jlh44music

My dd (13) had been out of school for the first time since last
June. She's still deschooling. Up until this past week, she has
always wanted to end the day with our bedtime routine of saying
goodnight, she didn't like staying up on her own. Even though I
don't usually have to get up early (this is MY first time not
working full time!) I have been finding that I just can't stay up
until 2, 3 or even 4AM, I can't make up for the sleep I need at the
other end by sleeping later like she does. We talked about it and
I have been going to bed with her staying up on her own. She's
been heavily into playing World of Warcraft online, and has
connected with quite a few of the other players, who are often on
late at night (many live is different time zones, so it's earlier in
the day for them). She's struggled in the past making friends IRL,
and I know that these online connections are very important to her.

I'm supportive of her choices, however my dh is having a hard time
with this. He's been agreeable about homeschooling, but really
doesn't understand unschooling. Plus, he sleeps in the room right
next to hers (his snoring has intensified over the past year, and he
keeps me awake when we sleep in the same room!) so since he gets up
early to go to work, has agreed to sleep in a different room. He
hears her computer (and sometimes she has the TV on, which is
against the wall of the room he's in – she and I talked about how
she needs to be respectful and keep it down, but I don't think she
realizes how loud it can sometimes be, and doesn't self regulate the
level) and it wakes him up. I suggested he get up and ask her to
turn it down, but that hasn't happened, he usually complains to me
the next day, saying it isn't "normal" for her to be up so late
etc. (some of this, I think, is that he is resentful of having to
get up early, NONE of us are morning people, and he'd really rather
not have to! But he does it).

I suggested that we all sit down tonight to discuss this. The
problem is that he tends to be negative, coming out with statements
like "you need to go to bed!" etc in a tone of voice that is
demanding. I've tried talking to him about how allowing her to make
her own choices isn't hurting anyone, and how it's an important part
of unschooling, but he doesn't see it that way.

BTW, we're going to the conference this weekend (well, he's at least
agreed to go to Ben's dad's group) but I'm not sure how much he'll
actually stick around for (we only live 15 mins from the hotel and I
couldn't convince him to stay there, he isn't willing to give up
his "weekend" off – sigh……). I'm really looking forward to meeting
so many that I've come to know here and on other groups, and to be
with like minded folks!

I sure could use some suggestions and/or words of wisdom. He's not
a reader, so forget book suggestions, although I have sent him links
to articles from time to time (do any come to mind from those of you
who have been doing this a lot longer than we have?!).
Thanks,
Jann

marji

>At 11:31 5/24/2006, you wrote:
>Plus, he sleeps in the room right
>next to hers (his snoring has intensified over the past year, and he
>keeps me awake when we sleep in the same room!) so since he gets up
>early to go to work, has agreed to sleep in a different room. He
>hears her computer (and sometimes she has the TV on, which is
>against the wall of the room he's in ­ she and I talked about how
>she needs to be respectful and keep it down, but I don't think she
>realizes how loud it can sometimes be, and doesn't self regulate the
>level) and it wakes him up.


I think the first thing that needs to happen is
that your daughter needs to understand how
important it is that her pursuit of happiness
doesn't infringe on anyone else's. Perhaps the
conversation you all have tonight could be
brainstorming ways that your daughter can do her
thing (play on her 'puter and watch the tube) and
your husband can do his (have uninterrupted
sleep). Both are valid and good and neither
should have to give up one for the other. Maybe
she can use headphones for the computer and the
TV after your husband goes to bed. Maybe the
computer can be located in a different part of
the room so it's not adjacent to your husband's
sleeping space. At any rate, she needs to
understand fully that she shouldn't be disturbing
anyone's sleep. It's just not the right thing to do!

>I suggested he get up and ask her to
>turn it down, but that hasn't happened, he usually complains to me
>the next day, saying it isn't "normal" for her to be up so late
>etc.

He really should not have to get up in the night
to ask her to turn it down. I would really feel
pissed off if I had to do that were I in his
shoes, and I might say all kinds of mean, nasty
things I don't mean! I gotta tell ya, I really
and truly don't mind if my son stays up the whole
night (he has on many occasions); he just needs
to respect my need for sleep the way I do his.

I bet if your husband feels that his needs are
being considered, it may help the situation
greatly. It will also help for your daughter in
many ways to feel that she's part of the
solution. The alternative of her not playing at
night could only breed resentment, which is
partly what your husband is probably feeling now.

>(some of this, I think, is that he is resentful of having to
>get up early...

And some of it may be that he's feeling like his
needs aren't being considered. I can really understand how he's feeling.

>I've tried talking to him about how allowing her to make
>her own choices isn't hurting anyone, and how it's an important part
>of unschooling, but he doesn't see it that way.

But, in this case, her choices are "hurting"
someone. Him! Not a good idea if you're trying to get his support! ;-)

Anyway, that's the first thing that pops into me
head. I hope it's a little helpful!

See ya this weekend!!!

~Marji



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On May 24, 2006, at 8:31 AM, jlh44music wrote:

> etimes be, and doesn't self regulate the
> level) and it wakes him up.

Rearrange things - be creative. Get her headphones for the tv - there
are wireless ones that cost $40 or less. (In fact, we're going to
move into a 2-bedroom apartment for the next 6 or so months - after
living in our own 4-bedroom house for years and now in a huge
spacious house for the past 3 months. We're going to need to figure
out how to handle noise - and I'm about to go order several sets
wireless headphones.)


> I suggested he get up and ask her to
> turn it down, but that hasn't happened, he usually complains to me
> the next day,

It is annoying to have to get up - wakes you up even more and makes
it harder to get back to sleep and then the noise in the background
is just MORE annoying. So I understand why he doesn't want to have to
get up and ask her to turn it down.

I've asked my husband not to complain to me about the kids. He still
does it once in a while and I just say, "Is there something specific
you're asking me to do?" If he said, "I want you to make her go to
bed," then we could talk about that - but I won't listen to him
whining on about them just for the sake of venting because he's too
prone to get negative and focus on faults and not ever notice the
wonderful amazing people they really are.

> saying it isn't "normal" for her to be up so late
> etc. (some of this, I think, is that he is resentful of having to
> get up early, NONE of us are morning people, and he'd really rather
> not have to! But he does it).

Teens and sleep - the NHEN website has some good articles here:
<http://www.nhen.org/teens/default.asp?id=2>
that explain why teens naturally gravitate toward staying awake until
the wee hours of the morning.

Page down to the VERY bottom - it is the last set of articles on a
long page.

He might be more understanding if he understands the chemistry of
sleep - that there are physiological reasons teenagers tend to stay
up really late and sleep late the next day.

>
> I suggested that we all sit down tonight to discuss this. The
> problem is that he tends to be negative, coming out with statements
> like "you need to go to bed!" etc in a tone of voice that is
> demanding.

My husband, too. And he genuinely doesn't seem to be able to "get"
how that affects our ability to discuss things.

> I've tried talking to him about how allowing her to make
> her own choices isn't hurting anyone, and how it's an important part
> of unschooling, but he doesn't see it that way.

So - will he read more? Will he just trust you? I remind my husband
that "I" was an American girl - "he" was neither a girl nor an
American, so maybe he needs to trust me when I tell him how he's
coming across to the girls. I'm more an expert than he is - and that
makes some sense to him - he's willing to take advice from an
'expert." <G>

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jlh44music

>>At any rate, she needs to understand fully that she shouldn't be
disturbing anyone's sleep. It's just not the right thing to do!>>

We talked about using headphones, she's going to try that. She DOES
understand, just didn't realize that the sound was carrying so
much. When I was staying up late with her I would remind her to
turn it down a bit if need be, but when it's just her she gets
absorbed and doesn't think about it.

>>I would really feel pissed off if I had to do that were I in his
shoes, and I might say all kinds of mean, nasty things I don't
mean! And some of it may be that he's feeling like his needs aren't
being considered.>>>

I didn't really think about it that way, you're right, I'm not
respecting HIS needs at all! Mean and nasty because he was woken up
is understandable, it's when he's awake at other times and doesn't
realize how his tone can be a turn off (been there, done that!) that
can makes communicating effectively difficult.
We both tend to react to conflict in the same way as when we were
growing up (combative and defensive). Neither of us had the kind of
support where we were really "heard" and I work very hard at being
respectful of my daughter, but I sometimes don't do as much as I can
for my husband, because I'm responding on an emotional level,
anticipating his negativity.

Beyond this is the issue that he thinks she should be going to sleep
earlier, "it's not normal" etc. I need to think some more on this
part.

>>I bet if your husband feels that his needs are being considered,
it may help the situation greatly. It will also help for your
daughter in many ways to feel that she's part of the solution. The
alternative of her not playing at night could only breed resentment,
which is partly what your husband is probably feeling now.>>

I DO want her to feel she's part of the solution, not just being
told she needs to go to bed earlier because he is bothered by it
(one of his balloons……). NOT playing at night is not an option for
the reason you state above! I don't have problem with her staying
up at all.

>I've tried talking to him about how allowing her to make her own
choices isn't hurting anyone, and how it's an important part of
unschooling, but he doesn't see it that way.>
>But, in this case, her choices are "hurting" someone. Him! Not a
good idea if you're trying to get his support! ;-)>>

Again, you're right. What I wrote is partially true, but I didn't
finish the connection. Staying up late isn't going to turn her into
a useless human being (is what I meant) but didn't take it one step
further in that if she's making enough sound to disturb his sleep,
then it IS hurting him. Respect goes both ways. I can really see
how it has improved things between my dd and I. We need to work
harder on including dad more (sometimes it's hard when he doesn't
want to meet us half way though!)

Thanks for your input Marji, I really appreciate it. Looking
forward to meeting you!
Jann

jlh44music

>Get her headphones for the tv – there are wireless ones that cost
$40 or less. (In fact, we're going to move into a 2-bedroom
apartment for the next 6 or so months…. >

I'm going to check out those wireless headphones for sure! EEK!
Good luck moving into a smaller place, I'm glad to hear it's
temporary.

>It is annoying to have to get up - wakes you up even more and makes
it harder to get back to sleep and then the noise in the background
is just MORE annoying. So I understand why he doesn't want to have
to get up and ask her to turn it down.>>

Oddly enough, he has his radio on all night (he likes the "noise" in
the background, his own version of "white noise"), another reason we
don't do well sleeping in the same room!. So, in a way I find it
odd that he's even hearing the sound from her room – makes me wonder
if a lot of it is more that he wakes up to use the bathroom,
realizes she's still up and is bothered because "it's not normal".
(and he usually falls to sleep VERY quickly, even after getting up,
so not sure about that either).

>I've asked my husband not to complain to me about the kids. He
still does it once in a while and I just say, "Is there something
specific you're asking me to do?" If he said, "I want you to make
her go to bed," then we could talk about that - but I won't listen
to him whining on about them just for the sake of venting because
he's too prone to get negative and focus on faults and not ever
notice the wonderful amazing people they really are.>

Boy, you could have written this about my dh! I'll have to try
asking if he has a specific request.

I've seen the info on the nhen site (sent it to him at work....
we'll see if he checks it out, he usually does if it's not too
lengthy!)

>My husband, too. And he genuinely doesn't seem to be able to "get"
how that affects our ability to discuss things.>

Glad to hear it's not just here (of course, I know I'm not the only
one with a dh who isn't totally on-board!). He has 3 older
brothers, and his mother was VERY intrusive and nagging. We've
talked MANY times about all of this, but I wish he would try harder
to approach his relationship with his daughter in a more respectful
way, instead of "playing the old tapes". And I know I have to try
harder to be more respectful of him, even though he still has his
own issues surrounding trust and self-worth.

Thanks for your input! You've given me more to think about!
Jann

freepsgal

> (some of this, I think, is that he is resentful of having to
> get up early, NONE of us are morning people, and he'd really
> rather not have to! But he does it).
> Jann

If he's open to the idea of talking and of being challenged, like we
are on this list, you could ask him how his sleep patterns would be
different if he didn't have to wake up early for work. What if his
hours changed and he could work 11am to 7pm or something
hypothetical. Would he still think it was important to go to bed at
a certain time and wake up early to begin his day?

I've just had this conversation with my DH and children. My DH
didn't mind the change in bedtimes at first but did grow concerned
after a while. He was worried about their health. But I pointed
out that our children get more sleep than he does because there is
no particular reason to wake them up so early. However, when we do
need to wake up to do something particular, they aren't dragging,
grumpy and whining. It's usually an activity of their choice or
something truly necessary that they don't mind waking up for.

One change I might suggest is the location of everyone's sleeping
places. Since you and he sleep in different rooms, is it possible
to change places so that he's not near your daughter's room and late
night noises? In our house, our kids rooms are directly across from
our bedroom, so they do not play in their bedrooms after we've gone
to sleep. They are either in the living room or downstairs in my
dd14's room. Then when they do go to bed, they are quiet and we
often sleep right through them getting into pjs, brushing teeth,
etc. Now that my DH isn't getting disturbed anymore, he's not
concerned about our children staying up late anymore.

Beth M.

jlh44music

> He was worried about their health. But I pointed out that our
children get more sleep than he does because there is no particular
reason to wake them up so early. However, when we do need to wake
up to do something particular, they aren't dragging, grumpy and
whining. It's usually an activity of their choice or something
truly necessary that they don't mind waking up for.>>>

Mine is more worried about "later on", that she WON'T be able to get
up or change her sleep habits. It will take time for him to truly
understand that if and when she wants/needs to change because of
what she wants to do with her life, then she will make the changes
necessary! And because this is so new to us, she's still
deschooling and healing, so I know it will take some time. She,
too, will get up if there's something of her choosing to do the next
day.

> One change I might suggest is the location of everyone's sleeping
places. Since you and he sleep in different rooms, is it possible
to change places so that he's not near your daughter's room and late
night noises?>>>>

Unfortunately the sleeping locations can't be changed. I have
chronic back pain, the bed we have now is the best I can tolerate,
the bed (futon) in the room that dh is sleeping on would not be a
good choice for me. I DID consider that switching would be ideal,
but it won't work in this case.

My dd was more aware last night of the volume and dh said he didn't
notice it, so, for now, it's working out.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts!
Jann

freepsgal

> Mine is more worried about "later on", that she WON'T be able to
> get up or change her sleep habits.

Yes, I've heard the argument. Let's see...

1. Children need to wake up early to go to school even if they are
homeschooled because we have to help them form the habit so when
they become adults they'll know how to wake up on time when they
have jobs.

2. Kids are healthier when they go to bed early and wake up early.

3. Our forefathers used to wake/work/sleep with the sun's pattern.
They woke up at dawn and went to bed at dusk. We'd be better
workers if we kept that tradition.

Those are the first three off the top of my head. *laugh* Before I
became a college student, I worked at the university. One of the
first things I learned was that morning classes were the least
popular among students and professors. Very few people wanted to go
to bed early and wake up early if they didn't have to do so. Since
becoming a homeschooling parent and hearing this argument that our
children won't know how to wake up early if we don't "teach" them,
I've often wondered how long it takes to undo that teaching. If a
college student spends all his/her time taking afternoon classes and
never waking up early, will his conditioning from childhood kick
back in when they graduate and have to work? Was there ever
conditioning? Or was it just a control that parents insist on
because it's the parent-y kind of thing to do? Couldn't the
student, child, adult, etc. now be motivated to get up early in
their anticipation or obligation of responsibility of going to work?

In helping your DH see this, ask him if the only reason he wakes up
in the morning to go to work is because his mom and dad forced him
to keep those 'normal' hours?

> Unfortunately the sleeping locations can't be changed.
> Jann

Please forgive me if this comes across as stupid, but can't the beds
be moved? I mean, not that I'm saying you have to change, but just
to throw the idea out there.

We're tossing around ideas for our own family right now. My dd14
has the huge bedroom downstairs. It's even larger than our master
suite! But!!!, she doesn't have a bathroom. We might switch with
her, giving her the master suite, but we haven't yet decided what to
do. The two younger kids are also kind of vying for that space.
We're just trying to figure out how we would all best fit into this
home. We're not a traditional family, obviously, so we don't really
care too much if we're in the master suite or not. But we do care
about being near a bathroom because we're old and wake up in the
middle of the night. *lol*

Beth M.

jlh44music

> Please forgive me if this comes across as stupid, but can't the beds
be moved? I mean, not that I'm saying you have to change, but just to
throw the idea out there.>>>

The bed I'm in is a kingsize and the master bedroom is the only one it
will fit in (we just built this house last year!). The other bedrooms
are smaller, so, it's not feasible to move them around. Not knowing
the layout we have, it's not a stupid question at all! Actually, as I
posted before, he sleeps with the radio on in his ear all night and
snores loud enough for me to hear him through the wall! (I have to run
a fan for white noise!), I think it's more that he wakes up to use the
bathroom and realizes she's still up, but I'm not witnessing it to
know for sure. No biggie, we're trying the headphones and dd being
more aware of the volume!

I'm hoping after this weekend at the conference (he's not going to all
of it, but agreed to some), that he'll get a better picture of
unschooling. I'm really looking forward to it, and to meeting so many
I've only met in cyber space!
Jann

freepsgal

> The bed I'm in is a kingsize and the master bedroom is the only
> one it will fit in (we just built this house last year!).
> Jann

Oh! That makes sense. My dd8 would really like a queen bed, or at
least a double bed, but her bedroom is so tiny that she'd lose all her
play space if we put a big bed in her room. When she's a little
older, she might not mind that too much but she enjoys having her
space right now so has resigned herself to keep the twin size. :)

Beth M.

jlh44music

> My dd8 would really like a queen bed, or at least a double bed, but
her bedroom is so tiny that she'd lose all her play space if we put a
big bed in her room. When she's a little older, she might not mind
that too much but she enjoys having her space right now so has
resigned herself to keep the twin size. :)>>>

My dd (13) has a queen sleigh bed now, we bought it last year when
shopping for new furniture for our room, she saw it and loved it, so
we said what the heck! Before that she was using my old canopy bed
from when I was young (twin). It DOES take up a good chunk of the
room, but now that she's older, play space has changed (to computer
and TV!) and she doesn't mind.
(Beth, I notice you're on "shine" too, both my dh and dd are HSPs!
adds to the mix of working out this new life style, but never a dull
moment! I'm glad I found the info on HS, it's helped SO much knowing!)
Jann