Making amends...
Lesa ODaniel
How did you all handle crossing the bridge between traditional parenting and
the mindful parenting that is a big part of unschooling?
Specifically, here's my issue. My 2 year old son and I were at a La Leche
League meeting the other day and there was another 2 year old boy there.
They, of course, had their little back and forth periods of wanting a toy
that the other one had (community property, by the way, not either child's
toys) and they played out just fine. At one point, though (and this was
toward the end of the meeting, and likely the end of my son's threshold for
boring meetings such as this) my son went over to the other boy and wrenched
a toy from his hand with some sort of super strength and gave him a push
backward (which I've never seen him do before). I don't know why or where it
came from, but I went over to my son and wrenched the toy from his hand to
give back to the other boy and during our struggle, he hit himself in the
eye with it.
I felt HORRIBLE. I felt icky and still kind of do. How do you make amends
with a child this age (what kind of words do you use)? How long do you wait
to talk about it after you've had an "incident"? By the way, how do you
handle sharing issues when it requires stepping in? I'm usually pretty okay
with the RU ideas and parenting philosophies and have let go of many
controls I had before. However, sometimes the sharing thing confuses me -
and ESPECIALLY in a situation with traditional parents I'm kind of at a loss
regarding how to step in... Thanks in advance. I'm also posting this at
AlwaysUnschooled, by the way.
Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N
_________________________________________________________________
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the mindful parenting that is a big part of unschooling?
Specifically, here's my issue. My 2 year old son and I were at a La Leche
League meeting the other day and there was another 2 year old boy there.
They, of course, had their little back and forth periods of wanting a toy
that the other one had (community property, by the way, not either child's
toys) and they played out just fine. At one point, though (and this was
toward the end of the meeting, and likely the end of my son's threshold for
boring meetings such as this) my son went over to the other boy and wrenched
a toy from his hand with some sort of super strength and gave him a push
backward (which I've never seen him do before). I don't know why or where it
came from, but I went over to my son and wrenched the toy from his hand to
give back to the other boy and during our struggle, he hit himself in the
eye with it.
I felt HORRIBLE. I felt icky and still kind of do. How do you make amends
with a child this age (what kind of words do you use)? How long do you wait
to talk about it after you've had an "incident"? By the way, how do you
handle sharing issues when it requires stepping in? I'm usually pretty okay
with the RU ideas and parenting philosophies and have let go of many
controls I had before. However, sometimes the sharing thing confuses me -
and ESPECIALLY in a situation with traditional parents I'm kind of at a loss
regarding how to step in... Thanks in advance. I'm also posting this at
AlwaysUnschooled, by the way.
Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
marji
At 20:08 6/2/2006, Lesa wrote:
blissfully in the moment, it's not too likely he's going to hang onto
a grudge against you, but you know him way better than I do. If he
were still angry with you, I would wholeheartedly apologize to him in
a way that he can understand. I would tell him I made a mistake and
that I hope he can forgive me. (I have a little practice with this
sort of thing, can you tell?) ;-)
But, no matter what a kid's age, we really need to meet him where
he's at. There is no such thing as "sharing" for a kid that age, and
that's probably why he felt okay to hike over there and wrench that
toy out of the other kid's hand. What must have been very confusing
for him, though, was you saying that it was wrong for him to do
that...and then you went and did the exact, same thing! That'd just
about blow my mind, that's for sure! :-)
When my son was wee and got real attached to things that didn't
belong to him, I did my best to work it out with whoever the thing
belonged to so that we could leave with it and then get it back to
them another time (maybe even in 5 minutes). Distraction also works
sometimes. Whatever it takes to try to keep the peace. Little kids
just do not have the capacity to share, and we should not be forcing
them to do more than they can do! Even "traditional" parents could
understand and agree with that, I'm sure! I've worked that very kind
of thing out with my very mainstream SIL, and she didn't seem to
judge me about it at all (well, not that I was aware of anyway).
But, even if she did, my ONLY concern is the well being and welfare
of my kid and his joy and peace and serenity. I really can let go of
what other folks think of me when I remind myself that what they
think of me isn't nearly as important as how my son is
feeling. Being a Libra, I use the scale to weigh the two. There's no contest!
Anyhooo, I hope that's a little helpful.
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List
"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>....I felt icky and still kind of do. How do you make amendsI think I would apologize to my son after this. Because kids are so
>with a child this age (what kind of words do you use)? How long do you wait
>to talk about it after you've had an "incident"? By the way, how do you
>handle sharing issues when it requires stepping in? I'm usually pretty okay
>with the RU ideas and parenting philosophies and have let go of many
>controls I had before. However, sometimes the sharing thing confuses me -
>and ESPECIALLY in a situation with traditional parents I'm kind of at a loss
>regarding how to step in...
blissfully in the moment, it's not too likely he's going to hang onto
a grudge against you, but you know him way better than I do. If he
were still angry with you, I would wholeheartedly apologize to him in
a way that he can understand. I would tell him I made a mistake and
that I hope he can forgive me. (I have a little practice with this
sort of thing, can you tell?) ;-)
But, no matter what a kid's age, we really need to meet him where
he's at. There is no such thing as "sharing" for a kid that age, and
that's probably why he felt okay to hike over there and wrench that
toy out of the other kid's hand. What must have been very confusing
for him, though, was you saying that it was wrong for him to do
that...and then you went and did the exact, same thing! That'd just
about blow my mind, that's for sure! :-)
When my son was wee and got real attached to things that didn't
belong to him, I did my best to work it out with whoever the thing
belonged to so that we could leave with it and then get it back to
them another time (maybe even in 5 minutes). Distraction also works
sometimes. Whatever it takes to try to keep the peace. Little kids
just do not have the capacity to share, and we should not be forcing
them to do more than they can do! Even "traditional" parents could
understand and agree with that, I'm sure! I've worked that very kind
of thing out with my very mainstream SIL, and she didn't seem to
judge me about it at all (well, not that I was aware of anyway).
But, even if she did, my ONLY concern is the well being and welfare
of my kid and his joy and peace and serenity. I really can let go of
what other folks think of me when I remind myself that what they
think of me isn't nearly as important as how my son is
feeling. Being a Libra, I use the scale to weigh the two. There's no contest!
Anyhooo, I hope that's a little helpful.
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List
"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Lesa ODaniel <lesaodaniel@...>
I felt HORRIBLE. I felt icky and still kind of do. How do you make
amends
with a child this age (what kind of words do you use)? How long do you
wait
to talk about it after you've had an "incident"? By the way, how do
you
handle sharing issues when it requires stepping in? I'm usually pretty
okay
with the RU ideas and parenting philosophies and have let go of many
controls I had before. However, sometimes the sharing thing confuses
me -
and ESPECIALLY in a situation with traditional parents I'm kind of at
a loss
regarding how to step in... Thanks in advance. I'm also posting this
at
AlwaysUnschooled, by the way.
-=-=-=-
A child will let you know when he's ready to share. He'll share! <g>
Until then, he's not ready. Don't force it. It'll work against you.
I agree with Marji: apologize as soon as possible.
But in this particular situation, you both should probably have left
20 minutes earlier. You might want to start looking for his signs
showing he's just about ready to melt down.
He was probably hungry or tired or just over all the mom-talk that
day. That was two year old speak for: "I'm tired, hungry, or ready to
go home." Until he has better communication skills, you need to learn
to speak two-year-old! <bwg>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
From: Lesa ODaniel <lesaodaniel@...>
I felt HORRIBLE. I felt icky and still kind of do. How do you make
amends
with a child this age (what kind of words do you use)? How long do you
wait
to talk about it after you've had an "incident"? By the way, how do
you
handle sharing issues when it requires stepping in? I'm usually pretty
okay
with the RU ideas and parenting philosophies and have let go of many
controls I had before. However, sometimes the sharing thing confuses
me -
and ESPECIALLY in a situation with traditional parents I'm kind of at
a loss
regarding how to step in... Thanks in advance. I'm also posting this
at
AlwaysUnschooled, by the way.
-=-=-=-
A child will let you know when he's ready to share. He'll share! <g>
Until then, he's not ready. Don't force it. It'll work against you.
I agree with Marji: apologize as soon as possible.
But in this particular situation, you both should probably have left
20 minutes earlier. You might want to start looking for his signs
showing he's just about ready to melt down.
He was probably hungry or tired or just over all the mom-talk that
day. That was two year old speak for: "I'm tired, hungry, or ready to
go home." Until he has better communication skills, you need to learn
to speak two-year-old! <bwg>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
marji
At 21:36 6/2/2006, you wrote:
was about a year and a half old. We were at some mom/kid thing that
we used to go to about every week. Liam really liked it 'cause they
had cool toys that we didn't have that he really dug playing
with. We moms would all hang around and talk (well, I would mostly
disagree, but that's another story!). Anyway, one time we had just
gotten there and I had just set my butt down on some little chair,
but Liam had clearly decided he did *not* want to be there. So, what
he did was he found my sling and my backpack (amongst all the other
moms' things) and dragged them over to me. He didn't say one
word. His message was loud and clear, though: "Let's GO!" He never
wanted to go back again, either! What a guy!
~Marji (who's grateful at least one of us knows how to communicate!) <bwg>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>That was two year old speak for: "I'm tired, hungry, or ready toWhat you said just reminded me of something that happened when Liam
>go home." Until he has better communication skills, you need to learn
>to speak two-year-old! <bwg>
was about a year and a half old. We were at some mom/kid thing that
we used to go to about every week. Liam really liked it 'cause they
had cool toys that we didn't have that he really dug playing
with. We moms would all hang around and talk (well, I would mostly
disagree, but that's another story!). Anyway, one time we had just
gotten there and I had just set my butt down on some little chair,
but Liam had clearly decided he did *not* want to be there. So, what
he did was he found my sling and my backpack (amongst all the other
moms' things) and dragged them over to me. He didn't say one
word. His message was loud and clear, though: "Let's GO!" He never
wanted to go back again, either! What a guy!
~Marji (who's grateful at least one of us knows how to communicate!) <bwg>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa ODaniel
Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N
room to look at the baby pictures on the wall, etc. I just don't know if he
*got* it that I was sorry, but, no, he doesn't *seem* to be holding a
grudge.
usually is very willing to share and offer things to other kids. I guess I
just keep falling back into the trap of wanting him to look like a
*well-behaved* child - something I'm trying to stop caring about. I'm
reading Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" right now and it's starting
to sink in and open my eyes, but I need to slow down in social situations
and focus on him, not the other parents.
Thanks for the tips.
_________________________________________________________________
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Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N
>From: marji <marji@...>Yeah, I did apologize and kissed and hugged him and we went into another
>I think I would apologize to my son after this. >
room to look at the baby pictures on the wall, etc. I just don't know if he
*got* it that I was sorry, but, no, he doesn't *seem* to be holding a
grudge.
>But, no matter what a kid's age, we really need to meet him whereIn my mind I know that sharing is just not in his realm right now. He
>he's at. There is no such thing as "sharing" for a kid that age, and
>that's probably why he felt okay to hike over there and wrench that
>toy out of the other kid's hand. What must have been very confusing
>for him, though, was you saying that it was wrong for him to do
>that...and then you went and did the exact, same thing! >
usually is very willing to share and offer things to other kids. I guess I
just keep falling back into the trap of wanting him to look like a
*well-behaved* child - something I'm trying to stop caring about. I'm
reading Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" right now and it's starting
to sink in and open my eyes, but I need to slow down in social situations
and focus on him, not the other parents.
Thanks for the tips.
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
freepsgal
I am honest with my children when I make a mistake. I explain what I
did, why it was wrong and apologize with the hope that I'll learn from
the mistake.
In your situation, I might say something like 'I am so sorry you got
hurt. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have tried to get the toy from
you like that. I should have asked you nicely for it. I know you
want to play with the toy, but you cannot take something away from
someone else and it's really unacceptable to hurt someone by pushing
him down. Let's make sure this little boy is okay and then we can
find another toy that you can play with.' Or something like that.
I apologize as soon as I realize I've made a mistake. It's usually
helpful for my children to see how my emotions and reactions are mixed
together. Plus, I've found that when I begin apologizing, any
negative emotions are tossed aside. I feel humbled and can act more
rationally. :)
Beth M.
did, why it was wrong and apologize with the hope that I'll learn from
the mistake.
In your situation, I might say something like 'I am so sorry you got
hurt. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have tried to get the toy from
you like that. I should have asked you nicely for it. I know you
want to play with the toy, but you cannot take something away from
someone else and it's really unacceptable to hurt someone by pushing
him down. Let's make sure this little boy is okay and then we can
find another toy that you can play with.' Or something like that.
I apologize as soon as I realize I've made a mistake. It's usually
helpful for my children to see how my emotions and reactions are mixed
together. Plus, I've found that when I begin apologizing, any
negative emotions are tossed aside. I feel humbled and can act more
rationally. :)
Beth M.
julie
This reminds me of a time when my boy was little and he was yelling
at me and I yelled at him to not yell at me!! Aaak! I stopped myself
in mid yell and said, "Oh no, look at mommy, I'm yelling at you to
not yell at me! That's not right. That doesn't make sense! I made a
mistake and I'm sorry." and my boy looked at me with a lightbulb
going off in his head and he said,"yeah, mommy, don't yell at me."
and it was like I put into words what he already knew about the
situation. I wasn't being respectful to him. It's not right to yell
at another person to get them to not yell at you. He was just too
little to put it into words. I felt like it was important to say
sorry and admit my mistake, but also put into words what the mistake
was. It seemed to help him. And me.
~~Julie.
--- In [email protected], "Lesa ODaniel"
<lesaodaniel@...> wrote:
<snipped> my son went over to the other boy and
wrenched
at me and I yelled at him to not yell at me!! Aaak! I stopped myself
in mid yell and said, "Oh no, look at mommy, I'm yelling at you to
not yell at me! That's not right. That doesn't make sense! I made a
mistake and I'm sorry." and my boy looked at me with a lightbulb
going off in his head and he said,"yeah, mommy, don't yell at me."
and it was like I put into words what he already knew about the
situation. I wasn't being respectful to him. It's not right to yell
at another person to get them to not yell at you. He was just too
little to put it into words. I felt like it was important to say
sorry and admit my mistake, but also put into words what the mistake
was. It seemed to help him. And me.
~~Julie.
--- In [email protected], "Lesa ODaniel"
<lesaodaniel@...> wrote:
<snipped> my son went over to the other boy and
wrenched
> a toy from his hand with some sort of super strength and gave him apush
> backward (which I've never seen him do before). I don't know why orwhere it
> came from, but I went over to my son and wrenched the toy from hishand to
> give back to the other boy and during our struggle, he hit himselfin the
> eye with it.amends
>
> I felt HORRIBLE. I felt icky and still kind of do. How do you make
> with a child this age (what kind of words do you use)? How long doyou wait
> to talk about it after you've had an "incident"? By the way, how doyou
> handle sharing issues when it requires stepping in?
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
'I am so sorry you got
hurt. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have tried to get the toy from
you like that. I should have asked you nicely for it. I know you
want to play with the toy, but you cannot take something away from
someone else and it's really unacceptable to hurt someone by pushing
him down. Let's make sure this little boy is okay and then we can
find another toy that you can play with.' Or something like that.
**********
I would cut out 90% of the words here when talking to a 2 year old. I like the idea of using less words related to their age. A two year old may start to tune out after a while, So "I'm sorry" is probably sufficient.
I would definately not say this part during my apology:
I know you
want to play with the toy, but you cannot take something away from
someone else and it's really unacceptable to hurt someone by pushing
him down. Let's make sure this little boy is okay and then we can
find another toy that you can play with.
Later, when all is calm, I would talk briefly about grabbing. I've had people apologize to me and then in the same breath almost, point out what *I* did wrong, which somehow diminishes the apology. "I'm sorry I did that but You..."
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hurt. I made a mistake. I shouldn't have tried to get the toy from
you like that. I should have asked you nicely for it. I know you
want to play with the toy, but you cannot take something away from
someone else and it's really unacceptable to hurt someone by pushing
him down. Let's make sure this little boy is okay and then we can
find another toy that you can play with.' Or something like that.
**********
I would cut out 90% of the words here when talking to a 2 year old. I like the idea of using less words related to their age. A two year old may start to tune out after a while, So "I'm sorry" is probably sufficient.
I would definately not say this part during my apology:
I know you
want to play with the toy, but you cannot take something away from
someone else and it's really unacceptable to hurt someone by pushing
him down. Let's make sure this little boy is okay and then we can
find another toy that you can play with.
Later, when all is calm, I would talk briefly about grabbing. I've had people apologize to me and then in the same breath almost, point out what *I* did wrong, which somehow diminishes the apology. "I'm sorry I did that but You..."
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freepsgal
> I would cut out 90% of the words here when talking to a 2 yearWell, I did say 'or something like that'. That type of explanation
> old. I like the idea of using less words related to their age.
worked with all 3 of my children as toddlers. I didn't need to talk
down to them because they were 2. But then again, all kids are
different so what works with mine doesn't work with others. I think
that's a given on a list like this.
> I would definately not say this part during my apology:I must respectfully disagree. I do not consider that 'but' to be
invalidating my apology. My apology would be for MY bad behavior
not apologizing for the child's behavior. I believe if you don't
tell a child what made the situation bad, they may not understand
what the apology is about, or what even caused the whole incident in
the first place. I don't like the method of glossing over just
because they are young. The same thing could be said of all of them
now at the ages of 8, 9 and 14. They are people, regardless of
their ages. Again, this type of parenting is just my way of doing
things. You may disagree but that doesn't make my way wrong, just
different. :)
Beth M.
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
> I would cut out 90% of the words here when talking to a 2 year<<Well, I did say 'or something like that'. >>
> old. I like the idea of using less words related to their age.
*******I know, I wasn't picking on you. I was struck by the wording of something posted and wanted to give my opinion on it.
<<That type of explanation
worked with all 3 of my children as toddlers. I didn't need to talk
down to them because they were 2. >>
**********I'm not advocating talking down. I am advocating communication based upon development. Very small children have a smaller attention span that older children and adults. I have noticed that when I give a long explanation, after a while they get distracted. Keeping things simple is not the same as dumbing down.
<<But then again, all kids are
different so what works with mine doesn't work with others. >>
*********Of course! That's why I was responding to the content of the post because I have experienced a different way.
<<I think
that's a given on a list like this.>>
**********There are people here on all parts of the journey, some may not yet know these "givens".
I, personally, don't think there are any "givens", only words that are written.
>> I would definately not say this part during my apology:I must respectfully disagree.
I do not consider that 'but' to be
invalidating my apology. My apology would be for MY bad behavior
not apologizing for the child's behavior.
I believe if you don't
tell a child what made the situation bad, they may not understand
what the apology is about, or what even caused the whole incident in
the first place. >>
Telling a child a reason a situation became difficult is completely different than apologizing for hurting a child.
Accidentally hurting someone has NOTHING to do with what happened before. I apologized recently to my DH for yelling. Even if DH did something awful that does not give me free license to scream and yell.
I can apologize for one thing without implying that the other person made me do it. That excuse is used for horrible justifications. If she hadn't been wearing a short skirt and high heels, she wouldn't have gotten assaulted. If she had just listened I wouldn't have had to hit her, If you had just put away the dishes I wouldn't have had to yell in the first place and crap like that. If the two seperate statements are put into one paragraph, then the but is implied because the child will then put them together into If I hadn't tried to take away the toy then Mom wouldn't have tried to give it back accidentally hurting me in the process.
<< I don't like the method of glossing over just
because they are young. >>
***********How is keeping explanations on a developmental level glossing over?
<<The same thing could be said of all of them
now at the ages of 8, 9 and 14. >>
***************An explanation on a subject would be drastically different to a 2 year old than to a 14 year old,right?
<< Again, this type of parenting is just my way of doing
things. You may disagree but that doesn't make my way wrong, just
different. :)>>
*************Again, I'm not singling you out, I'm discussing something that was put forth to the list. It touched a chord with me because I have been on the receiving end of an apology that went on to show that if *I* hadn't done "x" then the person apologizing wouldn't have done "y" that needed an apology.
Elissa Jill
A Kindersher saychel iz oychet a saychel.
"A Child's wisdom is also wisdom." ~Yiddish Proverb
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 6/3/06, freepsgal <freepsgal@...> wrote:
before but.
My apology would be for MY bad behavior
truly is separate from the incident that began with how you came to hit your
son with a toy. To him (and to me) they *are* two separate incidents. He
grabbed a toy from another child (first incident) You grabbed the toy from
him and hit him in the head (second incident) You apologized for the second
incident, but linked it to the first one by talking about it. Therefore in
his little mind he thinks that he got hit by the toy because he took the toy
from another child.
Also talks like you had following the "but" of your apology are something
that should be done one on one later when he is calm, not emotionally
charged and you can do with his attention not being on his bonked head. You
could even start the conversation with something like, "Everyone sure liked
that one toy today didn't they? I wonder if we could find a few more of
them to put in the LLL toybag so that more kids can play with them and there
maybe we can avert some struggles next time." and then go about with a talk
about taking turns and how when there is only one we have to share. Then
call whoever is in charge of the LLL toybag and ask if they know where that
one toy came from.
I'm having my own issues with LLL this week and seriously considering
retiring as a Leader. It's the moms that are keeping me from just throwing
my hat in and saying, "Die you wretched beast!" But one of the issues that
I have had for a while now has been the shift from "unschooly breastfeeding"
to "schooly discipline." If you think about how babies and toddlers are
respected in regards to breastfeeding - on cue, self weaning, no clocks,
meet needs, etc and then how suddenly there are all these rules about how
they are supposed to behave and act and learn. I've been looking at some of
the material lately for "gentle discipline" and it truly reads like a "how
to prepare your child so that they will fit into school" program. I've
really seen unstructured breastfeeding as the first part of a natural step
towards unschooling!
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>actually, anytime you say the word "but" it negates everything you said
>
>
> I must respectfully disagree. I do not consider that 'but' to be
> invalidating my apology.
before but.
My apology would be for MY bad behavior
> not apologizing for the child's behavior. I believe if you don'tAh, but you have two things going on here. You have your apology which
> tell a child what made the situation bad, they may not understand
> what the apology is about, or what even caused the whole incident in
> the first place.
truly is separate from the incident that began with how you came to hit your
son with a toy. To him (and to me) they *are* two separate incidents. He
grabbed a toy from another child (first incident) You grabbed the toy from
him and hit him in the head (second incident) You apologized for the second
incident, but linked it to the first one by talking about it. Therefore in
his little mind he thinks that he got hit by the toy because he took the toy
from another child.
Also talks like you had following the "but" of your apology are something
that should be done one on one later when he is calm, not emotionally
charged and you can do with his attention not being on his bonked head. You
could even start the conversation with something like, "Everyone sure liked
that one toy today didn't they? I wonder if we could find a few more of
them to put in the LLL toybag so that more kids can play with them and there
maybe we can avert some struggles next time." and then go about with a talk
about taking turns and how when there is only one we have to share. Then
call whoever is in charge of the LLL toybag and ask if they know where that
one toy came from.
I'm having my own issues with LLL this week and seriously considering
retiring as a Leader. It's the moms that are keeping me from just throwing
my hat in and saying, "Die you wretched beast!" But one of the issues that
I have had for a while now has been the shift from "unschooly breastfeeding"
to "schooly discipline." If you think about how babies and toddlers are
respected in regards to breastfeeding - on cue, self weaning, no clocks,
meet needs, etc and then how suddenly there are all these rules about how
they are supposed to behave and act and learn. I've been looking at some of
the material lately for "gentle discipline" and it truly reads like a "how
to prepare your child so that they will fit into school" program. I've
really seen unstructured breastfeeding as the first part of a natural step
towards unschooling!
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: freepsgal <freepsgal@...>
I must respectfully disagree. I do not consider that 'but' to be
invalidating my apology. My apology would be for MY bad behavior
not apologizing for the child's behavior. I believe if you don't
tell a child what made the situation bad, they may not understand
what the apology is about, or what even caused the whole incident in
the first place.
-=-=-=-
Possibly what caused the whole incident in the first place was to not
leave a little sooner!
"I'm sorry I tried to wrench that toy from your hand. That was wrong,"
would have been enough.
--=-=-=-
I don't like the method of glossing over just because they are young.
-=-=-
Not glossing over, just not going on & on & on & on. A simple apology
from you might have made a HUGE difference. For a two year old, a nine
year old, or a 43 year old! You were wrong. Let him hear that without
all the other fluff. If he knows even *you* make mistakes, he'll feel
empowered to do better and be better too.
*Later* you could talk about reading his cues better---or if he's
feeling overwhelmed that he can come to you to leave and that you'd DO
that immediately.
*Later* you can discuss *why* it's wrong to wrench things from others
or to yell or ...
*Later* you can brainstorm about other possible solutions.
But *at the time* just saying "I'm sorry" should suffice.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
From: freepsgal <freepsgal@...>
I must respectfully disagree. I do not consider that 'but' to be
invalidating my apology. My apology would be for MY bad behavior
not apologizing for the child's behavior. I believe if you don't
tell a child what made the situation bad, they may not understand
what the apology is about, or what even caused the whole incident in
the first place.
-=-=-=-
Possibly what caused the whole incident in the first place was to not
leave a little sooner!
"I'm sorry I tried to wrench that toy from your hand. That was wrong,"
would have been enough.
--=-=-=-
I don't like the method of glossing over just because they are young.
-=-=-
Not glossing over, just not going on & on & on & on. A simple apology
from you might have made a HUGE difference. For a two year old, a nine
year old, or a 43 year old! You were wrong. Let him hear that without
all the other fluff. If he knows even *you* make mistakes, he'll feel
empowered to do better and be better too.
*Later* you could talk about reading his cues better---or if he's
feeling overwhelmed that he can come to you to leave and that you'd DO
that immediately.
*Later* you can discuss *why* it's wrong to wrench things from others
or to yell or ...
*Later* you can brainstorm about other possible solutions.
But *at the time* just saying "I'm sorry" should suffice.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
susan throssell
Hi,
just could do with some new advice,
we've just become relaxed about food and my 8 year old is enjoying eating
sweets without restriction.
I have noticed that after eating them he starts swearing/shouting/acting out
ALOT more than normal. I had up until recently limited his intake of
certain ingredients in foods because of this, but of course now dont want
to.
He says he doesnt really like the way he feels, (although i'm not sure how
much i have influenced this opinion), and has said he wont eat sweets after
6 as they stop him from feeling tired. Today he wanted sweets after 6, I
reminded him of his decision and left it at that.......he had the sweets.
I'm just wondering how I should react when he starts behaving differently.
SHould I mention the sweets? SHould I keep reminding him of his decision,
(not sure if he made this to please me). I really dont like sweets and so
dont want to particularly eat them with him, is that ok?
Im sure this is going to be a common question. and Im hoping for the usual
fantastic suggestions I have received/read.
Susan
just could do with some new advice,
we've just become relaxed about food and my 8 year old is enjoying eating
sweets without restriction.
I have noticed that after eating them he starts swearing/shouting/acting out
ALOT more than normal. I had up until recently limited his intake of
certain ingredients in foods because of this, but of course now dont want
to.
He says he doesnt really like the way he feels, (although i'm not sure how
much i have influenced this opinion), and has said he wont eat sweets after
6 as they stop him from feeling tired. Today he wanted sweets after 6, I
reminded him of his decision and left it at that.......he had the sweets.
I'm just wondering how I should react when he starts behaving differently.
SHould I mention the sweets? SHould I keep reminding him of his decision,
(not sure if he made this to please me). I really dont like sweets and so
dont want to particularly eat them with him, is that ok?
Im sure this is going to be a common question. and Im hoping for the usual
fantastic suggestions I have received/read.
Susan
Tina Layne
HI there,
I belong to the Feingold Association (feingold.org) and we are all positive that sugar and "sweets" aren't the problem with bad behavior such as swearing, shouting, crankiness, etc. It's the fake stuff in the foods. My kids eat sugary things frequently, and love chocolate, but they only eat natural products with nothing artificial, or homemade goodies, and the worse that we get is a belly ache from eating a little too much at a time. The fakes are what send them off.
Basically, we eliminate artificial colors and flavors as well as the preservatives BHA, BHT, and TBHQ. (All of these preservatives, fake colors, and fake flavors are petroleum based.) I had many of the same concerns that you mentioned with my children when they ate certain things, and this program has really helped.
Are the sweets homemade? Do they have anything artificial (example: M&M's in choc chip cookies, or artifical vanilla or other flavored extracts?) Are the sweets storebought? Are they full of fake colors or use artificial flavorings and vanillin? These things will be listed on the labels of the foods. Could it be corn syrup causing the problem? CS doesn't affect everyone but some folks it does cause an allergic reaction close to the behavior you are talking about.
HTH!
Tina
susan throssell <susanthrossell@...> wrote:
Hi,
just could do with some new advice,
we've just become relaxed about food and my 8 year old is enjoying eating
sweets without restriction.
I have noticed that after eating them he starts swearing/shouting/acting out
ALOT more than normal. I had up until recently limited his intake of
certain ingredients in foods because of this, but of course now dont want
to.
He says he doesnt really like the way he feels, (although i'm not sure how
much i have influenced this opinion), and has said he wont eat sweets after
6 as they stop him from feeling tired. Today he wanted sweets after 6, I
reminded him of his decision and left it at that.......he had the sweets.
I'm just wondering how I should react when he starts behaving differently.
SHould I mention the sweets? SHould I keep reminding him of his decision,
(not sure if he made this to please me). I really dont like sweets and so
dont want to particularly eat them with him, is that ok?
Im sure this is going to be a common question. and Im hoping for the usual
fantastic suggestions I have received/read.
Susan
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I belong to the Feingold Association (feingold.org) and we are all positive that sugar and "sweets" aren't the problem with bad behavior such as swearing, shouting, crankiness, etc. It's the fake stuff in the foods. My kids eat sugary things frequently, and love chocolate, but they only eat natural products with nothing artificial, or homemade goodies, and the worse that we get is a belly ache from eating a little too much at a time. The fakes are what send them off.
Basically, we eliminate artificial colors and flavors as well as the preservatives BHA, BHT, and TBHQ. (All of these preservatives, fake colors, and fake flavors are petroleum based.) I had many of the same concerns that you mentioned with my children when they ate certain things, and this program has really helped.
Are the sweets homemade? Do they have anything artificial (example: M&M's in choc chip cookies, or artifical vanilla or other flavored extracts?) Are the sweets storebought? Are they full of fake colors or use artificial flavorings and vanillin? These things will be listed on the labels of the foods. Could it be corn syrup causing the problem? CS doesn't affect everyone but some folks it does cause an allergic reaction close to the behavior you are talking about.
HTH!
Tina
susan throssell <susanthrossell@...> wrote:
Hi,
just could do with some new advice,
we've just become relaxed about food and my 8 year old is enjoying eating
sweets without restriction.
I have noticed that after eating them he starts swearing/shouting/acting out
ALOT more than normal. I had up until recently limited his intake of
certain ingredients in foods because of this, but of course now dont want
to.
He says he doesnt really like the way he feels, (although i'm not sure how
much i have influenced this opinion), and has said he wont eat sweets after
6 as they stop him from feeling tired. Today he wanted sweets after 6, I
reminded him of his decision and left it at that.......he had the sweets.
I'm just wondering how I should react when he starts behaving differently.
SHould I mention the sweets? SHould I keep reminding him of his decision,
(not sure if he made this to please me). I really dont like sweets and so
dont want to particularly eat them with him, is that ok?
Im sure this is going to be a common question. and Im hoping for the usual
fantastic suggestions I have received/read.
Susan
SPONSORED LINKS
Secondary school education Graduate school education Home school education Graduate school education online High school education Chicago school education
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Michelle/Melbrigða wrote:
hoping Kelly the resident grammar nazi would jump on it.
"But" is a coordinating conjunction that indicates exception or
contrast; it doesn't negate. But, it could cause someone to feel as if
everything that came before was overwhelmed or overshadowed by the
exception or contrast, which I'm guessing is the point being made.
Sorry, I just chafed at the "anytime" absolute of the phrasing above...
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org
>Okay, I tried to let this one go, but it got under my skin. ;) I was
>
> actually, anytime you say the word "but" it negates everything you said
> before but.
hoping Kelly the resident grammar nazi would jump on it.
"But" is a coordinating conjunction that indicates exception or
contrast; it doesn't negate. But, it could cause someone to feel as if
everything that came before was overwhelmed or overshadowed by the
exception or contrast, which I'm guessing is the point being made.
Sorry, I just chafed at the "anytime" absolute of the phrasing above...
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (6)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org
Michelle/Melbrigða
On 6/3/06, Tina Layne <tinalayne@...> wrote:
"natural and artificial flavors" is a keyword for MSG! It's all the dyes,
flavorings, and perservatives that are prevelant in mass produced
convenience foods that are a problem.
But to reply to the OP. Your son may need a few experimentations with
sweets to truly understand that he doesn't like the effects of certain
products on his body. And this is a fairly new concept for him (and you.)
It's those repeated tapes that Kelly mentioned this week. We still hear
those things going through our heads and unfortunately, we can't just "tape
over them" and forget what used to be there. When I was in college I hung
out with an, well, eclectic crowd. It was the theatre people. So we had a
mix of real odd-balls including a few guys who worked as drag queens on the
weekends to fund their way through college (hated those guys - it was not
fair for them to look more like a woman that I did LOL!) Anyway, many of
them were more than casual drug users. So one night at one of the members'
apartments someone brought out some pot. I thought, "Heck, why not?" and
tried it. HATED the way I felt the next morning. But a few weeks later I
used it again. Again I HATED the way I felt the next morning. Took me
about 4 tries to really listen to my body and allow myself to say, "I
dislike the way that I feel the next morning more than I like the way I feel
the night of." Fortunately, I internalized all this or I probably would
have been a drug addict had I shared this with friends. "Ah, but if you are
high all the time, then you don't have to worry about being down."
I think food is the same way. We have to truly experience discomfort and
make a decision about whether we want to feel that badly again. Your son
will be able to do that if he is given the opportunity to work it out
himself and if he sees you working through it as well. I think most people
in today's society have an unheatlhy relationship with food.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I couldn't agree more with this statement. I recently found out that
> HI there,
>
> I belong to the Feingold Association (feingold.org) and we are all
> positive that sugar and "sweets" aren't the problem with bad behavior such
> as swearing, shouting, crankiness, etc. It's the fake stuff in the
> foods. My kids eat sugary things frequently, and love chocolate, but they
> only eat natural products with nothing artificial, or homemade goodies, and
> the worse that we get is a belly ache from eating a little too much at a
> time. The fakes are what send them off.
"natural and artificial flavors" is a keyword for MSG! It's all the dyes,
flavorings, and perservatives that are prevelant in mass produced
convenience foods that are a problem.
But to reply to the OP. Your son may need a few experimentations with
sweets to truly understand that he doesn't like the effects of certain
products on his body. And this is a fairly new concept for him (and you.)
It's those repeated tapes that Kelly mentioned this week. We still hear
those things going through our heads and unfortunately, we can't just "tape
over them" and forget what used to be there. When I was in college I hung
out with an, well, eclectic crowd. It was the theatre people. So we had a
mix of real odd-balls including a few guys who worked as drag queens on the
weekends to fund their way through college (hated those guys - it was not
fair for them to look more like a woman that I did LOL!) Anyway, many of
them were more than casual drug users. So one night at one of the members'
apartments someone brought out some pot. I thought, "Heck, why not?" and
tried it. HATED the way I felt the next morning. But a few weeks later I
used it again. Again I HATED the way I felt the next morning. Took me
about 4 tries to really listen to my body and allow myself to say, "I
dislike the way that I feel the next morning more than I like the way I feel
the night of." Fortunately, I internalized all this or I probably would
have been a drug addict had I shared this with friends. "Ah, but if you are
high all the time, then you don't have to worry about being down."
I think food is the same way. We have to truly experience discomfort and
make a decision about whether we want to feel that badly again. Your son
will be able to do that if he is given the opportunity to work it out
himself and if he sees you working through it as well. I think most people
in today's society have an unheatlhy relationship with food.
--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com
[email protected] - Homeschooling for the Medieval Recreationist
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freepsgal
> actually, anytime you say the word "but" it negates everything youYes, in formal grammar, BUT not in my real life. Something can
> said before but.
happen but something else can happen too. I had to sit here and
think about the usage of this word for about 15 minutes before I
could reply. I have finally determined that I'm using the
word 'but' in a slang manner I guess. To you, I used the word
incorrectly. I apologize for my bad grammar. I wonder if a
traditional schooler would find that a good argument for making sure
children learn proper grammar and why unschooling wouldn't work well
in the "real world". :)
I never realized just how many definitions the word 'but' has. I
googled for it and found this: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/but
It's very interesting!
> Ah, but you have two things going on here.I do see your point because you explained it so clearly, however
(notice I didn't use but) I absolutely wouldn't have considered that
in my mind. I see the two things as very related. It's
consequences of behavior. I see it like this: My son just caused
another child bodily harm which is definitely not okay with me. In
an effort to help the situation, my first reaction is an
overreaction and I try to take the toy away. My son gets hit with
the toy so now we have 2 children hurt and I'm feeling guilty
because I handled the situation wrong. I immediately hold my son,
give him a hug and apologize for him being hurt when I tried to take
the toy away. [Here is where I would comfort my child and wait for
his tears to go away so he can be in functioning mode.] Also, I let
him know that when he grabbed the toy away from the other child and
pushed him down, that little boy got hurt too. When we overreact,
bad consequences can happen. See? Mom overreacted and you got hurt
on accident. You overreacted and the other child got hurt. He had
the toy first and it's only proper to give it back to him and it's
also important to make sure he is okay because hurting someone and
not showing empathy is not okay. I'm not suggesting one
child 'mother' the other, but a direct look and an apology is just a
good thing as I modeled when I apologized for grabbing the toy and
it hitting my son.
> Also talks like you had following the "but" of your apology areOh my. *lol* I never meant to imply to kick him when he's down.
> something that should be done one on one later when he is calm,
> not emotionally charged and you can do with his attention not
> being on his bonked head.
When I responded to the original poster, I was simply providing some
example words because she asked specifically, to quote her, "...
(what kind of words do you use)?" I suppose I'm in error here
because I wasn't blatantly clear to wait until the child is no
longer crying before talking the issue over with him. [I'm going to
edit the paragraph above now that I feel I need to add in a pause
here.] It didn't even cross my mind that I would need to mention
that. I guess I just felt like all moms would feel the same way.
See how easy it is to assume? In that situation, I would have first
held my child while also making sure the other child was okay, and
after the tears stopped I would have talked. But I wouldn't wait
until much later like at home because by then the situation may have
been totally forgotten and the explanation meaningless. Or maybe
that's just my children.
Beth M.
freepsgal
> *************Again, I'm not singling you out, I'm discussingResponding by directly quoting me is singling me out. Another way
> something that was put forth to the list. It touched a chord with
> me because I have been on the receiving end of an apology that went
> on to show that if *I* hadn't done "x" then the person apologizing
> wouldn't have done "y" that needed an apology.
> Elissa Jill
to approach it would have been to reply directly to the original
poster's note. We all have our own baggage. I was responding from
the mother of a child who has been hurt by someone else who didn't
care that my child was hurt in the process. It left him feeling
like he was a stupid, bad person (his actual words) because the boy
had been mean and then the mother took him away from my son. I also
totally understand that very young children have short attention
spans. However, not ALL 2 year old children lack the ability to
understand deeper communication. For all we know, the original
poster has a child much like my children. Yes, obviously a
discussion with a 2 year old would be different from a discussion
with a 14 year old. I didn't mean to imply that. What I was trying
to say was that each of my children, ages 8, 9 and 14, could be
considered too young for any discussion because they might not
understand. I know parents who feel that way. I, however, do not
feel that way.
I'm truly sorry I even entered into the conversation. My kids were
talking in complete sentences and carrying on full conversations at
the age of 2 which some adults did find creepy and I totally forgot
about that until I read the responses to my note.
Beth M.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: freepsgal <freepsgal@...>
My kids were
talking in complete sentences and carrying on full conversations at
the age of 2 which some adults did find creepy
-=-=-=-=
I don't find it creepy at all, but I think it's important to realize
that some children who are speaking very early may not necessarily
understand all that's said to them---they hear what you *say*, but
don't always understand what you *mean*.
At the same time, children who are very late to speak may deeply
understand almost everything you say to them even though they never say
a word in return.
And then there's everything in between! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
From: freepsgal <freepsgal@...>
My kids were
talking in complete sentences and carrying on full conversations at
the age of 2 which some adults did find creepy
-=-=-=-=
I don't find it creepy at all, but I think it's important to realize
that some children who are speaking very early may not necessarily
understand all that's said to them---they hear what you *say*, but
don't always understand what you *mean*.
At the same time, children who are very late to speak may deeply
understand almost everything you say to them even though they never say
a word in return.
And then there's everything in between! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 3, 2006, at 7:57 PM, freepsgal wrote:
isn't, help in figuring out better ways to act.
I also agree it's good to apologize when we've done something wrong
to our kids.
BUT ;-) in this instance, you can't effectively do both. If you say
"You were wrong" after saying "I was wrong" he's not going to hear
either one because you're effectively saying you were justified in
taking the toy. You may have said you were wrong but the "but" says
it was okay because he was even more wrong. At that point he'll shut
down listening because he's focusing on how wronged he is and that
part isn't being set right.
He's still figuring out social skills. He needs *help* in figuring
out better choices far more than he needs his faults pointed out.
But what he does fully grasp is that it's wrong for you to grab a toy
from him. And he'll understand (in his own way) an apology.
What you're modeling for him with "I was wrong but you were wrong
too" in effect is that it's okay for him to say:
"I'm sorry I kicked you but you didn't get my milk fast enough."
"I'm sorry I lied, but I knew you wouldn't let me."
"I'm sorry I got that girl pregnant, but opportunity and hormones
overcame me."
"I'm was wrong, but I was justified in doing it anyway."
He's going to make the same mistake again grabbing a toy. (And if he
doesn't, then he didn't need his mistake pointed out!) You can use
future incidents to *help him find a better way to react*. That
instance should have been for apologizing for what you did wrong.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I see it like this: My son just causedI agree that kids need help understanding what's acceptable and what
> another child bodily harm which is definitely not okay with me.
isn't, help in figuring out better ways to act.
I also agree it's good to apologize when we've done something wrong
to our kids.
BUT ;-) in this instance, you can't effectively do both. If you say
"You were wrong" after saying "I was wrong" he's not going to hear
either one because you're effectively saying you were justified in
taking the toy. You may have said you were wrong but the "but" says
it was okay because he was even more wrong. At that point he'll shut
down listening because he's focusing on how wronged he is and that
part isn't being set right.
He's still figuring out social skills. He needs *help* in figuring
out better choices far more than he needs his faults pointed out.
But what he does fully grasp is that it's wrong for you to grab a toy
from him. And he'll understand (in his own way) an apology.
What you're modeling for him with "I was wrong but you were wrong
too" in effect is that it's okay for him to say:
"I'm sorry I kicked you but you didn't get my milk fast enough."
"I'm sorry I lied, but I knew you wouldn't let me."
"I'm sorry I got that girl pregnant, but opportunity and hormones
overcame me."
"I'm was wrong, but I was justified in doing it anyway."
He's going to make the same mistake again grabbing a toy. (And if he
doesn't, then he didn't need his mistake pointed out!) You can use
future incidents to *help him find a better way to react*. That
instance should have been for apologizing for what you did wrong.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Renee McGraw
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Michelle/Melbrigða
Ah, but you have two things going on here. You have your apology which
truly is separate from the incident that began with how you came to hit your
son with a toy. To him (and to me) they *are* two separate incidents. He
grabbed a toy from another child (first incident) You grabbed the toy from
him and hit him in the head (second incident) You apologized for the second
incident, but linked it to the first one by talking about it. Therefore in
his little mind he thinks that he got hit by the toy because he took the toy
from another child.
~~~~~something along the lines from the adult saying "Honey I'm sorry I
grabbed the toy from you like that. Next time I will help you w/ respect
for your feelings." or maybe ".....Next time we will try to work things out
differently with the toys."
I agree that the explanation should be short enough so a child of two
doesn't tune out a long explanation, but just "I'm sorry" w/o any follow up
statement doesn't seem to wholly connect the sequence that led up to the
events.
What do you you all think? Would the statement above validate that the
adult was wrong w/o trying to justify those actions or lay blame on the
child?
I ask because I am guilty of reacting the exact same way in those
situations.
It really is a knee jerk reaction on my part that I would like to examine.
Thanks,
Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Michelle/Melbrigða
Ah, but you have two things going on here. You have your apology which
truly is separate from the incident that began with how you came to hit your
son with a toy. To him (and to me) they *are* two separate incidents. He
grabbed a toy from another child (first incident) You grabbed the toy from
him and hit him in the head (second incident) You apologized for the second
incident, but linked it to the first one by talking about it. Therefore in
his little mind he thinks that he got hit by the toy because he took the toy
from another child.
~~~~~something along the lines from the adult saying "Honey I'm sorry I
grabbed the toy from you like that. Next time I will help you w/ respect
for your feelings." or maybe ".....Next time we will try to work things out
differently with the toys."
I agree that the explanation should be short enough so a child of two
doesn't tune out a long explanation, but just "I'm sorry" w/o any follow up
statement doesn't seem to wholly connect the sequence that led up to the
events.
What do you you all think? Would the statement above validate that the
adult was wrong w/o trying to justify those actions or lay blame on the
child?
I ask because I am guilty of reacting the exact same way in those
situations.
It really is a knee jerk reaction on my part that I would like to examine.
Thanks,
Renee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***Responding by directly quoting me is singling me out. ***
Please don't take these discussions personally. If you can't stand to be
quoted then don't post. If you post something here it's up for
discussion. That's how it works.
I think if you go back in a couple of days and read this thread again
you'll have a different perspective. If not, then a couple of days will
have passed the topic will have moved on. <g>
Deb Lewis
Please don't take these discussions personally. If you can't stand to be
quoted then don't post. If you post something here it's up for
discussion. That's how it works.
I think if you go back in a couple of days and read this thread again
you'll have a different perspective. If not, then a couple of days will
have passed the topic will have moved on. <g>
Deb Lewis
marji
At 22:41 6/3/2006, you wrote:
me (and not one word more!):
"I'm so sorry to have hurt you; I made a mistake and I was wrong. Is
there anything I can do to make amends?"
If there had to be other words, I would want the words to show
empathy for my "loss" (i.e., "that must have been frightening to you
when I did that" or "it must have been confusing when I told you it
was wrong to do that and then did it myself!").
Here's my thinking on the subject, and it may sound a tad harsh, but
here it is: The moment I lost it and made a grab for the toy myself,
I temporarily gave up the moral authority to tell my son what he
should morally do! Now, I have to demonstrate to him (or anybody I
had wronged) what "making amends" really means! It doesn't just mean
saying sorry; it's putting your money where your mouth is and proving
you're sorry. According to the Onelook quick definition, it
means: "something done or paid in expiation of a wrong" or "a sum of
money paid in compensation for loss or injury." I think that's
important to note, especially since this thread's title contains that word!
So, if I have bullied my kid, which comes~~unfortunately~~naturally
to us parent-folks who are probably having to feel our way through an
entirely different model of parenting than we saw, I really have to
do the right thing now. I have to create a new model for myself (and
my kid) and do a different thing than the knee-jerk reaction would have me do.
Truth is, I do come a little unhinged sometimes and say things or act
in a way that I recognize to be more like my folks than the way I
want to be. I'm not too hard on myself 'cause I can understand why I
do it, and I forgive myself. But, that does not mean I shouldn't
accept full responsibility for my words and actions. I *always*
sincerely apologize to my son when these little events happen and
offer to make amends (which is whatever *he* decides, not me). At
the very least, I make sure I demonstrate empathy for him! I do not
get all didactic and wordy (like I'm being right now!) and use them
as "teaching moments," though. (Truthfully, *every moment* is a
*learning* moment; had I *not* apologized, my son would have come
away from the experience having learned something that may not be so
desirable, like "Mom is just a big ole bully who says one thing and
does another!")
I believe that it really isn't about not making mistakes. It's
entirely about how we handle our mistakes when we inevitably make
them. Actually, if they don't kill me, I tend to learn from my
mistakes, so I don't mind 'em too much (of course, the smaller, the
better!). But, I think making mistakes is one of those things we (as
learning machines) need to do, and for my part I want to make them as
gracefully as I can, if I can. I also see myself as more of a model
for my son than a teacher, and it's not what I *say* but what I *do*
that really matters.
Well, there's my $2 worth (inflation, you know). Aren't you sorry
you asked? ;-)
~Marji (up at this ungodly hour before even the birds to begin
working. Oh wait! I just heard the first bird!!)
Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List
"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>~~~~~something along the lines from the adult saying "Honey I'm sorry IThis is what *I* would like to hear if *I* had an apology coming to
>grabbed the toy from you like that. Next time I will help you w/ respect
>for your feelings." or maybe ".....Next time we will try to work things out
>differently with the toys."
>I agree that the explanation should be short enough so a child of two
>doesn't tune out a long explanation, but just "I'm sorry" w/o any follow up
>statement doesn't seem to wholly connect the sequence that led up to the
>events.
me (and not one word more!):
"I'm so sorry to have hurt you; I made a mistake and I was wrong. Is
there anything I can do to make amends?"
If there had to be other words, I would want the words to show
empathy for my "loss" (i.e., "that must have been frightening to you
when I did that" or "it must have been confusing when I told you it
was wrong to do that and then did it myself!").
Here's my thinking on the subject, and it may sound a tad harsh, but
here it is: The moment I lost it and made a grab for the toy myself,
I temporarily gave up the moral authority to tell my son what he
should morally do! Now, I have to demonstrate to him (or anybody I
had wronged) what "making amends" really means! It doesn't just mean
saying sorry; it's putting your money where your mouth is and proving
you're sorry. According to the Onelook quick definition, it
means: "something done or paid in expiation of a wrong" or "a sum of
money paid in compensation for loss or injury." I think that's
important to note, especially since this thread's title contains that word!
So, if I have bullied my kid, which comes~~unfortunately~~naturally
to us parent-folks who are probably having to feel our way through an
entirely different model of parenting than we saw, I really have to
do the right thing now. I have to create a new model for myself (and
my kid) and do a different thing than the knee-jerk reaction would have me do.
Truth is, I do come a little unhinged sometimes and say things or act
in a way that I recognize to be more like my folks than the way I
want to be. I'm not too hard on myself 'cause I can understand why I
do it, and I forgive myself. But, that does not mean I shouldn't
accept full responsibility for my words and actions. I *always*
sincerely apologize to my son when these little events happen and
offer to make amends (which is whatever *he* decides, not me). At
the very least, I make sure I demonstrate empathy for him! I do not
get all didactic and wordy (like I'm being right now!) and use them
as "teaching moments," though. (Truthfully, *every moment* is a
*learning* moment; had I *not* apologized, my son would have come
away from the experience having learned something that may not be so
desirable, like "Mom is just a big ole bully who says one thing and
does another!")
I believe that it really isn't about not making mistakes. It's
entirely about how we handle our mistakes when we inevitably make
them. Actually, if they don't kill me, I tend to learn from my
mistakes, so I don't mind 'em too much (of course, the smaller, the
better!). But, I think making mistakes is one of those things we (as
learning machines) need to do, and for my part I want to make them as
gracefully as I can, if I can. I also see myself as more of a model
for my son than a teacher, and it's not what I *say* but what I *do*
that really matters.
Well, there's my $2 worth (inflation, you know). Aren't you sorry
you asked? ;-)
~Marji (up at this ungodly hour before even the birds to begin
working. Oh wait! I just heard the first bird!!)
>_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
Marji
<http://www.gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf
<http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/GaiaWolf/>Join the GaiaWolf Mailing List
"The animals of this world exist for their own reasons. They were
not made for humans any more than blacks were made for whites or
women created for men."
~Alice Walker
_.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._.:~`^'~:._
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: susan throssell <susanthrossell@...
He says he doesnt really like the way he feels, (although i'm not sure
how
much i have influenced this opinion), and has said he wont eat sweets
after
6 as they stop him from feeling tired. Today he wanted sweets after 6,
I
reminded him of his decision and left it at that.......he had the
sweets.
I'm just wondering how I should react when he starts behaving
differently.
SHould I mention the sweets? SHould I keep reminding him of his
decision,
(not sure if he made this to please me). I really dont like sweets and
so
dont want to particularly eat them with him, is that ok?
-=-=-=-=-
It *could* very well be the additives and not the sugar, but either
way:
If he IS noticing that he feels yucky after eating something, that's
good!
Learning what makes us feel bad, good, and better is the first step to
knowing what's best for us as individuals.
I'll insert the pot thang here! <G>
Cameron was smoking marijuana. I guess I could have reacted like all
the mainstream parents I know and forbade it. Could have. Instead we
talked about it. I gave my reasons why not. He did his own research
personally and online. He had some good reasons why it wasn't harmful.
My two main reasons against were that it was illegal (and if caught, it
could mean fines/prosecution/prison time not to mention it could
jeopardize our unschooling) and it could hinder driving abilities. The
compromise was that he wouldn't smoke and drive (I would pick him up if
he called, which I did several times).
The other day he told me it made him feel bad the next day. Really
bad. I've never smoked, so I guess he meant hungover-bad. I don't think
that will stop him from taking a toke every now and then, but I know he
won't be in a Ridgemont High Fog all the time! <G> Essentially, he's
quit. The bad feeling outweighs the initial good feeling. *His* choice.
Keeping our kids from things *we* perceive as dangerous or bad for us
doesn't have the same power as things *they* decide aren't good for
them. They're rational, smart human beings who need to feel their way
about in the world. They *want* to feel happy and healthy and strong.
If a child decides that a diet high in sugar makes him feel yucky,
he'll probably eat less sugar. He will probably *still* eat sugar---but
only when *he* decides the benefits outweigh the consequences.
I'd probably gently remind him how he felt the last time he ate too
much. But accept that he might not care this time. Each time will make
it easier and easier for him to make his own decisions. It's not
life-threatening, right?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
From: susan throssell <susanthrossell@...
He says he doesnt really like the way he feels, (although i'm not sure
how
much i have influenced this opinion), and has said he wont eat sweets
after
6 as they stop him from feeling tired. Today he wanted sweets after 6,
I
reminded him of his decision and left it at that.......he had the
sweets.
I'm just wondering how I should react when he starts behaving
differently.
SHould I mention the sweets? SHould I keep reminding him of his
decision,
(not sure if he made this to please me). I really dont like sweets and
so
dont want to particularly eat them with him, is that ok?
-=-=-=-=-
It *could* very well be the additives and not the sugar, but either
way:
If he IS noticing that he feels yucky after eating something, that's
good!
Learning what makes us feel bad, good, and better is the first step to
knowing what's best for us as individuals.
I'll insert the pot thang here! <G>
Cameron was smoking marijuana. I guess I could have reacted like all
the mainstream parents I know and forbade it. Could have. Instead we
talked about it. I gave my reasons why not. He did his own research
personally and online. He had some good reasons why it wasn't harmful.
My two main reasons against were that it was illegal (and if caught, it
could mean fines/prosecution/prison time not to mention it could
jeopardize our unschooling) and it could hinder driving abilities. The
compromise was that he wouldn't smoke and drive (I would pick him up if
he called, which I did several times).
The other day he told me it made him feel bad the next day. Really
bad. I've never smoked, so I guess he meant hungover-bad. I don't think
that will stop him from taking a toke every now and then, but I know he
won't be in a Ridgemont High Fog all the time! <G> Essentially, he's
quit. The bad feeling outweighs the initial good feeling. *His* choice.
Keeping our kids from things *we* perceive as dangerous or bad for us
doesn't have the same power as things *they* decide aren't good for
them. They're rational, smart human beings who need to feel their way
about in the world. They *want* to feel happy and healthy and strong.
If a child decides that a diet high in sugar makes him feel yucky,
he'll probably eat less sugar. He will probably *still* eat sugar---but
only when *he* decides the benefits outweigh the consequences.
I'd probably gently remind him how he felt the last time he ate too
much. But accept that he might not care this time. Each time will make
it easier and easier for him to make his own decisions. It's not
life-threatening, right?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith
susan throssell
Hi everyone,
I joined this list preety recently and so i'm not sure if there have always
been posts about the way replies are written and the offence that some
people take.
Once again I want to reiterate that I've found this group immensely helpful
in my learning curve. I bought 'the unschooling handbook' months ago and
when I received it I read it and hated it........i didnt think i'd ever 'get
to that place'.
Today I found the book buried amongst my ds' Simpsons magazines and have
flicked through it---now I 'get it'.
I'm happy right now and wanted to share that, because i've come a long way
with the help of reading posts on this list. We are getting to be soo cool
in our house its great!!
thanks again, again, again
susan
I joined this list preety recently and so i'm not sure if there have always
been posts about the way replies are written and the offence that some
people take.
Once again I want to reiterate that I've found this group immensely helpful
in my learning curve. I bought 'the unschooling handbook' months ago and
when I received it I read it and hated it........i didnt think i'd ever 'get
to that place'.
Today I found the book buried amongst my ds' Simpsons magazines and have
flicked through it---now I 'get it'.
I'm happy right now and wanted to share that, because i've come a long way
with the help of reading posts on this list. We are getting to be soo cool
in our house its great!!
thanks again, again, again
susan
Deb Lewis
***Any pointers, I would love to hear them. I seem to be stuck...***
Do you have friends who could come pick her up and take her swimming, or
horseback riding, or skating, or to the park?
Do you have friends over who are fun and lively?
Do you get invited to dinner with friends or to parties?
Do you have a yard where you could put up a tetherball or basketball hoop?
Do you belong to a church that has a youth group with organized activities
she can participate in?
Can you take her to the pool even if you don't feel like swimming?
Could she play basketball at the Y?
Do you have a car?
Do you live near a bus line?
Would your disability allow you to take in laundry or ironing from your
neighbors for a little extra money for the bus maybe?
Could you take her and a friend out to parks and fun places so that even if
you couldn't play she'd have a companion?
Does she have a bike?
Are you able to walk to near-by interesting places, Chinese food markets,
herb shops, gift stores, junk stores?
Are you close to or can you get to a library?
What kinds of things does your daughter like to do?
What do you do at home for fun? Do you play board games? Does she like
the computer? Does she have favorite kinds of movies and music?
Does she like to cook, sew, sculpt, draw, dance?
Does she like to read?
Do you read together?
Your situation does sound stressful. Have you considered that you might be
depressed?
As difficult as it is, your disabilities don't abdicate you from the
responsibility of giving your daughter an interesting life. Was she opposed
to school, did she hate it? I ask because if you can't provide her with a
way out of the house and activities maybe it would be better for her to go
to school.
Unschooling only works well when we can offer up a more interesting world
than the schools can. While that's not hard to do it does require a lot of
time and energy on the parents part. If her life at home is dull or
stressful and there's no way to go do interesting things, and you don't have
a time frame for when that might change, then I really don't know how this
could be good for her.
But maybe we didn't get a really accurate idea about her life from your
post, so I'm asking those questions because I think you'll get more ideas
here if people know what she likes to do and what you are able to help her
do.
Deb Lewis
Do you have friends who could come pick her up and take her swimming, or
horseback riding, or skating, or to the park?
Do you have friends over who are fun and lively?
Do you get invited to dinner with friends or to parties?
Do you have a yard where you could put up a tetherball or basketball hoop?
Do you belong to a church that has a youth group with organized activities
she can participate in?
Can you take her to the pool even if you don't feel like swimming?
Could she play basketball at the Y?
Do you have a car?
Do you live near a bus line?
Would your disability allow you to take in laundry or ironing from your
neighbors for a little extra money for the bus maybe?
Could you take her and a friend out to parks and fun places so that even if
you couldn't play she'd have a companion?
Does she have a bike?
Are you able to walk to near-by interesting places, Chinese food markets,
herb shops, gift stores, junk stores?
Are you close to or can you get to a library?
What kinds of things does your daughter like to do?
What do you do at home for fun? Do you play board games? Does she like
the computer? Does she have favorite kinds of movies and music?
Does she like to cook, sew, sculpt, draw, dance?
Does she like to read?
Do you read together?
Your situation does sound stressful. Have you considered that you might be
depressed?
As difficult as it is, your disabilities don't abdicate you from the
responsibility of giving your daughter an interesting life. Was she opposed
to school, did she hate it? I ask because if you can't provide her with a
way out of the house and activities maybe it would be better for her to go
to school.
Unschooling only works well when we can offer up a more interesting world
than the schools can. While that's not hard to do it does require a lot of
time and energy on the parents part. If her life at home is dull or
stressful and there's no way to go do interesting things, and you don't have
a time frame for when that might change, then I really don't know how this
could be good for her.
But maybe we didn't get a really accurate idea about her life from your
post, so I'm asking those questions because I think you'll get more ideas
here if people know what she likes to do and what you are able to help her
do.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***We take a few Tripp's a week to Super Wal-mart where we walk, or I ride
on the electric cart
while she walks around and around! But I just feel like it's not helping her
to
lose the weight. ***
Stop focusing on her weight and focus on her health. Help her mental
health, by getting out of the house and being with friends and doing
interesting things, Liven up your home life. Borrow some new or different
music from the library. Show her some of the dances that were popular when
you were her age. Borrow dance videos and try some of the steps, Check out
musicals and sing! See if some friends can lend you some games you haven't
played before. Find some puzzles at the second hand store.
Don't think of physical activity as exercise for her weight, think of it as
nourishment for her emotional state. People need to move in order to feel
really good. You need to find ways for her to be active, not to make her
lose weight but because being sedentary contributes to depression and moving
helps alleviate stress.
Help her physical health by *adding* protein foods and other nutritious
foods and maybe a vitamin supplement to your diet rather than pressing her
to limit foods.
The thing she needs most is for you to be in a good mental state and for
you to be a good example.
Deb Lewis
on the electric cart
while she walks around and around! But I just feel like it's not helping her
to
lose the weight. ***
Stop focusing on her weight and focus on her health. Help her mental
health, by getting out of the house and being with friends and doing
interesting things, Liven up your home life. Borrow some new or different
music from the library. Show her some of the dances that were popular when
you were her age. Borrow dance videos and try some of the steps, Check out
musicals and sing! See if some friends can lend you some games you haven't
played before. Find some puzzles at the second hand store.
Don't think of physical activity as exercise for her weight, think of it as
nourishment for her emotional state. People need to move in order to feel
really good. You need to find ways for her to be active, not to make her
lose weight but because being sedentary contributes to depression and moving
helps alleviate stress.
Help her physical health by *adding* protein foods and other nutritious
foods and maybe a vitamin supplement to your diet rather than pressing her
to limit foods.
The thing she needs most is for you to be in a good mental state and for
you to be a good example.
Deb Lewis
riverkatie
Another question!
I know many of you experienced people started radical unschooling before your children were even born (I mean those ideas were part of your ideological makeup before you had kids)but for those who have come to these ideas later, did you find a logical progression of ideas or did you arrive at radical unschooling all of a heap?
We started looking at unschooling when my son said he didn't have time for school. This was startling to me as I had cheerfully assumed that he somehow needed me to fill his day for him (yes, I'm sorry, I know....)Then we started relaxing a lot. I required maths, but that was all, he and I lived our days together. he makes stop motion movies, and i make bags to sell at the local market, and all goes well.
Then he has asked me to stop the maths, so, with worry, I did. Then he asked me to teach him percentages. "I know how to find 10% of something, but what if I wanted to know, say 8% of 4672?" I asked him why he wanted to know, and he said he just did. So we are doing percentages right now (Key to Percentages).
Now I am wondering if the next step is radical unschooling, have people found this follows logically on from unschooling? Already i can see that my son knows quite well how to live his own life, his own way, yet somehow I find it so hard to let go of my notions that somehow it is 'good' for kids to do chores etc.
Kate
I know many of you experienced people started radical unschooling before your children were even born (I mean those ideas were part of your ideological makeup before you had kids)but for those who have come to these ideas later, did you find a logical progression of ideas or did you arrive at radical unschooling all of a heap?
We started looking at unschooling when my son said he didn't have time for school. This was startling to me as I had cheerfully assumed that he somehow needed me to fill his day for him (yes, I'm sorry, I know....)Then we started relaxing a lot. I required maths, but that was all, he and I lived our days together. he makes stop motion movies, and i make bags to sell at the local market, and all goes well.
Then he has asked me to stop the maths, so, with worry, I did. Then he asked me to teach him percentages. "I know how to find 10% of something, but what if I wanted to know, say 8% of 4672?" I asked him why he wanted to know, and he said he just did. So we are doing percentages right now (Key to Percentages).
Now I am wondering if the next step is radical unschooling, have people found this follows logically on from unschooling? Already i can see that my son knows quite well how to live his own life, his own way, yet somehow I find it so hard to let go of my notions that somehow it is 'good' for kids to do chores etc.
Kate
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "riverkatie" <riverkatie@...> wrote:
I came to unschooling later in Ray's life but early in Mo's. There certainly was a logical progression, but in my case it was a progression of my ideas about adult relationships and learning and slowly coming to see that they could apply to relationships between parents and children.
Some kids find those kinds of puzzles fascinating (some adults, too)! Mo's currently fascinated with multiplication, squares and square roots, and really big numbers. She's also interested in dinosaurs and space right now, so she has lots of chances to play with really big numbers in those contexts - billions of miles and billions of years, what's the next biggest after billions, mom? Er... let me tell you about scientific notation...
Ray, otoh, is more practical in his interest in mathematics. He wants to know how to figure sales tax when he sells his wood and metal work, how to figure fractions of inches for some of his designs, that sort of thing. He wants real world math, the kind that revolves around tools and doing things, not math as a fantastic puzzle. In a way, that's a whole different kind of mathematics because its dependent on the tools themselves. Technical trades, and the maths they employ, tend to revolve around those tools.
Some people definitely do find that!
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
I'd have to say that, for me personally, that both ideas of unschooling "academics" and unschooling "life" grew in ways that swirled together and overlapped. Some parts made sense before other parts - like I could trust my kids to learn but not always myself to be their partner without interfering. In a sense, until I really internalized the idea of living a life based on my own principles I didn't trust myself to be a good model (and therefore I "had to" teach). I think that's were a lot of the idea of "teaching" kids life lessons comes from. You know the saying: do as I say, not as I do. And I bet you know how well that works, too ;)
In what way(s) is it good? Really think about that. Make a list if it helps. Break it down into bits, too. If "responsibility" is on that list, think about what you mean by the word - what is "responsibility" made of? Pulling things apart and getting to the heart of what I meant by my own ideas helped me to see where my thinking was very muddy. I realized I had a whole lot of stuff in my head that was there because I'd heard certain truisms over and over and just assumed they were true! But when I started digging down into what I really thought and meant and knew to be true (in the sense of real causes-and-effects) it was easier to see where those truisms were fallacies - things "everyone knows" because "everyone" says them and Nothing else.
Thinking about my own principles, I've moved away from overarching ideas like responsibility and even respect and freedom. Instead, I think about kindness and generosity, about joyfulness and warmth and bringing more of those into my life. Demanding another person do something (for me, for the group, for the sake of some higher ideal) doesn't add any of those things to my life, or that other person's life. My kids aren't happier for my demands. But when I give generously to my kids, they do nice things for me. The 16yo does nice, houseworky things. The 8yo makes me nice presents. They give kindness and warmth back to me. They smile and my house is full of joy.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/newview
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>for those who have come to these ideas later, did you find a logical progression of ideas or did you arrive at radical unschooling all of a heap?****************
I came to unschooling later in Ray's life but early in Mo's. There certainly was a logical progression, but in my case it was a progression of my ideas about adult relationships and learning and slowly coming to see that they could apply to relationships between parents and children.
> Then he has asked me to stop the maths, so, with worry, I did. Then he asked me to teach him percentages. "I know how to find 10% of something, but what if I wanted to know, say 8% of 4672?" I asked him why he wanted to know, and he said he just did. So we are doing percentages right now (Key to Percentages).*******************
Some kids find those kinds of puzzles fascinating (some adults, too)! Mo's currently fascinated with multiplication, squares and square roots, and really big numbers. She's also interested in dinosaurs and space right now, so she has lots of chances to play with really big numbers in those contexts - billions of miles and billions of years, what's the next biggest after billions, mom? Er... let me tell you about scientific notation...
Ray, otoh, is more practical in his interest in mathematics. He wants to know how to figure sales tax when he sells his wood and metal work, how to figure fractions of inches for some of his designs, that sort of thing. He wants real world math, the kind that revolves around tools and doing things, not math as a fantastic puzzle. In a way, that's a whole different kind of mathematics because its dependent on the tools themselves. Technical trades, and the maths they employ, tend to revolve around those tools.
>>> Now I am wondering if the next step is radical unschooling, have people found this follows logically on from unschooling?******************
Some people definitely do find that!
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
I'd have to say that, for me personally, that both ideas of unschooling "academics" and unschooling "life" grew in ways that swirled together and overlapped. Some parts made sense before other parts - like I could trust my kids to learn but not always myself to be their partner without interfering. In a sense, until I really internalized the idea of living a life based on my own principles I didn't trust myself to be a good model (and therefore I "had to" teach). I think that's were a lot of the idea of "teaching" kids life lessons comes from. You know the saying: do as I say, not as I do. And I bet you know how well that works, too ;)
>>Already i can see that my son knows quite well how to live his own life, his own way, yet somehow I find it so hard to let go of my notions that somehow it is 'good' for kids to do chores etc.*******************
In what way(s) is it good? Really think about that. Make a list if it helps. Break it down into bits, too. If "responsibility" is on that list, think about what you mean by the word - what is "responsibility" made of? Pulling things apart and getting to the heart of what I meant by my own ideas helped me to see where my thinking was very muddy. I realized I had a whole lot of stuff in my head that was there because I'd heard certain truisms over and over and just assumed they were true! But when I started digging down into what I really thought and meant and knew to be true (in the sense of real causes-and-effects) it was easier to see where those truisms were fallacies - things "everyone knows" because "everyone" says them and Nothing else.
Thinking about my own principles, I've moved away from overarching ideas like responsibility and even respect and freedom. Instead, I think about kindness and generosity, about joyfulness and warmth and bringing more of those into my life. Demanding another person do something (for me, for the group, for the sake of some higher ideal) doesn't add any of those things to my life, or that other person's life. My kids aren't happier for my demands. But when I give generously to my kids, they do nice things for me. The 16yo does nice, houseworky things. The 8yo makes me nice presents. They give kindness and warmth back to me. They smile and my house is full of joy.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/newview
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Debra Rossing
Even for us, who started early (from birth), going from the
'educational' unschooling model to expanding it to all of life was a
progression. Things like bedtimes, punishment (time out, removing toys,
etc), hygiene, etc still had a learning curve to them for us. But, since
we trusted that DS would learn and we never limited his food or media
(trusted him to know when he was hungry, when he'd had enough Big, Comfy
Couch, etc) everything else is called into question. We'd chew on ideas,
play 'devil's advocate' scenarios between us, etc. We got most of it
'figured out' by the time that DS was about 5 (so it took us 5 years).
But, there's always something new, some new developmental change, etc.
that pops up - for instance, right now DS is heading into puberty (he's
11) so that's all new territory for us. The framework is there already
(trust, discussion, openness, etc) but how it applies to new
situations/circumstances still takes time and work. It's a relationship
and all relationships require work to keep them healthy and whole.
--Deb R
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'educational' unschooling model to expanding it to all of life was a
progression. Things like bedtimes, punishment (time out, removing toys,
etc), hygiene, etc still had a learning curve to them for us. But, since
we trusted that DS would learn and we never limited his food or media
(trusted him to know when he was hungry, when he'd had enough Big, Comfy
Couch, etc) everything else is called into question. We'd chew on ideas,
play 'devil's advocate' scenarios between us, etc. We got most of it
'figured out' by the time that DS was about 5 (so it took us 5 years).
But, there's always something new, some new developmental change, etc.
that pops up - for instance, right now DS is heading into puberty (he's
11) so that's all new territory for us. The framework is there already
(trust, discussion, openness, etc) but how it applies to new
situations/circumstances still takes time and work. It's a relationship
and all relationships require work to keep them healthy and whole.
--Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]