Re: Hating homeschooling & unparenting

[email protected]

1 Jun 2006, at 12:52pm

-----Original Message-----
From: Tresa <email@...>

> But with adults they always have the option of saying no. Do
> you extend that same courtesy to your child?

No, I don't, and it would be irresonsible of me to do so. Children
are not tiny adults, and should not be treated as such. It does
them a disservice to do so. I would not let my daughter spend 12
hours a day in front of a video game any more than I'd let her eat
an entire box of cookies each night for dinner, or not bathe or
brush her teeth.

-=-=-=-

Ren let this post by *just* as we were all heading out of town to the
NE Unschooling conference in Peabody. I believe Tresa's already left
the list---not unexpectedly IMO after she sent *this* post! <g>

I'll still respond since others of you may be sitting on the same
fence.

Children are NOT tiny adults, you're right. They're more akin to
foreigners in a strange land. BUT they *are* just as deserving of
respect and *should* be treated as *such*!

I "let" my children play video games 12 hours/day. They're welcome to
eat an entire box of cookies for dinner. They must not bathe or brush
their teeth on my schedule.

But one doesn't play video games at all. The other plays when he wants
to---but he'll just as soon jump in the pool, jump on the trampoline,
go for a walk, have me read to him, bake brownies or make spaghetti, as
play video games---unless it's brand new! Then he chooses to play with
it for some time. Neither has ever eaten a box of cookies for dinner.
Not even close! I, on the other hand, had more food regulations and
have been known to eat a box of cookies! <g> Both bathe and brush their
teeth regularly---sometimes with reminders.

-=-=-=-=-

It is my job as a parent to make sure my children are healthy and
happy.

-=-=-=-=-

By that, you mean that I don't make sure my children are healthy and
happy?

-=-=-==-

Although some kids might think an all day video-game, cookie
eating, bath-free world would be fabulous,

-=-=--=-

Ummmm---probably just the kids from whom these things are withheld or
enforced. Children with free choice choose other activities, broccoli,
and baths.

-=-=-=-=-

as a parent we know that
would lead to illness in the short term, obesity in the long term.

-=-=-=-=-

Liar.

And as soon as your kids realize this, everything you say will be
questioned.

-=-=-=-=-

Obviously that's an extreme example, but it makes the point.

-=-=-=-

No, it doesn't. You're showing a lack of trust in your kids and really
just relying on old tapes in your head.

If people are coming to this list, we assume they are looking to make
changes in their lives. Clinging to old thoughts and ideas is no way to
get unschooling.

-=-=-=-

Children need parents for a reason, and sometimes, that reason is to
tell them "no" untill they are mature enough to make healthy,
reasonable, responsible decisions themselves.

-=-=-=-=-

They need parents to love them and trust them and help them make their
way. They don't need a dictator who will them them where and when and
how. They come into this world as capable learners. VERY capable
learners. What they need is someone who will help them make healthy,
reasonable, responsible decisions NOW---not when they are "mature"
enough---NOW! ANd they can and they do.

-=-=-=-

Unschooling doesn't mean un-parenting.

-=-=-=-

If I had a dollar for every damned time I heard that, I'd be on my
little farm in Virginia right now!

Unschooling parents should be THE MOST attentive parents in the world!
We should make every effort to be present WITH our children and know
what they need and try to make that happen. Unschooling parents should
be helping their children to manuever through rough terrain, not
blocking the way or making it rougher. They should be letting them know
what's acceptable and expected on different road types---especially new
ones. We can offer maps and directions when they ask or quietly stuff
one in a pocket---just in case. We should hold their hands when it's
rocky or slippery and stand close by when it's smooth and familiar.
They NEED to feel their way and even get lost every now and then (a
great way to learn a new city, by the way!), but they don't need a
back-seat driver or to be tugged this way and that down the street!

Be the partner they need!

Unparenting---BAH!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

Gail Jones

1 Jun 2006, at 1:30pm

kelly - just remember when letters come like this these are just people's fears and worries coming up all brought on by what we have been indoctrinated all our lives by the public school system etc.... I am a newbie and looking into stuff too and that happens to me lots. :) blessings

Gail

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: Tresa <email@...>

> But with adults they always have the option of saying no. Do
> you extend that same courtesy to your child?

Pamela Sorooshian

1 Jun 2006, at 1:50pm

On Jun 1, 2006, at 9:52 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> I "let" my children play video games 12 hours/day. They're
> welcome to
> eat an entire box of cookies for dinner. They must not bathe or brush
> their teeth on my schedule.

My 18 yo DID play videogames for more than 12 hours per day, for the
past two days (Tuesday and Wednesday) she probably played "The SIMS"
about 16 hours each day. She's on a break - she just finished doing a
very intense musical theater production at the community college, in
which she had her first really big lead part - it was exhausting. She
also was just in her first big dance concert - she took up dancing
late - at 16 years old - and it is hard for her. She has her first-
ever boyfriend - so there is a lot of stress (good stress/happy
stress) associated with that, for her - lots of self-consciousness,
especially.

Oh yeah - and there is the fact that we had a fire in our house,
we're living in a rental without almost any of our own belongings -
the rest of us got clothing out, but she got almost none of her
clothing - none of her music, and on and on. (It isn't burned up, it
is mostly being cleaned and stored - but it has been 3 months and she
really misses her stuff more than the rest of us do.)

Taking two full days to do NOTHING but play "The SIMS" seems like a
really nice kind of down time to me. So - she did that for two days
and then yesterday evening she came to our homeschool park day with
my husband, just to hang around with other people for an hour or two,
and then later last night about 11 pm she suddenly called a
girlfriend and made arrangements to go there and spend the night and
some other kids are going too and she seemed all refreshed and happy
and ready to party! <G>

Other times that my kids have played videogames for hour after hour -
day after day - have not always been so obviously "recovery time."
Sometimes it is because they have a new game and they LOVE it and are
challenged to master it and just don't want to stop until they have
had enough.

I know lots of kids who play videogames at night - most of the night.
These are games in which they interact with other players, online,
and they go on all night, partly because of time zone differences. It
is exciting, fun, there is a LOT of learning going on.

Rosie just completed an online driver education course - worked on it
about 6 hours per day, for about 6 days. A few months ago she was
doing an online math course (ALEKS) the same way - spending 6 to 8
hours per day on it. That's how some people function - it is how "I"
function, too.

I don't see any difference between playing videogames and doing the
math or drivers ed online programs, in terms of "educational value."
Some people would be impressed and think it was wonderful that she
worked so hard on the online "courses" and would be distressed by
spending that same amount of time playing online games. To separate
what is educational from what is not - that seems incredibly arrogant
to me. I know, from years of watching many many kids, that we cannot
see, from the outside, what is happening inside their heads - we
can't know what brain development is taking place, we can't know what
they are really learning, and it is ridiculous for us to think we
know better than they do which activity is more valuable for them.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

1 Jun 2006, at 7:12pm

-----Original Message-----
From: Gail Jones <discovering_joy@...>

kelly - just remember when letters come like this these are just
people's fears
and worries coming up all brought on by what we have been indoctrinated
all our
lives by the public school system etc.... I am a newbie and looking
into stuff
too and that happens to me lots. :) blessings

Gail

-=-=-=-

Yeah, but she posted that and then left.

~Kelly

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

1 Jun 2006, at 8:10pm

thanks pam...

can we all just take a moment to remember those people who have changed the
world because they pursued their passions (like hello, Bill Gates dropped
out of college to pursue his passions and look where he is now! the man who
loves software and gaming is on top of the world doing something he loves
because he pursued his passions regardless of how many people thought he was
crazy)... even if they didn't have the support of others. Now, let's think
about what the world could be like if everyone pursued their passions and
had the loving support of others and most importantly their family.

the more I dive into unschooling and life the harder it is for me to hear
the old tapes coming out of other people's mouths.

why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk at what
they hear and go running away?

Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://stoptherod.net/
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."
-John F. Kennedy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

2 Jun 2006, at 12:16am

-----Original Message-----
From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>

the more I dive into unschooling and life the harder it is for me to
hear
the old tapes coming out of other people's mouths.

why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk at what
they hear and go running away?

=-=-=-=-=-=-

Because they still have those tapes in their heads going a mile a
minute.

It's just too scary to jump into something so foreign. Nothing we say
can convince the voices in their heads to leave or shut up.

I *know* that, <g> but it's still annoying. Nevertheless, their
rantings can spur us into writing and questioning. That can clarify
things enough for others who are still on the fence to jump on off into
unschooling.

Annoying, but usually good in the long run.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

[email protected]

2 Jun 2006, at 2:16am

<<If I had a dollar for every damned time I heard that, I'd be on my
little farm in Virginia right now!>>
My thoughts exactly!
Kelly you covered this so eloquently.
I'll add my rough edges..:) I know she left but someone else may benefit
from this conversation. I was actually going to bring up "unparenting" ..YUCKY

The problem is perception. One parents safe zone can be another's panic
zone.

I see a trend in the unparenting statement. Honestly, hearing it a few times
the last week I'm seeing it as a negative insulting statement(thankfully not
directed at me bc my bs meter has reached it's limit) . Less judging and
more understanding of the real crisis IF ANY. Neglect happens, yes. However..
more often I see parental panic/worry or even micro-managing of small people.
Family values that cross into rules followed by sadness and tears... Nothing
to do with unschooling...

In school kids do for parents,teachers,friends or their future and less for
themselves. In unschooling they answer to themselves and or their parents(not
adults but great practice). Their own self accountability(not guilt) of
what's real and who's affected and is it really a good choic?. It's ok to make a
choice that didn't turn out well. Mistakes (mis-takes as mentioned at the
conference) are ok!

Honesty,trust,kindness,respect of property are useful guides. However..every
situation doesn't mean a no it just means parents need to be there rather
then say no bla bla bla barf..

This is on my AOL page "Just because one disagrees with what another does
doesn't make the persons choice wrong it makes the critical one appear to lack
creativity."

If parents nag,whine complain and show their children that trust is a
parental condition/freedom within the parental ray beam they will challenge that at
every turn.

Unparenting sounds to mean = neglect, yikes... Suggesting a parent is
neglectful doesn't help but rather blows up the communication bridge. I know when
I heard someone say it recently I was jaw dropped at the passing of blame by
the actual parent who was awol, hmm.

Laura
Unschoolingmaine.com

<< Unschooling parents should be THE MOST attentive parents in the world!
We should make every effort to be present WITH our children and know
what they need and try to make that happen. Unschooling parents should
be helping their children to manuever through rough terrain, not
blocking the way or making it rougher. They should be letting them know
what's acceptable and expected on different road types---especially new
ones. We can offer maps and directions when they ask or quietly stuff
one in a pocket---just in case. We should hold their hands when it's
rocky or slippery and stand close by when it's smooth and familiar.
They NEED to feel their way and even get lost every now and then (a
great way to learn a new city, by the way!), but they don't need a
back-seat driver or to be tugged this way and that down the street!

Be the partner they need!

Unparenting---BAH!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy>>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marsaili

2 Jun 2006, at 8:04am

>>>why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk at what

they hear and go running away?

Lesa <<<

Are you truely asking this question??? The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. This is a
totally new way of life, not just unschooling, but a complete change of how
to raise children and it is daunting to someone who was raised a certain way
and needs to change their whole way of thinking. The way some of you talk,
it should be easy and natural and we are terrible parents if we don't fall
into it right away---I know you don't actually think that BUT the way some
of you respond to newbies asking questions, it sure looks as if you believe
it. The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive---but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them---they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying. I think that
people go running away because of the way they are responded to, not because
of their fear of unschooling. If this lifestyle is about nurturing and
being supportive, why does that stop at other adults??? It sounds like so
many of you are wonderful parents but shouldn't that extend into being a
supportive human being---expecially on a list called unschooling basics???
Can't people be helped without being judged or ridiculed? Remember, this
lifestyle doesn't come easy to everyone, some people will never be able to
get it. But if someone comes here asking for help---I think it is in
everyone's best interest to be caring and supportive.

Leslie:-)

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lesa McMahon-Lowe
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 8:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hating homeschooling & unparenting

thanks pam...

can we all just take a moment to remember those people who have changed the
world because they pursued their passions (like hello, Bill Gates dropped
out of college to pursue his passions and look where he is now! the man who
loves software and gaming is on top of the world doing something he loves
because he pursued his passions regardless of how many people thought he was
crazy)... even if they didn't have the support of others. Now, let's think
about what the world could be like if everyone pursued their passions and
had the loving support of others and most importantly their family.

the more I dive into unschooling and life the harder it is for me to hear
the old tapes coming out of other people's mouths.

why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk at what
they hear and go running away?

Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://stoptherod.net/
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."
-John F. Kennedy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Lesa McMahon-Lowe

2 Jun 2006, at 8:54am

I am one of those "newbies" to unschooling and a few times I *felt* attacked
but this was only my perception... not the facts. I guess I wasn't so far
from the unschooling philosophy being a bit on the crunchy side already and
I've always been on the edges of "mainstream" society. I just needed some
shoves in the right direction.

It is not unlike wanting to know how to be healthy, fit, and thin... but
then getting upset when you hear that it's going to take work and learning
new ways of doing things to get that. And knowing that those that really
support you in this won't stand for whining and won't support anything you
re doing that won't get you to your goal.

The fact is is that the newbies come here looking for answers and if you're
looking then you'd better have an open mind to what you're going to hear.
And when you question the seasoned unschoolers who've *been there done that*
then expect to have your views challenged... especially if you're looking
for some support of doing things the *old* way.

This is a "support" group for unschooling, period. You don't have to be
around here long enough to see that the seasoned unschoolers *tell it like
it is* and won't support anything that is the *old* way of thinking.

Call it tough love or whatever... if you are coming here asking for help you
will always get it! But if you are coming here for answers and get them and
then go on about how those answers are wrong (of implying that what we do is
un-parenting!) or won't work then be prepared for a ruckus.

This is all IMO, of course.

Lesa
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net
http://stoptherod.net/
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."
-John F. Kennedy

-------Original Message-------

From: marsaili
Date: 06/02/06 07:07:00
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hating homeschooling & unparenting

>>>why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk at what

[email protected]

2 Jun 2006, at 9:02am

-----Original Message-----

The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a
HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. This is a
totally new way of life, not just unschooling, but a complete change
of how
to raise children and it is daunting to someone who was raised a
certain way
and needs to change their whole way of thinking. The way some of you
talk,
it should be easy and natural and we are terrible parents if we don't
fall
into it right away---I know you don't actually think that BUT the way
some
of you respond to newbies asking questions, it sure looks as if you
believe
it.

-=-=-=-=-

No, I believe that it's hard as hell. Simple, but not easy. Hard as
hell!

ANd I don't think *any* of us were raised that much differently. I'd
say the majority of us (Pam S is probably the exception) were raised
traditionally with much of the same baggage.

Even with all the baggage I started with, I *know* it's possible! ANd
I also know that every minute you waste *fighting* it is another minute
you could have been using to enjoy your children and unschooling.

-=-=-=-

The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive---but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their
children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them---they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah--I struggle with that. And with other contradictions in my life.
"Hurry up!" and "Be patient---what's your hurry?" I say those at the
same time <g> But the fact is: you only have a *very* limited amount of
time with your children. If you keep waiting, that child will be grown
and gone!

I've never met someone who has *gotten* unschooling to whine, "I wish
I had waited longer to get it!" It's ALWAYS, "I wish I'd gotten this
sooner!" That includes *me*!

So, I want you to be patient and understanding of what your *child* is
going through---but if I'm *just* as patient and understanding with
*you* (and I'm really more patient and understanding than you think!
<bwg>), you may remain *stuck* for much, much longer ---and undo all
you're working on with your child!

I KNOW how scary this is. but if I were to keep holding your hand and
say, "It's OK, take your time"....time's *gone* before you know it.

Don't waste another second! Fake it 'til you make it if you have to!

-=-==

I think that people go running away because of the way they are
responded to, not because
of their fear of unschooling.

-=-=-=-

Think again. Not many people leave this list. It's all about fear.
Fearing the unknown, what's different, what's strange. We all have
fears, but wallowing in them---especially with unschooling---will not
take you further on the journey.

Relatively speaking (! <g>) this is the gentlest place to figure this
out. But if you think understanding unschooling is hard, try explaining
it to family, friends, and strangers.

This is NOT a journey for wimps! You really DO have to be strong to
stand up for your kids.

If they run away because they can't handle *my* heat <g>, they
probably couldn't stand up to a Mil's or a neighbor's heat---or even
their own selves!

Not that that's my goal (to chase them away), but this is NOT easy! It
takes a certain personality to handle being on the outside almost *all*
the time (except at conferences! <G>)!

-=-=-=-

If this lifestyle is about nurturing and being supportive, why does
that stop at other adults???

-=-=-=-=-

First: I ain't your mama!

Second: I'm happy to nurture and support, but only if you're working
towards the goal. If you're fighting every step of the way, I'll let
you stop---and even run back to where it's safe. I can't stop you!
*Many* people can't or won't make this trip. They're not strong enough.
They have too much baggage and can't drop any of it by the side of the
road.

I only want to help those who are *interested* in changing. I can't
make you follow me. I *can* make this path seem attractive enough for
you, smoother, and with fewer rocks. I can show you ways to lighten
your load. I can help toss shit aside. I can give you some tips on how
to breathe better or work your legs a bit to build up muscles you never
knew you had. I can give you songs to whistle! <g>

I can tell you that I've been on this road before and I can ease your
fears about what's around the next corner. BUT! You have to *want* to
go there! You have to *want* to make the change. I'm not going to pull
you along or even carry you. YOU have to take the steps.

I guess I could stop and sit down with you and hold your hand and
commiserate with how hard the journey is, but that won't get you *any*
further along. It slows you down. And if I commiserate long
enough---you may simply decide that the journey's been long enough and
put a leaky tent up right where you are. There's a beautiful, sparkling
unschooling city *just* around the corner. But I can't make you go
there. It's up to *YOU*.

-=-=-=-=-

It sounds like so many of you are wonderful parents but shouldn't that
extend into being a
supportive human being---expecially on a list called unschooling
basics???

-=-=-=-

Really, Leslie, if you're not getting the help you're looking for
here, you don't have to stay. If you feel you can do a better job, you
can form your own list. It's a lot easier to sit on the sidewalks and
watch others get pushed beyond what they ever felt possible while
criticizing the coaches than it is to show up every day and help people
on the journey---but hey---whatever floats your boat.

-=-=-=-=-

Can't people be helped without being judged or ridiculed?

-=-=-=

Sure. On your list. Especially if what you're seeing here is judgment
and ridicule.

-=-=-=-=-

Remember, this lifestyle doesn't come easy to everyone, some people
will never be able to
get it. But if someone comes here asking for help---I think it is in
everyone's best interest to be caring and supportive.

-=-=-=-=-

The people who won't ever get it will leave. That's what they do.

If someone comes here looking for help, she'll hang around, try some
of the suggestions, work harder, see the lights below, and struggle to
make it.

I can worry about those who won't ever get it OR I can focus on the
ones that are working *hard* every day to reach the goal.

I'm not a worrier. <g>

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

[email protected]

2 Jun 2006, at 9:08am

-----Original Message-----
From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>

This is a "support" group for unschooling, period. You don't have to be
around here long enough to see that the seasoned unschoolers *tell it
like
it is* and won't support anything that is the *old* way of thinking.

-=-=-=-

Correction: This is NOT actually a support group. If you feel
supported, GREAT! But that's not really the goal.

The goal is to discuss unschooling and to help beginners take the very
difficult steps to get there.

To paraphrase Joyce: The goal is to understand unschooling. Support is
a side effect! <g>

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

Michelle/Melbrigða

2 Jun 2006, at 9:28am

On 6/2/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

>
>
> Relatively speaking (! <g>) this is the gentlest place to figure this
> out. But if you think understanding unschooling is hard, try explaining
> it to family, friends, and strangers.

Yeah, I've seen some other boards and lists that have "ripped a new one" to
newbies posting and questioning unschooling philosophy.

I think that most people wonder into unschooling through homeschooling
thinking that this is just another curriculum choice. What they may truly
be looking for is "Interest Led Learning" or "Child Directed Learning" not
realizing that *Unschooling* is more than a curriculum choice. They still
want to make sure that their kids have all their 3R's covered as well as
some science, geography and politcal science thrown in. So while we that
have become comfortable with *unschooling* can see that *everything* is a
learning experience (even if we don't categorize it as such), others want
learning to be everything. IOW they want to make sure that their child is
learning something "educational." So I think that this list does get a lot
of traffic from people who are looking for something different. And that is
fine. Just don't mess up the list by condemning all unschoolers as
"unparents."

Having been in "the system" for several years before coming to homeschooling
and eventually unschooling, I can tell you that there is a whole lot more
"unparenting" going on in traditional mainstream homes these days than in
unschooling homes. Parents who are allowing "the system" to raise their
children and aren't taking responsibility for poor behaviour, teen
pregnancy, drug and alcohol abuse and bullying. Their children truly are
becoming "zombie faced" in front of the tv's because there is no life beyond
school and "the box."

--
Michelle
aka Melbrigða
http://eventualknitting.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marsaili

2 Jun 2006, at 9:30am

Thank you Kelly, for your responses! I have gotten some really great advice
and help here which I have used, I just hate to see when a mother comes
here, panicked and scared and she's accused of being neglectful to her
kids---which did happen in a recent thread. That is what gets me---but I do
see your point about being patient and understanding with adults---yes, many
of them would stay stuck if they were treated with kid gloves---with this
lifestyle its either do it or don't do it---waffling certainly doesn't help
anyone.

This is a great list, I have learned a lot from all of you and hope to
continue learning more---I just feel bad for parents sometimes, who come
here scared and leave just as scared because they are questioned--sometimes
quite harshly. But I see your point. And no, I do not want or need to
start my own list, I am new to all this, I couldn't offer much of anything
since I am still working on myself in this life change.

Leslie:-)

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of kbcdlovejo@...
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 9:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hating homeschooling & unparenting

-----Original Message-----

The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a
HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. This is a
totally new way of life, not just unschooling, but a complete change
of how
to raise children and it is daunting to someone who was raised a
certain way
and needs to change their whole way of thinking. The way some of you
talk,
it should be easy and natural and we are terrible parents if we don't
fall
into it right away---I know you don't actually think that BUT the way
some
of you respond to newbies asking questions, it sure looks as if you
believe
it.

-=-=-=-=-

No, I believe that it's hard as hell. Simple, but not easy. Hard as
hell!

ANd I don't think *any* of us were raised that much differently. I'd
say the majority of us (Pam S is probably the exception) were raised
traditionally with much of the same baggage.

Even with all the baggage I started with, I *know* it's possible! ANd
I also know that every minute you waste *fighting* it is another minute
you could have been using to enjoy your children and unschooling.

-=-=-=-

The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive---but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their
children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them---they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying.

-=-=-=-=-

Yeah--I struggle with that. And with other contradictions in my life.
"Hurry up!" and "Be patient---what's your hurry?" I say those at the
same time <g> But the fact is: you only have a *very* limited amount of
time with your children. If you keep waiting, that child will be grown
and gone!

I've never met someone who has *gotten* unschooling to whine, "I wish
I had waited longer to get it!" It's ALWAYS, "I wish I'd gotten this
sooner!" That includes *me*!

So, I want you to be patient and understanding of what your *child* is
going through---but if I'm *just* as patient and understanding with
*you* (and I'm really more patient and understanding than you think!
<bwg>), you may remain *stuck* for much, much longer ---and undo all
you're working on with your child!

I KNOW how scary this is. but if I were to keep holding your hand and
say, "It's OK, take your time"....time's *gone* before you know it.

Don't waste another second! Fake it 'til you make it if you have to!

-=-==

I think that people go running away because of the way they are
responded to, not because
of their fear of unschooling.

-=-=-=-

Think again. Not many people leave this list. It's all about fear.
Fearing the unknown, what's different, what's strange. We all have
fears, but wallowing in them---especially with unschooling---will not
take you further on the journey.

Relatively speaking (! <g>) this is the gentlest place to figure this
out. But if you think understanding unschooling is hard, try explaining
it to family, friends, and strangers.

This is NOT a journey for wimps! You really DO have to be strong to
stand up for your kids.

If they run away because they can't handle *my* heat <g>, they
probably couldn't stand up to a Mil's or a neighbor's heat---or even
their own selves!

Not that that's my goal (to chase them away), but this is NOT easy! It
takes a certain personality to handle being on the outside almost *all*
the time (except at conferences! <G>)!

-=-=-=-

If this lifestyle is about nurturing and being supportive, why does
that stop at other adults???

-=-=-=-=-

First: I ain't your mama!

Second: I'm happy to nurture and support, but only if you're working
towards the goal. If you're fighting every step of the way, I'll let
you stop---and even run back to where it's safe. I can't stop you!
*Many* people can't or won't make this trip. They're not strong enough.
They have too much baggage and can't drop any of it by the side of the
road.

I only want to help those who are *interested* in changing. I can't
make you follow me. I *can* make this path seem attractive enough for
you, smoother, and with fewer rocks. I can show you ways to lighten
your load. I can help toss shit aside. I can give you some tips on how
to breathe better or work your legs a bit to build up muscles you never
knew you had. I can give you songs to whistle! <g>

I can tell you that I've been on this road before and I can ease your
fears about what's around the next corner. BUT! You have to *want* to
go there! You have to *want* to make the change. I'm not going to pull
you along or even carry you. YOU have to take the steps.

I guess I could stop and sit down with you and hold your hand and
commiserate with how hard the journey is, but that won't get you *any*
further along. It slows you down. And if I commiserate long
enough---you may simply decide that the journey's been long enough and
put a leaky tent up right where you are. There's a beautiful, sparkling
unschooling city *just* around the corner. But I can't make you go
there. It's up to *YOU*.

-=-=-=-=-

It sounds like so many of you are wonderful parents but shouldn't that
extend into being a
supportive human being---expecially on a list called unschooling
basics???

-=-=-=-

Really, Leslie, if you're not getting the help you're looking for
here, you don't have to stay. If you feel you can do a better job, you
can form your own list. It's a lot easier to sit on the sidewalks and
watch others get pushed beyond what they ever felt possible while
criticizing the coaches than it is to show up every day and help people
on the journey---but hey---whatever floats your boat.

-=-=-=-=-

Can't people be helped without being judged or ridiculed?

-=-=-=

Sure. On your list. Especially if what you're seeing here is judgment
and ridicule.

-=-=-=-=-

Remember, this lifestyle doesn't come easy to everyone, some people
will never be able to
get it. But if someone comes here asking for help---I think it is in
everyone's best interest to be caring and supportive.

-=-=-=-=-

The people who won't ever get it will leave. That's what they do.

If someone comes here looking for help, she'll hang around, try some
of the suggestions, work harder, see the lights below, and struggle to
make it.

I can worry about those who won't ever get it OR I can focus on the
ones that are working *hard* every day to reach the goal.

I'm not a worrier. <g>

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

SPONSORED LINKS
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Michelle/Melbrigða

2 Jun 2006, at 9:46am

On 6/2/06, kbcdlovejo@... <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

>
>
> Relatively speaking (! <g>) this is the gentlest place to figure this
> out. But if you think understanding unschooling is hard, try explaining
> it to family, friends, and strangers.

Elissa Jill Cleaveland

2 Jun 2006, at 9:55am

I just hate to see when a mother comes
here, panicked and scared and she's accused of being neglectful to her
kids---which did happen in a recent thread.
*****No, I don't think it did. I may be wrong, can you quote that?
What I understood to be said was, 4 years of TV and video games, with no other valid choices (valid to those doing the choosing - in this case, that would be the kids) and nothing better offered is neglect.
No one here said, You are a neglectful mother.
Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

2 Jun 2006, at 9:56am

> I believe Tresa's already left the list---not unexpectedly IMO
> after she sent *this* post! <g>

That's very interesting to know. She's obviously not ready to be an
unschooler. I used to have the same concerns, as did many of us
probably, and it's only just recently been truly sinking in to the
very core of my being. I now fight with my children for time on
Nintendo. *grin*

disclaimer: obviously we don't really fight. But my son and I are
the most avid gamers in the family and he truly enjoys watching and
helping me play. We were up to 1:15am playing Paper Mario. They
weren't ready to go to bed but my eyes were starting to close and I
couldn't keep Mario functioning! *lol* At least I outlasted my
dd14. She fell asleep on the floor next to me. :)

Beth M.

Deb Lewis

2 Jun 2006, at 9:56am

***The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. ***

We're all living on the same planet with access to a lot of information.
I think the people new to unschooling today have the advantage. I
didn't have Internet access until Dylan was seven or eight years old.
There was one unschooling magazine, "Growing Without Schooling," and one
unschooling article by Sandra Dodd, in an otherwise homeschooly
publication. Anyone even remotely interested in unschooling today will
get 456,000 Google hits from one search. There's Life Learning Magazine
and Live Free Learn Free. There's the e-zine Connections. There's the
.info unschooling message board and web site. There are web sites and
blogs up the wazoo.

***The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive---but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their
children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them---they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying. ***

The responsibility to do the initial research, to discover if unschooling
seems like something they can do, lies with the newbie. It's not our
job to convince them. It's not our responsibility to make sure they get
all the information. We can help people understand how the principles
apply to real life situations.

***If this lifestyle is about nurturing and
being supportive, why does that stop at other adults??? ***

It doesn't and many, many people get the support and help they need at
these types of lists. But some people want more than that. They want
us to do the work for them and that isn't possible.

Anyone who takes even one hour out of their day to respond on these lists
is spending that hour with an adult who could feasibly get that
information reading at anyone of the various web sites or in the archives
of these great lists. That's an hour away from our own kids. We're
mostly glad to do it because we *do* remember how alone we felt in the
beginning, how hard it was for us to find information. But it's
different now. There's a lot of information available for free. We
don't need to be as nurturing with an adult who's had years of experience
navigating in this world and who has Internet access as we need to be
with our kids. I'm not afraid to say it right up front. I don't feel
the need to nurture anyone on these lists in the same way I feel the need
to nurture my kid. List members have other resources available to them
but my kid has only one mom.

***I think it is in everyone's best interest to be caring and
supportive.***

And I think the people who volunteer on this list are the most caring and
supportive people around. This list wouldn't even exists if Kelly and
Ren didn't care. It's because they care they give away their time.

And while I will always be supportive of unschooling I don't have any
responsibility to be supportive of mom's who are too afraid or too whiny
to do the internal work they need to do to really understand the
principles of unschooling. I'm not interested in being supportive of
people who don't want to (or who make excuses about why they can't)
unschool. I'm not going to hunt them down and obliterate them,<g> but
I'm not going to spend my time (because I have no time advantage<g>)
digging around inside them looking for the "on" switch. I think they
should have flipped it before they came here. <g>

This is meta-discussion. My answer as moderator to a violation of list
policy is to put anyone who continues this on moderation and stop those
posts at the queue. My answer to you in particular is this: Post
the way you think is best. Offer the support and nurturing you think
each particular newbie needs. Be the positive force you want to see
here. If that still isn't good enough, start your own list of nurturing
support and feel free to advertise the link here. Then, when you see
someone here in need of your kind of list you can direct them there.
That would be one more resource for newbies that those advantaged
old-timers didn't have. <g>

Deb Lewis

marsaili

2 Jun 2006, at 10:15am

You are absolutely right, Deb, with everything you had to say. Thank you
for taking the time to explain and comment. I am grateful to see how others
feel about this subject---and maybe I shouldn't be such a "softie" and worry
about how other newbies are handling things and just work on my own issues.

Thank you Deb, and everyone who has commented.

Leslie:-)

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Deb Lewis
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 9:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Hating homeschooling & unparenting

***The people who have been doing this
for a long time, or have always done this with their children have a HUGE
advantage over the newbies who come here looking for support. ***

We're all living on the same planet with access to a lot of information.
I think the people new to unschooling today have the advantage. I
didn't have Internet access until Dylan was seven or eight years old.
There was one unschooling magazine, "Growing Without Schooling," and one
unschooling article by Sandra Dodd, in an otherwise homeschooly
publication. Anyone even remotely interested in unschooling today will
get 456,000 Google hits from one search. There's Life Learning Magazine
and Live Free Learn Free. There's the e-zine Connections. There's the
.info unschooling message board and web site. There are web sites and
blogs up the wazoo.

***The one thing that gets me, many of you old timers tell us newbies to
be patient, to be loving and understanding and supportive---but when a
newbie parent comes here freaking out because this is new and their
children
are doing the usual stuck on TV or video games and its new and scary to
them---they get chatised and judged for reacting and worrying. ***

The responsibility to do the initial research, to discover if unschooling
seems like something they can do, lies with the newbie. It's not our
job to convince them. It's not our responsibility to make sure they get
all the information. We can help people understand how the principles
apply to real life situations.

***If this lifestyle is about nurturing and
being supportive, why does that stop at other adults??? ***

It doesn't and many, many people get the support and help they need at
these types of lists. But some people want more than that. They want
us to do the work for them and that isn't possible.

Anyone who takes even one hour out of their day to respond on these lists
is spending that hour with an adult who could feasibly get that
information reading at anyone of the various web sites or in the archives
of these great lists. That's an hour away from our own kids. We're
mostly glad to do it because we *do* remember how alone we felt in the
beginning, how hard it was for us to find information. But it's
different now. There's a lot of information available for free. We
don't need to be as nurturing with an adult who's had years of experience
navigating in this world and who has Internet access as we need to be
with our kids. I'm not afraid to say it right up front. I don't feel
the need to nurture anyone on these lists in the same way I feel the need
to nurture my kid. List members have other resources available to them
but my kid has only one mom.

***I think it is in everyone's best interest to be caring and
supportive.***

And I think the people who volunteer on this list are the most caring and
supportive people around. This list wouldn't even exists if Kelly and
Ren didn't care. It's because they care they give away their time.

And while I will always be supportive of unschooling I don't have any
responsibility to be supportive of mom's who are too afraid or too whiny
to do the internal work they need to do to really understand the
principles of unschooling. I'm not interested in being supportive of
people who don't want to (or who make excuses about why they can't)
unschool. I'm not going to hunt them down and obliterate them,<g> but
I'm not going to spend my time (because I have no time advantage<g>)
digging around inside them looking for the "on" switch. I think they
should have flipped it before they came here. <g>

This is meta-discussion. My answer as moderator to a violation of list
policy is to put anyone who continues this on moderation and stop those
posts at the queue. My answer to you in particular is this: Post
the way you think is best. Offer the support and nurturing you think
each particular newbie needs. Be the positive force you want to see
here. If that still isn't good enough, start your own list of nurturing
support and feel free to advertise the link here. Then, when you see
someone here in need of your kind of list you can direct them there.
That would be one more resource for newbies that those advantaged
old-timers didn't have. <g>

Deb Lewis

SPONSORED LINKS
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freepsgal

2 Jun 2006, at 11:28am

> why do people come here to learn about unschooling and then balk
> at what they hear and go running away?
> Lesa

Perhaps they are not ready. Perhaps they misunderstand unschooling.
Some people think it means just shucking formal curriculum but still
covering core subjects in a relaxed manner. Some people think it
means letting the child schedule themselves with textbooks without the
parent hovering over them.

I think unschooling is very misunderstood. I know the very first time
I heard about it, I absolutely loved the idea of making things easier
on myself by throwing out our schedules but after a few months of my
children doing nothing but playing, I assumed we weren't the
unschooling types. I truly expected that after a while the kids would
ask to do schoolwork. I just didn't really understand unschooling. I
had joined some groups like this one, maybe even this one as well, and
as I learned more, I had no confidence in either my children nor
myself to just let go of the way I thought things should be.

Boy, I wish I knew what I know now. But I guess this is something
that is just so radical that it can take a while to really sink in.
I've been sinking myself into unschooling for 4 months and as summer
is hitting, I'm seeing people gearing up for the Fall. I've had some
twinges of doubt, and longing for curriculum (I'm a former curriculum
junkie) but every time I start looking at stuff for sale, it just all
looks so stupid and so wrong. I'm thinking that maybe I'm finally
getting it and living it. It feels so good and I don't want to lose
this feeling. :)

Beth M.

Pamela Sorooshian

2 Jun 2006, at 1:02pm

On Jun 2, 2006, at 5:54 AM, Lesa McMahon-Lowe wrote:

> It is not unlike wanting to know how to be healthy, fit, and thin...

...and going to a gym and finding someone there who volunteers to
help people lose weight and get fit and the person says, 'You can get
rid of that fat, I did it myself and here's how: eat less and work
out more," AND then the person gets insulted because the volunteer
called them fat and gave them useful advice and didn't say, "Don't
worry, you look great just as you are."

-pam

> but
> then getting upset when you hear that it's going to take work and
> learning
> new ways of doing things to get that.

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

2 Jun 2006, at 1:06pm

On Jun 2, 2006, at 6:02 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Second: I'm happy to nurture and support, but only if you're working
> towards the goal. If you're fighting every step of the way, I'll let
> you stop---and even run back to where it's safe. I can't stop you!
> *Many* people can't or won't make this trip. They're not strong
> enough.
> They have too much baggage and can't drop any of it by the side of the
> road.

OR - they think we're on the wrong track, maybe think we're all a
bunch of nutcases, and, maybe they're right.

(Doesn't matter - if they are right, at least we're fiercely
independent and happy and, most important to me, deeply engaged in
life, not coasting through it.)

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

2 Jun 2006, at 1:27pm

On Jun 2, 2006, at 6:30 AM, marsaili wrote:

> This is a great list, I have learned a lot from all of you and hope to
> continue learning more---I just feel bad for parents sometimes, who
> come
> here scared and leave just as scared because they are questioned--
> sometimes
> quite harshly.

Hey Leslie - I'm sorry about that, too, but, having done this for
over a decade, now, I've discovered that lots of those people go
away, but they don't stop thinking. Many of them write back,
sometimes years later, to say that what seemed like harsh treatment,
at the time, stirred something up in them that they couldn't ignore
and they describe how they finally "got it" and how much they
appreciate those who provided them with the impetus to make very
difficult changes in their lives.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

2 Jun 2006, at 1:34pm

On Jun 2, 2006, at 8:28 AM, freepsgal wrote:

> I think unschooling is very misunderstood. I know the very first time
> I heard about it, I absolutely loved the idea of making things easier
> on myself by throwing out our schedules but after a few months of my
> children doing nothing but playing, I assumed we weren't the
> unschooling types. I truly expected that after a while the kids would
> ask to do schoolwork.

About 12 years ago, I asked a group of unschoolers, "Do you mean that
your kids just go to the bookshelf and take down their math book and
do their lessons without you having to tell them to do it?"

Yep - that was my very first attempt at understanding what
unschoolers were talking about! <BEG>

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

freepsgal

2 Jun 2006, at 1:40pm

> About 12 years ago, I asked a group of unschoolers, "Do you mean
> that your kids just go to the bookshelf and take down their math
> book and do their lessons without you having to tell them to do
> it?"
>
> Yep - that was my very first attempt at understanding what
> unschoolers were talking about! <BEG>
> -pam

Yay! There's hope for me yet then! Woo! :)

Beth M.

jlh44music

2 Jun 2006, at 4:21pm

<freepsgal@...> wrote:

> I think unschooling is very misunderstood. I know the very first

time I heard about it, I absolutely loved the idea of making things
easier on myself by throwing out our schedules but after a few
months of my children doing nothing but playing, I assumed we
weren't the unschooling types. I truly expected that after a while
the kids would ask to do schoolwork. I just didn't really
understand unschooling. I had joined some groups like this one,
maybe even this one as well, and as I learned more, I had no
confidence in either my children nor myself to just let go of the
way I thought things should be.>>

I'm still reading all the posts, but wanted to respond here. SO
many of you have expressed things in a way I agree with. Being a
newbie, I wanted to add that when I first saw the word unschooling,
I thought "NO WAY!". (for the record, I initially thought that way
about homeschooling, "no way could I be at home teaching my daughter
all day!"). BUT, that was because I knew VERY LITTLE about
homeschooling and other options. SO, being the reader and digger
that I am, I started my internet searches, reading every book I
could get my hands on (amazon.com loves me! I borrowed some from
the library, but I love to own them so I can make notes in the
margins if so moved, underline passages etc). I kept coming across
unschooling, pushed it aside, came across it again and again. Even
though I initially thought no way, there was something that stuck
with me, especially after reading Dumbing us Down (John Holt and
John Taylor Gatto especially made the lightbulb go off).

It took about 2 years of reading, absorbing, mind altering, before I
found this group (I actually started on one of those "more critical"
groups someone alluded to here and was "criticized" on my first
post. I was pissed, but I now realize I needed to become more
familiar with unschooling, and to work on changing my perceptions
about unschooling, I really had NO CLUE, especially radical
unschooling. Yes, it's very misunderstood unless you do the work
to really get it.

Change is hard. I feel that those who have posted and attacked
here don't know much about unschooling, and as Kelly and others have
stated, want the group to lead them through it. You have to do the
work yourself. You have to be ready to make the shift in how you
live your lives, and get past your past and how YOU were brought
up. I agree that there are some people who won't ever be able to
do that, you have to WANT to change and live your life more freely.

I'll admit that sometimes in the past I have felt envious of those
here who have "always unschooled", but I've found the more I read,
the more natural it feels. In order to hear the advice so freely
given here (and I'll add my thank you for being here to the others!)
I have to continue to work on it on my end.

Many things have been swirling around in my head recently that I've
been wanting to express but have felt SO foggy! So many of you
have written things that have helped me through this blah period
(and this after just attending my first conference! Go figure -
I'll blame it on PMS). I don't always have eloquent things to say,
but I DO get SO MUCH from what others write. This is one newbie who
is very grateful this group is here.
Jann

Ren Allen

2 Jun 2006, at 4:57pm

"2) Thanks to Ren :) dd's favorite phrase all this week has been
"Yeah, Mom,why not?" We haven't found a reason "Why not" for
anything yet!"

I LOVE it!!!

"3)DH completely agrees with unschooling. He had so many "wow"
moments. His main concern right now is his son, as he's at a critical
time in his life. DH was so impressed and genuinely touched by the
advice and real concern he received from the other guys, especially.
He said after we left "I miss them already"

I SO enjoyed hanging out with you both and chatting in the lobby.
You're both amazing people and your dh is so open to learning about
all of it. I could just see that sweet look in his eyes all weekend,
like there was nourishment all around. *I* was certainly nourished by
all the joy in that place!

"4) Stepson realized that he now has a choice, providing he's allowed
to go to school after his hearing, which in itself is enormous
empowerment. He also realized that school shouldn't define him and
all that goes with that knowledge. He attended some of the talks with
his dad and liked Ben's "Dad" talk especially. "

This is really great to hear! At least if he chooses school, he will
be SO empowered compared to most kids there. What a gift you've given
him.

"5) I learned that solar flares are one of the causes of the northern
lights, which are like nothing I've ever seen (but will someday) in
Alaska. This only stuck with me because my stepson was doing a report
on solar flares as part of the school work he was missing while
suspended. True to Ren's "Chocolate" talk. Connections."

Gotta LOVE those connections. They never cease to amaze me.:)
I recieved an article from Christine at the conference, a piece about
chocolate that she ran across the day I did my talk. Later, Ben, Kelly
and I were shopping at Trader Joes and Kelly found some Chocolate
flavored tea, which I HAD to bring home of course.
Then yesterday, I found out that some training I'll be doing with MAC
in a couple of weeks, will take place in Asheville. The location for
training is right next to "Chocolate Fetish" a place another coworker
told me about before the conference. I'm going to try the Wasabe
chocolate for sure!! Too cool.

"6)We all made connections with interesting, positive, passionate
people and are really hoping to go to NM."

You just summed up the amazing effects of the conferences on each of
our lives. I have made life-long friendships (some of them based on
Godiva Liqueur....yeah, I can be rather shallow), learned tons of new
things and grown in so many ways.
Can't wait to see you all again!!!

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

2 Jun 2006, at 5:19pm

-----Original Message-----
From: Elissa Jill Cleaveland <MystikMomma@...>

No one here said, You are a neglectful mother.

-=-=--

If I didn't, I will now! She appears to be a neglectful mother.

If you truly believe that only watching tv and playing videos for four
years is OK until one day you finally believe it's enough---something
ain't right. Of course, that's assuming that was *all* the children did
for four years.

ANd one was pale, weak, and ---what was the other word? and the other
was obese---something ain't right. Was she offering nothing but
nutritionless food to one and only high calorie food to the other?
Genetics and illness aside, what's up with this picture?

I'm guessing it wasn't all it appeared to be. I'm guessing that she was
only giving us part of her story. But we can only go by what is offered.

If she's just ging to throw out such info and say that she tried it and
it doesn't work---and then *leave*---we can use her story as an example
of what unschooling is NOT. From what she told us, she was neglectful,
not mindful, and not unschooling.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

"The hardest problem for the brain is not learning, but forgetting. No
matter how hard we try, we can't deliberately forget something we have
learned, and that is catastrophic if we learn that we can't learn."
~Frank Smith

Tina

2 Jun 2006, at 6:32pm

<Having been in "the system" for several years before coming to
homeschooling and eventually unschooling, I can tell you that there is
a whole lot more "unparenting" going on in traditional mainstream
homes these days than in unschooling homes. Parents who are
allowing "the system" to raise their children and aren't taking
responsibility for poor behaviour, teen pregnancy, drug and alcohol
abuse and bullying. Their children truly are becoming "zombie faced"
in front of the tv's because there is no life beyond school and "the
box.">

This is a VERY valid point. I've always felt that way, but I have
never been able to put it into words so well. I agree 100%! That, my
friends, is what makes me sad. My heart actually aches for these
children. I always said it was like feeding them to the sharks.

Tina

John & Karen Buxcel

3 Jun 2006, at 11:33am

Leslie,
I'm a relative newcomer to this list, though not to unschooling, as we have
3 children, ages 7 and under, who've been attachment parented and loved and
trusted and respected since birth.
When I read the 'old timers' responses to newcomers fears, I don't hear what
you are hearing at all. I think we all perceive things, and receive things
according to our own existing paradigms. What I do notice about myself, is
that when I hear or experience something that really 'gets to me', then I
know I have some serious examining to do with that issue, that THAT is MY
stuff and not the responsiblity of someone else to say it the way *I* think
I need to hear it.
I'm grateful for all of the voices on this list! I personally want to be
challenged and driven to be a better person and parent, I really don't want
to be supported into staying where I am.
Karen

lynne4t

3 Jun 2006, at 2:12pm

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:

>

> I could just see that sweet look in his eyes all weekend,
> like there was nourishment all around. *I* was certainly nourished

by all the joy in that place!

Wow, what a perceptive person you are that you could see that in him.
Nourishment. That's exactly how I would describe it, now that you've
said it. Dh was gobbling it up like it was a buffet! He just posted
some really nice words on SSUDs, if you have access.

> Gotta LOVE those connections. They never cease to amaze me.:)

Would you believe that my one of stepson's other assignments this week
was to read "The Chocolate Wars"? Really, I kid you not! Crazy, huh?

> I'm going to try the Wasabe chocolate for sure!! Too cool.

Ever since I saw an episode of Unwrapped on the Food Network featuring
this place: http://www.vosgeschocolate.com/ I've wanted to try some
of these exotic kinds of chocolate. Hmmm...maybe I'll order some now.
Has anyone ever tried Wasabi Chocolate?

Lynne