I can't get it right." So -
there was a critical moment - if he was willing to practice it and
get it right and stop laughing when he said it - to honor the fact
that a little girl was getting her feelings hurt - then that would be
fine. There were other things about him she wasn't liking (think
about a coach who calls little girls by their last names) but she'd
have stayed on the team if he'd shown remorse. But, no, he insisted
SHE was the one who had to get over it, she was being too sensitive,
and that once he'd explained he wasn't laughing at her, she should
just be okay. She wasn't. So she left the team.

Another year, another coach, he was having the kids run around the
track at the field where they practiced. Roya was a pretty slow
runner - and lagged behind a bit. They were 9 year old girls. When
she'd lag behind, the coach would be yelling at her from a distance,
"Get going! Don't let them beat you!" stuff that was intended to be
encouraging, I'm sure. But, some of the other girls would finish
first and then THEY would start yelling stuff, too, and it wasn't
nice. The coach's daughter was one of them and he didn't stop it. She
decided to leave the team after the first three weeks of practice,
before the games actually started. I knew we'd done the right thing
because the coach never even asked why she decided to quit. She was
slow, so he was glad to see her go, I think.

My kids have stayed ON teams even they didn't like the coach's
behavior, too. Sometimes the playing was important enough to them to
make them want to put up with stuff.

They've never "just quit." They've thought it through and made a
choice. And the impact of their behavior on others was always a part
of the mix of things considered, but it is NOT necessarily the only
consideration, by any means.


-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 15, 2006, at 5:09 PM, Trudy wrote:

> You commented in your post that your children know that you will "not
> judge them for choices" they have made. If this is the case, why
> would the mechanic be judged for his choice?

Because the mechanic is an adult who has implied he will do an adult
job and the customer is not his mom!

It will help you greatly to see how the situations are different than
how they're the same!

If your child had to sum you up in one sentence would you prefer it
to be "She made me stick with commitments," or "She loved and trusted
me unconditionally."

It's an extreme example but making a child stick with something is
part of a whole package of thinking -- a philosophy -- and that
philosophy will color our relationship with our children and how they
see us. It's part of a set of ideas that to teach children we need to
make them go through the motions until they can do the actions on
their own. And it's part of a set of ideas that children are
basically self-centered which must be trained out of them, again, by
making them *behave* as though they were not self-centered until they
can understand why we shouldn't be self-centered. And it's part of a
set of ideas that humans are only good because we're not allowed to
be bad, but if we allow a child to be "bad" (choose to quit a team
for instance, have cake for breakfast, stay up past midnight) that
they're on the slippery slope towards brathood or juvenile deliquency.

If your husband asked you to help him out, which attitude would
encourage you to put forth your best effort and go above and beyond
what he was asking: Someone who saw doing things the right way as
what was expected and failures as signs of incompetence and character
flaw? Or someone who was pleased with whatever help you could give
and helpful with what you were having problems with?

Seeing children as products to mold and shape will not help someone
unschool. It will color all our interactions and our children will
feel under the pressure of being shaped. Being under the watchful eye
of someone who only sees success when something is turning out as
they envision it needs to be is not an environment where people
flourish.

Seeing our children as entities separate from ourselves, as whole and
perfect at being whatever age they are, competent and caring, wanting
to be loved and respected, who are trying to do their best and we're
there to facilitate that *will* help unschooling. If they know that's
how we see them, if they know we trust them, then we become people
they trust and they want to be people we can trust.

It's as simple as that :-)

Does that mean a 6 yo or a 12 yo or a 15 yo will always make the
choices we feel are right just because we trust them? No, they're
still learning. They need the freedom to try choices out to see what
happens. Sometimes quitting *will* be the right thing but for
children who've been mindfully parented, the decision to quit won't
be made lightly.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 16, 2006, at 12:22 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> Because the mechanic is an adult who has implied he will do an adult
> job and the customer is not his mom!
>
> It will help you greatly to see how the situations are different than
> how they're the same!
>
> If your child had to sum you up in one sentence would you prefer it
> to be "She made me stick with commitments," or "She loved and trusted
> me unconditionally."

Hmm. I had two emails open and I think the rest that followed after
that bit was supposed to go into the other email.

Oh, well, all the ideas are interconnected! It's all about treating
our kids with trust and respect :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

> a parent would allow their child to quit a team sport

"Allowing" a child to quit is another phrase that seems like "just
semantics" and yet the thought behind it gets at the heart of
unschooling and mindful parenting.

If we think in terms of "allowing" our child to quit or "allowing" a
child to leave the dinner table, or "allowing" a child to stay up
late to watch a show, we're seeing the child and his actions as
though they were a possession. If we think in terms of the child
being our possession then the choices we "allow" ourselves will be
limited to those of a possession.

But if we view ourselves as the child's partner in learning and
exploring the world, see ourselves as their facilitator, our choices
change to ones that will not only enhance our relationship but as a
side effect help them learn better because they have the freedom --
and a support system -- to explore

(And this is where the 2nd part of that other email should have gone
but I send this anyway since it's a helpful to notice when we're
thinking in terms of our child being a possession and "letting" them
do things that as adults we take as rights and freedoms.)

Joyce

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Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 16, 2006, at 9:37 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

>> a parent would allow their child to quit a team sport
>
> "Allowing" a child to quit is another phrase that seems like "just
> semantics" and yet the thought behind it gets at the heart of
> unschooling and mindful parenting.
>
> If we think in terms of "allowing" our child to quit or "allowing" a
> child to leave the dinner table, or "allowing" a child to stay up
> late to watch a show, we're seeing the child and his actions as
> though they were a possession. If we think in terms of the child
> being our possession then the choices we "allow" ourselves will be
> limited to those of a possession.

Well - yeah. But. <G>

Parents do have the ability to force their kids to do all kinds of
things - including sitting at the dinner table or staying on a soccer
team, etc. So, it is really a straightforward fact that we DO allow
our kids to make all kinds of choices for themselves, that most
parents don't. I mean - I am "allowing" my husband to sit and watch
seemingly endless hours of uninterrupted world cup soccer. He doesn't
need my permission, but I could most definitely prevent him from
doing it (by being loud, interrupting, making demands about wanting
to use the tv, myself, etc. And yet, what a weird way to think of it,
huh?

If I said to a friend, "This month I am allowing my husband to
watch a lot of tv," my friend would think that was a very strange
thing for me to say about my husband. The radical unschoolers here
thought that was a weird thing to say about a child, too. Instead of
thinking about what I will "allow" my husband to do, I thought in
terms of how we could support his interest in watching 100 and some
soccer games in 30 days.

It is good to stop "thinking" in terms of "What will I allow my kids
to do." I agree with that, of course. Instead, that kind of thinking
can be replaced with, "How can I help my kids do what they want to do?"

Still, underneath that way of thinking and being with our kids, there
is a reality that "we" are allowing this entire lifestyle to occur -
we do have power to not allow it, and most parents use that power.

So - there are two different points - both using the word, "allow."

1. As unschooling parents we've chosen to allow a lot - we allow our
kids to not go to school, to live free of being schooled, to make
many choices such as what to eat, when to sleep, what to watch, do,
say, and on and on.

2. We don't generally think in terms of "allowing" a kid to do or not
do most things. Whether or not we will "allow" it is not the relevant
question, for us. The question is "how" we can help the kid get when
he/she wants. In doing that, we think about how we can help the child
understand all the possible repercussions of his/her decision, too.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





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Christy Mahoney

> "Allowing" a child to quit is another phrase that seems like "just
> semantics" and yet the thought behind it gets at the heart of
> unschooling and mindful parenting.

I've always wondered exactly what people mean when they say they are
going to "make" their child do something. Like how can you make a
child play a sport? I suppose you could carry him to the car and drag
him out, but you can't really make him play. If he didn't want to
play, you could persuade him to play with guilt-inducing methods or
bribery, but it is still choice to move his body :)

My daughter tends to the extreme, and I really try to use words that
let her know she has a choice.

-Christy
-

Trudy

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
Joyce, let me address some of your comments, please.

You said, "If your child had to sum you up in one sentence would you
prefer it to be "She made me stick with commitments," or "She loved
and trusted me unconditionally." I do not, in any way, see these as
mutually exclusive statements. In fact, I can imagine a grown child
saying, "I really appreciate my parents because they loved and
trusted me completely and made sure I stuck with commitments."

You said there is a belief that "if we allow a child to be "bad"
(choose to quit a team for instance, have cake for breakfast, stay up
past midnight) that they're on the slippery slope towards brathood or
juvenile deliquency."

I don't believe that. I didn't even say I wouldn't everallow my kid
to quit a team. I said, in fact, that if that case came up where
they had asked to be on a team and then during the season wanted to
quit, that we would work to determine the root cause of the child's
desire to quit (others said this, too).

You said, "Seeing our children as entities separate from ourselves,
as whole and perfect at being whatever age they are, competent and
caring, wanting to be loved and respected, who are trying to do their
best and we're there to facilitate that *will* help unschooling."

I do see my children as entities separate from myself, with a God-
given purpose which He created them for. I do not think they are
*perfect* at whatever age they are, as I don't think I'm perfect at
my age, but they are extremely valued beyond belief and treasured as
a wonderful gift. I think they are competent, and I KNOW they want
to be loved and respected, which we do.


Trudy Powell

[email protected]

Excuse me if this has been said already. Commitments and decisions
regarding them are a skill, and like any other life skill, our job as parents is to
assist our children in learning about them.

A child deciding whether or not to stay on a team is learning about the
skills required to make good commitment decisions. And they are learning these
skills when the consequences are low. I would much rather have a child learn
these skills when they are potentially letting down the softball team, not a
customer. Start small with minimal consequence and build up to more complex
situations, isn't that an ideal way to learn? Not much learning is going to
be done if the parent makes the decision for the child....not any different
than "because I said so."

What if the mechanic decided to go fishing and not work on a car because it
was his last chance to spend time with a dying loved one? Life is not black
or white, right or wrong. I like to think of mindful parenting (and
unschooling) as a way to explore the spectrum of possibilities between the two
extremes.

And I believe *this* will change the world. :)

Leslie in SC


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