Barbara Miller

I've been following some of the recent discussions with interest and have a
question. For those of you who allow your children to have total control of
whether they stay in activities, when and if they will do various things,
whether it is projects, chores, etc., how do they learn to be accountable
and self-disciplined? Like if your child got some kind of volunteer
position helping out at say, a bike shop b/c he wanted to learn more about
bikes, and he said he would work for 6 weeks, but gets bored after 2 weeks,
you would let him just quit? How does that teach them to honor their word?



They are children, but accountability/self-discipline is expected later in
life, whether you are working or staying at home and it seems like if they
don't learn it at home, they aren't going to just pop up and learn it as an
adult. And I also disagree that some people aren't lazy. Yes, you can
sometimes choose when to do things, but if you are a trash man and you don't
complete your rounds within the allotted time frame, eventually you will be
fired. Your boss won't accept "I have a different energy level." I'm pretty
sure he would call that lazy and that he won't let you take 2 extra hours to
get your job done. How can you justify that view in the work world which
our kids will be in someday?



Please know I'm not attacking anyone. I AM trying to see the other point of
view, but, um, I'm having a really hard time..? ;-)



And FWIW I did check out a few more books from the library

- Real Lives - 11 Teenagers Who Don't Go to School

- Homeschooling Our children, Unschooling Ourselves (started last
night)

- The Unschooling Handbook (I used to own this several years ago -
funny that I'm reading it again)



My husband is thinking the unschooling idea is interesting b/c he is one of
those who never did like school and well, his grades showed it. And what he
was interested in then, he now does today - computers, and more recently
video and sound. Cool, huh?



Thanks,

Barbara











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/14/06, Barbara Miller <BarbMiller@...> wrote:
>> I've been following some of the recent discussions with interest and have a
> question. For those of you who allow your children to have total control of
> whether they stay in activities, when and if they will do various things,
> whether it is projects, chores, etc., how do they learn to be accountable
> and self-disciplined?

Describe "self-disciplined" Unschooling doesn't mean unparenting. We
are invovled in our children's lives and we help them learn these
things - mostly through example. :-)

> Like if your child got some kind of volunteer
> position helping out at say, a bike shop b/c he wanted to learn more about
> bikes, and he said he would work for 6 weeks, but gets bored after 2 weeks,
> you would let him just quit? How does that teach them to honor their word?

I would do the same thing that I would do with my co-parent if he
decided that he wanted to quit something he had started. I would find
out what the root of the problem is an how I can help. Perhaps (in
this scenario) the work is boring because the shop owner isn't letting
him do the things that he invisioned doing. Perhaps the child wanted
to actually have hands on building bicycles but instead is doing other
things. This is where you can advocate for your child or help your
child advocate for themselves by giving them the right words to say.
Perhaps the interest in bicycles isn't as thrilling as he had thought.
Maybe he is working too many hours. Maybe not enough. Maybe he
would like the work if he were paid. Maybe he is confused as to what
he is supposed to be doing and needs someone to help him see past this
obstacle. There is always a root to the problem and sometimes the
problem can be corrected or changed to better reflect expectations or
desires.

One thing to think about is if you make a child finish something that
they dislike because they committed to it, what lesson are they going
to learn from that? Do you really think that they are going to learn
accountability, selfl-discipline and comitment? I think rather they
are going to learn guilt. "I have to do this because I said so.
Reminds me of a gal I knew who got married to someone she didn't love
because she promised him that she would marry him and she honored her
commitments. They were divorced within a year.




--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Christy Mahoney

> They are children, but accountability/self-discipline is expected
later in
> life,

Even if it is expected, it is still a choice. If you have a job,
you can choose to go to work or not. You know what the consequences
will be and you choose accordingly. I know that I didn't choose to
go to work based on fulfilling commitments as a child. I went to
work because I wanted that job. If I didn't go often enough or
wasn't dependable, my boss can choose to fire me. If it matters
enough to me what someone else thinks, then I may choose to do
something that I would rather not do. Like if I promised a friend
that I would go somewhere and, when the time came, I really didn't
feel like going, I would make a choice.

Even things like doing something illegal are still choices. Some
people choose to break the law and risk the punishment, but it's
still a choice.

You can give your children information about these sorts of things,
and then they can choose. If they are on a team and not enjoying
it, you can tell them (hopefully honestly) what will happen or maybe
happen if they quit. Do they have a good friend on the team that
may be disappointed? Are they in the playoffs without anyone to
fill their place? Ask them how they think they'll feel if they
quit.

Kids (heck, adults too) don't always know what they will enjoy until
they try it. I know that guilt is very powerful for me. If I was
made to feel guilty or flawed for not enjoying something that I
thought I would, I would be much more reluctant to try things in the
future to avoid that guilt.

-Christy

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 14, 2006, at 3:06 PM, Barbara Miller wrote:

> how do they learn to be accountable and self-disciplined?

Through parents being accountable to them. By experiencing us make
promises to them and keeping those promises. By talking about how
it's a lot easier to lose trust in someone than to regain it when it
comes up in life.

> Like if your child got some kind of volunteer
> position helping out at say, a bike shop b/c he wanted to learn
> more about
> bikes, and he said he would work for 6 weeks, but gets bored after
> 2 weeks,
> you would let him just quit? How does that teach them to honor
> their word?

By not getting to the age of being able to volunteer for 6 weeks
without having experienced having people depending on them for
something. A child volunteering will have lived 10, 12, 14 years with
having made promises to parents and friends, with having parents and
friends who made promises to them, with having failed to keep
promises and had people disappointed and having others fail to keep
promises to them and knowing what it feels like.

If my daughter (who is 14) wanted to quit after 2 weeks we'd talk
about it to find out what was wrong and what could be changed to fix
things. In some instances she *should* quit. It would entirely depend
on the situation. I want her to *think* about the pros and cons of
quitting (including the consequence of letting others down) not just
push through because some rule says "Never quit."

> They are children, but accountability/self-discipline is expected
> later in
> life

And children use simple words when they first learn to speak and will
be expected to have more complex speech when they're adults. Do we
make them use more complex speech in order that they learn?

> it seems like if they
> don't learn it at home, they aren't going to just pop up and learn
> it as an
> adult.

You're assuming that the only way kids learn about commitments and
obligations is by being made to go through the motions until they're
old enough to understand "better".

The consequence of that assumption is that we all have children who
are selfish and uncaring of others' feelings. And that we are so
naive to think the selfish little hellions in our home will suddenly
turn into model citizens when we release them into the world.

Think about that. Is that what you think?

If you don't -- and even if you do I'll tell you your assumption is
wrong! ;-) -- then the answer is that there's more to learning ethics
than being forced to go through the motions.

And there is! Ask! Ask how it's possible. Ask what people do and how
it works. The answers you get will be much more informative.

> And I also disagree that some people aren't lazy. Yes, you can
> sometimes choose when to do things, but if you are a trash man and
> you don't
> complete your rounds within the allotted time frame, eventually you
> will be
> fired. Your boss won't accept "I have a different energy level."

Why should someone who doesn't enjoy picking up trash make themselves
pick it up? Why is that better than quitting and finding a job they
do enjoy?

As someone said, lazy means someone is not doing what someone else
thinks they should. If they don't *want* to do what's expected of
them, they should

> How can you justify that view in the work world which
> our kids will be in someday?

So you're saying that your ambition for you child is to find a job
and stick with it even if he doesn't enjoy it?

Not every moment of life or jobs will be enjoyable Unschooled kids
understand that completely before they reach adulthood because that's
how life is naturally. We don't need to create situations for them to
experience that. Some games have irritating levels to push past.
Sometimes we have to drive a long ways to get to something they want
to do. Getting better at even fun things involves practice.

It is possible to learn about ethical behavior without being forced
to pretend ethics you don't understand. Ask! People will tell you!
And you'll get much better answers without implying that our kids are
selfish brats and we're not aware of it ;-)

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

> They are children, but accountability/self-discipline is expected
> later in life, whether you are working or staying at home and it
> seems like if they don't learn it at home, they aren't going to
> just pop up and learn it as an adult.

I've wondered about this sometimes. I never did anything as a child
or a teen that required me to stay committed past the time I wanted
to leave. When I volunteered in the church nursery, it was only as
long as I wanted to help out. When I was on the Rifle Corps
(twirling rifles), I could have quit if I wanted but I loved going.
I got my first job at the age of 15 and only worked there as long as
I wanted. In fact, I've done that at every job I've ever had. I've
never stayed at a job I hated. The only committment I can think of
that I honored was my year-long committment at being a Brownie Girl
Scout Leader when I was 33 years old. The first year was super.
The second year was really difficult and I wanted to quit halfway
through. However, I stuck with it because I just knew it was the
right thing to do. So apparently I was able to honor a committment
on my own without being forced to do so previously.

> How can you justify that view in the work world which our kids
> will be in someday?
> Barbara

My guess is that they'll stick to jobs that they feel they can
handle. For example, I have never had an interest in working in the
food industry. The idea of standing behind a counter serving
food or waiting on tables just never appealed to me. But I
absolutely loved working at the movie theater. I doubt a person who
leans towards laziness is going to have such an active job like
being a sanitation employee. I sure have known lots of secretaries,
professors, and business office employees who are lazy though! And
they drew nice salaries! :)

Beth M.

Alice Sackman

Michelle/Melbrigða wrote:
if you make a child finish something that they dislike because they
committed to it, what lesson are they going to learn from that? Do you
really think that they are going to learn
accountability, selfl-discipline and comitment? I think rather they are
going to learn guilt.

** I think our society gets confused about what they mean by
self-discipline too. When my kids were going to school (and doing
horrible I might add), I had a discussion with a counselor at the middle
school about possibly homeschooling my eldest next year. She, of
course, was horrified and offered many reasons why I shouldn't, all of
which I countered. Finally, exasperated, she said, "If you don't make
him get up and come to school everyday and do his school work, then how
will he ever learn to get up everyday to get himself to his 40 hour a
week job?? He has to learn discipline."

I didn't have an answer at the time but as I thought about it, it
occurred to me that "making" a child do something is not discipline but
obediance. Discipline is when you choose to do something, perhaps
difficult and that you don't want to do right now, because of some kind
of internal motivation. It has to come from within and you have to have
the freedom to choose not to do it but choose to do it anyway. If you
can't choose not to do it, then it isn't discipline. It's obediance. I
think the only way to "teach" this is to model it in ourselves.

And as far as the school counselor's comment goes, I hope that my
children never ever learn to force themselves into drudgery just for a
paycheck but learn to follow their hearts and do what they truly love.
-alice

Barbara Miller

Barb's old message
> it seems like if they
> don't learn it at home, they aren't going to just pop up and learn
> it as an
> adult.
**********

Joyce's reply
You're assuming that the only way kids learn about commitments and
obligations is by being made to go through the motions until they're
old enough to understand "better".

The consequence of that assumption is that we all have children who
are selfish and uncaring of others' feelings. And that we are so
naive to think the selfish little hellions in our home will suddenly
turn into model citizens when we release them into the world.

Think about that. Is that what you think?

****************

No, that wasn't my intention at all. This style of parenting in which the
kids have a lot more freedom is different than what my husband and I
practice - not that we are drill sergeants or anything, but we do have more
boundaries. I'm just trying to see how this other style works. Y'all's
responses (yes, I live in Texas - yee haw!) have been very helpful. I
appreciate you taking the time to answer. Thanks, Joyce.



Barbara







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>The consequence of that assumption is that we all have children who are selfish and uncaring of others' feelings. And that we are so naive to think the selfish little hellions in our home will suddenly turn into model citizens when we release them into the world.>>

Conor, the older of my "selfish little hellions," is 17 now. :o) He has been given the choice to drop activities if he wanted to. He's also had us right there giving him guidance and support as he made those choices. We've worked hard to be mindful of his needs and wants and have helped him understand about commitments without forcing him to follow through because it'll build his character.

Conor works part time at our family restaurant and has for 2 years now. On Wednesday afternoon right after a five hour shift he went to show younger kids in our homeschool group how to make foam swords. He had volunteered to do this last week and went even though he was incredibly tired from work. He worked with them patiently for hours. The parents offered him money for supplies but he turned it down. Today he went over to a single mom's home to help her out by cutting her grass. Again he asked for no compensation. He was happy to help.

>>If you don't -- and even if you do I'll tell you your assumption is wrong! ;-) -- then the answer is that there's more to learning ethics than being forced to go through the motions.>>

I agree!

--
~Mary, done bragging on her kid-but he was so cool this week!
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
>
> On Jun 14, 2006, at 3:06 PM, Barbara Miller wrote:
>
> > how do they learn to be accountable and self-disciplined?
>
> Through parents being accountable to them. By experiencing us make
> promises to them and keeping those promises. By talking about how
> it's a lot easier to lose trust in someone than to regain it when it
> comes up in life.
>
> > Like if your child got some kind of volunteer
> > position helping out at say, a bike shop b/c he wanted to learn
> > more about
> > bikes, and he said he would work for 6 weeks, but gets bored after
> > 2 weeks,
> > you would let him just quit? How does that teach them to honor
> > their word?
>
> By not getting to the age of being able to volunteer for 6 weeks
> without having experienced having people depending on them for
> something. A child volunteering will have lived 10, 12, 14 years with
> having made promises to parents and friends, with having parents and
> friends who made promises to them, with having failed to keep
> promises and had people disappointed and having others fail to keep
> promises to them and knowing what it feels like.
>
> If my daughter (who is 14) wanted to quit after 2 weeks we'd talk
> about it to find out what was wrong and what could be changed to fix
> things. In some instances she *should* quit. It would entirely depend
> on the situation. I want her to *think* about the pros and cons of
> quitting (including the consequence of letting others down) not just
> push through because some rule says "Never quit."
>
> > They are children, but accountability/self-discipline is expected
> > later in
> > life
>
> And children use simple words when they first learn to speak and will
> be expected to have more complex speech when they're adults. Do we
> make them use more complex speech in order that they learn?
>
> > it seems like if they
> > don't learn it at home, they aren't going to just pop up and learn
> > it as an
> > adult.
>
> You're assuming that the only way kids learn about commitments and
> obligations is by being made to go through the motions until they're
> old enough to understand "better".
>
> The consequence of that assumption is that we all have children who
> are selfish and uncaring of others' feelings. And that we are so
> naive to think the selfish little hellions in our home will suddenly
> turn into model citizens when we release them into the world.
>
> Think about that. Is that what you think?
>
> If you don't -- and even if you do I'll tell you your assumption is
> wrong! ;-) -- then the answer is that there's more to learning ethics
> than being forced to go through the motions.
>
> And there is! Ask! Ask how it's possible. Ask what people do and how
> it works. The answers you get will be much more informative.
>
> > And I also disagree that some people aren't lazy. Yes, you can
> > sometimes choose when to do things, but if you are a trash man and
> > you don't
> > complete your rounds within the allotted time frame, eventually you
> > will be
> > fired. Your boss won't accept "I have a different energy level."
>
> Why should someone who doesn't enjoy picking up trash make themselves
> pick it up? Why is that better than quitting and finding a job they
> do enjoy?
>
> As someone said, lazy means someone is not doing what someone else
> thinks they should. If they don't *want* to do what's expected of
> them, they should
>
> > How can you justify that view in the work world which
> > our kids will be in someday?
>
> So you're saying that your ambition for you child is to find a job
> and stick with it even if he doesn't enjoy it?
>
> Not every moment of life or jobs will be enjoyable Unschooled kids
> understand that completely before they reach adulthood because that's
> how life is naturally. We don't need to create situations for them to
> experience that. Some games have irritating levels to push past.
> Sometimes we have to drive a long ways to get to something they want
> to do. Getting better at even fun things involves practice.
>
> It is possible to learn about ethical behavior without being forced
> to pretend ethics you don't understand. Ask! People will tell you!
> And you'll get much better answers without implying that our kids are
> selfish brats and we're not aware of it ;-)
>
> Joyce
> Answers to common unschooling questions:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
> Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
> http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Miller <BarbMiller@...>

I've been following some of the recent discussions with interest and
have a
question. For those of you who allow your children to have total
control of
whether they stay in activities, when and if they will do various
things,
whether it is projects, chores, etc., how do they learn to be
accountable
and self-disciplined?

-=-=-

Be being ourselves, self-disciplined and accountable. They learn it by
seeing it modeled for them.

-=-=-=-=-

Like if your child got some kind of volunteer
position helping out at say, a bike shop b/c he wanted to learn more
about
bikes, and he said he would work for 6 weeks, but gets bored after 2
weeks,
you would let him just quit? How does that teach them to honor their
word?

-=-=-=-

Would you want an employee who didn't want to be there? I like
employees who LOVE their jobs, who look forward to work! I'm happy to
let go someone who was terribly unhappy.

-=-=--=-

They are children, but accountability/self-discipline is expected
later in
life, whether you are working or staying at home and it seems like if
they
don't learn it at home, they aren't going to just pop up and learn it
as an
adult.

-=-==-=-

They learn it at home and out in the world as children. They learn it
because I'm hard-working and diligent. I *like* what I do. They see
that.

Forcing someone to do something against his will doesn't make him
accountable or disciplined. It makes him sneaky and---<g>---lazy!

-=-=-=-=-

And I also disagree that some people aren't lazy.

--=-=-=-

I agree. Some people are. But not because they were treated with
respect and concern.

I think they seem lazy because they refuse to DO it any more. They
figure *they* had to do it as a child, so now someone else can do it.
It's really about a lack of respect because they were never respected.

It can also be due to depression. A person may seem lazy because she
can't get up the energy to do anything.

But I think most "laziness" is due to a lack of respect.

Respect the child. The child will respect you, himself, and others
deserving of respect.

-=-=-=-

Yes, you can
sometimes choose when to do things, but if you are a trash man and you
don't
complete your rounds within the allotted time frame, eventually you
will be
fired. Your boss won't accept "I have a different energy level." I'm
pretty
sure he would call that lazy and that he won't let you take 2 extra
hours to
get your job done. How can you justify that view in the work world
which
our kids will be in someday?

-=-=-=-

I doubt someone with a low energy level will choose a job that
requires a high level.

I have a high energy level, so I don't choose things that require a
low level (unless I'm doing two/three things at once! <g>). I'd be
bored to tears.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Please know I'm not attacking anyone. I AM trying to see the other
point of
view, but, um, I'm having a really hard time..? ;-)

-=-=--=

We understand. It's not easy. But it's simpler than you think.

-=-=-=-

My husband is thinking the unschooling idea is interesting b/c he is
one of
those who never did like school and well, his grades showed it. And
what he
was interested in then, he now does today - computers, and more
recently
video and sound. Cool, huh?

-=-=-=

Very cool. And I'm glad someone didn't force him to take a job he
would have hated!



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith


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