aroundthemilkyway

my 7 yodd loves swimming and does it everyday. recently she let me
know she would like to join a swim team which got me thinking....

how do you unschooling oldies handle when your child joins a team and
commits to it but then after a while, weather they are just not
interested anymore or it is very challenging and in their opinions too
difficult to continue and they suddenly (or not so suddenly)want to
quit?

i think that my dd would love it, but i want to be prepared just in
case. in the books i have read and websites i have checked out, i
haven't really found an answer to making a commitment to others and
then wanting to break that even though others are counting on them.
kwim? i am having a hard time (in my head) finding the balance between
honoring their opinions, thoughts and feelings and the value of
integrity in commitment.

sarah

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

One thing I've found the few times we've been involved in "team" sports is that they are very fluid entities. Many children start and don't finish.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/13/06, aroundthemilkyway <petalpollen@...> wrote:

> how do you unschooling oldies handle when your child joins a team and
> commits to it but then after a while, weather they are just not
> interested anymore or it is very challenging and in their opinions too
> difficult to continue and they suddenly (or not so suddenly)want to
> quit?
>

What do ou do when you have joined something and committed to it,
found it wasn't as interesting as you thought or very cahllenging and
in your opinion too difficult to continue and you suddenly (or not so
suddenly) want to quit? You quit! This is a time for her to learn
and stretch and grow and experience. This is not the time for her to
learn a lesson in finishing things. She will finish those things that
she finds an interest in. Plus your dd hasn't even started the team
yet, has no basis to draw a conclusion from and already you are
setting her up to quit! Go with the flow and see where it takes you.
You might find that she loves it and can't get enough of it and you
are at swim meets every weekend. Or she may find that she enjoys
swimming, but the competition doesn't do anything for her.

Mary Elayne (10yo) takes gymnastics. I was concerned how she would
handle the meets. Fortunately, they are all low competitive and
everyone gets a medal and t-shirt and gets to stand on the podium. I
was prepared for her to quit after she saw all the girls who were so
much better than she is. She surprised me in wanting to try harder
rather than quit. So I try not to second guess what my childrenn's
reaction to something will be and am flexible enough to help them
continue or quit as they need me to be.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

aroundthemilkyway

> What do ou do when you have joined something and committed to it,
> found it wasn't as interesting as you thought or very cahllenging
and
> in your opinion too difficult to continue and you suddenly (or not
so
> suddenly) want to quit? You quit!

actually, i finish rather than quit, that is just it. if i commit to
something or say i will do something, i follow through til the end or
until it is accomplished because i find value in a person's word and
i think it is important stick with it, not forever, but what the
commit was to....i think if one says they will do it and someone is
counting on them it should be done. my dh and i both really find
value in this area of social interaction and i really want to learn
what others, with this same value (i guess), are doing and have
done.

Plus your dd hasn't even started the team
> yet, has no basis to draw a conclusion from and already you are
> setting her up to quit!

i am really just trying to figure out what unschoolers do in this
situation....her thinking of joining the team simply got *me*
thinking. i believe my dd can do anything she sets her mind to and i
also believe she values others enough not to leave them hanging, but
as i was kicking around the idea of teamwork that has commitments and
unschooling, as i said, my brain is having a hard time finding the
balance in this particular situation.

sarah

aroundthemilkyway

> What do ou do when you have joined something and committed to it,
> found it wasn't as interesting as you thought or very cahllenging and
> in your opinion too difficult to continue and you suddenly (or not so
> suddenly) want to quit? You quit!

i do like how you wrote this back....it did make me think of all of it
with a slightly different angle....a good angle,one that i hope i can
really keep at the front of my mind on this journey.
sarah

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/13/06, aroundthemilkyway <petalpollen@...> wrote:
>
>
> actually, i finish rather than quit, that is just it. if i commit to
> something or say i will do something, i follow through til the end or
> until it is accomplished because i find value in a person's word and
> i think it is important stick with it, not forever, but what the
> commit was to....

But that's you and not your child. Making a child finish something
that they have started is a very schoolish idea. I like the sense of
accomplishment, but if I am miserable, not enjoying what I am doing,
resentful about doing it, then how does that impact the other people
who may be involved in that activity? Am I putting my whole heart
into it? Am I doing this for *me* or for some ideal that I have to
finish it to be a "good person?" A child continuing in a sport that
they don't enjoy isn't going to give it their all. They are going to
be resentful and that resentment may get directed towards you for
making them complete something that is miserable to them. How does
that foster a good relationship with your child, build trust and
create joy?

I find that my children tend to "flit" from one activity or interest
to another. They get completely involved in something and then leave
it to go pursue a different (or related) interest. They've tried
their hands at all kinds of things and while they were doing them they
enjoyed them. Then they tired of them or (as I like to think) got
"fulled up" of whatever it is and were ready for something different.
Maybe that's because that is how I am. I have so many different art
forms that I have dabbled or flitted in. I've done stained glass,
Ukrainian Easter Eggs, sewing, quilting, knitting, embroidery, cross
stitch, rubberstamping, scrapbooking, origami, the list just goes on
and on. I have books, magazines, website bookmarks, pictures, tools,
supplies, etc. Some of those things I continue to pursue on a regular
basis (sewing, rubberstamping, embroidery, knitting) while others I'll
pick up when I get a spark of creativity or when requested to teach a
class. And if the old addage of "I can't die, I have too much left
undone" is true then I will be immortal!

I have graciously backed out of activities that I said I wanted to do.
I don't have a problem doing that if I am truly not being a positive
aspect to whatever I am doing. I've been in groups where one person
was miserable, but they stayed with it because they "committed." It
always brings the whole group down. I can remember a lady who joined
our stamping club. She never felt "artful" and complained all the
time about how difficult everything was. All I could think was, "If
you are so miserable then don't come back!"


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

jane doe

Ahhh, swim team, a subject close to my heart... Steven
has been on a team since he was six, his eighth season
is coming up. All year round, all his choice. My
little Sarah, too. Here's what I tell people when they
ask me about swim team. It's a wonderful mix of
individuality and team sports. When they are racing,
they are doing it for themselves, responsible only to
themselves, But they are a team working together to
win a meet or in a relay. My kids love it, our world
rises and sets on practice and meets. They have to
love it, I would be bored to tears doing laps for
hours but they look forward to it and to being with
their friends. They tell me it's fun. It's their
thing. There is a huge difference in coaches and how
kids react to them though. My kids don't swim at the Y
where my dh teaches because they don't like the coach.
They say he is very rough and gruff and works them
hard and yells at them. Our coach has taught most of
"her" kids how to swim and loves them all. She is much
more laid back. Some kids like our coach, some kids
like the other coach. The "he's too strict, she's too
lenient" conversation is one we've heard a million
times because we go to both Y's. It comes down to your
daughter's personality and what she likes.

Only time will tell if your daughter likes it. If she
doesn't she can quit. Unlike a team sport no one will
be counting on her to fill a position. There's no
point in making her come to practice if she winds up
miserable doing laps for an hour (or more) every day.
And if she is unhappy and you are dragging her there
because she is "committed" I promise you all the other
mothers will be silently wishing you would just let
her quit. There is nothing worse than having to watch
a child who is so obviously unhappy. But she needs to
give it a try. Some kids, the first week or two have
to really drag themselves out of the pool at the end
of practice because they aren't used to it. If you are
worried she won't follow through try asking the coach
to let her come try it out first. And join a summer
team where the season is short (June, July, August)
and more laid back instead of jumping in in the fall
which runs Sept-March. She will win her first ribbon
and be hooked!
Wish her good luck from me---ELISA

We have a collective responsibility to the least of us-Phil Ramone

We can do no great things; only small things with great love- Mother Teresa

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Mary Alice

I have wondered about this as well. Because of my belief in commitment, I
would have a hard time not attaching strings to a question; however I would
want to ask my child and myself a few questions.

Is he/she honestly miserable or simply inconvenienced?

What about the team is not enjoyable?

Is this an attitude adjustment with which I could help, or is it something
that is only fixable by withdrawing altogether?



Because other people's goals or joys can sometimes be dependent upon our
involvement in a particular team, I think a healthy look at motives and
perspectives and priorities would not be an unreasonable request.

This is a difference between guilting them into it (which is what I would do
to myself usually) but a matter of several other things that are worth
considering (and I want to remember when I am discussing this with myself):



There is a great deal of difference between utter misery and trepidation.
While I don't think it would be worthwhile to continue to do something that
inspires suicidal tendencies, I could see the value in persevering with
something that is perhaps different? scary? boring? out of respect for the
teammates. But that must be weighed as well. Am I willing to sell my soul in
order to give respect to people I don't know over something I don't are
about? Of course not. But if it were something benign but not inspiring
that I had signed up for with my best friend, say, I would be more likely to
volunteer myself for that sort of boredom, reminding myself that it was a
finite commitment and that it was out of love. I would thing one would need
to weigh the pros and cons and see where the priorities lie, and see whose
priorities we are considering!



Boy, I hope I can remember this the next time it comes up in my life!

Mary Alice



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of aroundthemilkyway
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 4:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] team commitments (looking into the future a
bit...)



<snip>



how do you unschooling oldies handle when your child joins a team and
commits to it but then after a while, weather they are just not
interested anymore or it is very challenging and in their opinions too
difficult to continue and they suddenly (or not so suddenly)want to
quit?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 13, 2006, at 4:42 PM, aroundthemilkyway wrote:

> in the books i have read and websites i have checked out, i
> haven't really found an answer to making a commitment to others and
> then wanting to break that even though others are counting on them.
> kwim?

Here's some words:

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

Scroll down and check the menu on the right.

Coaches of 7 yos expect many will quit. They know what size to make
the teams knowing they won't have that many by the end of the season.
The middle school softball team my daughter was on last year lost
maybe half the kids that had signed up. Toward the end of the season
they were borrowing kids from the other team to fill up spaces in the
outfield until they could get enough of their own team there. Her
high school cross country and winter track teams lost members too.

The time before adulthood should be for exploring, for finding out
what they like and what they don't like. (The time after reaching
adulthood too! :-) And that will mean trying lots of things out and
dropping lots of things. If we make them stick something out that
they aren't enjoying they learn not to try things for fear of being
made to stay with it. They learn not to trust their own feelings
about something and instead learn that others know what's better for
them. They learn that being little and weak sucks and being big and
strong so you can do what you want and make others do what you want
is good. And sometimes they do learn to *act* as though they're
committed by sticking with something regardless of the bigger picture
to others and to themselves because the principle of sticking with
something overrides other more rational thought.

Being forced to stick something out isn't learning to commit to
something. It's just torture for no purpose that the child can
understand. But being in a family where the parents live the ideal of
commitments being important to them gives the child the opportunity
to understand internally what commitment means: Promising something
to a child and then working to make that happen, telling a child you
need to do "x" because you promised someone and they're counting on you,

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aroundthemilkyway

thanks for the replies, now i have a bit more to throw around in that
head of mine.
sarah

Trudy

Our youngest child, our son who is 5 years old, is playing on his first
baseball team this summer. He is really enjoying it. I think if we
came up against a situation where he was wanting to quit, we would have
to determine if it was laziness on his part (a character flaw we want
to avoid) or if there was some kind of detrimental activity going on
within the group (i.e. unfit coach, bullying children, etc.). Before
joining the team, we want the kids to know what they are committing to
for that period of time. The definition of the word "team" is "A group
of people working together in a coordinated effort; to join in
cooperative activity." In Philippians 2:4 it says, "Everyone should
look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of
others," and in the case of a team sport, unless something was going
terribly wrong, we would have them finish that particular group of
games, meets, etc. and then quit when that season is over.


Trudy Powell
Independent Watkins Assoc. #357561
http://www.WatkinsOnline.com (vanilla, spices, extracts, salves,
liniments, etc.)
http://www.mo3bk.com

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

>>laziness on his part (a character flaw we want
to avoid)
*******
Flaw? Blech. People aren't flawed, people are born perfect.
I also don't believe that there is such a thing as "Laziness". That is a very subjective word.
Everyone has different energy levels. I didn't clean any part of my house today. Is that because I am Lazy? Or could it be because I preferred to (finally) read The Sunday Paper on my deck on a beautiful warm day?

>>In Philippians 2:4 it says, "Everyone should
look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of
others,"
It seems to me that the singular comes first for a reason. How can one take care of others' interests if they can't even take care of their own?
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 14, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Trudy wrote:

> I think if we
> came up against a situation where he was wanting to quit, we would
> have
> to determine if it was laziness on his part (a character flaw we want
> to avoid)

Do you think you can make a kid less "lazy" by forcing them to do
things against their will?
Where do you think "laziness" comes from?

You might be interested in the book, "The Myth of Laziness" by Mel
Levine.


-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/14/06, Trudy <trudypowell@...> wrote:
>> Our youngest child, our son who is 5 years old, is playing on his first
> baseball team this summer. He is really enjoying it. I think if we
> came up against a situation where he was wanting to quit, we would have
> to determine if it was laziness on his part (a character flaw we want
> to avoid)

Laziness is just another way of saying, "You are not interested in
doing what I think you should be doing." Is my daughter lazy because
she is laying on the couch watching tv instead of being outside hula
hooping? Am I lazy because I want to spend the afternoon in bed with
a book? Is my co-parent lazy because he is working from home (in his
underwear I might add)? No; we just all are making choices as to what
to do with our time and energy. And besides I'm sewing something for
Dan and he got tired of undressing and redressing so he just decided
it was easier to hang out in his "skivvies." :-)

I think you may want to avoid such labels if you want to build trust
with your child.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

D Smith

"Dan and he got tired of undressing and redressing so
he just decided
it was easier to hang out in his "skivvies." :-)"

my ds informed this morning, because he recently took
up sleeping naked, 'that no one wants to see my
underwear.' i asked him where he heard that. 'daddy.'
what a funny boy!

danie

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Trudy

Goodness, I didn't realize I would be offending so many by the use of
the word "lazy". The meaning of that word is "unwilling to
work."

I am lazy sometimes, putting off things that really need to be done,
but I don't want it to be a regular part of my character day in and
day out. I think we've all known or worked in the past with people
who are characterized in that way - willing to let others do all the
laborious work, or those who jump ship when the going gets tough.
Just because we unschool doesn't mean we want our kids to think they
don't follow through with a commitment - a sport or some other
activity that they chose to be involved in in the first place and
which affects others. We're talking TEAM sports here; not an
individual thing someone decides to do which doesn't affect anyone
else.

Unschooling and all it entails doesn't mean never having to do
something you don't want to do, in my opinion. There are days where
I might not want to fix breakfast, lunch, or supper, to do laundry,
to clean up a child's vomit, the cat's poop mess after getting locked
in the van, etc., but it's gotta be done and so I do it. Why?
Because it's not just me around here - there are others to think of
(we're a "team", so to speak). We have the kids help with chores,
too - whether they want to or not. Our motto is "We're a family and
we work together to get the jobs done."

By the way, one of my daughters just laid around this afternoon
watching a movie. Is she lazy? No. I've been reading today instead
of dusting or vacuuming, straightening my office. Am I lazy? No. I
made my son clean his room because we couldn't walk through it. He
didn't choose to do it on his own and never would have, but I'm his
Mom,it really needed to be done, and I helped him some but had him
stick with it until done (diligence). Sorry if that makes someone
angry.

Lest someone think I yell at the kids and tell them they're lazy, let
me assure you I've never done so and never will; However, I will
teach them what it takes to consider others and to follow through on
choices made which do have an impact on others.


Trudy Powell
Independent Watkins Assoc. #357561
http://www.WatkinsOnline.com (vanilla, spices, extracts, salves,
liniments, etc.)
http://www.mo3bk.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 14, 2006, at 4:58 PM, Trudy wrote:

> Goodness, I didn't realize I would be offending so many by the use of
> the word "lazy". The meaning of that word is "unwilling to
> work."

No one's offended. It's discussion. It's stepping back and discussing
the concept, the *idea*, of labeling someone lazy.

If we use negative words in relation to our kids they internalize
that and can live up to those words. They become the labels we put on
them. Or they can decide we have no clue about who they are and
decide not to listen to us.

Even if we don't say the negative words to them, if the words are
there in our heads we're acting in a way towards them as if we
believe the words.

How would you feel if your husband or mom or best friend called you
lazy? Picture them saying it often. Or what if they never said it and
you overheard them talking to their friends and they described you as
lazy?

A few times might be funny and you might even agree. But after a
while it would feel as though in their minds you had been branded
with that label and they were seeing all of you through that word.

Part of what the list does is step back and look at the principles
behind what we do. Using labels and negative words for our kids will
not only damage them but damage our relationship with them. It won't
turn them in to monsters, though it might turn them lazy ;-), but it
won't enhance who they are or enhance our relationship. Thinking of a
child as lazy is one little thing but each little thing is a whittle
in the relationship between us. Life does enough whittling naturally.
We'll be doing enough whittling without realizing it. When we can
become aware of it, why whittle when we can build? :-)

> I think we've all known or worked in the past with people
> who are characterized in that way - willing to let others do all the
> laborious work, or those who jump ship when the going gets tough.

And most of the people we know have gone to school and been parenting
in conventional ways. In this society we're trained to get a job to
make money to pay the bills so we can be, so called, "successful".
How many people have you known who put a lot of thought and action
into exploring their interests to figure out their passions in life
before heading off to college or a job?

Kids will spend hours trying to beat a level on a game and yet will
drag their feet on homework. Kids will spend hours practicing free
throws and dribbling to get better at basketball and yet spend as
little time as possible studying. When I worked I would spend hours
writing computer code to make a program do as much as possible so
that I could avoid repetitious input.

Is that lazy? Or is that recognizing what is a useful use of time for
what we want to accomplish and what is a waste? They say lazy people
make the best programmers ;-) But is it lazy to have an aversion to
boring repetitious tedious work?

When we have a passion for what we're doing, we'll do what needs to
be done, even the tedious stuff because we see something better on
the other side.

If we're trapped in a job we have to mentally and physically drag
ourselves to, we're going to do as little as we can get away with.
And may in fact do even less in order *to get fired* because there's
this script in our heads that tells us we aren't allowed to quit
something we've started!

Schools are really good at teaching kids to shove down and ignore
their feelings that something is pointless and just do as they're
told. People carry that lesson into adulthood and end up in jobs they
find unfulfilling because the goal has been to make money not to find
something that you love to do.

Is that what you want for your kids? Then school might be better for
them because school is good at training them for that way of life.

But if you ask, we can tell you about something we think is better.

> Unschooling and all it entails doesn't mean never having to do
> something you don't want to do, in my opinion.

*Life* means doing things we don't enjoy to get something better.
Kids learn that just by living. We don't need to make them stick with
something they're not enjoying in order for them to learn that. Life
does that to them naturally.

We can, though, when they want to quit something, talk about what's
wrong. We can talk about the consequences of quitting and how others
will feel and what's likely to happen. (Each situation will be
different. There is no rule. Quitting a softball team after a few
attempts is different than quitting a play before opening night!) We
can talk about the things we can change to make it better. But we
don't help them learn to look at the bigger picture if we approach
them with the attitude that quitting is only a last resort and that
quitting something is a permanent black mark in our books.

If we assume our children are doing the best they can with the
information and skills they have at the moment, they will hear what
we have to say about a situation as information to help them make a
decision. They will *trust* that we're on their side. *Knowing* that
quitting is an option will let them hear our ideas on what the
advantages of sticking it out (and quitting!) are. If we approach
them with the attitude of making them stick with something because
they are [lazy, irresponsible, self-centered, immature ... if they
quit] and we need to make them do what we believe is right in order
to make them better people what we say to them will just sound like
variations of "You're not perfect." and "I won't let you quit."

If you were taking a class and after several sessions you realized it
wasn't anything like you imagined and it was draining you more than
it was filling you, which person would you rather have talk to you:
someone who was determined to find some way to make you continue
whether that be persuasion or guilt or anger or shame ... , or
someone who was a willing listener who always had good ideas on how
to fix things but you knew would be fine whether you quit or kept
going and all they wanted was for you to be happy? Which person do
you want to be remembered as by your son?

> There are days where
> I might not want to fix breakfast, lunch, or supper, to do laundry,
> to clean up a child's vomit, the cat's poop mess after getting locked
> in the van, etc., but it's gotta be done and so I do it. Why?
> Because it's not just me around here - there are others to think of
> (we're a "team", so to speak).

That's the conventional way. It's not news to anyone here. Most of us
have been there, done that or grown up with it.

We're talking about looking at life in a way that's beyond pushing
through the moment because you "have to." We've found what we are
certain is a better way to be with our families. And if you ask,
people will tell you about it. :-)

But if you came to tell us about conventional parenting, we already
know!

> made my son clean his room because we couldn't walk through it. He
> didn't choose to do it on his own and never would have, but I'm his
> Mom,it really needed to be done, and I helped him some but had him
> stick with it until done (diligence). Sorry if that makes someone
> angry.

Disagreement isn't the same thing as anger. I'm not angry at you for
making your son clean is room. But I bet your son felt some anger and
resentment towards you! And I am sad that society sees that as
justified and a good practice. And I am sad that you will either 1)
have to do a lot of work to see beyond those ingrained ideas of what
is supposedly fact about how children must be related to or 2) leave
because you're certain we must be clueless parents of brats who can't
see the obvious (wisdom of conventional parenting) and there's
nothing you can learn here.

Just because I disagree with the conventional practice of making a
child clean his room *doesn't* mean that the only two options are
making him or not making him. Ask and people will tell you.

Picture *choosing* to make a child unhappy as a withdrawal from our
relationship with our kids and *choosing* to make a child happy as a
deposit. One day I realized that I was making permanent withdrawals
for something temporary (a clean living room).

No matter how much my husband valued a clean garage floor, he
couldn't make me value it too by making me clean it. We assume that
just because we're certain our values and ideas are right, that our
kids will see the error of their ways and realize we're right if we
just make them.

There *are* other choices!

> Lest someone think I yell at the kids and tell them they're lazy, let
> me assure you I've never done so and never will;

The discussion shouldn't be about you. It should be about ideas.

Does the *idea* of thinking about a child as being lazy help a parent
move closer to unschooling? No, so when it comes up, that idea gets
discussed.

Will the *idea* of making our children do chores enhance our
relationship and build their trust in us? Again, no.

But just like most people imagine that if you drop school that means
doing "nothing", dropping making our kids do things isn't the same as
doing nothing.

Here's a bit from the list description:

>> Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find
>> out how unschooling works in real families.

Ask! Ask us how we make it work rather than assuming we're totally
blind to our lazy irresponsible children's behavior because we're
stuck on some rule that says "Let them do whatever they want."

In *all* new endeavors that we learn about it's always best to assume
the people have the same values and to *ask* how they avoid what
conventional wisdom says should happen.

Here's another bit:

>> this is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become
>> deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our
>> entire lives.

Question, yes! Ask us how it can work if we aren't doing what society
insists we need to.

Ponder what we say and ask more questions.

Just as we've thrown out school for something better that works,
we've thrown out conventional parenting practice for something better
than works! And just as throwing out school doesn't mean throwing out
learning, throwing out conventional parenting doesn't mean throwing
out parenting. We're there *with* our kids, helping them, talking to
them about life, helping them solve problems.

Ask!

>> come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with
>> in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful
>> unschooling lifestyle!

We all have the same issues as you do. Ask what we do instead.
Unschoolers will share.

> However, I will
> teach them what it takes to consider others and to follow through on
> choices made which do have an impact on others.

To unschool it helps to drop the *idea* of having to teach them
anything. Unschoolers help them *learn*.

Unschooling is more than substituting the word learn for teach,
though. We don't see the need to pour information (or behavior) into
them. We are their partners, helping them navigate the world, helping
them get what they want. We do kids a disservice to assume they don't
care about others feelings. They're kids. Their feelings and outlook
*will* be different. If we treat them as doing the best they can with
the skills, outlook and information they have, they will see us as
their partners in helping them make better and better decisions. IF
we treat them as less than adults, they'll see us as their molders
and trainers, and just as adults would, they'll do what they can to
avoid the molding and training in order to try things out for
themselves.

At 14 my daughter is polite and thoughtful. She thinks of other
people when making decisions because that's how she's been treated:
I've tried to think of her when making decisions.

There's more to unschooling than just not doing school. To make it
flourish we need to look at ourselves, our relationship, the way we
look at the world in a new way to clear out the thinking that's
holding us back.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/14/06, Trudy <trudypowell@...> wrote:
>

> Goodness, I didn't realize I would be offending so many by the use of
> the word "lazy". The meaning of that word is "unwilling to
> work."


Laziness is still a perception from someone else's viewpoint. Someone
else may view that I am lazy because I didn't pick the scraps of
fabric from my sewing project yesterday. I view it as "I'm still
going to have more scraps there today and I'll pick them up when I do
an overall sweeping."

>
> I am lazy sometimes, putting off things that really need to be done,
> but I don't want it to be a regular part of my character day in and
> day out.

Again it is perception. Did you *really* *need* to do what you
didn't? Obviously not because life continued without doing that
thing. You made a CHOICE about what you wanted to do - how you wanted
to expend your energy. How you CHOOSE to live your life and how YOU
CHOOSE do describe yourself is all in your control.


I think we've all known or worked in the past with people
> who are characterized in that way - willing to let others do all the
> laborious work, or those who jump ship when the going gets tough.

We are talking about children here who have learned work ethics from
example not from being forced to do things. And I would look at
"lazy" people from the examples you provided and wonder why they were
there in the first place. I don't worry about whether someone else is
pulling their own weight. I worry only about whether I am making the
right choices for me. Someone who chooses not to work or pull through
may not have a job tomorrow. For some people that is important. For
others not so.

> Unschooling and all it entails doesn't mean never having to do
> something you don't want to do, in my opinion. There are days where
> I might not want to fix breakfast, lunch, or supper, to do laundry,
> to clean up a child's vomit, the cat's poop mess after getting locked
> in the van, etc., but it's gotta be done and so I do it. Why?

Because you made a choice to. We don't clean up a child's vomit or a
cat's poop because we HAVE to. We do it because we CHOOSE to. We
CHOOSE to not smell vomit or poop. We do laundry because we CHOOSE to
have clean clothes. We fix meals because we CHOOSE to feed ourselves
and our family. And there are plenty of times that I have CHOSEN not
to make meals and declared that tonight is a "Whatever Night." (IOW -
Whatever you choose to make you get to eat.) It doesn't mean I am
lazy, it means that I have CHOSEN to do other things.


> Because it's not just me around here - there are others to think of
> (we're a "team", so to speak). We have the kids help with chores,
> too - whether they want to or not. Our motto is "We're a family and
> we work together to get the jobs done."

So you truly aren't unschooling. Forcing a child to do something
whether they want to or not is a very schoolish philosophy. Children
in school have to do assignments or they are labeled, wow here it
comes, lazy! My children help around the house because they CHOOSE
to. I'll ask someone to help me with something, but they have the
option of saying no or not now. They help because they desire to not
because I made them. There are very few "have to's" in an unschooling
family. I insist that they breathe and that their hearts continue to
pump. :)

>
> By the way, one of my daughters just laid around this afternoon
> watching a movie. Is she lazy? No. I've been reading today instead
> of dusting or vacuuming, straightening my office. Am I lazy? No.

See you made choices.

I
> made my son clean his room because we couldn't walk through it. He
> didn't choose to do it on his own and never would have, but I'm his
> Mom,it really needed to be done, and I helped him some but had him
> stick with it until done (diligence). Sorry if that makes someone
> angry.

And here you made a choice for someone else. If it is your son's room
isn't he the one who should choose how the room is? You can't walk
around in my son's room either. It drives me up the wall. You know
what I do? I close the door when company comes over. He manages. He
knows where things are (mostly) and it hasn't killed him. If he runs
out of clean clothes and wants help gathering some up I will help him.
But the choice to clean his room is his. That isn't to say that I
won't help him when he asks.

>
> Lest someone think I yell at the kids and tell them they're lazy, let
> me assure you I've never done so and never will; However, I will
> teach them what it takes to consider others and to follow through on
> choices made which do have an impact on others.
>

And you can do that without forcing them to do chores or stay in
something that is terribly uncomfortable for them.


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Manisha Kher

--- Trudy <trudypowell@...> wrote:

>
> Unschooling and all it entails doesn't mean never
> having to do
> something you don't want to do, in my opinion.
Yes, but only if that unpleasant thing that I have to
do is a part of some bigger goal that _I_ have chosen
and do want. I do laundry because I want to have clean
clothes. I don't like to iron, so I don't.

I can honestly say that after leaving school I haven't
done anything that I didn't want to do that didn't fit
my goals. And I've been out of school for a long time
and have what most would consider a successful career.
The same principle applies at work also. I do have to
do some boring stuff that I dislike, but it is part of
a bigger project. If more than a third of my work fell
into that category of things I have to do that I don't
want to, I will quit and find something I like better.

Manisha


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Manisha Kher

--- Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:

> They
> say lazy people
> make the best programmers ;-)

So that's the secret of my success and all this time I
thought it was because I was smart ;-)

Manisha, the lazy programmer :-)



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Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 14, 2006, at 1:58 PM, Trudy wrote:

> Lest someone think I yell at the kids and tell them they're lazy, let
> me assure you I've never done so and never will; However, I will
> teach them what it takes to consider others and to follow through on
> choices made which do have an impact on others.

I asked a couple of questions in response to your post. The questions
are intended to get at the idea of "lazy" a bit more - in order to
see whether or not we might really differ in our ideas of how kids
should be treated, even though our goal seems the same. I'm happy to
report that my kids (21, 18, and 15) are really considerate people
and most definitely regularly consider the impact their choices might
have on others. There are things I could say about how they have
gotten this way - but I kind of wanted to see if maybe our starting
point - our underlying belief about human nature is really different
in these two areas (1) how kids respond to being made to do things
and (2) where laziness comes from in the first place.

Here they are again.

Do you think you can make a kid less "lazy" by forcing them to do
things against their will?

Where do you think "laziness" comes from?


--pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

Pam –

Thanks for your questions. I'll see if I can accurately explain what
I mean (please bear with me).

First let me describe what I would consider to be "lazy" behavior.
Some earlier seemed to imply that I said (which I did not) that if
one chose to sit around and read a book instead of doing dishes, then
that's laziness or if someone stayed home from work and ran around in
their underwear then that was laziness. That's not what I meant. I
would say that laziness becomes a true state mostly when others are
involved and that it (laziness) can be a very close cousin to
selfishness. The way someone could be characterized as lazy, in my
opinion, would be when one would choose to let others continually
complete all tasks and do all the labor but benefit without ever
offering help or assistance.

Let me explain further with some PRETEND scenarios (others earlier
seemed to think I was giving real scenarios during these
discussions). I had previously mentioned that there could be
instances where a co-worker at a job situation consistently does not
complete tasks, causing others to do more work than they would have
otherwise. In most instances such a person would eventually be
fired. There are often cases, however, where this is not true and
the person continues to show up, not really contribute, but draw the
same wages, benefits, etc. as others without being terminated. I
would consider this person lazy. Are they and unhappy, dissatisfied,
unfulfilled person? Yes, probably. Does this make their actions (or
lack of) justifiable? Not in my opinion. Their actions have
impacted others in a negative way and they are benefiting
(selfishness).

Another PRETEND scenario. It's summer and most folks have lawns that
need to be mowed about once a week. Most people choose to keep their
yards looking well-groomed because they enjoy it and out of courtesy
to their neighbors. There could be a family, however, in a
neighborhood that does not consider yard work a priority and it gets
to the point that the grass is so high that you can barely see the
house. Because a next-door neighbor has their own house on the
market, they offer - and are allowed – to mow the yard. In fact,
the residents are more than happy to let the neighbor do so as they
don't like to do it (too hot, hard, would rather watch movies, etc.)
Would I consider this lazy behavior? Yes, because their actions have
impacted others in a negative way.

You asked if I think once can make a kid less lazy by forcing them to
do things against their will. No. I do think, however, that by
sometimes requiring that certain things be done that kids can learn
the satisfaction that comes from a task completed (i.e. cleaning a
closet, folding laundry and seeing the nice pile of clean clothes,
etc.) I also think that they can be shown that as people work
together to get work, chores, tasks (whatever one wishes to call it)
done that they are a valuable part of that process and their input
really made a difference, and we had a great time in the process.

You asked where I think laziness comes from. I would suppose that it
comes from one discovering that they are rewarded in some way,
whether it be physically or emotionally whether they have taken part
or not. I think many people require, due to circumstances beyond
their control, some kind of government assistance or help in the form
of a welfare check or food stamps. I also think there are many able-
bodied people who choose to accept the help without putting forth the
effort to work. Again, not in all cases, but I think a lot of that
goes on. I would consider this laziness and these people are
ultimately being rewarded for it.

Some have suggested that there is no such thing as laziness – that
it's a "myth". Is unkindness, unhappiness, impatience,
industriousness, helpfulness, kindness a myth? Again, I am NOT
saying that procrastination is laziness. However a continual
practice of letting others do the work (whatever that may be) while
still being rewarded for that behavior could result in laziness.

I have gotten the impression over the past few days of these
discussions that many here are somehow resentful of their own
upbringings and feel that they were required to do too much or
somehow resented their family (parents) for it. I must say that I
have very fond memories of my childhood. I have a twin sister, and
she always shared a room (and a bed), and Dad would sometimes come in
on a Saturday morning and wake us up and say, "Come on, girls, we're
going to help Mom and get some work done around here today."" Did I
want to get up? No way - I've never been a morning person. Do I
resent it? Not in the least. Would I have chosen as a 9- or 10-year-
old girl to get up early on a Saturday and start vacuuming and
dusting? I can't say I would have, but it helped my Mom, Dad said
we were going to, and for some strange reason we're all very close
and so far no ugly resentment monsters have reared their heads. I
think they're great!

One last thing…a TRUE scenario this time. Our two daughters have
asked all week if we could go this afternoon to the library to a
story time there, during which a local TV news personality will be
reading. I told them yes, we could go, and they're very excited.
While we were discussing it a while ago, my 5-year-old son all of a
sudden said, "I don't want to go. I don't like to do that" (which
was the first I'd heard that). I asked him what he would rather do.
He said he'd rather go explore in the woods or be outside. I
said, "I was just in the woods this morning picking raspberries; why
didn't you come out with me?" His response, "I didn't want to pick
raspberries." He is 5. I can't leave him here alone. I have
promised his sisters that we're going. He is going to have to do
something he does not want to do in the interest of others because he
is part of our family. Knowing him as I do, I think he will
thoroughly enjoy himself once there; just as I often enjoy something
that I initially have dreaded.

Sorry this is so long.


Trudy Powell

Manisha Kher

--- Trudy <trudypowell@...> wrote:

> You asked if I think once can make a kid less lazy
> by forcing them to
> do things against their will. No. I do think,
> however, that by
> sometimes requiring that certain things be done that
> kids can learn
> the satisfaction that comes from a task completed
> (i.e. cleaning a
> closet, folding laundry and seeing the nice pile of
> clean clothes,
> etc.)
My kids have experienced the satisfaction from
completing a task, that they chose themselves. I have
not felt the need to require them to do a task for
them to experience the satisfaction.

> I also think that they can be shown that as
> people work
> together to get work, chores, tasks (whatever one
> wishes to call it)
> done that they are a valuable part of that process
> and their input
> really made a difference, and we had a great time in
> the process.
I agree with what you say about working together. I do
try to involve my kids in working with me to fold
laundry, pick up the room or whatever. But most of the
time the word chore is used to mean a task that is
assigned to the kid by the parent. The kid has no say
in it. There is a big difference between saying "let's
pick up these toys, so you'll have more room to play
in" versus "Go clean your room".

Manisha


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[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Trudy <trudypowell@...>

Our youngest child, our son who is 5 years old, is playing on his
first
baseball team this summer. He is really enjoying it. I think if we
came up against a situation where he was wanting to quit, we would
have
to determine if it was laziness on his part (a character flaw we want
to avoid) or if there was some kind of detrimental activity going on
within the group (i.e. unfit coach, bullying children, etc.). Before
joining the team, we want the kids to know what they are committing to
for that period of time. The definition of the word "team" is "A group
of people working together in a coordinated effort; to join in
cooperative activity." In Philippians 2:4 it says, "Everyone should
look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of
others," and in the case of a team sport, unless something was going
terribly wrong, we would have them finish that particular group of
games, meets, etc. and then quit when that season is over.


-=-=-=-

This advice is taking the sport more seriously than the child.

I hope none of you will accept this as unschooling/gentle parenting
advice.

Learning that you have no choice and must finish what you start can
hinder participation in future sports/endeavors. Better to learn how to
gracefully exist than to stay because you feel you *have* to.

I don't like that the parents are making the determinations. It should
be up to the child.

And the "character flaw" of "laziness" is just plain creepy. "Terribly
wrong" should be as simple as the child not liking the sport or
teammates or coach or heat.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith


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Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 16, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Trudy wrote:

> Pam �
>
> Thanks for your questions. I'll see if I can accurately explain what
> I mean (please bear with me).
>
> First let me describe what I would consider to be "lazy" behavior.
> Some earlier seemed to imply that I said (which I did not) that if
> one chose to sit around and read a book instead of doing dishes, then
> that's laziness or if someone stayed home from work and ran around in
> their underwear then that was laziness.

Okay - that's why I asked, because I think most people do say,
"lazy," when people are goofing off, lying around, not "doing
something" that the other person thinks they ought to be doing. So -
we're clear that that is not what you mean, right?

> That's not what I meant. I
> would say that laziness becomes a true state mostly when others are
> involved and that it (laziness) can be a very close cousin to
> selfishness. The way someone could be characterized as lazy, in my
> opinion, would be when one would choose to let others continually
> complete all tasks and do all the labor but benefit without ever
> offering help or assistance.

The dictionary definition of lazy doesn't really include that kind of
selfish implication:

Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness.
Slow-moving; sluggish: a lazy river.
Conducive to idleness or indolence: a lazy summer day.
Depicted as reclining or lying on its side. Used of a brand on
livestock.
But my point here isn't to define the word - but to understand each
other better. And I think I do understand better, now, what you are
referring to, although I think it is something beyond "lazy."

I don't see the problem aspect of this as being laziness, but as
being selfishness. In your first example that follows, I'd say the
problem might not be that the worker is lazy, he might be quite a
high-energy active person who does all kinds of things, outside of
work. The problem is that he's dishonest - he's shirking work and
getting paid for it. Do you see that "lazy" might be a misleading
label? In your example in the later paragraph, for example, the
problem isn't that the people are too "lazy" to mow their lawn, they
might be VERY energetic and active people who are very (nonlazily)
working hard on something else! The problem is that they aren't being
considerate of their neighbors.

>
> Let me explain further with some PRETEND scenarios (others earlier
> seemed to think I was giving real scenarios during these
> discussions). I had previously mentioned that there could be
> instances where a co-worker at a job situation consistently does not
> complete tasks, causing others to do more work than they would have
> otherwise. In most instances such a person would eventually be
> fired. There are often cases, however, where this is not true and
> the person continues to show up, not really contribute, but draw the
> same wages, benefits, etc. as others without being terminated. I
> would consider this person lazy. Are they and unhappy, dissatisfied,
> unfulfilled person? Yes, probably.


> Does this make their actions (or lack of) justifiable?

Big question - sometimes yes, sometimes no, I suppose. The problem
with these scenarios is that we're talking about adults - not our own
children. If we're talking about our own children, the question is
not one of their actions being "justifiable" or not - it is how can
we help them become honest, caring, responsible people.

> Not in my opinion. Their actions have
> impacted others in a negative way and they are benefiting
> (selfishness).
>
Agreed. And, most likely, I'd judge them, as you are, as selfish and
they aren't people I'd choose to be around. (I'm hedging a little
because I can think of times that I wouldn't judge them, I'd work
around them and help them out - situations where the person is
clearly suffering from untreated mental illness, for example, or
situations where person has had a terrible trauma and is suffering
post-traumatic stress and is getting better, but needs time. If
you're saying we don't want our kids to grow up like them, then,
yeah, I think most of us probably agree on that.

> Another PRETEND scenario. It's summer and most folks have lawns that
> need to be mowed about once a week. Most people choose to keep their
> yards looking well-groomed because they enjoy it and out of courtesy
> to their neighbors. There could be a family, however, in a
> neighborhood that does not consider yard work a priority and it gets
> to the point that the grass is so high that you can barely see the
> house. Because a next-door neighbor has their own house on the
> market, they offer - and are allowed � to mow the yard. In fact,
> the residents are more than happy to let the neighbor do so as they
> don't like to do it (too hot, hard, would rather watch movies, etc.)
> Would I consider this lazy behavior? Yes, because their actions have
> impacted others in a negative way.

Yeah - that isn't really what "lazy" means, though. The "lazy river"
at the water park is a slow-moving, meandering river - not a selfish
river. So - maybe this conversation would all make a little more
sense and be more enlightening if we agree that what you're talking
about is self-centeredness, lack of empathy, lack of consideration,
etc., something more than "lazy."

>
> You asked if I think once can make a kid less lazy by forcing them to
> do things against their will. No. I do think, however, that by
> sometimes requiring that certain things be done that kids can learn
> the satisfaction that comes from a task completed (i.e. cleaning a
> closet, folding laundry and seeing the nice pile of clean clothes,
> etc.)

I VERY much do agree that doing jobs and getting that sense of
satisfaction from a task well done IS really a wonderful thing. I
don't think force/requirement is at all conducive to engendering that
great feeling though. Typically, required tasks are more likely to be
completed with as little enthusiasm and caring as possible. Typically
people just "get it done" and take the easy way out. At worst, the
tasks are completed resentfully and the attitude is not at all what
we're hoping to develop.

> I also think that they can be shown that as people work
> together to get work, chores, tasks (whatever one wishes to call it)
> done that they are a valuable part of that process and their input
> really made a difference, and we had a great time in the process.

Yes. And this is FAR more likely to be how things work out when the
tasks are not coerced/required/forced, but when the family works
together voluntarily. I wonder if you were thinking that our kids do
NOT help out, don't work together to get work done, are not a
valuable part of the process, with input that makes a difference?
I've spent a whole lot of time with a bunch of unschooling families -
the kids are usually amazingly helpful. They JUMP up to help out.
True example - I was at Sandra Dodd's house - we were sitting around
half watching tv, half talking - her 14 yo was looking for a certain
shirt and Sandra suggested she look down in the basement, in the
laundry area. She found it there AND she noticed a load of clean
laundry in the dryer and she carried it upstairs to us and we all sat
there and folded laundry, having a blast. It wasn't Holly's job. It
wasn't required. It was just something that she noticed needed to be
done and she did it without giving it a whole lot of thought. In a
family with assigned chores, it would probably not have been Holly's
turn to do laundry and she'd have left it sitting in the dryer,
waiting for the assigned person to take care of it.

>
> You asked where I think laziness comes from. I would suppose that it
> comes from one discovering that they are rewarded in some way,
> whether it be physically or emotionally whether they have taken part
> or not.

This view of human nature is a little different than mine - i don't
think of people as being "conditioned" by rewards and punishments, so
much as I used to, years ago. I think there is far more complexity in
the problems/behaviors. For example, in the following examples you
give, able-bodied people taking welfare, there is far more than
"laziness" involved - it is more likely to be a sense of
incompetence, inadequacy, lack of trust and sense of self, lack of
pride and even self-loathing. (I'm also excluding, as I am sure you
were, people who simply have had a run of bad luck and are taking
needed help to get themselves through.)

> I think many people require, due to circumstances beyond
> their control, some kind of government assistance or help in the form
> of a welfare check or food stamps. I also think there are many able-
> bodied people who choose to accept the help without putting forth the
> effort to work. Again, not in all cases, but I think a lot of that
> goes on. I would consider this laziness and these people are
> ultimately being rewarded for it.

So - extending this - are you thinking that kids end up lazy because
they are rewarded for it?
I'd like to have a separate conversation about this, perhaps, because
it is a view of human nature shared by MANY people - and I used to be
among them. But I've come to think, over many years, that it is a too-
narrow view of human nature - makes humans seem not much more than
really smart animals. But I don't think that is true - I think people
have inborn traits that make us different - and we respond to far
more than Pavlovian-style operant conditioning. We aren't nearly as
"trainable" as people like B.F.Skinner would have led us to believe.
A great book on this subject is Alfie Kohn's newest - "Unconditional
Parenting."


>
> Some have suggested that there is no such thing as laziness � that
> it's a "myth".

I don't think that "laziness" is a useful concept as applied to
children. Whether adults have learned to be lazy - in the selfish
negative way you've defined it? I'm not really equipped to say much
about that. But children are not lazy - they are born with an innate
desire to do well, to contribute, to be productive, to be part of
their community, and so on. That only needs to be supported and
nurtured - they do not need to be "trained" not to be lazy through
rewards, praise, positive reinforcement, or punishment.

> Is unkindness, unhappiness, impatience,
> industriousness, helpfulness, kindness a myth?

None of those are "lazy." Maybe <G>. Unkindness is often not
intentional, especially in children. So although the result may seem
unkind, it is very often the case that the child is not an unkind
child. Often the child simply hasn't yet developed enough empathetic
ability, yet, to understand that their own behavior is unkind. They
learn that, over time, by being supported in kindness, being treated
kindly, and by parents who talk with them about how other people are
likely to be feeling. You don't create kindness in a child by forcing
them to do kind things. Unhappiness is real, for sure. It is often
the result of kids being treated as if they are "lazy" and the real
reasons for their behavior are discounted or ignored - often, in
school, these are real learning differences and expectations that are
unrealistic. Industriousness - kids are born with temperaments and
there are those who are more "active" and others more "passive" - so
maybe industriousness comes under that? But, if you want a kid to
learn to be less industrious, calling them lazy is probably going to
work. Helpfulness - is real, of course, in concrete ways and in
attitude.

> Again, I am NOT
> saying that procrastination is laziness. However a continual
> practice of letting others do the work (whatever that may be) while
> still being rewarded for that behavior could result in laziness.

So - again - it is being rewarded for shirking that you think leads
to laziness?

>
> I have gotten the impression over the past few days of these
> discussions that many here are somehow resentful of their own
> upbringings and feel that they were required to do too much or
> somehow resented their family (parents) for it. I must say that I
> have very fond memories of my childhood.

I had a wonderful childhood - not oppressive at all. I totally model
my own parenting on my mother - she'd have unschooled us if she'd
known about it, I'm sure. She was a total supporter of it - thought
it was a natural extension of the way young children ought to be
treated.

> I have a twin sister, and
> she always shared a room (and a bed), and Dad would sometimes come in
> on a Saturday morning and wake us up and say, "Come on, girls, we're
> going to help Mom and get some work done around here today."" Did I
> want to get up? No way - I've never been a morning person. Do I
> resent it? Not in the least. Would I have chosen as a 9- or 10-year-
> old girl to get up early on a Saturday and start vacuuming and
> dusting? I can't say I would have, but it helped my Mom, Dad said
> we were going to, and for some strange reason we're all very close
> and so far no ugly resentment monsters have reared their heads. I
> think they're great!

However, you do seem to think that kids won't voluntarily and
spontaneously help around the house - you think they have to be
required to do so, right? So - although you don't feel resentful over
being made to work, yourself, you are finding it hard to believe that
it isn't necessary. I can say to my kids, "Hey, let's all get up
early tomorrow and clean the house from top to bottom." They might,
and have, said, "Yes, good idea." But they might also say, "NAH - not
tomorrow morning - I want to stay up really late tonight. Can we do
it later?" We've had LOTS and lots of times that we all worked
together and cleaned for a few hours - and enjoyed the end result!
But that is a lot more fun and valuable when they do it voluntarily -
because it DOES feel good to work together and because the

I don't want my husband waking me up early on Saturday morning
because HE decided it was cleaning day and I would not do that to my
kids, either. I can only imagine how I'd react if my husband tried it
<G>. I think it is modeling rudeness and that might makes right.

>
> One last thing�a TRUE scenario this time. Our two daughters have
> asked all week if we could go this afternoon to the library to a
> story time there, during which a local TV news personality will be
> reading. I told them yes, we could go, and they're very excited.
> While we were discussing it a while ago, my 5-year-old son all of a
> sudden said, "I don't want to go. I don't like to do that" (which
> was the first I'd heard that). I asked him what he would rather do.
> He said he'd rather go explore in the woods or be outside. I
> said, "I was just in the woods this morning picking raspberries; why
> didn't you come out with me?" His response, "I didn't want to pick
> raspberries." He is 5. I can't leave him here alone. I have
> promised his sisters that we're going. He is going to have to do
> something he does not want to do in the interest of others because he
> is part of our family. Knowing him as I do, I think he will
> thoroughly enjoy himself once there; just as I often enjoy something
> that I initially have dreaded.

So - we work things out. You drop them at the library and take him
over to a local park. Or you offer to get him ice cream on the way
home. Or whatever.... That's family dynamics, people spending time,
making an effort, to find a mutually agreeable solution to a conflict
of interest. We don't just say, "Well too bad, you have to go." EVEN
if it ends up that he goes reluctantly, you will have modeled being
extremely solution-oriented and being extremely willing to consider
his interests. Those translate into things like industriousness and
kindness, as you mentioned up above.

>
> Sorry this is so long.
>
No - good details and the only way to really come to understand
difference of opinion.

>
> Trudy Powell
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Trudy <trudypowell@...>

However, I will teach them what it takes to consider others and to
follow through on
choices made which do have an impact on others.

-=-=-=-

How will you teach them that?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Trudy

Pam -

Okay, here's the absolute truth of the matter...

Our kids do not attend public school - never have. The kids never
set an alarm clock to get up, and they often stay up very late if
we're outside together in the garden or watching a good video
together. They are free to spend their days learning and exploring.
They will sometimes collect rocks, hold chickens, ride their bikes,
listen to their bird call CD, take care of pets. They ask me
questions, we research, we read, we learn, we have fun. We don't
schedule learning - it happens. In this way, we are unschoolers.

Here are where our paths diverge:

I think it's perfectly fine for me to be standing at the sink washing
dishes and as my 5-year-old son runs by playing to say, "Hey, Braden,
I need you to get me a couple of trash bags out and bring them over
here, please." I don't say, "Braden, if it's okay with you and if
you CHOOSE to do so, and if it won't hurt you to be REQUIRED to do
this, could you please bring Mommy two trash bags?" If I ask him to
please get them for me and he continues on his merry way and does not
CHOOSE to help me, he will be in trouble; not because he's a little
brat but because he needs to know it was wrong to ignore someone who
asked for help and that he should have been considerate of that. Why
would he do this? He is a child and they are not always
automatically considerate of others. They will learn it as the years
go on, but when small need to be shown and told.

After I told you how I perceive the concept of laziness, you
said, "The dictionary definition of lazy doesn't really include that
kind of selfish implication," and then you listed what the definition
of lazy was, which includes:

Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness.
Slow-moving; sluggish: a lazy river.
Conducive to idleness or indolence: a lazy summer day.
Depicted as reclining or lying on its side. Used of a brand on
livestock.

Doesn't this fit with the scenarios I gave? Being "resistant to work
or exertion"? In fact, the definition of the word "indolent" itself
is "disliking or avoiding work; idle; lazy; causing little or no
pain." This can be selfish behavior if others are impacted and
suffer for it. Whatever name one want to give to the behavior, it is
not good manners and not a character trait I want to model or to see
develop in our children.

You said, "You do seem to think that kids won't voluntarily and
spontaneously help around the house - you think they have to be
required to do so, right?" NO, NO, NO! I never said that. My
children daily come and ask if they can help with this or that. But
please realize, they are ages 8, 7, and 5, and because of their ages
they do have be told/reminded/asked/encouraged and yes, sometimes
required to do things that need to be done. If I carry up a couple of
basketfuls of clean clothes and the girls are watching a movie or
something and I say, "Here, please get these folded," I don't believe
their childhood world is going to come crashing down around them.
Because we're a homeschooling family, our entire lives are centered
around doing things together, learning together, and working
together.

I know this will shock and horrify some, but I will REQUIRE the kids
to take a shower/bath tomorrow, I will REQUIRE they brush their teeth
before bed tonight, I will REQUIRE they help clean off the table if
they forget and start to walk away, and I will REQUIRE that they
periodically clean their room. We REQUIRE these things because we
love them, not to suppress their ability to choose and not to ruin
their lives.

I know I have not (and will not) arrive at the same level
of "unschooling consciousness" as most on this board, but we're all
doing what we think is best and learning in the process.



Trudy Powell

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 16, 2006, at 6:26 PM, Trudy wrote:

> If I ask him to
> please get them for me and he continues on his merry way and does not
> CHOOSE to help me, he will be in trouble; not because he's a little
> brat but because he needs to know it was wrong to ignore someone who
> asked for help and that he should have been considerate of that. Why
> would he do this? He is a child and they are not always
> automatically considerate of others. They will learn it as the years
> go on, but when small need to be shown and told.

This is where we disagree. I *know* kids don't need to be told and
shown (and made obviously from your example) because I haven't made
my daughter do what I ask and she's very considerate of my feelings.
Others have changed from the way you do it to mindful parenting and
their kids have become more considerate. Genuinely considerate rather
than acting considerate.

If we treat their needs with respect they will come to treat our
needs with respect.

If we treat what they're doing and their requests as important --
even if *we* don't understand the importance-- they will treat our
requests as important -- even the ones they don't understand the
importance of.

It's unreasonable to expect a 5 yo to understand that it's important
to have clean dishes. From a 5 yo's point of view you're standing
there doing what you want. And you're asking him to interrupt
something that's important to him to do something that is less
important.

So what you're modeling is, is that when he's laying on the couch he
can ask you to get down from the ladder as you're painting the
ceiling and get him a juice. And if you don't, you're in trouble.
You're saying that just because someone asks someone to do something
that it 's automatically important and they need to do it.

And actually only asking for important things *is* important in
helping them to learn to treat others respectfully. I *don't* ask my
daughter to interrupt what she's doing unless I'm really stuck. But
she's 14. She understands because she's older. She understands
because I haven't made her do what I ask. She understands because
she's seen me treat her requests with respect and she returns the favor.

I didn't expect that at 5. At 5 I treated her with respect. If I
*asked* for something I didn't treat that as a pretend polite way of
commanding. It was a real legitimate question and if she said No, I
respected that what she was doing was more important.

If we treat them with respect, they learn in time to treat us with
respect.

> Whatever name one want to give to the behavior, it is
> not good manners and not a character trait I want to model or to see
> develop in our children.

It's much more helpful to talk about our own kids and real scenarios.
What you've talked about are adults who are trapped in jobs they
don't enjoy or fictional scenarios that sound plausible.

Let's talk about unschooled kids and unschooling ideas. The concept
of an unschooled child being lazy isn't helpful. We can discuss
specific real scenarios of one of your own children that you might
label lazy.

> But
> please realize, they are ages 8, 7, and 5, and because of their ages
> they do have be told/reminded/asked/encouraged and yes, sometimes
> required to do things that need to be done.

And I didn't tell my daughter to do things and around 10 or 11 she
did it spontaneously. She's very generous with her time.

I did ask her to do things and respected when she said she couldn't.
I reminded her of things she wanted to do and she appreciated that.

> If I carry up a couple of
> basketfuls of clean clothes and the girls are watching a movie or
> something and I say, "Here, please get these folded," I don't believe
> their childhood world is going to come crashing down around them.
> Because we're a homeschooling family, our entire lives are centered
> around doing things together, learning together, and working
> together.

Every time you make them do what they don't want to, regardless of
how important you see it, you're whittling away at your relationship.

Is it going to make their world crash down? Will they grow up to hate
you? No. But it's helpful to be aware of what we do that whittles and
what we do that builds.

You can choose to whittle. The results may be worth it to you. But it
won't help anyone unschool or parent more mindfully. There are other
ways that *will* help someone parent more mindfully. You don't have
to accept them. You can pick and choose from the options that get
presented on the list.

But the list becomes less useful for those who are seeking ways to
move towards unschooling and towards mindful parenting if the ideas
held up as good practices are a mish mosh of what works for various
people.

I think it's very possible to foster an atmosphere of "We're all in
this together. We're a team," to encourage kids to help. *BUT* what
you've written above -- a child getting in trouble for not doing what
mom asks him to do (even if you only ask for things you are certain
are reasonable) -- is not something an unschooler can read about,
take home and turn their household into a team. What you've written
is fairly conventional parenting that has results that vary from
resentful kids to helpful kids. Because the factor that creates
helpful kids isn't making them.

There is some respect mixed in with the making that you're doing that
is probably responsible for your kids asking if they can help. (IT
might also be personality. It might also be fear of God.) But you
aren't seeing respect as the major factor. You think they need to be
forced to act respectful to become respectful.

I *know* that's not true because I've done the respect without the
force and my daughter is respectful. Others here have had the same
results.

If you can't explain why your kids ask if they can help -- and you
can't because others have tried force and it rarely yields kids who
ask if they can help -- then presenting it here doesn't help anyone
be more mindful or move closer to unschooling.

> I know this will shock and horrify some

It neither shocks nor horrifies me. It's pretty standard parenting
practice. Millions of parents want to do it and are certain they need
to do it.

> We REQUIRE these things because we
> love them, not to suppress their ability to choose and not to ruin
> their lives.

So if your child REQUIRED you to do a particular level on a video
game daily to get them to the next level, that would be because they
love you?

I don't REQUIRE my daughter to do anything and I love her and she
knows it.

That argument that REQUIRING equates to love doesn't hold water.

> I know I have not (and will not) arrive at the same level
> of "unschooling consciousness" as most on this board, but we're all
> doing what we think is best and learning in the process.

There are lots of people who will never take on all of what is
suggested on the list. They will ask how to make something we've
discussed work. They will pick and choose and go their merry way on
other parts.

The difference is that they won't feel they need to present what they
do as helpful to others trying to unschool and trying to parent more
mindfully.

Do whatever you feel is best for your family. Pick and choose from
this list and a dozen others and anyone whose parenting you admire.

But the list is for discussing how to move closer to unschooling (and
mindful parenting which is essentially applying unschooling
principles to parenting) not for discussing whatever mish mosh of
practices someone uses.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa

This reminds me of a story my husband's sister told me. Once when
Zane (DH) was about four, he was running through the house and his
dad told him to pick something up. It was a small toy, not a big
deal, and probably a toy he had picked up dozens of times. But Zane
kept running, and yelled "No!" as he went by. When his dad saw him
the next time, he picked him up, swatted his butt three or four
times, and sent him to his room crying. Two swats for not doing what
he was told, and two for telling his dad no.
No one ever thought to ask him why he said no. No one took into
consideration that something he was doing was important. And it was!
He had to go potty. He had been waiting because he was outside
weeding their garden, and waited til the last minute to go. If he
would have stopped to explain, he probably would have wet his pants.

That's the story I think of whenever someone expects instant
obedience from anyone. I think of all the times that my child wanted
to tell me something very important, and I was inconsiderate enough
to want him to wait til my talking was finished. It was gone by then,
and they had no idea what they wanted to tell me. We used to joke
about how if it was important enough it would come back, but now I'm
horrified to think of the wisdom and knowledge that they had been
wanting to share, and was put aside. If your son is playing, he's
learning. What we say is "Would you mind getting the bags for me?"
and if they say no, I take the time to find out why. There's
something more important in their world at that moment, and it's
respectful to acknowledge that. As they get older they automatically
develop the ability to put off their own desires to help others, I've
seen that with my own.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Jun 16, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Trudy wrote:
>
> I think it's perfectly fine for me to be standing at the sink washing
> dishes and as my 5-year-old son runs by playing to say, "Hey, Braden,
> I need you to get me a couple of trash bags out and bring them over
> here, please." I don't say, "Braden, if it's okay with you and if
> you CHOOSE to do so, and if it won't hurt you to be REQUIRED to do
> this, could you please bring Mommy two trash bags?" If I ask him to
> please get them for me and he continues on his merry way and does not
> CHOOSE to help me, he will be in trouble; not because he's a little
> brat but because he needs to know it was wrong to ignore someone who
> asked for help and that he should have been considerate of that. Why
> would he do this? He is a child and they are not always
> automatically considerate of others. They will learn it as the years
> go on, but when small need to be shown and told.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Trudy

Joyce,

Here is a quote from your post to me:

"There are lots of people who will never take on all of what is
suggested on the list. They will ask how to make something we've
discussed work. They will pick and choose and go their merry way on
other parts.

The difference is that they won't feel they need to present what they
do as helpful to others trying to unschool and trying to parent more
mindfully.

Do whatever you feel is best for your family. Pick and choose from
this list and a dozen others and anyone whose parenting you admire.

But the list is for discussing how to move closer to unschooling (and
mindful parenting which is essentially applying unschooling
principles to parenting) not for discussing whatever mish mosh of
practices someone uses."

-------------

I thought I was in the proces of discussing unschooling and what it
entails. In most each and every post I have been personally
responding to direct questions or comments which have been asked of
me - people wanting me to clarify a point. However, when I do it has
most times been countered with how "unschooling" it is because I'm
not being "mindful." Because I know what I believe and why and am
not ashamed to state it. This is wrong?

When you say the list is for discussing how to move closer to
unschooling and mindful parenting do you mean that it's for anyone
who thinks all the mindful ways are awesome and wants your input on
how you go about it? If someone disagrees then they're
discussing "mish mosh"?


Trudy Powell