Re: [unschoolingbasics] TV as pure entertainment
Natalie Komitsky
Wow,
I just opened a big ole can of worms didn't I? Well it seems that we
all have our convictions on what is beneficial or worthwhile. I am
just lurking on the edge of unschooling, while I continue mulling over
issues such as this.
I limit my children's exposure to certain topics for a couple of reasons:
1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
for us.
2. My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeks
later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
go.
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence at
this point. They are only 6 and 8.
As for "pure entertainment", I guess you are right. Even pure
entertainment has much value. I guess I am looking at the couch
potato persona that accompanies these kinds of days. That is what
bugs me. I know when I am engaged with them, the TV doesn't matter.
As for the message of creativity is bad because it is messy - hey we
all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
them an option. I am moving forward there!
Salam,
Natalie
I just opened a big ole can of worms didn't I? Well it seems that we
all have our convictions on what is beneficial or worthwhile. I am
just lurking on the edge of unschooling, while I continue mulling over
issues such as this.
I limit my children's exposure to certain topics for a couple of reasons:
1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
for us.
2. My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeks
later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
go.
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence at
this point. They are only 6 and 8.
As for "pure entertainment", I guess you are right. Even pure
entertainment has much value. I guess I am looking at the couch
potato persona that accompanies these kinds of days. That is what
bugs me. I know when I am engaged with them, the TV doesn't matter.
As for the message of creativity is bad because it is messy - hey we
all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
them an option. I am moving forward there!
Salam,
Natalie
HABIB OWENS
I am new to unschooling and choose to unschool because it is what fits my children and me the best but a reason above all of that is that I want my children to be able to think for themselves and whatever they choose to learn about they need to be able to make a choice of they agree with it and disagree with it. I am a reader so when I heard a panel of parents and then a second panel of children speak on unschooling I began my research and at the same time because of my and my husband faith and believe in the bible I had to find the fit for me where I did not feel that my convictions and beliefs were not compromised. So again I was on a search spiritually this time to see how I could unschool and be true to my beliiefs and what I found out is that when my husband and I choose to follow the path spiritually it was our choice but we were able to make that choice based on what we saw in others at our church what we heard read and studied and that is what I want my children
to be able to do so as it realtes to T.V. when my children watch things that I may not agree with or hear things or learn things that go against our beliefs It is an opportunity for me to have a conversation with them let them know what their oarents believe ands why and then let them know that they to have ot make a choice of lwhat they want to believe we talk about how seeing that or hearing that makes them feel and it becomes one of the best opportunity for me to share with my children that a book or curriculum never could. My children are 5, 7 and 8 I don't want to not say that because sometimes it is hard when you read a post and try to relate without all the information.
Tywane
The way for a person to rise is to improve themselves every way they can, never suspecting that anybody wishes to hinder them. - Abraham Lincoln -
----- Original Message ----
From: Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:49:15 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] TV as pure entertainment
Wow,
I just opened a big ole can of worms didn't I? Well it seems that we
all have our convictions on what is beneficial or worthwhile. I am
just lurking on the edge of unschooling, while I continue mulling over
issues such as this.
I limit my children's exposure to certain topics for a couple of reasons:
1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
for us.
2. My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeks
later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
go.
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence at
this point. They are only 6 and 8.
As for "pure entertainment", I guess you are right. Even pure
entertainment has much value. I guess I am looking at the couch
potato persona that accompanies these kinds of days. That is what
bugs me. I know when I am engaged with them, the TV doesn't matter.
As for the message of creativity is bad because it is messy - hey we
all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
them an option. I am moving forward there!
Salam,
Natalie
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to be able to do so as it realtes to T.V. when my children watch things that I may not agree with or hear things or learn things that go against our beliefs It is an opportunity for me to have a conversation with them let them know what their oarents believe ands why and then let them know that they to have ot make a choice of lwhat they want to believe we talk about how seeing that or hearing that makes them feel and it becomes one of the best opportunity for me to share with my children that a book or curriculum never could. My children are 5, 7 and 8 I don't want to not say that because sometimes it is hard when you read a post and try to relate without all the information.
Tywane
The way for a person to rise is to improve themselves every way they can, never suspecting that anybody wishes to hinder them. - Abraham Lincoln -
----- Original Message ----
From: Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 5:49:15 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] TV as pure entertainment
Wow,
I just opened a big ole can of worms didn't I? Well it seems that we
all have our convictions on what is beneficial or worthwhile. I am
just lurking on the edge of unschooling, while I continue mulling over
issues such as this.
I limit my children's exposure to certain topics for a couple of reasons:
1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
for us.
2. My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeks
later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
go.
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence at
this point. They are only 6 and 8.
As for "pure entertainment", I guess you are right. Even pure
entertainment has much value. I guess I am looking at the couch
potato persona that accompanies these kinds of days. That is what
bugs me. I know when I am engaged with them, the TV doesn't matter.
As for the message of creativity is bad because it is messy - hey we
all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
them an option. I am moving forward there!
Salam,
Natalie
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 5/16/06, Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...> wrote:
than just unrestricted television. And I wouldn't be so quick to blame
television for what happened to their children. Their children could have
still had the same outcome even without television. I don't think that my
children have become "numb" to anything in life. They are still saddened by
someone dying and blush when they see people making out in public despite
seeing mass mayhem and makeout scenes on television. If you have religious
issues with what is on television, then perhaps you could "parental control"
them so that they aren't viewable to anyone. Seems as though if they are
forbidden to your children they should also be forbidden to you.
2. My kids are gifted,
All children are gifted. Some just open their presents sooner than others.
This was proven when we watched a
with being married when that isn't factually true. Your child called your
bluff.
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
children aren't interested in much of what you feel is innapropriate and if
they are then you need to figure out why and fill that curiosity rather than
squash it.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I would hazard that there was more going on in your relative's household
>
> 1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
> do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
> to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
> what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
> becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
> for us.
than just unrestricted television. And I wouldn't be so quick to blame
television for what happened to their children. Their children could have
still had the same outcome even without television. I don't think that my
children have become "numb" to anything in life. They are still saddened by
someone dying and blush when they see people making out in public despite
seeing mass mayhem and makeout scenes on television. If you have religious
issues with what is on television, then perhaps you could "parental control"
them so that they aren't viewable to anyone. Seems as though if they are
forbidden to your children they should also be forbidden to you.
2. My kids are gifted,
All children are gifted. Some just open their presents sooner than others.
This was proven when we watched a
> show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeksWell, you did give her false information. You associated having a baby
> later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
> her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
> responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
> go.
>
with being married when that isn't factually true. Your child called your
bluff.
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
> realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence atAs I stated in a previous post, most likely at 6 and 8 years old your
> this point. They are only 6 and 8.
children aren't interested in much of what you feel is innapropriate and if
they are then you need to figure out why and fill that curiosity rather than
squash it.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Natalie Komitsky
"If you have religious issues with what is on television, then perhaps
you could "parental control" them so that they aren't viewable to
anyone. Seems as though if they are forbidden to your children they
should also be forbidden to you."
Absolutely! I do practice what I preach. I am most concerned with
modeling desirable traits and behaviors.
"All children are gifted. Some just open their presents sooner than others."
I do believe that all children have unique qualities and abilities.
The term 'gifted' has a much more broad and deep meaning. Here's a
short article that explains these unique characteristics:
Unschooling the Gifted Child: Defining the Challenge from Within
by Lisa Rivero
http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/giftedchild.shtml
Salam,
Natalie
you could "parental control" them so that they aren't viewable to
anyone. Seems as though if they are forbidden to your children they
should also be forbidden to you."
Absolutely! I do practice what I preach. I am most concerned with
modeling desirable traits and behaviors.
"All children are gifted. Some just open their presents sooner than others."
I do believe that all children have unique qualities and abilities.
The term 'gifted' has a much more broad and deep meaning. Here's a
short article that explains these unique characteristics:
Unschooling the Gifted Child: Defining the Challenge from Within
by Lisa Rivero
http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/giftedchild.shtml
Salam,
Natalie
Melissa
ACK! I would ask that anyone providing this kind of info to
reconsider. I cannot tell you how many girls in my highschool wound
up pregnant because they had sex outside of marriage. They all
believed you had to be married to catch. Oy!
What we tell our children is that God (again, our personal beliefs)
wants us to be married before having sex because he wants us to be
happy. Being a single mom is very difficult, and sex in and of itself
is an emotional attachment that God wants people to share as long
term partners. My kids all know that a man and a woman make a baby,
whether on purpose or accidentally. And we have lots of opportunity
to discuss values. From birth control, relationships, marriage,
abortion, you name it. I guess probably not Sam or Dan, but they know
about how babies are made.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
reconsider. I cannot tell you how many girls in my highschool wound
up pregnant because they had sex outside of marriage. They all
believed you had to be married to catch. Oy!
What we tell our children is that God (again, our personal beliefs)
wants us to be married before having sex because he wants us to be
happy. Being a single mom is very difficult, and sex in and of itself
is an emotional attachment that God wants people to share as long
term partners. My kids all know that a man and a woman make a baby,
whether on purpose or accidentally. And we have lots of opportunity
to discuss values. From birth control, relationships, marriage,
abortion, you name it. I guess probably not Sam or Dan, but they know
about how babies are made.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
>
> This was proven when we watched a
> > show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few
> weeks
> > later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I
> told
> > her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
> > responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank.
> There you
> > go.
Natalie Komitsky
Not to worry dear, that was just my answer for the moment because she
was fantasizing about becoming a mother. Before she is impregnable,
she'll know the real deal...
Salam,
Natalie
was fantasizing about becoming a mother. Before she is impregnable,
she'll know the real deal...
Salam,
Natalie
On 5/17/06, Melissa <autismhelp@...> wrote:
>
> ACK! I would ask that anyone providing this kind of info to
> reconsider. I cannot tell you how many girls in my highschool wound
> up pregnant because they had sex outside of marriage. They all
> believed you had to be married to catch. Oy!
> What we tell our children is that God (again, our personal beliefs)
> wants us to be married before having sex because he wants us to be
> happy. Being a single mom is very difficult, and sex in and of itself
> is an emotional attachment that God wants people to share as long
> term partners. My kids all know that a man and a woman make a baby,
> whether on purpose or accidentally. And we have lots of opportunity
> to discuss values. From birth control, relationships, marriage,
> abortion, you name it. I guess probably not Sam or Dan, but they know
> about how babies are made.
>
>
> Melissa
> Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
> (2), and Avari Rose
>
> share our lives at
> http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
>
>
> >
> > This was proven when we watched a
> > > show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few
> > weeks
> > > later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I
> > told
> > > her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
> > > responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank.
> > There you
> > > go.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "unschoolingbasics" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Your message makes me think of a funny. Everyone's household is so different. I used to be a natural childbirth educator and still show my birth video to friends who I educate about birth now. It is nothing for my sons to see a woman giving birth. It is a part of what I do and it has never been a big deal because both have seen birthing videos since they were infants. This discussion is helping me to realize just how fascinating parents' responses to sexuality issues are.
Peace
Tyra
Peace
Tyra
----- Original Message -----
From: Melissa
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] TV as pure entertainment
ACK! I would ask that anyone providing this kind of info to
reconsider. I cannot tell you how many girls in my highschool wound
up pregnant because they had sex outside of marriage. They all
believed you had to be married to catch. Oy!
What we tell our children is that God (again, our personal beliefs)
wants us to be married before having sex because he wants us to be
happy. Being a single mom is very difficult, and sex in and of itself
is an emotional attachment that God wants people to share as long
term partners. My kids all know that a man and a woman make a baby,
whether on purpose or accidentally. And we have lots of opportunity
to discuss values. From birth control, relationships, marriage,
abortion, you name it. I guess probably not Sam or Dan, but they know
about how babies are made.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~Not to worry dear, that was just my answer for the moment because she
was fantasizing about becoming a mother. Before she is impregnable,
she'll know the real deal...~
Being honest with our children from day one is what builds
relationships wherein a child would trust the information they are
given. Lying to a five year old isn't going to help her understand any
future information. Even at five, we need to be perfectly honest with them
I don't see how that was a helpful answer. It's an outright lie.
Sex isn't some dirty thing. It's natural and we ought to treat it like
that.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
was fantasizing about becoming a mother. Before she is impregnable,
she'll know the real deal...~
Being honest with our children from day one is what builds
relationships wherein a child would trust the information they are
given. Lying to a five year old isn't going to help her understand any
future information. Even at five, we need to be perfectly honest with them
I don't see how that was a helpful answer. It's an outright lie.
Sex isn't some dirty thing. It's natural and we ought to treat it like
that.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"I do believe that all children have unique qualities and abilities.
The term 'gifted' has a much more broad and deep meaning. Here's a
short article that explains these unique characteristics:"
Labels can be harmful.
Putting a "gifted" label on your child is not going to help
unschooling unfold. Every child is unique in their own ways, knowing
our own children and how to help them explore the world is useful, but
we don't need to slap a label on them in order to do that.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
The term 'gifted' has a much more broad and deep meaning. Here's a
short article that explains these unique characteristics:"
Labels can be harmful.
Putting a "gifted" label on your child is not going to help
unschooling unfold. Every child is unique in their own ways, knowing
our own children and how to help them explore the world is useful, but
we don't need to slap a label on them in order to do that.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
" I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
At what arbitrary age will you just decide they can handle information
about sex or other topics? How uncomfortable will THAT be since
they'll know you weren't up front with them from day one??
I have always answered my children's questions factually from the time
they asked. I answered simply and if they wanted more info., I gave more.
Trevor wanted to know HOW the sperm got to the egg when he was 6 years
old! I told him. It's natural and happens every day, why be
uncomfortable about it. It's as natural and normal as the desire to
eat!! Just part of what human beings DO.
This very open way of talking and being honest has led to very
trusting relatinships in our family. Trevor asked me some pretty
detailed questions about sex a couple years ago. I really doubt he'd
been comfortable asking if I'd demonized it or lied to him in the past.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
> realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence atYou ARE keeping them naive even when they WANT to know information though.
> this point. They are only 6 and 8."
At what arbitrary age will you just decide they can handle information
about sex or other topics? How uncomfortable will THAT be since
they'll know you weren't up front with them from day one??
I have always answered my children's questions factually from the time
they asked. I answered simply and if they wanted more info., I gave more.
Trevor wanted to know HOW the sperm got to the egg when he was 6 years
old! I told him. It's natural and happens every day, why be
uncomfortable about it. It's as natural and normal as the desire to
eat!! Just part of what human beings DO.
This very open way of talking and being honest has led to very
trusting relatinships in our family. Trevor asked me some pretty
detailed questions about sex a couple years ago. I really doubt he'd
been comfortable asking if I'd demonized it or lied to him in the past.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...>
1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
for us.
-=-=-=-
My children watch mainstream TV without restriction with great results.
How do you explain this?
-=-==-
2. My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeks
later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
go.
-=-=-=-
I'll advise you to dump the gifted label.
But I think your son managed to process it emotionally just fine.
He called you on your bald-faced lie. Unfortunately, he didn't have
enough information. She doesn't have to use just a sperm bank. All she
needs to do is to have unprotected (and occasionally, even protected!)
sex.
You made another mistake by not explaining anything about sperm banks
in the first place! You were right *there* and didn't even explain
anything?????
There you go!
Don't think that a young child won't remember and take to heart what
she hears. When I was 7 (my brother was 6), my brother had read a
button that read, "FUCK." He asked my mother what that meant. She said,
after gulping hard---I remember *that* too---"That's the hippie word
for having a baby."
So, at seven, I thought that, if someone said, "she's fucked," she was
pregnant. I thought that for *years*! Because my MOTHER said so.
Lying puts the brakes on trust. If she finds out you've lied about
*that*, what else could you have lied about?
Not worth it!
-=-=-=-
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence at
this point. They are only 6 and 8.
-=-=-=-
That may not be your intention. But how do you think they will process
that information you've given them?
They *will* lose trust in you if you keep lying to them.
I prefer NOT to lose that trust!
-=-=-=-.
As for the message of creativity is bad because it is messy - hey we
all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
them an option. I am moving forward there!
-=-=-=-
Better to join them and not put restrictions/stipulations on their
learning. They *will* learn not to pursue art or cooking or other
"messy" endeavors if they think it's too much trouble or inconveneint
or unpleasant.
Make their options *better* ones! Make it fun and exciting. BE fun and
exciting!
I'm glad you're moving forward. <g> But that's not a "fault"---just a
not as good a choice/decision! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi
From: Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...>
1. A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch or
do) in our religion. I watched a close relative allow their children
to watch mainstream TV without supervision or restriction and I see
what the results have been. I want to limit the possibility of them
becoming numb to certain images that are normal on TV and forbidden
for us.
-=-=-=-
My children watch mainstream TV without restriction with great results.
How do you explain this?
-=-==-
2. My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank (I did not explain anything). A few weeks
later, my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. There you
go.
-=-=-=-
I'll advise you to dump the gifted label.
But I think your son managed to process it emotionally just fine.
He called you on your bald-faced lie. Unfortunately, he didn't have
enough information. She doesn't have to use just a sperm bank. All she
needs to do is to have unprotected (and occasionally, even protected!)
sex.
You made another mistake by not explaining anything about sperm banks
in the first place! You were right *there* and didn't even explain
anything?????
There you go!
Don't think that a young child won't remember and take to heart what
she hears. When I was 7 (my brother was 6), my brother had read a
button that read, "FUCK." He asked my mother what that meant. She said,
after gulping hard---I remember *that* too---"That's the hippie word
for having a baby."
So, at seven, I thought that, if someone said, "she's fucked," she was
pregnant. I thought that for *years*! Because my MOTHER said so.
Lying puts the brakes on trust. If she finds out you've lied about
*that*, what else could you have lied about?
Not worth it!
-=-=-=-
3. I don't intend to keep them locked up and naive about the
realities of life, I would just prefer to limit their prominence at
this point. They are only 6 and 8.
-=-=-=-
That may not be your intention. But how do you think they will process
that information you've given them?
They *will* lose trust in you if you keep lying to them.
I prefer NOT to lose that trust!
-=-=-=-.
As for the message of creativity is bad because it is messy - hey we
all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
them an option. I am moving forward there!
-=-=-=-
Better to join them and not put restrictions/stipulations on their
learning. They *will* learn not to pursue art or cooking or other
"messy" endeavors if they think it's too much trouble or inconveneint
or unpleasant.
Make their options *better* ones! Make it fun and exciting. BE fun and
exciting!
I'm glad you're moving forward. <g> But that's not a "fault"---just a
not as good a choice/decision! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...>
Not to worry dear, that was just my answer for the moment because she
was fantasizing about becoming a mother. Before she is impregnable,
she'll know the real deal...
-=-=-=-
If she's fantasizing, why NOT give her the correct information?
Perfect opportunity to build a foundation of trust and respect about an
often difficult subject.
Before she's impregnable???
I bet that's what all the parents of teenage mothers thought.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi
From: Natalie Komitsky <nkomitsky@...>
Not to worry dear, that was just my answer for the moment because she
was fantasizing about becoming a mother. Before she is impregnable,
she'll know the real deal...
-=-=-=-
If she's fantasizing, why NOT give her the correct information?
Perfect opportunity to build a foundation of trust and respect about an
often difficult subject.
Before she's impregnable???
I bet that's what all the parents of teenage mothers thought.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi
Deb Lewis
***I just opened a big ole can of worms didn't I? ***
Not at all. These are the topics we discuss again and again on
unschooling lists. You're here now to read it and in a month or a week
someone new will be here and it will come up again.
***I limit my children's exposure to certain topics for a couple of
reasons:***
Every person who limits another person thinks they have good reasons for
doing so.
Where ever you go your kids are likely to see people interacting in the
ways people do. When your kids go to visit friends they will watch what
their friends watch, they will see their friends parents kissing. And
when they discover that there are no immediate religious consequences to
watching they will wonder about the other "forbidden" things they have
been kept away from. It is easy to use rules to keep a six year old from
watching TV but it is not easy to keep ten or fifteen year old from doing
anything they want to do.
***My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. ***
"Gifted" is a label that has done as much harm to kids as the label
"stupid" or "slow" or "lazy."
If you care to explore this idea you can read something here:
http://sandradodd.com/giftedness
My kid is not gifted and he has been deciding what he likes to watch on
TV his whole life. He's usually been able to process what he chose to
watch and on the rare occasion he wasn't sure what he'd just seen or
heard he asked. One doesn't have to be gifted to be paying attention.
<g>
The expert in the article you sited, Howard Rowland, says that while any
kid wants to learn a gifted kid is "self propelled." Unschooling has
shown me and others here that every child is "self propelled." The only
kids who aren't pursuing their interests are kids who've been told their
interests aren't as important as academics.
And what did they say exactly about precociousness? That a precocious
child might be ahead of age mates in at least one area? Again, that's
any child. What they basically said was "gifted" children learn when
they're ready. That's natural learning and all people learn when
they're ready and not one minute before.
I think when a parent doesn't really know how to live easily with a kid
it's comforting to say that child is gifted because it lets the parent
off the hook. They have an excuse for a child they don't really
understand and can't easily control.
But one beautiful thing about unschooling is that it helps parents change
the way they see their role in their child's life so that they understand
the child doesn't need to be controlled in the first place.
***...he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank ***
<snip>
***my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. ***
You could have said most girls have to be older for their bodies to be
ready for a baby. You lied to her and then you found another reason to
think your son needs limits when he gave her more honest information.
That moment didn't prove his lack of maturity, it proved yours. <g>
Deb Lewis
Not at all. These are the topics we discuss again and again on
unschooling lists. You're here now to read it and in a month or a week
someone new will be here and it will come up again.
***I limit my children's exposure to certain topics for a couple of
reasons:***
Every person who limits another person thinks they have good reasons for
doing so.
Where ever you go your kids are likely to see people interacting in the
ways people do. When your kids go to visit friends they will watch what
their friends watch, they will see their friends parents kissing. And
when they discover that there are no immediate religious consequences to
watching they will wonder about the other "forbidden" things they have
been kept away from. It is easy to use rules to keep a six year old from
watching TV but it is not easy to keep ten or fifteen year old from doing
anything they want to do.
***My kids are gifted, my son is probably profoundly gifted, which
means that he can understand everything he sees but he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. ***
"Gifted" is a label that has done as much harm to kids as the label
"stupid" or "slow" or "lazy."
If you care to explore this idea you can read something here:
http://sandradodd.com/giftedness
My kid is not gifted and he has been deciding what he likes to watch on
TV his whole life. He's usually been able to process what he chose to
watch and on the rare occasion he wasn't sure what he'd just seen or
heard he asked. One doesn't have to be gifted to be paying attention.
<g>
The expert in the article you sited, Howard Rowland, says that while any
kid wants to learn a gifted kid is "self propelled." Unschooling has
shown me and others here that every child is "self propelled." The only
kids who aren't pursuing their interests are kids who've been told their
interests aren't as important as academics.
And what did they say exactly about precociousness? That a precocious
child might be ahead of age mates in at least one area? Again, that's
any child. What they basically said was "gifted" children learn when
they're ready. That's natural learning and all people learn when
they're ready and not one minute before.
I think when a parent doesn't really know how to live easily with a kid
it's comforting to say that child is gifted because it lets the parent
off the hook. They have an excuse for a child they don't really
understand and can't easily control.
But one beautiful thing about unschooling is that it helps parents change
the way they see their role in their child's life so that they understand
the child doesn't need to be controlled in the first place.
***...he lacks the
maturity to process it emotionally. This was proven when we watched a
show on a genius sperm bank ***
<snip>
***my daughter asked some question about having a baby and I told
her (because she was 5) that she had to be married first. My son
responded that no she didn't, she could use the sperm bank. ***
You could have said most girls have to be older for their bodies to be
ready for a baby. You lied to her and then you found another reason to
think your son needs limits when he gave her more honest information.
That moment didn't prove his lack of maturity, it proved yours. <g>
Deb Lewis
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 16, 2006, at 5:49 PM, Natalie Komitsky wrote:
This list -- as discussion lists as opposed to support lists -- was
created by the list owners as a place for people to present their
faults and problems and have them filtered through an unschooling lens.
It's also a place to share what will help people move towards
unschooling.
While we do all have our faults, all the ones brought to the list are
up for discussion. That's what the list is for. So if you have faults
or practices you don't want examined or don't want to change yet,
it's best to not write about them.
We have a small window in our own lives to be with our kids. We have
*the rest* of our lives to do the things that will get in the way of
them reaching their full potential. We can have our houses neat as a
pin. We can have nothing but raw vegan foods in the house. We can get
rid of the TV.
But we've chosen to have kids. Kids *are* inconvenient. They make
messes. They cost money. They impose on our time.
We can continue to see the ways kids inconvenience us and make our
life more difficult as burdens to be borne. Or we can find ways to
let go of that view point and see the extra effort we will need to
put in as a *gift* to them.
Give them the gift of freedom to create! Don't paint creativity with
the brush of drudgery of cleaning up. Do ask them to help but make it
a real request and allow them to say no thanks. Look at their joyous
faces as they create and keep that in mind as you clean up because
you have the ability to give that freedom to them.
Give them the gift of your ear to listen to them. Because if you
listen only enough to hear whether they are saying things you want
them to think and believe, they *will* find someone else who will say
"I understand. Tell me about it." Because people who want something
from others know that's exactly what other people want to hear.
children the freedom to explore while holding onto strong
convictions. I don't think there are specifically Muslim unschooling
lists but there are radical Christian unschooling lists. The ideas
will be the same even if the specifics aren't.
But as I said before, we *all* have values we want our children to
have. There are a lot of things on TV that I don't want for my
daughter. There are values expressed there that I don't want her to
have. But I know that fear is a big neon sign that points to those
values. I know that roadblocks are what make people curious.
Regardless of what religion (or lack of religion) we're practicing,
we have all thought deeply about passing on our values. There *are*
choices other than "You can't" and "Whatever". Just because we aren't
saying "No, don't." doesn't mean we don't care and we aren't doing
*other* things to help our kids. Ask how we're doing it rather than
assuming we are just letting them do whatever! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am moving forward there!Great! This is a place for helping people move forward! :-)
> hey weYes, we all have our faults.
> all have our faults right? At least I'm owning up to mine and giving
> them an option.
This list -- as discussion lists as opposed to support lists -- was
created by the list owners as a place for people to present their
faults and problems and have them filtered through an unschooling lens.
It's also a place to share what will help people move towards
unschooling.
While we do all have our faults, all the ones brought to the list are
up for discussion. That's what the list is for. So if you have faults
or practices you don't want examined or don't want to change yet,
it's best to not write about them.
We have a small window in our own lives to be with our kids. We have
*the rest* of our lives to do the things that will get in the way of
them reaching their full potential. We can have our houses neat as a
pin. We can have nothing but raw vegan foods in the house. We can get
rid of the TV.
But we've chosen to have kids. Kids *are* inconvenient. They make
messes. They cost money. They impose on our time.
We can continue to see the ways kids inconvenience us and make our
life more difficult as burdens to be borne. Or we can find ways to
let go of that view point and see the extra effort we will need to
put in as a *gift* to them.
Give them the gift of freedom to create! Don't paint creativity with
the brush of drudgery of cleaning up. Do ask them to help but make it
a real request and allow them to say no thanks. Look at their joyous
faces as they create and keep that in mind as you clean up because
you have the ability to give that freedom to them.
Give them the gift of your ear to listen to them. Because if you
listen only enough to hear whether they are saying things you want
them to think and believe, they *will* find someone else who will say
"I understand. Tell me about it." Because people who want something
from others know that's exactly what other people want to hear.
> A lot of what is considered normal on TV is forbidden (to watch orThere *are* religious folks who have found ways to give their
> do) in our religion.
children the freedom to explore while holding onto strong
convictions. I don't think there are specifically Muslim unschooling
lists but there are radical Christian unschooling lists. The ideas
will be the same even if the specifics aren't.
But as I said before, we *all* have values we want our children to
have. There are a lot of things on TV that I don't want for my
daughter. There are values expressed there that I don't want her to
have. But I know that fear is a big neon sign that points to those
values. I know that roadblocks are what make people curious.
Regardless of what religion (or lack of religion) we're practicing,
we have all thought deeply about passing on our values. There *are*
choices other than "You can't" and "Whatever". Just because we aren't
saying "No, don't." doesn't mean we don't care and we aren't doing
*other* things to help our kids. Ask how we're doing it rather than
assuming we are just letting them do whatever! :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 16, 2006, at 6:38 PM, Natalie Komitsky wrote:
a situation that made you uncomfortable.
So when your daughter is older and you ask her where she was all
afternoon, it will be okay if she gives you an answer that's more
comfortable for her than the truth? It will be okay if she leads you
to believe what *she* wants you to believe rather than telling the
truth?
That type of thinking is *so* common to conventional parenting that
we don't even notice the hypocrisy. We come to see our way as right
so whatever means we use to achieve it is also right.
But when we turn it around and picture our children using those
means, it's so obviously wrong.
If your child gives you misinformation don't you trust their
understanding less? If they lie, don't you trust them less? Is that
what you want for your relationship with your kids?
One mother several years ago decided her kids were watching too much
TV so she pulled the plug and told the kids the TV was broken.
If we use the technique of making someone do and believe as we want
them to, what are we modeling for them? That when someone isn't
doing what you want, the best technique is to be bigger and stronger
and make them?
But the other option isn't letting them loose to do whatever they
want! That doesn't give them the skills to handle disagreements and
differences of opinion either. There *are* other options.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Absolutely! I do practice what I preach. I am most concerned withAh, but see you practiced lying/misinformation as a way to get out of
> modeling desirable traits and behaviors.
a situation that made you uncomfortable.
So when your daughter is older and you ask her where she was all
afternoon, it will be okay if she gives you an answer that's more
comfortable for her than the truth? It will be okay if she leads you
to believe what *she* wants you to believe rather than telling the
truth?
That type of thinking is *so* common to conventional parenting that
we don't even notice the hypocrisy. We come to see our way as right
so whatever means we use to achieve it is also right.
But when we turn it around and picture our children using those
means, it's so obviously wrong.
If your child gives you misinformation don't you trust their
understanding less? If they lie, don't you trust them less? Is that
what you want for your relationship with your kids?
One mother several years ago decided her kids were watching too much
TV so she pulled the plug and told the kids the TV was broken.
If we use the technique of making someone do and believe as we want
them to, what are we modeling for them? That when someone isn't
doing what you want, the best technique is to be bigger and stronger
and make them?
But the other option isn't letting them loose to do whatever they
want! That doesn't give them the skills to handle disagreements and
differences of opinion either. There *are* other options.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 17, 2006, at 6:42 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
There is an unschooling page at ArabesQ but all the info is general
unschooling, not specific to Muslims.
Which isn't a suggestion to go away. But a source of *more*
information. I know many Christian unschoolers get the impression
that secular unschoolers don't understand, many unschoolers of
special needs kids and gifted kids get the idea that unschoolers of
typical children don't understand but we do. We have the same general
concerns, just not the specific concerns. But the principles of
unschooling work whether a child is Jewish or Pagan or Muslim or
autistic or reading Proust at 3. It's all about learning who that
child is and nurturing who he is. It's about living our lives
together within the framework of values *and* freedom.
We can share our values without imposing them. We can help them think
about the why behind the values we hold. But they can't truly think
and understand if we don't give them the freedom to think "wrong"
thoughts. Art critics don't come to understand what good art is by
memorizing some expert's idea of what is "good art" They come to
understand by being free to embrace all art and come to their own
understanding.
I've never told my daughter not to shoot someone. (There are plenty
of 14 yos who have.) And yet she isn't a violent person. Why? She's
free to shoot and destroy things in video games -- so she's had the
ability to explore the possibilities -- but she doesn't in real life.
Why? It isn't because I've stepped back and let her do whatever she
wants. It's because she's grown up in a loving supportive environment
that's given her the freedom to make choices and weigh the good and
bad of decisions. And she knows I'm there to help her. She'd be gving
up a great deal to turn her back on those values.
If your values feel like chains and restrictions rather than a way to
have what is valuable, then kids have the choice of bending beneath
the weight of the chains and giving in or of fighting against them
and running far far away. While fear and restrictions have kept kids
within the confines of Christianity because they fear what lies
beyond the boundaries, it has also for many kids firmly entwined the
religion with feeling confined and controlled so, to throw off the
control, they throw off the religion too.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't think there are specifically Muslim unschoolingForgot to put in the link to a list of more information:
> lists but there are radical Christian unschooling lists.
http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingotherwise
There is an unschooling page at ArabesQ but all the info is general
unschooling, not specific to Muslims.
Which isn't a suggestion to go away. But a source of *more*
information. I know many Christian unschoolers get the impression
that secular unschoolers don't understand, many unschoolers of
special needs kids and gifted kids get the idea that unschoolers of
typical children don't understand but we do. We have the same general
concerns, just not the specific concerns. But the principles of
unschooling work whether a child is Jewish or Pagan or Muslim or
autistic or reading Proust at 3. It's all about learning who that
child is and nurturing who he is. It's about living our lives
together within the framework of values *and* freedom.
We can share our values without imposing them. We can help them think
about the why behind the values we hold. But they can't truly think
and understand if we don't give them the freedom to think "wrong"
thoughts. Art critics don't come to understand what good art is by
memorizing some expert's idea of what is "good art" They come to
understand by being free to embrace all art and come to their own
understanding.
I've never told my daughter not to shoot someone. (There are plenty
of 14 yos who have.) And yet she isn't a violent person. Why? She's
free to shoot and destroy things in video games -- so she's had the
ability to explore the possibilities -- but she doesn't in real life.
Why? It isn't because I've stepped back and let her do whatever she
wants. It's because she's grown up in a loving supportive environment
that's given her the freedom to make choices and weigh the good and
bad of decisions. And she knows I'm there to help her. She'd be gving
up a great deal to turn her back on those values.
If your values feel like chains and restrictions rather than a way to
have what is valuable, then kids have the choice of bending beneath
the weight of the chains and giving in or of fighting against them
and running far far away. While fear and restrictions have kept kids
within the confines of Christianity because they fear what lies
beyond the boundaries, it has also for many kids firmly entwined the
religion with feeling confined and controlled so, to throw off the
control, they throw off the religion too.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> "I do believe that all children have unique qualities and abilities.Read more about multiple intelligences - you'll discover that what
> The term 'gifted' has a much more broad and deep meaning. Here's a
> short article that explains these unique characteristics:"
the term "gifted" is usually applied to is really just one or two
particular kinds of intelligence.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
katherand2003
Exactly my experience of growing up in a fundamental religious home.
The associations I had and still have of Christianity are so weighty
and continue to be reminiscent of the abuse of so many Christians I've
known (starting with my family). My response has been to reject the
religion. I don't want those ties that bind anymore. This doesn't
mean I don't consider myself a Christian.
The real kicker is it's possible to raise children who follow rules
without using principles or carrying any solid values. I was lucky
not to have that problem. Because I resisted the rule orientation I
grew up under, I looked for something else. I gathered my ideas from
all over, mostly reading. Rules might work as long as there are "well
travelled roads" and no need for a "compass" to guide to the next
step. I'd rather ds formulated a clear set of values (a nice accurate
compass) while still living with me, free to get messy, make mistakes
and learn what works, a little at a time, in a relatively safe
environment.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
The associations I had and still have of Christianity are so weighty
and continue to be reminiscent of the abuse of so many Christians I've
known (starting with my family). My response has been to reject the
religion. I don't want those ties that bind anymore. This doesn't
mean I don't consider myself a Christian.
The real kicker is it's possible to raise children who follow rules
without using principles or carrying any solid values. I was lucky
not to have that problem. Because I resisted the rule orientation I
grew up under, I looked for something else. I gathered my ideas from
all over, mostly reading. Rules might work as long as there are "well
travelled roads" and no need for a "compass" to guide to the next
step. I'd rather ds formulated a clear set of values (a nice accurate
compass) while still living with me, free to get messy, make mistakes
and learn what works, a little at a time, in a relatively safe
environment.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> While fear and restrictions have kept kids
> within the confines of Christianity because they fear what lies
> beyond the boundaries, it has also for many kids firmly entwined the
> religion with feeling confined and controlled so, to throw off the
> control, they throw off the religion too.