Elissa Jill Cleaveland

Like you've all pointed out
multiple times, you can't teach someone until they're ready to learn.
*********
When I came here to this list, I came for a reason. To learn about unschooling.
If someone isn't ready, then they are more than welcome to do whatever they want and come back here when they ARE ready.
Why would someone be here if they don't want to learn about unschooling?
We're not forcing ANYONE to sit here and read and write.
We are recommending reading lists so that we don't have to answer the same questions over and over when the info is already out there.

Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mara

Hello everyone,
after reading here (and a few books) for a while, and
being excited about becoming a 'radical unschooler'
here are my questions I would love to have
discussed/answered. I am still new to writing on
lists, so please bear with me. And I certainly do not
mind any and all opinions, I loved hearing and seeing
Ren and Kelly at the conference and have a so much
respect and gratitude for all of you who are running
this.
So, in the hopes of deepening my understanding, here
it goes.
I have 4 children I am hoping to unschool, almost 2,
almost 5, 15 (stepson who just left highschool) and 18
(who went through the system and has a LOT of healing
to do).
I guess my biggest issue is that I am alone in all
this. We have no babysitters, family, friends etc. who
come and help out, either with just household things
or watching one or the other for a bit ...
Mh dh is working a lot and quite busy, he says he is
fine with me doing whatever that is I am doing as the
kids seem to be quite happy and understanding.
Unfortunately we have a few run-ins about his and my
parenting style. He thinks when he asks ds to do
something he should just do it without always asking
'why', once I heard him say 'if you don't stop this I
will send you to your room', or 'do you want to loos
that toy' etc. - all things I abhore and would never
do to someone. So, trying to avoid confronting him in
front of the children, I try to bring it up later -
which is not always possible of course since ds (4)
will usually then turn to me crying and I can not and
will not enforce these things. DH will then go on to
say that once again I make it difficult for him to do
anything with ds, that how can I not sometimes let him
'parent' too -
his way that is. That it should not matter so much as
he is usually not around that much anyways. And that I
should try to enforce when he says something.
I have tried to talk to him about how to say things
differently, that my children are very understanding
and that I NEVER have an issue of 'disobedience'
simply because I treat them as equals who might just
need a bit more help with some things. The older boys,
in dealing with the younger ones, often mimick what
dad does because he was the one who raised them 'his
way'. (And boy did they fight sometimes). Although I
recently say the 15 yo cringe when he would not let
the youngest go to me when he wanted to and told him
to not let him cry like that. My dh says he does not
hear him cry and that he should just stay with him too
sometimes. He does, he loves his daddy, but sometime
he just wants me, or does not want to be held etc. and
that should be fine too.
There are times though things are difficult. Like
when we are at a restaurant or store and he starts
tearing the place apart or running around through the
tables. I understand a store is not the greatest place
for young ones and my biggest challenge to the
unschooling ways. I have no choice but to take them
with me, and the older one is no problem, he would
read in the cart or help me out looking for stuff
etc., but the youngest just wants to run and DO stuff.
I have tried letting him help me put stuff in the
cart, but he then wants to keep doing it (like
throwing ALL those lemons in there - or do they bounce
when I throw them?) . He has a very exploratory
spirit, and I feel bad having to say 'no' (in other
words, as he HATES that word and I try not to ever use
it) - but the same idea - you can not pull all these
from the shelves, don't take the eggs out because they
might break, don't keep running away please etc. etc.
Usually I feel totally exhausted and not so great
after the usual 2 hour ordeal. I do try to give them
snacks as well, which helps some, or let them carry
some things that can not break around with them for a
while, but I still don't know how to do this more
graceously.
Then there is bedtime - I have tried to let them
decide for themselves - now the usual bedtime for my
almost 5 is midnight - then he sleeps until 10 or
10:30 am. The youngest usually falls asleep a bit
earlier - then wakes up earlier - if I want
uninterrupted time with the older kids or dh I have to
wake up again which often I am too tired to do. When I
do I just have to tackle that huge mountain of clothes
to be washed or folded, yet another dishwasher, clean
the playroom, living room etc. etc. It is just me who
does everything, and even though I try to get a lot
done in the day I am just NEVER done and noone helps
out. I don't mind doing it, it is just that sometimes
I feel bad that I don't have as much one-on-one time
with my kids as so much time is spend cleaning up. I
always now when someone asks to do someting say to
myself 'why not' and then do it -
Why not dump a mountain of flour on the kitchen floor
and play with it (see how you can make eggs with a
spoon?), Take out the paints, builds pirate ships out
of all the furniture etc.,
I do love all this and don't mind the trouble, it is
just that sometimes then I don't have time for other
things or even really play with them, other then some
minutes, sometimes just an hour a day of uninterrupted
playing with castles and knights. Often not even that.
My dh does not really see me alone anymore, I am too
exhausted at night, I get sick a bit more often, and
now when I am supposed to clean or spend time with dh
all I could get up for is this email list.
My children are generally very happy, content and
inquisitive - and I am very gratefull for our life. We
have wonderful times together and letting them choose
what they want to do or eat etc. has been wonderful.
I guess I am just sometimes wondering if I can do it
all by myself - and what it will do to them if the
whole surrounding world of family (close and extended)
is not so supportive of our ways, and critizises
(what, he is almost 5 and still can not read or count
beyond 10? )
As to the reading, I have let go almost of wanting to
try to teach him something, but would you still offer
things like : Would you like me to show you how to
draw an E? Or just wait till he asks me to? Or is it
more like: Would you like to read this book or play
that new game? Or are alphabet things too learning
oriented and not just fun like books and games - if he
would answer 'no' of course I always respect that. I
recently showed him one of those workbooks at a store
where you trace the letters etc. and asked him if he
wanted one of those. He took a quick look and said no,
but he loves doing the maze books and can complete
very complex mazes, even ones for ages 8-12.
I suppose I am answering my own question. I just
wonder if there are things that are fun that I could
just kind of offer him and that might teach him to
read on his own? Is just reading to him a LOT (which
he loves) enough? Will he make the connection himself
between big and small letters, or are there things you
have to tell them - not make him do - just tell or
offer. Like I do tell my ds (almost 2) that he can pee
in the toilet ( or a bowl, anywhere but on the carpet)
too if he does not like the diaper. This is some issue
as well. He hates wearing it and I try to respect
that. I have to be very alert, he is not pretty much
dry at night, he wakes me up when he needs to pee, I
put a diaper on him quickly or hold it under him and
when he is done take it away. But then there are all
the times he does not tell me and the pee and poop go
on the carpet etc. Do I force him to wear a diaper?
How does radical unschooling work with very young
children? He usually does understand that he still
needs one when we go out.
I guess the biggest issue I have trouble with is
criticism and the lack of support. I have yet to find
other unschoolers in the area that I can connect with.

I sometimes do find kids for my ds (almost 5) to play
with, but the things he witnesses in behavior and
parenting are often less than positive. He was just in
heaven at the unschooling conference. That's why I
sacrificed my wish to hear the speaches for his need
to just play with all these really cool, sweet kids.
He still remembers being at a friends house, and how
he just stood there watching them fight, then one of
them being locked out in the garage ( in the middle of
winter) screaming and banging on the door. We were
both horrified. Also when we go places, most kids are
there with their babysitters who spend most time on
cellphones, and when he asked if maybe he could invite
one of those kids over to play, that never happens,
because it is totally impossible to approach the
parents or babysitter or I can just see it won't work
too well.
Any and all advice appreciated. And I do promise I try
to keep things shorter next time. I usually don't even
have the time.

Alright, one more thing. In unschooling the older
ones, I don't ask them to help around the house with
cleaning, but I can barely keep up, let alone go any
further than just dealing with the worst of messes.
Sometimes I feel like I am drowning in them - I do
understand they have their own teenage things and
issues to deal with, but sometimes it's just hard.
So, now onwards to the dishwasher and laundry...
With much appreciation,
Mara and the boys




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freepsgal

Wow Mara, you have your hands full. No wonder you're a bit
stressed. The main thing I see in your post is that you are trying
to do everything all by yourself. It's like you're being a slave to
your children for the sake of unschooling. Why do you not ask the
kids, ALL of them, to help you with housework? It's a necessary
part of life. It doesn't have to become a strict thing like in some
families with mandatory chores, rewards, etc. I have never bought
into that even before I heard of radical unschooling. My kids
always have the option of saying no when I ask them to help me, but
they very rarely do. Sometimes, they are busy with something else
but will get to the request later. I can't think of any housework
that has a do-right-now priority.

My children are 8, 9 and 14. Even when they were toddlers, they
loved helping out. I've always praised their efforts even when I
knew I could have done a better job. But a half-dusted living room
is better than an all dusty living room. Over time, their skills
have been improving. They all know how to do laundry, load/unload
the dishwasher, wash down countertops and table, dust, vacuum. The
only thing they don't really do is the bathroom. My dd8 does enjoy
cleaning out the sink but I'm the only one who isn't bothered by
cleaning the toilets. *laugh* But housework can actually be fun
when you turn on some music and everyone works together. We always
have a blast!

I think you should have a discussion with your children about family
support. Don't worry so much about outside-the-family, focus first
on your children. They may be a greater support than you know!

As for your 5 year old not reading, I don't think you should push
him. You can work on the alphabet without making it a boring
lesson. I used to sing to my children all the time when they were
little. They sang the ABC song when they were toddlers. They
really loved pointing out letters they knew. I remember my son
being 3 years old and being so excited to see a stop sign. He'd
yell S-T-O-P means stop!! My daughter Allison recognized the letter
A early on because it was the first letter in her name. She'd point
out all the 'A's' she could whether it was at home in a book or
while driving around seeing signs. If he likes you reading aloud to
him, do that. We have always read aloud and we love it! I find it
more enjoyable than reading alone because we talk about the book
together. Those are actually good reading skills. Comprehension is
understanding what is happening in the story. Vocabulary words are
defined as you come across something he doesn't know. My kids
usually stop me and say 'Mom, what does X mean?' I define it
quickly, and then keep on reading. I don't stop to turn it into a
lesson, or write it down which makes it look like schoolwork. They
are hearing the word used in context and that's a super great way of
learning new words. Also, we love to predict what might happen next
in a story. We just play 'what if'. What if the main character
does this? Or Oh no, what do you think is going to happen if he
does that? We just feels it makes reading aloud more fun to do
those types of things. :)

Okay, I've written too much. I'm rambling. :)

Beth M.

kbcdlovejo@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Mara <mamadeluz@...>


And I certainly do not
mind any and all opinions, I loved hearing and seeing
Ren and Kelly at the conference and have a so much
respect and gratitude for all of you who are running
this.

-=-=-

And I enjoyed meeting and talking with you!

-=--=-=-

Unfortunately we have a few run-ins about his and my
parenting style. He thinks when he asks ds to do
something he should just do it without always asking
'why', once I heard him say 'if you don't stop this I
will send you to your room', or 'do you want to loos
that toy' etc. - all things I abhore and would never
do to someone. So, trying to avoid confronting him in
front of the children, I try to bring it up later -
which is not always possible of course since ds (4)
will usually then turn to me crying and I can not and
will not enforce these things. DH will then go on to
say that once again I make it difficult for him to do
anything with ds, that how can I not sometimes let him
'parent' too -
his way that is.

-=-=-=-=-=-

I wouldn't avoid confronting your husband in front of the children.

I think *he* needs to know you're serious. So do the kids: they need
to know you *will* stand up for them in front of their father.

If my husband were to say, "Go to your room," I would say, "No, of
course you don't have to go to your room. A person's room should be his
sanctuary, not a prison. Come here to me, and we'll talk about it." "Do
you want to lose that toy" would be met with: "Of course he doesn't
want to lose that toy. It's his favorite. and he's having so much fun
with it right now. Why would you want to punish him like that? " In
front of my husband and the kids. They need an ally, not a "united
front" that the conventional parenting books suggest.

I think that, if he insists on being a difficult parent, then it would
help him to realize *how* his children will view him later. Tell him!

Did he have this kind of relationship with his father? How's that
relationship now? How does he feel about his relationship with his dad
when he was little? Is that what he wants with his kids?

I'd tell him that, if he wants to parent "his" way, then he needs to
be able to deal with the consequences---angry wife, fearful children,
unhappy family.

-=-=-=-=-


That it should not matter so much as
he is usually not around that much anyways. And that I
should try to enforce when he says something.

-=-=-=-

I think flat our refusing to do this should be priority #1!

And if he's not around that much, remind him that he's like an ogre
intruding on their peacefful lives. It would be better, expecially if
he's not there often, to take a more "backseat" role instead of plowing
ahead and expescting everyone to jump when he says so.

-=-=-=-=-

I have tried to talk to him about how to say things
differently, that my children are very understanding
and that I NEVER have an issue of 'disobedience'
simply because I treat them as equals who might just
need a bit more help with some things. The older boys,
in dealing with the younger ones, often mimick what
dad does because he was the one who raised them 'his
way'. (And boy did they fight sometimes). Although I
recently say the 15 yo cringe when he would not let
the youngest go to me when he wanted to and told him
to not let him cry like that. My dh says he does not
hear him cry and that he should just stay with him too
sometimes. He does, he loves his daddy, but sometime
he just wants me, or does not want to be held etc. and
that should be fine too.

-=-=--

Children who are made to do what adults *make* them do are ripe
targets for pedophiles and other predators.

If he doesn't hear the baby cry, then maybe he's not the best person
for the baby to be with. He'll need to be more in tune with the baby
before I'd leave them alone.

-=-=-=-=-

There are times though things are difficult. Like
when we are at a restaurant or store and he starts
tearing the place apart or running around through the
tables.
-=-=-=-=-

If he's not able to go to a restaurant, maybe he's not ready to go to
a restaurant.

-=-=--=-

He has a very exploratory
spirit, and I feel bad having to say 'no' (in other
words, as he HATES that word and I try not to ever use
it) - but the same idea - you can not pull all these
from the shelves, don't take the eggs out because they
might break, don't keep running away please etc. etc.

-=-=-=-

He's getting older every day. This won't last forever.

Maybe others have ideas for this kind of personality. Both of mine
were pretty easy to deal with in stores and restaurants.

-=-=-=-=-


Usually I feel totally exhausted and not so great
after the usual 2 hour ordeal. I do try to give them
snacks as well, which helps some, or let them carry
some things that can not break around with them for a
while, but I still don't know how to do this more
graceously.

-=-=-=-

Lord! Two hours is LONG! Maybe shorter trips for just a few things
would be a good idea. Maybe even everyday, just for a few minutes each
day.

-=-=-=-=-

Then there is bedtime - I have tried to let them
decide for themselves - now the usual bedtime for my
almost 5 is midnight - then he sleeps until 10 or
10:30 am. The youngest usually falls asleep a bit
earlier - then wakes up earlier - if I want
uninterrupted time with the older kids or dh I have to
wake up again which often I am too tired to do.


-=-=-=-=-

Have you tried making the house a quiet, serene, dark, sleepy place
earlier in the evening? Turn down the lights, put on soft music, give a
warm bath, massage little feet or heads? Make the atmosphere conducive
to sleep. Maybe they'd go down a little earlier.

-=-=-=-

When I
do I just have to tackle that huge mountain of clothes
to be washed or folded, yet another dishwasher, clean
the playroom, living room etc. etc. It is just me who
does everything, and even though I try to get a lot
done in the day I am just NEVER done and noone helps
out. I don't mind doing it, it is just that sometimes
I feel bad that I don't have as much one-on-one time
with my kids as so much time is spend cleaning up.

-=-=-=-

No one helps? Do you ask for help?

Can you live with it not as clean? ( I know you're German! <g> That
can make it hard! <g>)

-=-=-=-=

I always now when someone asks to do someting say to
myself 'why not' and then do it -
Why not dump a mountain of flour on the kitchen floor
and play with it (see how you can make eggs with a
spoon?), Take out the paints, builds pirate ships out
of all the furniture etc.,
I do love all this and don't mind the trouble, it is
just that sometimes then I don't have time for other
things or even really play with them, other then some
minutes, sometimes just an hour a day of uninterrupted
playing with castles and knights. Often not even that.

--=-=-=-

Mother's helper? A pre-teen who would like to get paid for an hour or
two of play while you work?

-=-=-=-

My dh does not really see me alone anymore, I am too
exhausted at night, I get sick a bit more often, and
now when I am supposed to clean or spend time with dh
all I could get up for is this email list.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah--these e-lists can do that to you!

I take a break from the lists every now and then---and then catch up
like now.

If you're getting sick, that's not OK.

-=-=-=-=-

My children are generally very happy, content and
inquisitive - and I am very gratefull for our life. We
have wonderful times together and letting them choose
what they want to do or eat etc. has been wonderful.
I guess I am just sometimes wondering if I can do it
all by myself -

-=-=-=-=-

I'm hoping you can work with your husband and your step-son to
understand what you're trying to do/accomplish. Maybe then they could
be of help.

-==-=-

and what it will do to them if the
whole surrounding world of family (close and extended)
is not so supportive of our ways, and critizises
(what, he is almost 5 and still can not read or count
beyond 10? )

-=-=-=-

THAT should be the least of your worries.

If they're not helping now, why should they concern you at all?

-=-=-=-

As to the reading, I have let go almost of wanting to
try to teach him something, but would you still offer
things like : Would you like me to show you how to
draw an E? Or just wait till he asks me to? Or is it
more like: Would you like to read this book or play
that new game? Or are alphabet things too learning
oriented and not just fun like books and games - if he
would answer 'no' of course I always respect that. I
recently showed him one of those workbooks at a store
where you trace the letters etc. and asked him if he
wanted one of those. He took a quick look and said no,
but he loves doing the maze books and can complete
very complex mazes, even ones for ages 8-12.

-=-=-=-=-

If he sees you writing, he'll probably make his way over and play with
the pens and paper. He'll figure out the E when he's ready---he'll ask
you if he's having problems.

Alphabet things come up a LOT with littluns---TV, books, games,
refrigerator magnets, songs---they're everywhere! And they *can* be
fun! They *are* fun!

Just get the books if you can afford them. He may not be interested
now. But if they're sitting on a shelf he can reach, the chance is that
he'll get to them one day.

-=-=-=-=-

I suppose I am answering my own question. I just
wonder if there are things that are fun that I could
just kind of offer him and that might teach him to
read on his own?

-=-=--

It's the journey, not the destination. He'll read. I promise! <g>

-=-=-=-

Is just reading to him a LOT (which
he loves) enough?

-=-=-=-

Yep!

And answering questions and listening to books-on-CD and reading
vowel-less words on the refrigerator and telling him how to spell
things and....

-=-=-=-

Will he make the connection himself
between big and small letters, or are there things you
have to tell them - not make him do - just tell or
offer.

-=-=-=-

What do *you* think? <g>

-=-=-=-=-

Like I do tell my ds (almost 2) that he can pee
in the toilet ( or a bowl, anywhere but on the carpet)
too if he does not like the diaper. This is some issue
as well. He hates wearing it and I try to respect
that. I have to be very alert, he is not pretty much
dry at night, he wakes me up when he needs to pee, I
put a diaper on him quickly or hold it under him and
when he is done take it away. But then there are all
the times he does not tell me and the pee and poop go
on the carpet etc. Do I force him to wear a diaper?
How does radical unschooling work with very young
children? He usually does understand that he still
needs one when we go out.

-=-=-=-=-

I'm not the best with littluns---Others can address that.

BUT 1) summer's here
and 2) he's getting older every day! <g>

-==-=-=-

I guess the biggest issue I have trouble with is
criticism and the lack of support.

-=-=-=-

Just with your husband? or neighbors? or extended family?

--=-=-=-=-

I have yet to find
other unschoolers in the area that I can connect with.

-=-=-=--=

Where are you?

-=-=-=-=-

I sometimes do find kids for my ds (almost 5) to play
with, but the things he witnesses in behavior and
parenting are often less than positive. He was just in
heaven at the unschooling conference. That's why I
sacrificed my wish to hear the speaches for his need
to just play with all these really cool, sweet kids.

-=-=-=-

Ain't that grand? <g>

-=-=-=--=

He still remembers being at a friends house, and how
he just stood there watching them fight, then one of
them being locked out in the garage ( in the middle of
winter) screaming and banging on the door. We were
both horrified. Also when we go places, most kids are
there with their babysitters who spend most time on
cellphones, and when he asked if maybe he could invite
one of those kids over to play, that never happens,
because it is totally impossible to approach the
parents or babysitter or I can just see it won't work
too well.

-=-=-=-=-

As painful as it can be, sometimes seeing how bad things somewhere
else are can make you appreciate what you have! <g>

-==-=-=-=-

Alright, one more thing. In unschooling the older
ones, I don't ask them to help around the house with
cleaning, but I can barely keep up, let alone go any
further than just dealing with the worst of messes.
Sometimes I feel like I am drowning in them - I do
understand they have their own teenage things and
issues to deal with, but sometimes it's just hard.
So, now onwards to the dishwasher and laundry...


-=-=-=-

Why don't you ask? If you are comfortable with a negative answer, why
not ask?

They may not be ready to help out, but they probably will eventually.
Try it!



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith




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Mara

Thank you Kelly and Beth for your great responses. It
really helps to have that support, and you are so
right. Now I will not waver at all and firmly stand my
ground in front of them. We had a long talk the other
day (after quite a few run-ins) and I believe he is
realizing how serious I am about this. The anger he
has been having about my not giving in to 'his way' is
slowly turning to a way to understand. Sometimes now I
will see him trying to use my way, and even if it is
somewhat 'fake', it might become more natural after a
while. So instead of saying 'when you don't stop
throwing the blocks at me xyz will happen, he said,
why don't you try to build a castle with those...' and
got the answer ' oh, yea, why not.". Yes, often it is
that easy. He is slowly getting that instead of
repeatedly saying 'no' to a young child he is not
going to hear it any better the fifth time, that a
simple redirection or explanation works wonders.
He did have a lousy relationship with his own father
and is sure that his father is in some way responsible
for his cancer - and dealing with that has brought up
a lot of issues. He wants to be a good dad and has
practically given his life to raising the two older
ones for 10 years by himself - the only way he knew
how. He did the best he could - all my ways are so new
to him but since he loves and respects me he IS trying
to understand.
There was a big conflict within myself in not trying
to stress him due to his condition, it would have been
easier for him would I let the children cry sometimes
for his sake - but I realize that would in the long
run not be healthy for anyone.
The diaper issue with the 22-month old is resolving
itself. He is now dry at night and most during the day
if I am fast enough to stick a bucket in front of him
- when he needs to poop he just pats his bum and says
popo (german for bum), very funny. Also in true
unschooling fashion, I solved the pee-on-carpet issue
by just taking the carpets out of the room -
I love it how the children surprise me every day in
the things they want to learn - I have learned so much
with them already it is a great and wonderful journey.
As to the older kids it is more complicated. I
actually do ask them to help sometimes - they
sometimes say 'yes', but often forget, or they feel
like they 'have to'. Today the 15 year old actually
let the 4 y.o. play with him and his friends for quite
some time.
My issue with the older ones is that dh still thinks
that they are only 'his' concern, that at least with
them he can treat them the way he has always done
without me interfering. I slowly try to get in there
more but I also realize I am not their 'real' mom (
whom they see maybe once a year and has no idea that
one of her sons even left school...). I often feel
like I am - but still I feel like I can not do the
things or say the stuff I would were they not my
stepchildren. Don't know how to deal with that issue
better - it was my doing that dss left school but now
that he is out dh is still using 'school' methods of
punishment/reward etc. and I don't get consulted, just
hear about it 'later'. How is this unschooling then
supposed to work?

As to being German and cleanliness - people have often
said that I am the least german German they have ever
met. When I grew up our house was always stuffed full
of books and art etc. and was cozy but did not always
look so clean. How shocked was I when I say our
neighors houses where you could always eat off the
floor, the couches were covered in plastic when noone
sat on them and the few books on the shelves were
fake. So, I do like order, but just enought to enjoy
life.

A short note on spelling - I never learned to spell in
English, I simply learned when I came to this country
in my twenties and just had to do it, and reading lots
of books in English. Now I am often better at it than
dh. Motivation Is everything.

thanks again,
Mara

--- kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mara <mamadeluz@...>
>
>
> And I certainly do not
> mind any and all opinions, I loved hearing and
> seeing
> Ren and Kelly at the conference and have a so much
> respect and gratitude for all of you who are
> running
> this.
>
> -=-=-
>
> And I enjoyed meeting and talking with you!
>
> -=--=-=-
>
> Unfortunately we have a few run-ins about his and
> my
> parenting style. He thinks when he asks ds to do
> something he should just do it without always
> asking
> 'why', once I heard him say 'if you don't stop this
> I
> will send you to your room', or 'do you want to
> loos
> that toy' etc. - all things I abhore and would
> never
> do to someone. So, trying to avoid confronting him
> in
> front of the children, I try to bring it up later -
> which is not always possible of course since ds (4)
> will usually then turn to me crying and I can not
> and
> will not enforce these things. DH will then go on
> to
> say that once again I make it difficult for him to
> do
> anything with ds, that how can I not sometimes let
> him
> 'parent' too -
> his way that is.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I wouldn't avoid confronting your husband in front
> of the children.
>
> I think *he* needs to know you're serious. So do
> the kids: they need
> to know you *will* stand up for them in front of
> their father.
>
> If my husband were to say, "Go to your room," I
> would say, "No, of
> course you don't have to go to your room. A person's
> room should be his
> sanctuary, not a prison. Come here to me, and we'll
> talk about it." "Do
> you want to lose that toy" would be met with: "Of
> course he doesn't
> want to lose that toy. It's his favorite. and he's
> having so much fun
> with it right now. Why would you want to punish him
> like that? " In
> front of my husband and the kids. They need an ally,
> not a "united
> front" that the conventional parenting books
> suggest.
>
> I think that, if he insists on being a difficult
> parent, then it would
> help him to realize *how* his children will view him
> later. Tell him!
>
> Did he have this kind of relationship with his
> father? How's that
> relationship now? How does he feel about his
> relationship with his dad
> when he was little? Is that what he wants with his
> kids?
>
> I'd tell him that, if he wants to parent "his"
> way, then he needs to
> be able to deal with the consequences---angry wife,
> fearful children,
> unhappy family.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
>
> That it should not matter so much as
> he is usually not around that much anyways. And
> that I
> should try to enforce when he says something.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> I think flat our refusing to do this should be
> priority #1!
>
> And if he's not around that much, remind him that
> he's like an ogre
> intruding on their peacefful lives. It would be
> better, expecially if
> he's not there often, to take a more "backseat" role
> instead of plowing
> ahead and expescting everyone to jump when he says
> so.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I have tried to talk to him about how to say things
> differently, that my children are very
> understanding
> and that I NEVER have an issue of 'disobedience'
> simply because I treat them as equals who might
> just
> need a bit more help with some things. The older
> boys,
> in dealing with the younger ones, often mimick what
> dad does because he was the one who raised them
> 'his
> way'. (And boy did they fight sometimes). Although
> I
> recently say the 15 yo cringe when he would not let
> the youngest go to me when he wanted to and told
> him
> to not let him cry like that. My dh says he does
> not
> hear him cry and that he should just stay with him
> too
> sometimes. He does, he loves his daddy, but
> sometime
> he just wants me, or does not want to be held etc.
> and
> that should be fine too.
>
> -=-=--
>
> Children who are made to do what adults *make*
> them do are ripe
> targets for pedophiles and other predators.
>
> If he doesn't hear the baby cry, then maybe he's
> not the best person
> for the baby to be with. He'll need to be more in
> tune with the baby
> before I'd leave them alone.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> There are times though things are difficult. Like
> when we are at a restaurant or store and he starts
> tearing the place apart or running around through
> the
> tables.
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> If he's not able to go to a restaurant, maybe he's
> not ready to go to
> a restaurant.
>
> -=-=--=-
>
> He has a very exploratory
> spirit, and I feel bad having to say 'no' (in other
> words, as he HATES that word and I try not to ever
> use
> it) - but the same idea - you can not pull all
> these
> from the shelves, don't take the eggs out because
> they
> might break, don't keep running away please etc.
> etc.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> He's getting older every day. This won't last
> forever.
>
> Maybe others have ideas for this kind of
> personality. Both of mine
> were pretty easy to deal with in stores and
> restaurants.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
>
> Usually I feel totally exhausted and not so great
> after the usual 2 hour ordeal. I do try to give
> them
> snacks as well, which helps some, or let them carry
> some things that can not break around with them for
> a
> while, but I still don't know how to do this more
> graceously.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
>
=== message truncated ===


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