Misty Felner

After reading some of Linda's responses and thoughts it gave the courage to
post some thoughts I've been having about some of the responses to dd is a
hitter. I am the original poster, and many people have replied saying that
it's not possible for a 2.5 yo to do something maliciously. I've been
giving that a lot of thought, and even looked up the definitions for
malicious and vindictive in the dictionary. They both stated that it was
doing something out of spite or for intentional harm. I still feel that it
is possible for a toddler to do something spiteful. Examples... When dd
does something that I say hurts, she understands what hurt is, and she gets
this spiteful look on her face and does it again even harder. A friend of
mine with a child the same age noticed that another child was picking on
hers always taking toys from him etc. One day her son had had enough and
"got even" with him. Most people respond saying that we're putting adult
feelings and emotions on a child, but at the same time they say that the
child doesn't understand or can't express the feelings he's having. They
feel frustrated, abandoned, lonely, jealous, but can't express it. Well
these are all adult emotions and feelings I don't see how they differ. I
also don't understand how someone can say that a 2 yo is capable of
understanding that the food they ate 30 min or an hour, maybe even longer
before is causing their tummy to ache, or that they feel cranky b/c they
stayed up late the night before. If they can understand that, why is it
impossible for them to do something out of spite. And, if you still feel
they can't be malicious when are they capable of that is there a certain age
or experience that suddenly causes them to be able to have those emotions.
I don't think ill of my dd for experiencing this anymore than I would be
angry with her for getting upset with frustration, it's just another
feeling, I'm just trying to get her to learn that we don't act on those
feelings.

Misty

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/15/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
>
> I've been
> giving that a lot of thought, and even looked up the definitions for
> malicious and vindictive in the dictionary. They both stated that it was
> doing something out of spite or for intentional harm. I still feel that
> it
> is possible for a toddler to do something spiteful. Examples... When dd
> does something that I say hurts, she understands what hurt is, and she
> gets
> this spiteful look on her face and does it again even harder.


Hmm. Doesn't seem vindictive or malicious to me. Sounds like *you* didn't
understand what she wanted the first time, so she did the same thing
harder! So, she wants something from you (could be your attention, could be
a toy, could be anything). You don't give it to her. She hits you. You
still don't give it to her but you tell her that her hitting hurts. "Hmmm.
Mom didn't get the picture. Let's hit her again harder so maybe this time
she will get it!" She isn't hitting you to hit you. She is hitting you
because she still has a need.





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Manisha Kher

--- Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:

> After reading some of Linda's responses and thoughts
> it gave the courage to
> post some thoughts I've been having about some of
> the responses to dd is a
> hitter. I am the original poster, and many people
> have replied saying that
> it's not possible for a 2.5 yo to do something
> maliciously. I've been
> giving that a lot of thought, and even looked up the
> definitions for
> malicious and vindictive in the dictionary. They
> both stated that it was
> doing something out of spite or for intentional
> harm. I still feel that it
> is possible for a toddler to do something spiteful.
> Examples... When dd
> does something that I say hurts, she understands
> what hurt is, and she gets
> this spiteful look on her face and does it again
> even harder.
A small child can feel quite powerless most of the
time. If that child discovers something that can make
her feel more powerful such as hurting someone, the
child might start doing that. I suspect that's what is
going on here. She is not being spiteful or malicious,
she is trying to be more powerful.

It really doesn't matter whether she is capable of
being spiteful or not. It will help if you attribute
her positive motives instead of negative ones. She is
trying to change her world in some way. See what needs
to be changed.

> Most people respond saying
> that we're putting adult
> feelings and emotions on a child, but at the same
> time they say that the
> child doesn't understand or can't express the
> feelings he's having. They
> feel frustrated, abandoned, lonely, jealous, but
> can't express it. Well
> these are all adult emotions and feelings I don't
> see how they differ.
You're putting adult motives on her actions.


> I also don't understand how someone can say that a 2
> yo is capable of
> understanding that the food they ate 30 min or an
> hour, maybe even longer
> before is causing their tummy to ache, or that they
> feel cranky b/c they
> stayed up late the night before.
I don't think anyone has said that. People have talked
about how to help children make that connection.



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trektheory

>
> On 5/15/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've been
> > giving that a lot of thought, and even looked up the definitions
for
> > malicious and vindictive in the dictionary. They both stated
that it was
> > doing something out of spite or for intentional harm. I still
feel that
> > it
> > is possible for a toddler to do something spiteful. Examples...
When dd
> > does something that I say hurts, she understands what hurt is,
and she
> > gets
> > this spiteful look on her face and does it again even harder.
>

As I reread this (it was in another reply), I thought of something
yet again. She may understand HER hurt, but not realize that others
feel exactly the same way. That is part of the difficulty with
having an asynchronous, verbal child -- you have a hard time
believing that they don't understand things that seem so basic to
us, and that they even have and seem to use the words appropriately -
-but then realize that there is a hole in their understanding you
could drive a Mac Truck through! (This continues well past 2 and 3,
btw.) Kids don't realize that YOU don't know what they are thinking
and feeling when you have no clue, and they have no clue you have no
clue, so are feeling annoyed that you aren't acting what they might
deem appropriately.

Just a thought to put in the pot. Simmer, and see what comes out!

Linda

>

marji

At 13:56 5/15/2006, Manisha wrote:

>It really doesn't matter whether she is capable of
>being spiteful or not. It will help if you attribute
>her positive motives instead of negative ones. She is
>trying to change her world in some way. See what needs
>to be changed.

Boy! I think this really needs to be repeated!! I think we need to
remember this for ourselves, too, now and in the past. I've been
doing a lot of work over the years to heal from my own childhood
experience, and there were a lot of things that I did that I didn't
understand at the time, and nobody else did either at the time. I
felt a lot of shame, because I was told I was "bad" or "lazy" or
"inconsiderate" or "selfish" or any other thing that would explain my
behavior in terms that could justify the punishment I was subjected to.

Moving ahead to the present, it took a very kind and compassionate
person working with me to point out that those things that I did were
always done for the greatest good at the time; in my own way, I was
trying to control my little piece of the universe and responding to
my surroundings, not with a malicious intent but either to protect
myself or make a safe space for myself or to make the world a little
more understandable from my young, particular perspective. That's a
reasonable and good thing to do, but of course, I couldn't enunciate
any of that back then. And, my parents, loving and sweet though they
were (but punitive and short-tempered nevertheless), couldn't peer
inside my head to see *why* I was doing what I was doing.

It's interesting to think now about how things might have been
different if my folks, with their greater experience and ability to
be articulate and insightful, could have done that.

Now, I have the glorious opportunity to do that for my son! How
enormously grateful I am for that!!


~Marji (card-carrying exclamation point abuser!!!)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], "trektheory"
<trektheory@...> wrote:
>
>> Kids don't realize that YOU don't know what they are thinking
> and feeling when you have no clue, and they have no clue you have no
> clue, so are feeling annoyed that you aren't acting what they might
> deem appropriately.
>
> Just a thought to put in the pot. Simmer, and see what comes out!
>
> Linda
>
> >
Example (with my almost 8 yr old): he'll start a game and say "Okay
let's play 'Battle for Naboo'" and hand me some things - craft sticks,
toilet paper tubes, knex pieces, small figures, whatever. When I ask
questions like "Okay what do I do next? What is the goal? What are the
rules I have to stay inside?" he gets frustrated and I have to remind
him "I need your help - this game is all inside your brain right now,
so I need you to help me understand what to do so we can play
together."

Just an example to show that it's not limited to toddlers.

--Deb

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: trektheory <trektheory@...>

Kids don't realize that YOU don't know what they are thinking
and feeling when you have no clue, and they have no clue you have no
clue, so are feeling annoyed that you aren't acting what they might
deem appropriately.
--=-=-=-

I think that goes for a lot of things!

We seem all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere for the first few
years. We *seem* to know when they're hungry, tired, hurt,
whatever---in fact, we're just reading their cues.

I think it's a HUGE shock when a child realizes his parents are NOT as
brilliant as he has always thought they were! <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 15, 2006, at 2:37 PM, trektheory wrote:

> She may understand HER hurt, but not realize that others
> feel exactly the same way.

I can *clearly* remember feeling this as a *TEEN*! I could have
properly answered test questions on whether humans could feel pain or
be hurt. Intellectually I understood but empathically it was lost on
me. All I knew was that people around me were not understanding what
was going on inside me and if they'd just pay attention and meet my
needs then I wouldn't need to feel and be so grumpy. And I had 13 or
14 more years on the planet than your daughter and was way more
verbal than even the most precocious 2.5 yo but I *still* had
emotions swamping my understanding.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>> I still feel that it is possible for a toddler to do something spiteful.>>

I've tried several different ways to phrase this so as not to offend. I don't know that I can do it this time though. This statement just makes me sad. A toddler is a tiny little person only here on this earth a few years and IMO should NOT be burdened with labels and intentions like this.

Children want to please their elders. They want to be loved. They want to be liked. They want to learn how to do all the stuff the big people do. Sometimes it gets frustrating for them. They have little hands, get tired easily, get overwhelmed and hungry and are not yet skilled in the social graces. This is not the same as "malicious ill will prompting an urge to hurt or humiliate," the definition of spite.

Is this really how you want to think about your child, as spiteful, vindictive or malicious?
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Misty Felner" <misty@...>