squeakybiscuit

OK, Luke, (the 12 year old I've been talking about) asked why there
were so many black people in Jamaica. I said that I thought it was
because during evolution people's skin color changed according to
the climate of where they lived. He then wanted to know why
different races had different features like eye shape and nose
shape. I said I didn't know maybe it had to do with climate and food
(different crops being abundant)

We looked it up online but kept pulling up Christian creationist
websites, so I looked in the library's catalog to see what they had
to offer.

At that point he said "I don't want to read anything"

So I said, "So, I want to know. I'll read it and let you know what
is says."

He seemed content with that.

Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
skills?

I think I am irritating people here, but these are sincere
questions....

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: squeakybiscuit <squeakybiscuit@...>


At that point he said "I don't want to read anything"

So I said, "So, I want to know. I'll read it and let you know what
is says."

He seemed content with that.

Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
skills?

--=-=-=-

By seeing *you* model them. By seeing *you* be interested and
interesting.

How much did you learn? Or did you quit looking because he was no
longer interested?

He will develop his own reading/researching skills when he needs
them---just like everyone else.

-=-==-=-

I think I am irritating people here, but these are sincere
questions....

-===-

What's irritating is that you don't seem to be trying.

You're wanting to be spoon-fed.

We've given you books, websites, magazine. these archives, and even
one-on-one advice, but you keep complaining.

You're not seeing your child as wonderful and unique and whole and
complete the way he is right now. THAT's the first step. See and accept
him for Who He Is Right Now.

After you accept him as already perfect, THEN he will start impressing
you. Not *one* second before that though.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith




________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Deb Lewis

***At that point he said "I don't want to read anything"***

You come across as very negative. You, the mom. You don't want to read
the works of unschoolers because you "hate" their writing style. You
don't want to spend money on something unless there's a guaranteed
outcome. You don't see learning happening.

If your kid doesn't want to read I'm not at all surprised. Please,
please sit down with yourself and listen to the commentary inside your
own head and as objectively as possible consider how negative you've come
across here at this list and see if that negativity is a part of your
everyday life. Because I'm thinking that either 1. your son is
reflecting YOUR negativity as something he's learned from you or 2. YOU
are projecting YOUR negativity onto him and he's coping in the best way
he knows how.

It starts with you. It won't change until you change.

Deb Lewis

marji

--- In [email protected], "squeakybiscuit"
<squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:

>
> Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
> think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
> read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
> skills?

Erin, I think it's great that he asked the question in the first
place!! I think you really have to go slowly here. Take each moment,
and try not to project too far into the future. Think of him as
healing now. Imagine if someone breaks their leg, they need to stay
off it, depending on the kind of fracture it is, for as long as six or
eight weeks. So, if you try to walk on it, it will seem impossible,
and you might think to yourself, "Hmmm. How will I ever walk again on
this leg normally; it hurts so much." But, you're healing now and
you're not supposed to try to walk on it. After it has had a chance
to heal properly, you can begin to put weight on it, and *eventually*
you can find yourself walking around as though it had never been broken.

He's healing from his school experiences. After he has had a chance
to heal and regain his trust in his world, he'll be able to resume
being the learning machine that he actually is. Right now, he can't
do that. So, my suggestion is not to worry so much about how he'll
develop reading/researching skills in the future. Just get him
through this healing period so he can regain that part of himself that
loves to read the dictionary for fun!

>
> I think I am irritating people here, but these are sincere
> questions....

Erin, I'm truly impressed with your questions! I know that this is a
way different thing that you're trying to do than perhaps what
resonates with you. I wish my folks had been willing to step outside
their comfort level and pursue a different thing when I was a kid.
They just couldn't do it, but that you are willing to, I think, is
brave and respectful of Luke.

~marji

Deb Lewis

***but if he doesn't
read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
skills?***

Well... you didn't want to read about unschooling so you found a list and
came here to ask all your questions of the people who did read. Maybe
your son will be like that...

Seriously though, he's not going to be a twenty five year old who wants
his mom to read to him. I swear to you. He will not. You are looking
at him today as if he's never going to grow and change. Next year he'll
have grown and changed a lot, and in happy ways if you make his life
happy right now.

Deb Lewis

squeakybiscuit

>
> What's irritating is that you don't seem to be trying.
>
> You're wanting to be spoon-fed.
>
> We've given you books, websites, magazine. these archives, and
even
> one-on-one advice, but you keep complaining.


I've been reading the websites. The books- some I requested be sent
to my local branch for me, some will have to wait until I have the
cash. Maybe I will understand more when I get them.

I don't mean to sound like I'm compalining, I'm actually just not
understanding. I DO have a tendency to want guaranteed results-
perhaps that's exactly why the whole concept of unschooling is so
scary for me.
>


> You're not seeing your child as wonderful and unique and whole
and
> complete the way he is right now. THAT's the first step. See and
accept
> him for Who He Is Right Now.
>
> After you accept him as already perfect, THEN he will start
impressing
> you. Not *one* second before that though.

I do think he is a great kid- exactly where he's at right now. But I
worry that he will choose a career that I haven't prepared him for
and feel hedged in and blame me. I worry that he won't be able to
pursue his dreams, whatever they may be.



>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>
> "The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but
forgetting. No
> matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we
have
> learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't
learn."
> ~Frank Smith
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,
email
> and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 11, 2006, at 11:52 AM, squeakybiscuit wrote:

> Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
> think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
> read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
> skills?

He's only 12. Don't picture his now self as just being a smaller
version of his 22 yo self.

Research isn't that difficult. It won't take years to learn. (In fact
you say he's already researching his own interests. Don't down play
that just because he isn't researching something he would learn in
school. The skills to find out the names of the newest Pokemon are
*exactly* the same as the skills to find out the natives of Jamaica.)
*The* most important thing -- in research and learning -- is wanting
the information.

You can help him learn how to suppress his desire to learn by
pressuring him to do research in order to learn how to do research.
In the process he'll learn how to do something that he won't want to
do. Schools are infamous for forcing in information in a way that
makes the subject so unpalatable that kids make sure they never come
in contact with a need to use that information or those skills. How
many adults don't read for pleasure because they were pressured to
learn to read "at all costs"? The cost, being, the desire to read!

Stop looking at the world of information and skills you want to get
into him. That's going to stop you from understanding how
unschooling works and you'll get in it's way.

Unschooling is about living life, and learning skills and information
as a side effect. Don't assume that because unschoolers aren't headed
directly towards something -- research, alphabet, math, writing ...
-- that it isn't important. We know it's so important, so integral to
living that kids will learn it as a side effect of living because
they have to use it.

We just don't have to teach it. My daughter picked up knowledge of
fractions as a side effect of wanting to cook. Fractions got used and
she got better at them the more she cooked. She picked up percentages
as a side effect of video games (and art programs and sales and tips
and ....) It made no difference if she understood them completely as
she played. It made no difference that she learned from playing Paper
Mario or calculating something "important and academic" like sales
tax. Percentages work the same.) Her understanding of percentages
grew as her understanding of the games grew. Side effect and yet
integral and vital.

English is a much more useful means of communicating than crying and
*just by living life* kids pick English up effortlessly.

Learning a language *because someone thinks you should* is very very
hard.

So it goes with the skills taught in school. Having a great desire to
communicate with other kids, kids IM each other and as a side effect
learn to type and learn to translate thoughts in their heads into
words so that others can understand. Just because those skills are
learned as a side effect doesn't mean they're inconsequential.
They're integral to what the child is trying to do. Kids just don't
have to be competent at the skills before they start IMing and
emailing. It's the desire to IM and email that drives the kids to
keep IMing and emailing. The skills improve without them even being
aware.

(And it's perfectly okay if he's not IMing and emailing. I don't
think my daughter did much at 12.)

> So I said, "So, I want to know. I'll read it and let you know what
> is says."
>
> He seemed content with that.

I think that's a great step forward. :-)

> I think I am irritating people here, but these are sincere
> questions....

I don't doubt that they're sincere! I understand the fears. Most of
us do since we've been there.

But it will help you to know that we all want at the core the same
thing for our kids that you do. We're concerned about them being
competent in the world. We want as many doors open for them as we
possibly can open. There isn't a single person here who wants their
child to be a non-reading, math-illiterate 20 yo even though, from a
schooled mindset, it looks as though that only by luck that our kids
don't turn out that way. The advantage we have, though, over those
who have a schooled mindset, is that we've seen our kids learn by
living so we know we can trust it.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

--- In [email protected], "squeakybiscuit"
<squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:
> I do think he is a great kid- exactly where he's at right now. But I
> worry that he will choose a career that I haven't prepared him for
> and feel hedged in and blame me. I worry that he won't be able to
> pursue his dreams, whatever they may be.

If you can hold one thing in your heart, try this: Anybody who
believes in themselves can do anything they want. Sometimes, the one
thing a person needs to believe in himself is having someone else
demonstrate that they really believe in him, too.

Sometimes you hear a truth so often that it becomes cliché and it
loses its meaning, but unschooling is nothing if it's not about trust.
The trust that you have in him, rather, the trust that he *knows* you
have in him will be enough to help him believe in himself. It sounds
so sappy that I can't believe I'm writing it, but it's really true.

It doesn't matter what he wants to do: If he wants it enough and
believes in himself, there'll be no stopping him, and *that's* the
kind of preparation that you want to be looking at. All the other
stuff will take care of itself. (But, you really don't have to take
my word for it, nor should you. There are plenty of unschoolers who
have proven this just by living their lives!)

~marji, the verbose

D Smith

TRUST, that he'll have want he needs to live his life.
Because that is what you are providing. Even if he
went to school, they can't perpare him for HIS life.
He's not going to blame you, if he doesn't have a
certain skill because you didn't force him to learn
it. He might blame you because you forced him to do
xyz.

Danie


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Joyce Fetteroll

>> What's irritating is that you don't seem to be trying.
>>
>> You're wanting to be spoon-fed.

I don't think that's ever the case even though it comes across that way!

I think it's a need to have full confidence before trying.

Unfortunately that trust and confidence can't come from reading. It
can only come from trying and seeing it in action.

We can tell you what you should be seeing and how to turn your
thoughts around so that you're seeing from a new light and different
direction. But it's only by doing and trying that you can actually
understand what we're talking about.

It's like trying to explain swimming to someone whose never seen a
body of water big enough to swim in. No matter how many words you
throw at it, no matter how skillful the explainer is with English,
there just isn't a substitute for doing.

Which is pretty much what unschooling is about! If we could hand you
a book to teach you to unschool, we could hand kids books to teach
them English and math. But the foundation of unschooling is that
wanting and doing are the best way to learn.

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alice Sackman

>>Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
skills?>>

I wanted to chime in here - I am not sure if what I say will help or
not. I am about one year ahead of you. I was in the exact same place a
year ago with my then 12 yo nephew who had just moved in with us (april
of 2005). He had attended public school since Kindergarten. "Failing"
miserably by the school's standards. He would completely shut down when
it came to any and all of the following (even if the word was just
mentioned his body would get all tight and defensive): homework, school,
learning, reading, tests, studying, etc. He would continually say, "I'm
Dumb! I hate (fill in the blank)!" He would hunch over and cry. We
would try to reassure him but to no avail. I was planning on
homeschooling my own children so I figured I may as well "teach" him at
home too because that was my plan.

Luckily, I had the common sense to see that teaching at home would just
replicate all the pointless busywork that he absolutely hated from
school except now it would be my job to make sure he did it. And I
could easily see that I would never get anywhere. I wanted him to do it
himself, to read, to learn, to strive to better himself. I wanted him
to enjoy his life, be happy and feel successful. That was the real goal
- in my mind anyway. The schoolwork was just a means to the end.
Memorize your multiplication table, get a happy life. But his life
wasn't happy right now and I could really see that the very act of
forcing him to learn was actually guaranteeing that he would never get a
happy life. So for all my good intentions, I was doing the exact
opposite of what he needed me to do. I had to let go - let go of my
fears for the future, let go of my fears of what others may think, let
go of trying to control him in an effort to avoid what I feared.

I spent the summer reading everything I could get my hands on. All the
books everyone has already recommended. I had to dismantle the whole
learning paradigm that was in my mind. Everything that I had never even
questioned before like "You have to get a diploma" or "You have to read
on your own by age 6" or "You have to follow a curriculum". All that
school stuff. I had to look at it with fresh eyes and use my own
experience, and the books, and other people to debunk all of that
garbage. Because that is what it was: garbage filling up my mind and
keeping me from seeing the real learning that was happening. There is
plenty of evidence that none of this stuff is true but you have to be
willing to accept that reality before you can move forward. It is
harder than you think! Because what does it mean if it isn't true?
That I just spent my whole life investing in a system that was
absolutely false? That every "A" I received in school was meaningless?
And that I could have been so much more and better if I had been just
left alone? There is a lot of anger that comes with acknowledging the
truth because that means that all of us (except of course those who were
unschooled) are victims of an awful, mind-debilating system that robs us
of our natural birthright and keeps us imprisoned through guilt, shame,
fear and doubt. Are you ready to break out of that box? Every fear you
have needs to be dismantled and only you can do it.

So take the summer off. Even with your fears intact, you can do this.
Luke is on summer break and, just like every other kid in America, he
should not be expected to accomplish/learn/do school during the summer.
Everytime a fear pops up and you want to make him do something, say to
yourself, "He is on break!" Don't do anything for three months! Just
enjoy yourself. Enjoy him. Do whats fun, follow your heart not your fears.

But you have an assignment: READ, READ, READ. Start with the books that
dismantle formal learning such as Gatto, Llewellyn, Smith and Holt.
Then dive into the unschooling books: Mckee, Kream, Fitzenreiter. And
write down every fear you have and then research, research, research.
How much of your own schooling do you use in your own life? How many
people can you find who are successful despite not being successful in
school stuff? Challenge all those preconceptions, dismantle them and
find the truth. That is your job and no one, not even the good people
on this board, can do it for you.

And back to my nephew: He wouldn't read anything for himself but he
loved for me to read out loud to him. so I did. And I did. And I
did. I have now read 15 novels outloud to him. Sometimes I would read
for 4 hours straight. He loved it! I loved it! We shared something so
special with that. I often thought, "How will he get better at reading
without actually reading?" But I kept that to myself and figured time
would tell. Well, I still read outloud to him - just because it is
something we enjoy together. But he now spend hours studying his D&D
manuals. If I was stuck in school mindset, I would not have seen the
value in this but now I am just happy to see him happy and doing
something he loves. And then lo, and behold, he went and wrote a
novella and is now working on a second one. Who would have guessed
that??? If I had continued to focus on what he was *not* doing and had
tried to force him do things that I thought he *should* be doing, I
would have taken away his oppurtunity to many other things, such as
writing a book. Luke may never write a book but I can guarantee you
that by worrying about and taking up his time with things he dislikes
doing, you are actually preventing him from finding what he loves. By
trying to keep his so-called opportunities open through schoolwork, you
are actually narrowing them. I know, it is counterintuitive but it is true.

-alice





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 11, 2006, at 8:52 AM, squeakybiscuit wrote:

>
> Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
> think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
> read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
> skills?
>
> I think I am irritating people here, but these are sincere
> questions....

LOL - you're irritating your son, more than us.

Please take this to heart.

Imagine you have a HUGE banquet spread before you - so huge that it
stretches as far as the eye can see, in all directions. Some of the
food is super nutritious, some is so delicious it is heavenly.

Want to create an eating disorder? Force-feed your child! Want him to
be resentful? Try to make him eat the super-nutritious and not the
enticingly delicious!

He will have a lifetime to sample it all - no need to stuff it all
in, today.

What you do, as an unschooling parent, is provide the banquet. But
don't make ALL the foods, all at once. Provide little bitty tidbits
for him to sample. If he likes things made with potatoes, make some
more potato dishes (but not ONLY potato dishes).

LITTLE TIDBITS - like you'd have as a sample. Don't push more unless
HE wants more. And even then, go easy, maybe he just wants a little
bigger bite. Don't try to make him eat a meal when he's not hungry.

By the way - the huge banquet IS spread before you - it is the whole
wide world.

-pam


Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jess Holland

Hi there Squeakybiscuit,
I know you are worried that your son may be lazy or won't learn to research on his own, but his learning style may not be by reading something but by hearing something, I know I could never sit there as a kid and read a non fiction book no matter how interested in a subject I was. If someone answered a question for me though it was in my head. My son is the same way. He hates to read but loves for me to snuggle with him and read to him or will listen if I look up something on the computer for him. I know he knows how to read and quite well at that. He just chooses not to. If you need a quick answer to something I think there is a website called www.askjeeves.com.

I am new to this unschooling way too so don't give up hope. Sorry if this was too rambling. I am a bit out of it today. : )

Hugs,
Jess
----- Original Message -----
From: squeakybiscuit
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Reading/ Research Skills


OK, Luke, (the 12 year old I've been talking about) asked why there
were so many black people in Jamaica. I said that I thought it was
because during evolution people's skin color changed according to
the climate of where they lived. He then wanted to know why
different races had different features like eye shape and nose
shape. I said I didn't know maybe it had to do with climate and food
(different crops being abundant)

We looked it up online but kept pulling up Christian creationist
websites, so I looked in the library's catalog to see what they had
to offer.

At that point he said "I don't want to read anything"

So I said, "So, I want to know. I'll read it and let you know what
is says."

He seemed content with that.

Ok, He is ok learning about topics if I read it FOR him. Great. I
think he will learn about "topics" that way.... but if he doesn't
read it himself how will he develop his own reading/researching
skills?

I think I am irritating people here, but these are sincere
questions....





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

> But I worry that he will choose a career that I haven't prepared
> him for and feel hedged in and blame me. I worry that he won't be
> able to pursue his dreams, whatever they may be.

What did your parents specifically do that prepared you for being an
adult? or prepared you for the job you've chosen? Let's start
there. :)

My mom sent me to school because that's all she knew. Neither my
mother nor my teachers ever really taught me anything that prepared
me to be an adult or prepared me for a specific job.

Let's also turn your worry around. What if you really think Math
and Science are the most important subjects. Let's say you forget
about unschooling entirely and force your son to work hard in Math
and Science. Then when he's ready for college, he decides to major
in English. By your reckoning, he may be angry with you because you
didn't prepare him for his chosen field.

I really do understand your desire to hold your son's hand and be
responsible for him but I think you're going to realize one day that
it was never your responsibility. You should be there to support
his interests and his passions. Everything else will follow.

Just for the record, when I was 12 years old, I thought I would live
with my mother forever because I didn't like the idea of being a
grownup. I certainly had absolutely no ambitions for a particular
jor or even to be married with kids. In fact, I got out my
scrapbook from when I was an early teen and found a note where I had
received my first kiss. The funny thing was that it was 10 years
earlier to the day when my first child was born. I can assure you I
had NO desire to get pregnant and be a mom at the age of 13. But as
a 38 year old, being a mom and wife are the most important things in
my life and I can't imagine doing anything else. Let your child BE
a child and he'll become an adult later. Don't put adult worries
and stress on him now.

Beth M.

marji

--- In [email protected], "freepsgal" <freepsgal@...>
wrote:

> Just for the record, when I was 12 years old, I thought I would live
> with my mother forever because I didn't like the idea of being a
> grownup.

Oh geez! I *still* feel that way!!

~marji

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

> But I worry that he will choose a career that I haven't prepared
> him for and feel hedged in and blame me. I worry that he won't be
> able to pursue his dreams, whatever they may be.

and what if, just what if, he doesn't want a career! what if he wants to do
what's necessary to pay the bills and just live and have fun... what if he
wants to bum around the country or around europe and do odd jobs to get the
money to get where he wants to go next?

are you really concerned with his dreams? or your dreams for him? there's a
HUGE difference!

Lesa McMahon
-I'm 31 years old and my mom still doesn't accept me for who I am and how I
want to live my life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://stoptherod.net/
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."
-John F. Kennedy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/11/06, Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...> wrote:
> and what if, just what if, he doesn't want a career! what if he wants to do
> what's necessary to pay the bills and just live and have fun...

Yeah, he could grow up to be like my friend Jack. Jack is a cement
truck driver and pourer. Doesn't work when it rains, doesn't work
when it snows. Doesn't work weekends most of the time. He lives for
riding his motorcycle, hiking, hunting, camping, and spending time
with his kids (doing all the aforementioned things.) His philosophy
is "work to live don't live to work."


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Laura Reinbach

>
> > But I worry that he will choose a career that I haven't prepared
> > him for and feel hedged in and blame me. I worry that he won't be
> > able to pursue his dreams, whatever they may be.

"freepsgal reply"
What did your parents specifically do that prepared you for being an
> adult? or prepared you for the job you've chosen? Let's start
> there. :)
>

I usually lurk here but just wanted to add my thoughts on this thread.
I went to public school(because that is all my mother knew as well)
and I was expected to go to college afterwards, which I did(I was 17
years old). Well when I got to college I struggled at first because
I didn't know how to study. I certainly didn't do much studying in
high school:) After a semester of bad grades, I figured out how to
study, otherwise I would have failed out. I had know earthly idea
what I wanted to major in aand after 2 years I had to declare one.
So I ended up going through the courses catalog and randomly picked a
major. I finished that, then I was "expected" to get a masters
degree. So I did that too. I worked for a couple of years in my
field. I had my kids and quit to stay home with them. I realized I
never liked what I did because it just wasn't for me. What a waste
really. The thing that is sad to me is that I never figured out what
my passion was. I feel like I never had the chance because I was busy
doing what was expected of me and so much time was wasted in public
school. I don't regret going to college. I just regret I never had
the chance early on to figure out what *I* wanted to do.
So I guess my point here is to leave your son alone and let him figure
out his own path. IF he would ever blame you for something, I think
it would be that you didn't let him figure out his passions and dreams.
Laura
mom to Ethan(5) and Luke(3)

[email protected]

But I worry that he will choose a career that I haven't prepared
> > him for and feel hedged in and blame me. I worry that he won't be
> > able to pursue his dreams, whatever they may be.



I can't help thinking that the world is changing so fast that NO ONE will be
properly prepared for a career, at least in the way we think of it now.

I certainly wasn't "prepared" for computers, but here I am working a
sophisticated piece of machinery casually and confidently.

There are some interesting books out there that speculate on the future of
business, Daniel Pink comes to mind. I believe you would find that most would
advise people to be adaptable and eager to learn if they are going to make
it in a perhaps extremely rapidly changing workplace.

The most prepared people are going to be those that have lived that life of
adaptability and eagerness.....unschoolers!

I do understand your fear, I think it is my husband's biggest fear also.
But I think if you take a look at how many children graduate from school and
still don't pursue their dreams, you'll see that the odds are probably in your
son's favor. He will have already spent his time pursuing his passions, not
sitting in class daydreaming about them.

Another thought, you feel like YOU will take the blame and you cannot put
the blame on school. This is one of the reasons why unschooling takes
courage! *You* become responsible for your child, not the government. It is
interesting to think how a country of upstart revolutionaries with a crazy idea
for self-governing ended up being such pansies and handing their children over
to unknown others for proper socialization.

Leslie in SC, who other than unschooling is pretty much a pansy :)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Reinbach <laura@...>

I went to public school(because that is all my mother knew as well)
and I was expected to go to college afterwards, which I did(I was 17
years old). Well when I got to college I struggled at first because
I didn't know how to study. I certainly didn't do much studying in
high school:) After a semester of bad grades, I figured out how to
study, otherwise I would have failed out. I had know earthly idea
what I wanted to major in aand after 2 years I had to declare one.
So I ended up going through the courses catalog and randomly picked a
major. I finished that, then I was "expected" to get a masters
degree. So I did that too. I worked for a couple of years in my
field. I had my kids and quit to stay home with them. I realized I
never liked what I did because it just wasn't for me. What a waste
really. The thing that is sad to me is that I never figured out what
my passion was. I feel like I never had the chance because I was busy
doing what was expected of me and so much time was wasted in public
school. I don't regret going to college. I just regret I never had
the chance early on to figure out what *I* wanted to do.
So I guess my point here is to leave your son alone and let him figure
out his own path. IF he would ever blame you for something, I think
it would be that you didn't let him figure out his passions and dreams.

-=-=-=-

Unfortunately, I think this story is true for a LOT of people. Waaay
too many!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith


________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Melissa

The GOOD news is that we're unschooling now. I mean, your story could
be mine...the difference being I was told I was going to be a doctor
from the time I was very young. I made it halfway through college
before I realized I had freedom to choose. i still resent my mom for
that. I did waste a lot of time. I wasted a lot of money. I won't say
I wasted college because I loved every class I took with the
exception of maybe three required classes.

Anyway, since our family has moved to unschooling, I've had more
inclination to figure out my passions. I've more time because I'm not
spending all my time trying to subvert my childrens passions. What
*do* you want to do? Because how much better would it be for your
child to see you finding *your* passion and doing what you can to
live it?
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laura Reinbach <laura@...>
> . The thing that is sad to me is that I never figured out what
> my passion was. I feel like I never had the chance because I was busy
> doing what was expected of me and so much time was wasted in public
> school. I don't regret going to college. I just regret I never had
> the chance early on to figure out what *I* wanted to do.
> So I guess my point here is to leave your son alone and let him figure
> out his own path. IF he would ever blame you for something, I think
> it would be that you didn't let him figure out his passions and
> dreams.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

> IF he would ever blame you for something, I think it would be that
> you didn't let him figure out his passions and dreams.
> Laura
> mom to Ethan(5) and Luke(3)

Absolutely. I've known people with a similar story to yours. My
story is a bit different. My mom did not encourage me to go to
college. She believed that college was for wealthy people and she
flat out told me I couldn't go. I graduated high school a semester
earlier than everyone else because I got a job, got a car,
insurance, and moved into a new apartment with my mom so we could be
roommates and share the rent and utilities. Then she encouraged me
to get married as quickly as possible and then nagged me about
grandchildren because she believed that ALL women really wanted to
just be married and have kids.

The funny thing is that my husband decided to finish his Bachelor's
Degree and we moved to a college town. I got a clerical job on
campus and after working there for about a year, I realized that the
students were not special like my mom told me. I realized I could
actually go to college. I had my husband's support as long as we
could manage. That meant that anytime we got really low on money or
behind in payments, I had to quit shool and go back to work full-
time while he continued on to graduate school.

Long story short -- that marriage didn't survive and I never did
earn a college degree. After I was divorced, I asked my mom why she
pushed me into marriage at such a young age and she said she grew up
believing a girl needed a husband to make her happy and support
her. But my mom was divorced when I was 4 yrs. old and didn't
remarry until I was 30 years old! *lol* She was doing fine on her
own but she wasn't happy about it. Now she's in another miserable
marriage but she's happy because at least she's married. Life is
strange. I don't feel like I know enough about life to have
expectations for my children. I just don't feel qualified to tell
them how they should live their lives when I'm still trying to
figure out mine! :)

Beth M.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jun 12, 2006, at 4:31 AM, Laura Reinbach wrote:

> The thing that is sad to me is that I never figured out what
> my passion was. I feel like I never had the chance because I was busy
> doing what was expected of me and so much time was wasted in public
> school. I don't regret going to college. I just regret I never had
> the chance early on to figure out what *I* wanted to do.
> So I guess my point here is to leave your son alone and let him figure
> out his own path. IF he would ever blame you for something, I think
> it would be that you didn't let him figure out his passions and
> dreams.

So many of us could have written this!! It is very sad, isn't it?

My oldest daughter is 21 and is a senior in college and she is SO
happy with her choice. She is majoring in recreation and leisure
studies - her dream is to run a fine arts/outdoor life camp that
helps people engage in deep self-examination into their own passions
and their place in creating social justice in the world. She
absolutely totally thoroughly LOVES what she is doing. It is a
perfect fit for her and it has already opened up many many
opportunities. She's a dreamer, clearly, but here she is taking
courses in everything from child development, outdoor skills,
environmental issues, financial management, grant writing, research
methods, facility design, and administration, so her dreaming is not
idle head in the clouds - but is being grounded in real skills and
knowledge. She sees her college courses as a fantastic opportunity to
squeeze every bit of useful knowledge and information out of her
professors, to help further her own goals.

At 21 she has a passion - a dream - AND she's working in concrete
ways toward that dream.

At 21 I was drifting along, going to school for lack of knowing what
else to do. Trying to study as little as possible and still get
decent grades (for no particular reason other than I was expected to
get good grades). I was mostly interested in my boyfriend and going
to the beach and to parties. My daughter has boyfriends and goes to
the beach and to parties, too, <g> but she's most not "just
drifting," at all.

Well, in the interest of full disclosure, she's probably not "just
drifting, but she's "paddling" a lot - she's off on a 2-week long
kayaking trip in Utah.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle/Melbrigða

On 6/12/06, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Jun 12, 2006, at 4:31 AM, Laura Reinbach wrote:
>
> > The thing that is sad to me is that I never figured out what
> > my passion was.>
>
> So many of us could have written this!! It is very sad, isn't it?
>

The good thing is that it is never too late to discover your
prassions! Do it now and live your life passionately! What a
wonderful lesson for your children - seeing their parents living their
passions. No matter what your passion, you will be able to find a way
to live them - even if, for now, you have to do so in moderation
because of finances and family needs. That doesn't mean though that
you can't strew your passions around yourself and dive into them!

Go be passionate!


--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist

Sabrina Hill

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:


> Imagine you have a HUGE banquet spread before you - so huge that
it
> stretches as far as the eye can see, in all directions. Some of
the
> food is super nutritious, some is so delicious it is heavenly.
>
> Want to create an eating disorder? Force-feed your child! Want him
to
> be resentful? Try to make him eat the super-nutritious and not
the
> enticingly delicious!
>
> He will have a lifetime to sample it all - no need to stuff it
all
> in, today.
>
> What you do, as an unschooling parent, is provide the banquet.
But
> don't make ALL the foods, all at once. Provide little bitty
tidbits
> for him to sample. If he likes things made with potatoes, make
some
> more potato dishes (but not ONLY potato dishes).
>
> LITTLE TIDBITS - like you'd have as a sample. Don't push more
unless
> HE wants more. And even then, go easy, maybe he just wants a
little
> bigger bite. Don't try to make him eat a meal when he's not hungry.
>
> By the way - the huge banquet IS spread before you - it is the
whole
> wide world.
>
> -pam

Pam,

I have been a lurker on this board for some time now and I just had
to tell you that this post you made literally brought me to tears!
It moved me so much! Let me tell you a little background.
I had been a (non-certified) teacher in parochial school for about
15 yrs. My ds was having some anger management and emotional
problems so the school recommended I have him evaluated.
The "Doctor" said he was disturbed and showed signs of trauma and
psychosis! He had never been traumatised by anything that I could
think of! Well unless you count being accidentally left on the
playground at headstart or being accidentally locked in the bathroom
and left there while everyone else in the class went outside -
TWICE - once in kindergarten and again in 2nd grade! I was floored -
my sweet little boy? NO WAY! So I tried to get the schools
assistance with this! What a waste of every one's time! So, after
doing some research I decided to homeschool him. With my teaching
background I was the last person to think that homeschooling was a
good idea - I thought only extremist wackos did that! So, I withdrew
him from school and loved having him home so much that I soon
withdrew my dd. I took my now 12 yo ds out of PS a little over a
year ago, then a few months later my my 7 yo dd. I still had one dd
in HS (10th grade - she did not want to leave her friends). So, I
left her there. Since then we have moved to another state and she
decided to hs. YAY!!! I have looked into unschooling (obviously
since I am on this board) since the beginning but my husband is
TOTALLY not into the whole idea of homeschooling. I have had to
fight every step of the way. I even had to take them out of ps
without his blessing (I don't ask permission for ANYTHING - lol!).
Needless to say that was a rough patch to get through - but here we
are none the less! I tried the school at home thing for a while -
mostly to please dh but when we we getting ready to move - shucks -
there was just no time for "school". It has now been about 6 months
since the move and I just keep putting off school. I keep finding
excuses to start. Thinking to myself that we will just stay like
this and lean more towards unschooling. But - lately I have been
getting worried about my dd and going to college. I talked to her
about it today and she says that she wants to go to college
because "she knows she should". I told her that she didn't
necessarily have to if her interests took her elsewhere (and now I
feel like I am being selfish because I am almost trying to talk her
out of it!). She is very interested in art especially photography.
I am going to arrange that she volunteers at our local little
theater working behind the scenes (she says she is too shy for
anything to do with acting). When I told her about the opportunity
she was really enthusiastic about it and said she wanted to do it!
I know her attitude towards college comes from my dh. Who by the way
has two degrees and a certificate which aren't worth the paper they
are printed on because he doesn't use them or the "education" they
came with in any way and never has. But anyway, I am just so scared
that with only 2 years left (technically speaking), if I
don't "school" her she won't be able to get into art school or
college at all. Get ready for this! ------ I have been looking into
getting a unit studies curriculum to begin in the fall. I am so
confused right now from reading so much info that my head is
spinning.
Then I read your post!
Thank you for your analogy - I was moved to tears because I
really do feel exactly that way inside but these superficial fears
and of course my husband breathing schooling down my neck are about
to drive me insane!!!

Oh and by the way - my son is no longer "psychotic", "angry"
or "disturbed" in any way!(in my eyes never was) I believe
wholeheartedly it was the school which made him act like he was!
Temporary insanity if you will - brought on by a system which was
stifling and oppressive.

Ok, so there you have it. So sorry for such a long post but it has
been a long time coming! Thanks to all who have listened. Your
thoughts, feelings, comments, advice and suggestions are highly
valued and encouraged!!!!

Sabrina Hill
Loving mom to 4 great kids
Kira,15; Ian,12; Zoe,8 and Quinten,2

Lesa ODaniel

Michelle/Melbrig�a wrote:

>>Yeah, he could grow up to be like my friend Jack. Jack is a cement
truck driver and pourer. Doesn't work when it rains, doesn't work
when it snows. Doesn't work weekends most of the time. He lives for
riding his motorcycle, hiking, hunting, camping, and spending time
with his kids (doing all the aforementioned things.) His philosophy
is "work to live don't live to work."<<


After having gone through grad school, getting an MBA and working in the
corporate world for 7 years, my favorite job was waiting tables while I was
going to school. I loved waiting tables and I loved how I could go home and
not think about work - it was over and I got to spend time with my husband
and friends, go to parties, dinner, take off for vacations whenever I
wanted, etc., etc. When I was the most stressed from my corporate job I
would have dreams at night that I was still waiting tables and they were so
stress-free. Sure, it wasn't easy work, but my quality of life was so
different from the one I had when I was doing what I had gone to school
for...



Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 12, 2006, at 7:31 AM, Laura Reinbach wrote:

> The thing that is sad to me is that I never figured out what
> my passion was. I feel like I never had the chance because I was busy
> doing what was expected of me and so much time was wasted in public
> school.

Kathryn and I are listening to a tape that speaks to that very thing:

I Could Do Anything If I Only Knew What It Was : How to Discover What
You Really Want and How to Get It

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440505003/qid=1150192667/sr=2-2/
ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-5649649-0528030?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

by Barbara Sher

(You'll need to paste that URL back together to get it to work.)

She gives practical ideas and exercises on how to figure out what it
is that you really want to do. She talks about how society and the
people in our lives and our own selves have built up walls that keep
us from recognizing it and ways to get past them.

There's some hardcovers at Amazon for less than a dollar if your
library doesn't have it.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]