Help- dd is a hitter
Misty
My 2.5 yo dd is a very aggressive hitter. I've been dealing with
the issue of hitting with her for over a year now, and I can't seem
to get her to stop. Mainly she hits her friends her own age,
usually boys, maybe b/c that's what our playgroup is mostly
comprised of, and she hits her daddy often, and at times me. Though
I know they say children don't do things to be manipulative, she
definitely seems to do it malisciously. I've even had friends tell
me how "unique" my dd's behavor is as they've seen more and more
interaction among toddlers/preschoolers. They say they've never
seen anyone her age be so vindictive. I've tried just about
everything I can think of and can't get her to stop. This will
probably be a long post, b/c I want to give you as much information
on our situation as possible, and maybe somewhat disjointed. Sorry,
hope you can follow my thoughts.
***First of all let me give you some examples of her "aggressive
behaviour"
Yesterday at a LLL meeting she found a stick and started poking the
two boys she'd been playing with, ages 3 & 4. I didn't know she was
doing this until she'd done it a couple of times. At one point she
poked one little boy in the ear and hurt him. The family is one we
know and have been around several times, so the mother reprimanded
dd without hesitation. My daughter didn't seemed phased. After a
few minutes the mother and child left for the bathroom or something
as they were leaving the son went up to dd and said "don't poke me
with the stick Rachel" and then left. Rachel immediately turned to
the other boy she'd poked earlier, the 4yo, and tried to hit him.
Last night she had a nighttime snack before she went to bed, she
chose honey dew. We took her into the bathroom to clean her up,
like always. When it came time to brush her teeth my husband picked
her up, she's lost interest in doing it herself and declined it
again, and she slapped him across the face. We put her in time
out. Afterwards we went back to the bathroom only to have the
scenario repeat. Time outs are about the only thing I've read to do
in situations of aggressive behaviour. I will get more into that
later.
This morning she asked for her best friend to come over and play,
he'd been gone for a week and we haven't seen him. Once he came
over they played for about 10-15 minutes before she started becoming
aggressive... pulling on him, pushing him, kicking. Finally we had
to attend the playdate after less than half an hour b/c Rachel
slapped him across the face (her preferred thing to do) when he sat
in a chair that she apparently didn't want him sitting in, even
though she never seems to use it herself.
On another instance she was nursing and started twirling my hair I
told her she was pulling it and it was hurting me to please stop.
She took hold of my hair and yanked as hard as she could. This has
happened more than once.
When my husband plays with her if he lays down or does something she
doesn't want her to do she throws things at him.
**Reasons I think why this may be happening.
Let me say first that I do not believe this is a communication
thing. DD is very bright for her age her language is about a year
ahead of her age. She has never had problems being able to
communicate, adn has never had temper tantrums like those I've seen
or heard of kids doing out of frustration from not being able to
communicate.
This behaviour seems to be on a roller coaster trend. She may go
weeks without any serious problems, except with dad, then have a
couple of weeks with nothing but problems.
At one time I suspected that she was doing it when she was feeling
abandonment. Dad's been gone to work so she let's him know her
disproval by hitting and throwing things at him. She hasn't seen
her friends so she aggressive toward them when she does. But, that
didn't seem to follow the pattern, except maybe with dh. When it
comes to kids, she often picks on whom she deems the "weakest".
Maybe the youngest in the group, the one with the least verbal
skilss, the one with the least agility, the clingy one, etc. Again
I find it interesting that I don't seem to see her pick on girls as
much, but as I said mainly plays with boys. Most of the girls in
our group have WAHMs so most of the playdates she is the only girl.
I've noticed she doesn't seem to have problems in our unschooling
group were the kids are all older than her, also contains more
girls.
Like most children the lows on the roller coaster especially occur
during times when she's tired or hungry. This week has been
especially bad, and dh thinks maybe she's not feeling well. He's
had really bad allergies this week, and he thinks maybe she has as
well. She's rarely sick, I think only twice in 2 1/2 yrs so she
doesn't have a lot of experience in communicating when her body
doesn't feel well. I've noticed this week as well that she's been
much more, disobedient for lack of a better word. She's dumping out
things onto the floor and doing other things she hasn't done in
several months and knows is wrong.
***Books I've read...
Since this trend began at about 14 mo or so I've read any book I
could about discipline. I've read
-Dr. Sears discipline book
- LLL Without Spanking or Spoiling
-Harvey Karp's Happies Toddler (not helpful I found)
-Love and Logic for Preschooler
-Don't shoot the dog (a book our local API leader gave me about
behavor training.)
-(I've even read the What to Expect book) As well as a non-approved
LLL about 2 and 3 yo.
I haven't read Alfie Kohn, I just recently heard about him, and
have "unconditionaly love" on reserve at the library wants it is
returned.
It seems like the primary example as a problem in most of these
books is cleaning up toys. I could give a rats ass about that, I
just want my dd to stop hitting!
***Methods we've tried..
As I think I mentioned earlier it seems that most of the books talk
about Time outs, which we're finding not to be very effective, and
I'm beginning to feel they're too punitive.
We've tried giving her words or alternative things she could do in
different situations. Expressing herself using words, walking away,
playing something else, etc.
We've said things like, hitting isn't how we touch someone, this is
how, and took her hand showed her.
We leave her have friends leave when she begins to get aggressive.
Saying we can't stay if we're hurting others. This doesn't seem to
be effective. She doesn't really seem to care about having
friends. She asks occassionally for her best friend but other than
that she could care less. (My DH is kind of the same way)
It alludes me what else we've tried, but if I think of it I'll add
it.
I mentioned this problem several months back at a LLL toddler
meeting and every suggestion was something we'd tried. The final
conclusion was that she just need to grow out of it. But I can't
wait for her to grow out of it any longer.
Regardless of the cause this behavior needs to stop. She needs to
learn that even if she's tired or hungry, hitting and other
aggressive acts are never ok. Help please.
Desperate,
Misty
the issue of hitting with her for over a year now, and I can't seem
to get her to stop. Mainly she hits her friends her own age,
usually boys, maybe b/c that's what our playgroup is mostly
comprised of, and she hits her daddy often, and at times me. Though
I know they say children don't do things to be manipulative, she
definitely seems to do it malisciously. I've even had friends tell
me how "unique" my dd's behavor is as they've seen more and more
interaction among toddlers/preschoolers. They say they've never
seen anyone her age be so vindictive. I've tried just about
everything I can think of and can't get her to stop. This will
probably be a long post, b/c I want to give you as much information
on our situation as possible, and maybe somewhat disjointed. Sorry,
hope you can follow my thoughts.
***First of all let me give you some examples of her "aggressive
behaviour"
Yesterday at a LLL meeting she found a stick and started poking the
two boys she'd been playing with, ages 3 & 4. I didn't know she was
doing this until she'd done it a couple of times. At one point she
poked one little boy in the ear and hurt him. The family is one we
know and have been around several times, so the mother reprimanded
dd without hesitation. My daughter didn't seemed phased. After a
few minutes the mother and child left for the bathroom or something
as they were leaving the son went up to dd and said "don't poke me
with the stick Rachel" and then left. Rachel immediately turned to
the other boy she'd poked earlier, the 4yo, and tried to hit him.
Last night she had a nighttime snack before she went to bed, she
chose honey dew. We took her into the bathroom to clean her up,
like always. When it came time to brush her teeth my husband picked
her up, she's lost interest in doing it herself and declined it
again, and she slapped him across the face. We put her in time
out. Afterwards we went back to the bathroom only to have the
scenario repeat. Time outs are about the only thing I've read to do
in situations of aggressive behaviour. I will get more into that
later.
This morning she asked for her best friend to come over and play,
he'd been gone for a week and we haven't seen him. Once he came
over they played for about 10-15 minutes before she started becoming
aggressive... pulling on him, pushing him, kicking. Finally we had
to attend the playdate after less than half an hour b/c Rachel
slapped him across the face (her preferred thing to do) when he sat
in a chair that she apparently didn't want him sitting in, even
though she never seems to use it herself.
On another instance she was nursing and started twirling my hair I
told her she was pulling it and it was hurting me to please stop.
She took hold of my hair and yanked as hard as she could. This has
happened more than once.
When my husband plays with her if he lays down or does something she
doesn't want her to do she throws things at him.
**Reasons I think why this may be happening.
Let me say first that I do not believe this is a communication
thing. DD is very bright for her age her language is about a year
ahead of her age. She has never had problems being able to
communicate, adn has never had temper tantrums like those I've seen
or heard of kids doing out of frustration from not being able to
communicate.
This behaviour seems to be on a roller coaster trend. She may go
weeks without any serious problems, except with dad, then have a
couple of weeks with nothing but problems.
At one time I suspected that she was doing it when she was feeling
abandonment. Dad's been gone to work so she let's him know her
disproval by hitting and throwing things at him. She hasn't seen
her friends so she aggressive toward them when she does. But, that
didn't seem to follow the pattern, except maybe with dh. When it
comes to kids, she often picks on whom she deems the "weakest".
Maybe the youngest in the group, the one with the least verbal
skilss, the one with the least agility, the clingy one, etc. Again
I find it interesting that I don't seem to see her pick on girls as
much, but as I said mainly plays with boys. Most of the girls in
our group have WAHMs so most of the playdates she is the only girl.
I've noticed she doesn't seem to have problems in our unschooling
group were the kids are all older than her, also contains more
girls.
Like most children the lows on the roller coaster especially occur
during times when she's tired or hungry. This week has been
especially bad, and dh thinks maybe she's not feeling well. He's
had really bad allergies this week, and he thinks maybe she has as
well. She's rarely sick, I think only twice in 2 1/2 yrs so she
doesn't have a lot of experience in communicating when her body
doesn't feel well. I've noticed this week as well that she's been
much more, disobedient for lack of a better word. She's dumping out
things onto the floor and doing other things she hasn't done in
several months and knows is wrong.
***Books I've read...
Since this trend began at about 14 mo or so I've read any book I
could about discipline. I've read
-Dr. Sears discipline book
- LLL Without Spanking or Spoiling
-Harvey Karp's Happies Toddler (not helpful I found)
-Love and Logic for Preschooler
-Don't shoot the dog (a book our local API leader gave me about
behavor training.)
-(I've even read the What to Expect book) As well as a non-approved
LLL about 2 and 3 yo.
I haven't read Alfie Kohn, I just recently heard about him, and
have "unconditionaly love" on reserve at the library wants it is
returned.
It seems like the primary example as a problem in most of these
books is cleaning up toys. I could give a rats ass about that, I
just want my dd to stop hitting!
***Methods we've tried..
As I think I mentioned earlier it seems that most of the books talk
about Time outs, which we're finding not to be very effective, and
I'm beginning to feel they're too punitive.
We've tried giving her words or alternative things she could do in
different situations. Expressing herself using words, walking away,
playing something else, etc.
We've said things like, hitting isn't how we touch someone, this is
how, and took her hand showed her.
We leave her have friends leave when she begins to get aggressive.
Saying we can't stay if we're hurting others. This doesn't seem to
be effective. She doesn't really seem to care about having
friends. She asks occassionally for her best friend but other than
that she could care less. (My DH is kind of the same way)
It alludes me what else we've tried, but if I think of it I'll add
it.
I mentioned this problem several months back at a LLL toddler
meeting and every suggestion was something we'd tried. The final
conclusion was that she just need to grow out of it. But I can't
wait for her to grow out of it any longer.
Regardless of the cause this behavior needs to stop. She needs to
learn that even if she's tired or hungry, hitting and other
aggressive acts are never ok. Help please.
Desperate,
Misty
Melissa
quick question...if she doesn't have friends or prefer to be with
friends, then who are these kids at the playgroup? It seems to me
that if you've said that hitting will help you get out of situations
(playgroup, brushing teeth) by getting time out, she nows now how to
get out of things that she doesn't have a say in. Other's, i'm sure,
will have wise words, I don't. I do have a child that hits, she's
almost nine and has severe autism. She hits because the school taught
her that hitting gets her out of stuff. They forced her to do stuff
she wasn't ready for, and hitting was the only way to get out. Then
suddenly she gets this great time out, away from the problem and LOTS
Of attention. Doesn't matter if it's good or not.
We stay with her. All the time. Other kids have the right to not be
hurt. We physically stop her from hurting people. She does have a
communication problem, but us holding her hand is a pretty good sign
that we are not allowing her to continue the swing. We try to respect
her needs. If she doesn't want to go to the library, or the park, or
whatever, we find ways around that. We make sure she has something
she likes to do. We thank her with some frenchfries when we leave a
playgroup she didn't want to be at.
DOn't know that I''ve said anything helpful, and I'm typing while
nursing, so I'm sure there's some spelling issues, but lmk about the
friend thing
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
friends, then who are these kids at the playgroup? It seems to me
that if you've said that hitting will help you get out of situations
(playgroup, brushing teeth) by getting time out, she nows now how to
get out of things that she doesn't have a say in. Other's, i'm sure,
will have wise words, I don't. I do have a child that hits, she's
almost nine and has severe autism. She hits because the school taught
her that hitting gets her out of stuff. They forced her to do stuff
she wasn't ready for, and hitting was the only way to get out. Then
suddenly she gets this great time out, away from the problem and LOTS
Of attention. Doesn't matter if it's good or not.
We stay with her. All the time. Other kids have the right to not be
hurt. We physically stop her from hurting people. She does have a
communication problem, but us holding her hand is a pretty good sign
that we are not allowing her to continue the swing. We try to respect
her needs. If she doesn't want to go to the library, or the park, or
whatever, we find ways around that. We make sure she has something
she likes to do. We thank her with some frenchfries when we leave a
playgroup she didn't want to be at.
DOn't know that I''ve said anything helpful, and I'm typing while
nursing, so I'm sure there's some spelling issues, but lmk about the
friend thing
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On May 9, 2006, at 3:59 PM, Misty wrote:
>
> We leave her have friends leave when she begins to get aggressive.
> Saying we can't stay if we're hurting others. This doesn't seem to
> be effective. She doesn't really seem to care about having
> friends. She asks occassionally for her best friend but other than
> that she could care less. (My DH is kind of the same way)
> It alludes me what else we've tried, but if I think of it I'll add
> it.
Manisha Kher
--- Misty <misty@...> wrote:
I've noticed that a many 2.5 year olds are not ready
to have friends. They prefer to play by themselves or
with older kids/adults. You might want to consider
dropping the playgroups for a while.
about knowing language. It involves knowing yourself
well enough to know what's bugging you and then
finding the words to describe that. I have trouble
with that at the ripe old age of 41.
Manisha
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
> My 2.5 yo dd is a very aggressive hitter. I've beenI don't have any experience with children who hit. But
> dealing with
> the issue of hitting with her for over a year now,
> and I can't seem
> to get her to stop. Mainly she hits her friends her
> own age,
> usually boys, maybe b/c that's what our playgroup is
> mostly
> comprised of, and she hits her daddy often, and at
> times me.
I've noticed that a many 2.5 year olds are not ready
to have friends. They prefer to play by themselves or
with older kids/adults. You might want to consider
dropping the playgroups for a while.
>It could still be a communication thing. It's not just
> **Reasons I think why this may be happening.
> Let me say first that I do not believe this is a
> communication
> thing. DD is very bright for her age her language
> is about a year
> ahead of her age. She has never had problems being
> able to
> communicate, adn has never had temper tantrums like
> those I've seen
> or heard of kids doing out of frustration from not
> being able to
> communicate.
about knowing language. It involves knowing yourself
well enough to know what's bugging you and then
finding the words to describe that. I have trouble
with that at the ripe old age of 41.
Manisha
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Kiersten Pasciak
--- In [email protected], Manisha Kher <m_kher@...>
wrote:
but much of it is brilliant. It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult
to Discipline". I am recommending this book because the focus is on
the parent modeling behaviors.
I will try to find my posts about it from the old "Unschooling
Discussion" forum so I can cut and paste...
Kiersten
wrote:
>I have a book suggestion which does not SOUND unschooling friendly,
>
>
> --- Misty <misty@...> wrote:
>
> > My 2.5 yo dd is a very aggressive hitter. I've been
> > dealing with
> > the issue of hitting with her for over a year now,
> > and I can't seem
> > to get her to stop. Mainly she hits her friends her
> > own age,
> > usually boys, maybe b/c that's what our playgroup is
> > mostly
> > comprised of, and she hits her daddy often, and at
> > times me.
but much of it is brilliant. It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult
to Discipline". I am recommending this book because the focus is on
the parent modeling behaviors.
I will try to find my posts about it from the old "Unschooling
Discussion" forum so I can cut and paste...
Kiersten
[email protected]
I don't agree with the idea that the 2 year old is vindictive. Don't let
others plant that kind of seed in your head about your child. I have a 2.5 year
old, I baby sit another 2.5 year old and I just let go of a 2.5 year old
foster baby. These three all hit when they get frustrated or mistreated. It's
normal, for both sexes. I would say my oldest daughter (now 9) was never a hitter
but I may have forgotten which is a good sign. It a temporary phase.
This too shall pass so try not to let others label your child a manipulative,
vindictive hitter. If you have to warn another mom about her hitting and
your daughter is within hearing distance I would say something to the effect of:
'She's been trying out hitting and is still learning how much it hurts.'
That way everyone can keep a close eye on the little ones and intervene if they
see frustration building or any potential hitting triggers.
Good luck and be glad she isn't biting. Tell those other moms that 2.5 year
olds aren't supposed to know how to handle their emotions so not to expect
your "baby" to be able to.
Robin in MA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
others plant that kind of seed in your head about your child. I have a 2.5 year
old, I baby sit another 2.5 year old and I just let go of a 2.5 year old
foster baby. These three all hit when they get frustrated or mistreated. It's
normal, for both sexes. I would say my oldest daughter (now 9) was never a hitter
but I may have forgotten which is a good sign. It a temporary phase.
This too shall pass so try not to let others label your child a manipulative,
vindictive hitter. If you have to warn another mom about her hitting and
your daughter is within hearing distance I would say something to the effect of:
'She's been trying out hitting and is still learning how much it hurts.'
That way everyone can keep a close eye on the little ones and intervene if they
see frustration building or any potential hitting triggers.
Good luck and be glad she isn't biting. Tell those other moms that 2.5 year
olds aren't supposed to know how to handle their emotions so not to expect
your "baby" to be able to.
Robin in MA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marji
I think it would probably be very helpful for you to be very involved
or at least be very close by whenever she is with other kids. That
way, you can see potential triggers and head them off with
distraction and other things before she gets to hitting.
Also, ask yourself is she could be hungry or have low blood sugar
when these things happen. Sometimes a healthy snack is all a kid
needs to feel right.
I agree very much with the writer who said to be careful about
labeling your daughter "vindictive," etc. Even though she's
"advanced" in her communication skills, I still think this probably
falls under that heading. Really, everything is about
communication! She's trying to tell you something, and she either
hasn't found words for it, or she has found that this aggressive
behavior has served her better than being verbal has (it gets your
attention or whatever other payoff she's seeking**). It may be that
she wants you to be more involved when there are other kids around or
that she wants to have more of a say in what happens to her next (for
example, brushing teeth).
Whatever it is, try to banish the idea that malice is her motivation,
even though that's what it looks like to you. Sheer malice is
rarely (if ever) a kid's M.O. When kids don't feel right, they
don't behave right. Something is not sitting well with her, and your
job is to find out what it is and help her. To this end, the more
you can see yourself as her partner or helper, the better you will be
able to move past this thing and get to another place with her, and
the extra benefit is continually improving the level of trust between you.
If you haven't read it already, consider checking out "How to Talk So
Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk." It's really helpful
in the communication area, and it's great in helping people move away
from the crime-punishment cycle (like time-outs) that parents and
children can get trapped in. One of the last chapters is an
excellent piece on labeling, and the whole book is worth it for that
chapter alone, in my opinion!
I hope this helps!!
Marji, mom to a dynamite 11-year-old boy who's a real sweetie-pie
** P.S. Still, I would not see that as being manipulative for
manipulation's sake any more than I would see talking or writing a
letter as being manipulative for manipulation's sake -- it's strictly
communication. If she has discovered that smacking her friend in the
face is the most effective way of getting her point across, well,
that's what any reasonable person would do: the most expeditious
method is the one we go for. That's pretty intelligent,
really. Your job is to help her find a truly better way!
At 16:59 5/9/2006, Misty wrote:
or at least be very close by whenever she is with other kids. That
way, you can see potential triggers and head them off with
distraction and other things before she gets to hitting.
Also, ask yourself is she could be hungry or have low blood sugar
when these things happen. Sometimes a healthy snack is all a kid
needs to feel right.
I agree very much with the writer who said to be careful about
labeling your daughter "vindictive," etc. Even though she's
"advanced" in her communication skills, I still think this probably
falls under that heading. Really, everything is about
communication! She's trying to tell you something, and she either
hasn't found words for it, or she has found that this aggressive
behavior has served her better than being verbal has (it gets your
attention or whatever other payoff she's seeking**). It may be that
she wants you to be more involved when there are other kids around or
that she wants to have more of a say in what happens to her next (for
example, brushing teeth).
Whatever it is, try to banish the idea that malice is her motivation,
even though that's what it looks like to you. Sheer malice is
rarely (if ever) a kid's M.O. When kids don't feel right, they
don't behave right. Something is not sitting well with her, and your
job is to find out what it is and help her. To this end, the more
you can see yourself as her partner or helper, the better you will be
able to move past this thing and get to another place with her, and
the extra benefit is continually improving the level of trust between you.
If you haven't read it already, consider checking out "How to Talk So
Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk." It's really helpful
in the communication area, and it's great in helping people move away
from the crime-punishment cycle (like time-outs) that parents and
children can get trapped in. One of the last chapters is an
excellent piece on labeling, and the whole book is worth it for that
chapter alone, in my opinion!
I hope this helps!!
Marji, mom to a dynamite 11-year-old boy who's a real sweetie-pie
** P.S. Still, I would not see that as being manipulative for
manipulation's sake any more than I would see talking or writing a
letter as being manipulative for manipulation's sake -- it's strictly
communication. If she has discovered that smacking her friend in the
face is the most effective way of getting her point across, well,
that's what any reasonable person would do: the most expeditious
method is the one we go for. That's pretty intelligent,
really. Your job is to help her find a truly better way!
At 16:59 5/9/2006, Misty wrote:
>My 2.5 yo dd is a very aggressive hitter....[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kiersten Pasciak
This is a partial discussion from about a year ago.
I took out the names of the other moms.
I wasn't sure how to get their permission to repost...
Short answer for the hitting:
Tell her how you DO want to be treated.
"Daddy is not for hitting, if you are angry, you can say "Daddy, I'm
mad" or you can stomp your feet or hit this pillow, etc.
"Hitting hurts, you can say "no thank you" or "I'm not ready yet"
When the scene is over, brainstorm for solutions WITH her. "We don't
like being hit, what do you think we could do instead when you get
mad?" Come up with tons of ideas. Try them out! Counting out loud
and slow breathing sometimes helps, a hug sometimes helps, maybe
a "secret" signal that lightens things up- I used to tickle Jacob's
palm. Now, I will often try to infuse things with humor. Get away
from the scene. Be active. Play with dough. Draw wildly with crayons
or "stab" the paper. Get a snack. Physically intervene, though, not
only to protect the other person, but to facilitate moving toward
something else.
The book I am recommending is also against time-outs and goes into
why they are not helpful and can actually make things worse.
Anyway..........the old stuff
before. Any comments on what made you like them? Other book/author
recommendations?
Thanks,
<<<<<<<<<
Emile,
I used to recommend those 2...
I thought they were a good starting point because they focused on
seeing things from your child's point of view.
I learned a lot of language that was more respectful and over time,
it did become second nature to treat my children with more respect.
It wasn't just words!
I have gone on to read other books that I find more useful in terms
of unschooling, but I still think that they were a good place for me
to start.
In terms of recommendations, I second all the Kohn, Holt, and Gatto
books.
I have recently read another book which has given me more
perspective and more specific tools for my OWN behavior. It is
written with the idea that we can't teach that which we do not know.
It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey.
I don't agree with everything she has to say, but the skills and
change in mindset are top notch.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/0060007753/qid=1123189948/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9559032-5273555?
v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Kiersten
------------------------------
I was going to suggest the Becky Bailey book Easy to Love, Difficult
to
Discipline as well. One idea from her that we have really integrated
is
that of attributing a positive intention to a child's behavior even
if
the behavior is problematic, and expressing that to the child. So,
for
instance, if my older son grabs a toy away from my toddler, saying,
"You wanted to make sure you got to play with that toy as much as you
wanted to," or if he grabs a cookie off somebody else's plate, "wow,
you are really enjoying those cookies!" You can go on from there with
whatever "discipline" or problem-solving approach feels right to
you--we usually focus on alternative strategies for getting that need
met--but taking the attitude that there is some positive and
appropriate motivation behind the behavior is good for the parent and
the child as well. (Think about what a different message that sends
than an implicit or explicit characterization of the child
as "greedy"
or "grabby" or "selfish."
We also like Bailey's assertion, as Kiersten mentioned, that you
can't
teach what you don't know--another way to think about it is that you
can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself
first.
This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors,
and
in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids
and
another one for adults.
----------------------------------------------
I agree that a great deal of the material (as well as the title) is
not ideal for unschooling. The title, in fact, doesn't seem to fit
the book at all and probably hurts her sales.
As background- I found the book being discussed on
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/ when looking for advice for a
Dobson follower. She was only willing to read Christian authors. I
was not looking to "discipline" my kids. I was, however, intrigued
by the discussion.
I guess I should list more specifics about why I DID like the book.
Some of these ideas may sound obvious to you, but it came as a shock
to me to hear things spelled out so simply. The family environment I
was raised in did nothing to help me learn these skills...
These are the 7 "attitude shifts" she discusses and what I thought
about them.
Attitude shift 1: Harnessing the Power of Perception (no one can
make you angry without your permission)
Reason: to own your own upset
Notice how your thoughts create your feelings. when you feel angry,
overwhelmed or anxious, check to see what you are thinking, where is
your mind directed?
How often do you use blaming language (You are making me so _____)?
When you blame others, you are giving up your control (of yourself).
I caught myself using blaming language more often than I expected
and have been working hard to own my feelings and accept them.
Strangely, I could accept my kids having big feelings, but was
punishing myself whenever I got overwhelmed by similar emotions.
Attitude Shift 2: Harnessing the Power of Attention
Reason: what you focus on you get more of
Pay Attention to your focus. Are you focusing on what you want or on
what you dont want?" When you are upset, it is almost always because
you are focusing on what you DO NOT want!
I am constantly trying to frame things in terms of what I DO want
now. I hadn't realized how often I said "I can't", "I don't know
how", "I don't want this", etc. I was priming myself to feel BAD. It
is hard for me sometimes to even come up with a positive statement
when I am getting overwhelmed. I am working so hard to pay attention
and make this change. It does work. Changing what I focus on is
changing my attitude and my actions. I feel like I can set a more
positive example for my kids now.
Attitude Shift 3: Harnessing the Power of Free Will
Reason: The only person you can make change is yourself
Change your "shoulds" to "coulds"; Then make a choice and live with
it. Instead of saying I "should" go to the store or I "should" write
those thank-you cards, say I "could" do _______, and then choose. It
is free will. YOU have the right to choose what to do.
Allow others to have their own thoughts and feelings. Pay attention
to what you feel when people disagree with you. (Most of us feel
threatened).
I lived in a world of "shoulds"- guilt self-imposed that I put at
the feet of my mother or grandmother. I willingly felt bad for not
doing what "they" wanted. I feel so much more powerful and in
control since I have been owning my actions. Many times I wouldn't
complete a task because it became this huge albatross of obligation
and sucked away any of my desire to do it. I have felt more
independent and strong since I have been choosing my actions instead
of trying to make other people happy at my own expense.
Attitude Shift 4: Harnessing the Power of unity
Reason: to focus on connecting instead of trying to be special
Take five minutes or more, daily and "just be" with each of your
children. Put aside any agenda, and simply enjoy their company.
This one wasn't too powerful for me, but I am with them almost 24/7,
so 5 minutes sounds ridiculous.
Attitude Shift 5: Harnessing the Power of Love
Reason: to see the best in one another
Wish People Well. Do this silently from your heart when you are
standing in lines, driving, or passing people as you walk. Give this
gift to everyone you see. Notice how you feel when you do this.
Begin each day being grateful for at least three things. Before you
go to bed, tell all your family members how thankful you are for
their presence in your life. Notice what this does for your energy
level.
This is where the idea of attributing the best possible intentions
to a child was covered. I think I do pretty well with this one.
Attitude Shift 6: Harnessing the power of Acceptance
Reason: this moment is as it is
This was a big one. She talked about not making blanket statements
like "we don't hit in this house" after someone has just hit. You
deny the present by making such statements. Accept what is, AS IT IS!
Make choices based on what IS.
I often fall back on how things "should" be. I was raised in a very
punishment/reward centered home and learned that if I did A, then
B "should" happen. I have found myself dissapointed a great deal
when what I expected and wanted didn't happen. I am working on
accepting things as they are.
"Practice being peaceful in the moment by noticing things and
describing what you see, without judgements. Notice the weather,
plants outdoors, shadows, smells and sounds."
"Add a ritual to your childs bedtime routine that involves saying
goodnight to her body parts. for example, Im going to say goodnight
to your ears (touch the ears) your chin, elbows....."
This has helped me be more present and focus on just enjoying my
kids and making up our own special time at night instead of focusing
on trying to get them to sleep as fast as possible. As a side
benefit, we are all happier and they do fall asleep more easily. (I
am sure they felt my fatigue and desire for them to sleep before and
I was probably noticibly "going through the motions" My kids are 2
and 3 1/2, so I do help them wind down at night (when they are ready)
Attitude Shift 7: Harnessing the Power of Attention
Reason: Conflict offers an opportunity to teach
Whenever conflict arises, breathe deeply and remind
yourself "conflict is an opportunity to teach and learn"
Focus on Responding to conflict rather than trying to eliminate it.
THIS is probably the most important thing I could have read!
My kids are only 18 months apart and we have conflicts fairly
regularly. I was raised in a family where my main objective was to
avoid conflict at all cost. It is a scary place for me to be
emotionally and I was trying to get my kids to "just get along" and
not seeing the benefit to all of us in their inherent struggles.
Now I am working on handling my emotions and helping them find ways
to get what they want. They seem to be better at it than me :)
I know this was a super long post, but I though maybe more info.
would help show WHAT, in particular, I liked about the book. I am
still early in this unschooling journey and most of my time is spent
becoming a better person for myself and hopfully making some of
these ideas second nature for my kids.
If these ideas are all obvious to you, be GLAD!
I have been changing a great deal since reading this book because it
just wasn't obvious to me.
Kiersten
I took out the names of the other moms.
I wasn't sure how to get their permission to repost...
Short answer for the hitting:
Tell her how you DO want to be treated.
"Daddy is not for hitting, if you are angry, you can say "Daddy, I'm
mad" or you can stomp your feet or hit this pillow, etc.
"Hitting hurts, you can say "no thank you" or "I'm not ready yet"
When the scene is over, brainstorm for solutions WITH her. "We don't
like being hit, what do you think we could do instead when you get
mad?" Come up with tons of ideas. Try them out! Counting out loud
and slow breathing sometimes helps, a hug sometimes helps, maybe
a "secret" signal that lightens things up- I used to tickle Jacob's
palm. Now, I will often try to infuse things with humor. Get away
from the scene. Be active. Play with dough. Draw wildly with crayons
or "stab" the paper. Get a snack. Physically intervene, though, not
only to protect the other person, but to facilitate moving toward
something else.
The book I am recommending is also against time-outs and goes into
why they are not helpful and can actually make things worse.
Anyway..........the old stuff
>>>>> I've seen people recommend "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen &Listen So Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry" on the list
before. Any comments on what made you like them? Other book/author
recommendations?
Thanks,
<<<<<<<<<
Emile,
I used to recommend those 2...
I thought they were a good starting point because they focused on
seeing things from your child's point of view.
I learned a lot of language that was more respectful and over time,
it did become second nature to treat my children with more respect.
It wasn't just words!
I have gone on to read other books that I find more useful in terms
of unschooling, but I still think that they were a good place for me
to start.
In terms of recommendations, I second all the Kohn, Holt, and Gatto
books.
I have recently read another book which has given me more
perspective and more specific tools for my OWN behavior. It is
written with the idea that we can't teach that which we do not know.
It is called "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" by Becky Bailey.
I don't agree with everything she has to say, but the skills and
change in mindset are top notch.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/0060007753/qid=1123189948/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9559032-5273555?
v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Kiersten
------------------------------
I was going to suggest the Becky Bailey book Easy to Love, Difficult
to
Discipline as well. One idea from her that we have really integrated
is
that of attributing a positive intention to a child's behavior even
if
the behavior is problematic, and expressing that to the child. So,
for
instance, if my older son grabs a toy away from my toddler, saying,
"You wanted to make sure you got to play with that toy as much as you
wanted to," or if he grabs a cookie off somebody else's plate, "wow,
you are really enjoying those cookies!" You can go on from there with
whatever "discipline" or problem-solving approach feels right to
you--we usually focus on alternative strategies for getting that need
met--but taking the attitude that there is some positive and
appropriate motivation behind the behavior is good for the parent and
the child as well. (Think about what a different message that sends
than an implicit or explicit characterization of the child
as "greedy"
or "grabby" or "selfish."
We also like Bailey's assertion, as Kiersten mentioned, that you
can't
teach what you don't know--another way to think about it is that you
can't expect a child to rise to standards of behavior you don't meet
for yourself. Bailey would say, you have to discipline yourself
first.
This has helped my partner and me in looking at our own behaviors,
and
in developing expectations of behaviors and treatments that really
apply to the whole family, not with one (higher) standard for kids
and
another one for adults.
----------------------------------------------
I agree that a great deal of the material (as well as the title) is
not ideal for unschooling. The title, in fact, doesn't seem to fit
the book at all and probably hurts her sales.
As background- I found the book being discussed on
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/ when looking for advice for a
Dobson follower. She was only willing to read Christian authors. I
was not looking to "discipline" my kids. I was, however, intrigued
by the discussion.
I guess I should list more specifics about why I DID like the book.
Some of these ideas may sound obvious to you, but it came as a shock
to me to hear things spelled out so simply. The family environment I
was raised in did nothing to help me learn these skills...
These are the 7 "attitude shifts" she discusses and what I thought
about them.
Attitude shift 1: Harnessing the Power of Perception (no one can
make you angry without your permission)
Reason: to own your own upset
Notice how your thoughts create your feelings. when you feel angry,
overwhelmed or anxious, check to see what you are thinking, where is
your mind directed?
How often do you use blaming language (You are making me so _____)?
When you blame others, you are giving up your control (of yourself).
I caught myself using blaming language more often than I expected
and have been working hard to own my feelings and accept them.
Strangely, I could accept my kids having big feelings, but was
punishing myself whenever I got overwhelmed by similar emotions.
Attitude Shift 2: Harnessing the Power of Attention
Reason: what you focus on you get more of
Pay Attention to your focus. Are you focusing on what you want or on
what you dont want?" When you are upset, it is almost always because
you are focusing on what you DO NOT want!
I am constantly trying to frame things in terms of what I DO want
now. I hadn't realized how often I said "I can't", "I don't know
how", "I don't want this", etc. I was priming myself to feel BAD. It
is hard for me sometimes to even come up with a positive statement
when I am getting overwhelmed. I am working so hard to pay attention
and make this change. It does work. Changing what I focus on is
changing my attitude and my actions. I feel like I can set a more
positive example for my kids now.
Attitude Shift 3: Harnessing the Power of Free Will
Reason: The only person you can make change is yourself
Change your "shoulds" to "coulds"; Then make a choice and live with
it. Instead of saying I "should" go to the store or I "should" write
those thank-you cards, say I "could" do _______, and then choose. It
is free will. YOU have the right to choose what to do.
Allow others to have their own thoughts and feelings. Pay attention
to what you feel when people disagree with you. (Most of us feel
threatened).
I lived in a world of "shoulds"- guilt self-imposed that I put at
the feet of my mother or grandmother. I willingly felt bad for not
doing what "they" wanted. I feel so much more powerful and in
control since I have been owning my actions. Many times I wouldn't
complete a task because it became this huge albatross of obligation
and sucked away any of my desire to do it. I have felt more
independent and strong since I have been choosing my actions instead
of trying to make other people happy at my own expense.
Attitude Shift 4: Harnessing the Power of unity
Reason: to focus on connecting instead of trying to be special
Take five minutes or more, daily and "just be" with each of your
children. Put aside any agenda, and simply enjoy their company.
This one wasn't too powerful for me, but I am with them almost 24/7,
so 5 minutes sounds ridiculous.
Attitude Shift 5: Harnessing the Power of Love
Reason: to see the best in one another
Wish People Well. Do this silently from your heart when you are
standing in lines, driving, or passing people as you walk. Give this
gift to everyone you see. Notice how you feel when you do this.
Begin each day being grateful for at least three things. Before you
go to bed, tell all your family members how thankful you are for
their presence in your life. Notice what this does for your energy
level.
This is where the idea of attributing the best possible intentions
to a child was covered. I think I do pretty well with this one.
Attitude Shift 6: Harnessing the power of Acceptance
Reason: this moment is as it is
This was a big one. She talked about not making blanket statements
like "we don't hit in this house" after someone has just hit. You
deny the present by making such statements. Accept what is, AS IT IS!
Make choices based on what IS.
I often fall back on how things "should" be. I was raised in a very
punishment/reward centered home and learned that if I did A, then
B "should" happen. I have found myself dissapointed a great deal
when what I expected and wanted didn't happen. I am working on
accepting things as they are.
"Practice being peaceful in the moment by noticing things and
describing what you see, without judgements. Notice the weather,
plants outdoors, shadows, smells and sounds."
"Add a ritual to your childs bedtime routine that involves saying
goodnight to her body parts. for example, Im going to say goodnight
to your ears (touch the ears) your chin, elbows....."
This has helped me be more present and focus on just enjoying my
kids and making up our own special time at night instead of focusing
on trying to get them to sleep as fast as possible. As a side
benefit, we are all happier and they do fall asleep more easily. (I
am sure they felt my fatigue and desire for them to sleep before and
I was probably noticibly "going through the motions" My kids are 2
and 3 1/2, so I do help them wind down at night (when they are ready)
Attitude Shift 7: Harnessing the Power of Attention
Reason: Conflict offers an opportunity to teach
Whenever conflict arises, breathe deeply and remind
yourself "conflict is an opportunity to teach and learn"
Focus on Responding to conflict rather than trying to eliminate it.
THIS is probably the most important thing I could have read!
My kids are only 18 months apart and we have conflicts fairly
regularly. I was raised in a family where my main objective was to
avoid conflict at all cost. It is a scary place for me to be
emotionally and I was trying to get my kids to "just get along" and
not seeing the benefit to all of us in their inherent struggles.
Now I am working on handling my emotions and helping them find ways
to get what they want. They seem to be better at it than me :)
I know this was a super long post, but I though maybe more info.
would help show WHAT, in particular, I liked about the book. I am
still early in this unschooling journey and most of my time is spent
becoming a better person for myself and hopfully making some of
these ideas second nature for my kids.
If these ideas are all obvious to you, be GLAD!
I have been changing a great deal since reading this book because it
just wasn't obvious to me.
Kiersten
clinstrom5
Hi Misty- AS the mom of a child who often on the receiving end of
hitting by a friend I commend you for recognizing it and trying to do
something about it. Once my son was hit so hard by my friend's dd
that she cried because it hurt her hand and then my friend looked at
me with a straight face and said "well I'd cry too if my hand hurt
from hitting someone." It was then I walked out and didn't play with
her and her dd for a loooong while.
Anyway, this probably won't be the total answer but maybe another
tool to help. When my toddlers were violent for whatever reason to
another child I always comforted and paid A LOT of attention to that
other child very obviously in front of my toddler. And when my very
verbal children wanted attention from me because they didn't like
that I was comforting the injured party I looked at them and
said "But you treated so and so badly and you hurt them and I want
them to feel better. I want you to help me but if you don't want to
then please sit down and be quiet." Sometimes they became angry and
had a tantrum but I still stood my ground and after a while the
behavior ceased and they even learned to not only comfort the child
they hurt but wanted to comfort any upset child. They are still like
this which is a joy for me. Now maybe it was due to age and maturity
or maybe it was my method or a combination. But hey, it's pretty
easy and free so maybe it's worth a try.
Good luck to you. Let us know how it turns out.
Kristi in IA
hitting by a friend I commend you for recognizing it and trying to do
something about it. Once my son was hit so hard by my friend's dd
that she cried because it hurt her hand and then my friend looked at
me with a straight face and said "well I'd cry too if my hand hurt
from hitting someone." It was then I walked out and didn't play with
her and her dd for a loooong while.
Anyway, this probably won't be the total answer but maybe another
tool to help. When my toddlers were violent for whatever reason to
another child I always comforted and paid A LOT of attention to that
other child very obviously in front of my toddler. And when my very
verbal children wanted attention from me because they didn't like
that I was comforting the injured party I looked at them and
said "But you treated so and so badly and you hurt them and I want
them to feel better. I want you to help me but if you don't want to
then please sit down and be quiet." Sometimes they became angry and
had a tantrum but I still stood my ground and after a while the
behavior ceased and they even learned to not only comfort the child
they hurt but wanted to comfort any upset child. They are still like
this which is a joy for me. Now maybe it was due to age and maturity
or maybe it was my method or a combination. But hey, it's pretty
easy and free so maybe it's worth a try.
Good luck to you. Let us know how it turns out.
Kristi in IA
Kiersten Pasciak
This was the original "no time-out" post I read.
We never did do time-out, but this logic appealed to me.
If someone put me in a place I didn't want to be by force or
coersion, would I want to be helpful? Would I feel loved or
controlled? I have never "sent" my kids to the comfort corner, but I
do take them with me to their rooms or a comfy chair or away from
the group (if we are in public) and work to help them feel better
and then make ammends if something has happened. I say "I'm sorry"
to the parents and the kid if necessary and offer help. Sometimes my
kids do, sometimes not.
Kiersten
----------------------------
But why not time outs?
It's actually a good question when the AAP has advocated for Time
Outs as a preferred alternative to corporal punishment. In truth,
if the choice is between a spanking and a time out, I'd suggest the
time out. But that's not the only choice! And both are rooted in a
punitive mindset. A punishment is something that is added on to
teaching to cause the child to feel bad with the underlying belief
that only by feeling bad can they learn. But, in fact, they learn
lots of things without feeling bad. They learn to walk and talk and
spell their own name without requiring punishment, so the argument
that they can't learn if they don't feel bad is completely
unfounded. In fact, a basic belief in GBD and PD is that people who
feel good act good while people who feel bad act bad. So when a
child is acting bad it is illogical to think that making them feel
worse will somehow get them to act better.
Of course I'm speaking of classic time outs here. Or, thanks to
Supernanny, what is sometimes referred to as a naughty place. The
way this works is that a child is separated from the family and
ignored for a time that is equal to 1 minute per age of the child.
The child is told that they are bad/naughty/misbehaving/etc and the
parent will get them when the time is up. They are instructed
to "think about" what they have done wrong. Supernanny insists on
an apology at the end .
There are several punitive aspects to this.
While Supernanny allows for young children to be viewable by the
family, traditional time outs, and her Naughty Room for older
children, require that the child be isolated away from the family
during the time out. This gives the clear message to a child that
acceptance in the family is conditional upon their behavior. If it
is not acceptable they are rejected; if it is acceptable, they are
accepted. For many children this translates into a message of
conditional love. Also, while introverted children may respond okay
to forced isolation, for many extroverted children this is traumatic.
The one-minute-per year is an arbitrary time. There is no guarantee
that a child will be calmed down in that time, and other children
will calm down long before that time is over.
When an apology is required to leave the time out or naughty place
this is a forced apology and not a true indicator of a child's
remorse. They are taught that an apology is a negotiating tool and
not taught empathy or remorse.
In the place of classic time outs there are many GBD tools that
provide actual teaching and do not have the punitive aspects. GBD
is an entire paradigm shift. Children are not viewed as "naughty".
Parents and children aren't in battles that must be won. Since
people who feel good act good, one goal of GBD is to help people
feel good. Now, happy isn't the only acceptable emotion, and
there's lots of opportunity to use tools like reflecting feelings.
The way that people learn how to feel good is to be equipped with
tools that they can use to exercise self control in difficult
situations. Taking a break, or what is sometimes referred to as
a "Positive time out" is one way to do that. As a means for
providing this, I recommend a Comfort Corner.
A Comfort Corner is a space in the common area of a home that is set
up to be a retreat for a child (or an adult). It's a place they can
go to step out of a situation, take a break, regroup. There are
things there that provide them with comfort--stuffed animals,
pillows, blankets, music, books, whatever will bless your child.
Let them help design it if you want. It can be as simple as a chair
with a blanket, or as complex as a room under the stairs full of
options. some will argue that this is rewarding poor behavior, but
if you aren't actively high fiving and saying "awesome" about their
poor behavior then you aren't rewarding or encouraging it. I've
never thanked my child for yelling or said that if they did I'd give
them ice cream One illustration I like to use, to make it relevant
for adults, is if I come over and you've been having a bad day and
not behaving well (maybe grousing or yelling at the kids, not doing
your responsibilities around the house, etc) which would you prefer
me to do:
1) "I'm disgusted at the way you've been behaving today. Your
children deserve better than this. What kind of a mother do you
think you are? You need to go into your room for 30 minutes (1
minute per year ) and really think about how bad you are. I will
come and get you in 1/2 hour and then I will be nice to you."
or
2) "Wow, you're having a bad day. How about I watch the kids for a
bit and you go get a cup of coffee and take a break Come back
when you're feeling better and if you want to talk about what's
going on we can do it then."
When a child is sent to the Comfort Corner the only rule is that you
don't talk about why they were sent when they are there, and they
may come out when they are ready to rejoin the family and be
cooperative.
For older children there may be a need for a tool called "you hit,
you sit". When children get aggressive and violent it's appropriate
to stop their bodies and give them a chance to get their brain back
in control. If you have a Comfort Corner they can be sent there, or
even just sitting on the couch until they are ready to be calm in
their play and make amends.
I do teach children how to apologize, including the words ,"I'm
sorry", but more importantly the words, "Will you forgive me?" And
I teach all of my children how to forgive--because forgiveness is
about casting off the burden of unforgiveness and going on with your
life at peace with others. When you wrong someone you owe them a
debt. Making amends is about taking responsibility and doing what
you can to pay that debt. We can never undo our actions, but making
an effort to repay the debt we owe someone teaches personal
responsibility for our actions, and is much more important than the
ability to say empty "I'm sorry"s. Saying "I'm sorry" might be part
of making amends. There may also be a need to offer a gentle touch
to make amends for a violent one, to return a toy and offer an
additional one where a toy was taken, to do a kind act where
unkindness was done. I have the offending child ask the offended
child what kind thing they can do to help them feel better.
Mostly, GBD is about working to proactively prevent the situations
that would result in time outs. By knowing our children well enough
to structure situations to set them up for success. Using the 5
Steps makes instructions non-optional and has built in "help" if the
child is not able to accomplish something themselves. Ultimately,
rather than an adversarial relationship, GBD equips parents to be
the coaches on the family team. There may be a time during a
sporting event where someone is pulled off the field to take a
Positive Time Out, or have a break, regain their cool and get ready
to go back on the field. Something is very broken on the team when
someone is thrown from the game in a negative time out. When you
view your family as a team it's much easier to see that when one
person fails, we all fail, but when one person succeeds, we all
succeed. Success for all is the goal.
We never did do time-out, but this logic appealed to me.
If someone put me in a place I didn't want to be by force or
coersion, would I want to be helpful? Would I feel loved or
controlled? I have never "sent" my kids to the comfort corner, but I
do take them with me to their rooms or a comfy chair or away from
the group (if we are in public) and work to help them feel better
and then make ammends if something has happened. I say "I'm sorry"
to the parents and the kid if necessary and offer help. Sometimes my
kids do, sometimes not.
Kiersten
----------------------------
But why not time outs?
It's actually a good question when the AAP has advocated for Time
Outs as a preferred alternative to corporal punishment. In truth,
if the choice is between a spanking and a time out, I'd suggest the
time out. But that's not the only choice! And both are rooted in a
punitive mindset. A punishment is something that is added on to
teaching to cause the child to feel bad with the underlying belief
that only by feeling bad can they learn. But, in fact, they learn
lots of things without feeling bad. They learn to walk and talk and
spell their own name without requiring punishment, so the argument
that they can't learn if they don't feel bad is completely
unfounded. In fact, a basic belief in GBD and PD is that people who
feel good act good while people who feel bad act bad. So when a
child is acting bad it is illogical to think that making them feel
worse will somehow get them to act better.
Of course I'm speaking of classic time outs here. Or, thanks to
Supernanny, what is sometimes referred to as a naughty place. The
way this works is that a child is separated from the family and
ignored for a time that is equal to 1 minute per age of the child.
The child is told that they are bad/naughty/misbehaving/etc and the
parent will get them when the time is up. They are instructed
to "think about" what they have done wrong. Supernanny insists on
an apology at the end .
There are several punitive aspects to this.
While Supernanny allows for young children to be viewable by the
family, traditional time outs, and her Naughty Room for older
children, require that the child be isolated away from the family
during the time out. This gives the clear message to a child that
acceptance in the family is conditional upon their behavior. If it
is not acceptable they are rejected; if it is acceptable, they are
accepted. For many children this translates into a message of
conditional love. Also, while introverted children may respond okay
to forced isolation, for many extroverted children this is traumatic.
The one-minute-per year is an arbitrary time. There is no guarantee
that a child will be calmed down in that time, and other children
will calm down long before that time is over.
When an apology is required to leave the time out or naughty place
this is a forced apology and not a true indicator of a child's
remorse. They are taught that an apology is a negotiating tool and
not taught empathy or remorse.
In the place of classic time outs there are many GBD tools that
provide actual teaching and do not have the punitive aspects. GBD
is an entire paradigm shift. Children are not viewed as "naughty".
Parents and children aren't in battles that must be won. Since
people who feel good act good, one goal of GBD is to help people
feel good. Now, happy isn't the only acceptable emotion, and
there's lots of opportunity to use tools like reflecting feelings.
The way that people learn how to feel good is to be equipped with
tools that they can use to exercise self control in difficult
situations. Taking a break, or what is sometimes referred to as
a "Positive time out" is one way to do that. As a means for
providing this, I recommend a Comfort Corner.
A Comfort Corner is a space in the common area of a home that is set
up to be a retreat for a child (or an adult). It's a place they can
go to step out of a situation, take a break, regroup. There are
things there that provide them with comfort--stuffed animals,
pillows, blankets, music, books, whatever will bless your child.
Let them help design it if you want. It can be as simple as a chair
with a blanket, or as complex as a room under the stairs full of
options. some will argue that this is rewarding poor behavior, but
if you aren't actively high fiving and saying "awesome" about their
poor behavior then you aren't rewarding or encouraging it. I've
never thanked my child for yelling or said that if they did I'd give
them ice cream One illustration I like to use, to make it relevant
for adults, is if I come over and you've been having a bad day and
not behaving well (maybe grousing or yelling at the kids, not doing
your responsibilities around the house, etc) which would you prefer
me to do:
1) "I'm disgusted at the way you've been behaving today. Your
children deserve better than this. What kind of a mother do you
think you are? You need to go into your room for 30 minutes (1
minute per year ) and really think about how bad you are. I will
come and get you in 1/2 hour and then I will be nice to you."
or
2) "Wow, you're having a bad day. How about I watch the kids for a
bit and you go get a cup of coffee and take a break Come back
when you're feeling better and if you want to talk about what's
going on we can do it then."
When a child is sent to the Comfort Corner the only rule is that you
don't talk about why they were sent when they are there, and they
may come out when they are ready to rejoin the family and be
cooperative.
For older children there may be a need for a tool called "you hit,
you sit". When children get aggressive and violent it's appropriate
to stop their bodies and give them a chance to get their brain back
in control. If you have a Comfort Corner they can be sent there, or
even just sitting on the couch until they are ready to be calm in
their play and make amends.
I do teach children how to apologize, including the words ,"I'm
sorry", but more importantly the words, "Will you forgive me?" And
I teach all of my children how to forgive--because forgiveness is
about casting off the burden of unforgiveness and going on with your
life at peace with others. When you wrong someone you owe them a
debt. Making amends is about taking responsibility and doing what
you can to pay that debt. We can never undo our actions, but making
an effort to repay the debt we owe someone teaches personal
responsibility for our actions, and is much more important than the
ability to say empty "I'm sorry"s. Saying "I'm sorry" might be part
of making amends. There may also be a need to offer a gentle touch
to make amends for a violent one, to return a toy and offer an
additional one where a toy was taken, to do a kind act where
unkindness was done. I have the offending child ask the offended
child what kind thing they can do to help them feel better.
Mostly, GBD is about working to proactively prevent the situations
that would result in time outs. By knowing our children well enough
to structure situations to set them up for success. Using the 5
Steps makes instructions non-optional and has built in "help" if the
child is not able to accomplish something themselves. Ultimately,
rather than an adversarial relationship, GBD equips parents to be
the coaches on the family team. There may be a time during a
sporting event where someone is pulled off the field to take a
Positive Time Out, or have a break, regain their cool and get ready
to go back on the field. Something is very broken on the team when
someone is thrown from the game in a negative time out. When you
view your family as a team it's much easier to see that when one
person fails, we all fail, but when one person succeeds, we all
succeed. Success for all is the goal.
ameliegoldstein
In response to your post, Kristi, I wanted to mention that the
method
you described would not work for all children. I know that telling
my
child to be quiet and sit down when she was already frustrated
enough
to react physically would not help the situation at all; it would
cause things to really fall apart, and it would not foster a good
relationship between us either.
If a child is hitting, she is obviously angry or frustrated and she
is
not able to communicate something that she wants to say very
*loudly*.
Rather than directing your attention away from them, I would prefer
to
give my child all of the understanding and attention that I can to
validate the emotions and talk about other ways to handle the
situation once things are calm.
If the other child is hurt or upset, by all means comfort him. And
by
all means let your kid know that hitting another person is not okay.
But I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to ignore your own
child's feelings and expect them to immediately be ready to calm
down
and exhibit "good behavior". Especially at 2.5, a
very young child probably doesn't have the maturity to decide what
the right action
is in an intense situation. It will be more respectful to them if
you
help and coach them through it. If a kid is crying or having a
tantrum, he needs your time and patience more than ever!
To the originaly poster, I will try to write some more later, but I
second the suggestion that maybe your daughter isn't ready yet to
interact with kids her own age in play groups. If she could care
less
about it, then perhaps that is an indicator that she needs more time
to spend just learning and growing within the safety of her home.
Also, having a daughter who is sometimes violent, I know that I have
to be with her *all* the time. Other children and other people have
a
right to be safe, so I need to make sure I am available to help her
or
intervene in a situation just in case.
Amelie
method
you described would not work for all children. I know that telling
my
child to be quiet and sit down when she was already frustrated
enough
to react physically would not help the situation at all; it would
cause things to really fall apart, and it would not foster a good
relationship between us either.
If a child is hitting, she is obviously angry or frustrated and she
is
not able to communicate something that she wants to say very
*loudly*.
Rather than directing your attention away from them, I would prefer
to
give my child all of the understanding and attention that I can to
validate the emotions and talk about other ways to handle the
situation once things are calm.
If the other child is hurt or upset, by all means comfort him. And
by
all means let your kid know that hitting another person is not okay.
But I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to ignore your own
child's feelings and expect them to immediately be ready to calm
down
and exhibit "good behavior". Especially at 2.5, a
very young child probably doesn't have the maturity to decide what
the right action
is in an intense situation. It will be more respectful to them if
you
help and coach them through it. If a kid is crying or having a
tantrum, he needs your time and patience more than ever!
To the originaly poster, I will try to write some more later, but I
second the suggestion that maybe your daughter isn't ready yet to
interact with kids her own age in play groups. If she could care
less
about it, then perhaps that is an indicator that she needs more time
to spend just learning and growing within the safety of her home.
Also, having a daughter who is sometimes violent, I know that I have
to be with her *all* the time. Other children and other people have
a
right to be safe, so I need to make sure I am available to help her
or
intervene in a situation just in case.
Amelie
clinstrom5
Amelie- Of course it would not work for all children. Nothing works
for all children. But I do know that aside from not wanting to teach
my child that hitting meant a ton of attention from me I also wanted to
teach them how to be kind by showing them how to be kind to others.
Kristi
for all children. But I do know that aside from not wanting to teach
my child that hitting meant a ton of attention from me I also wanted to
teach them how to be kind by showing them how to be kind to others.
Kristi
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 5/9/06, Misty <misty@...> wrote:
when he gets *very* angry. Why do children hit, especially in the younger
years? Because hitting is a physical reaction to express an unspeakable
emotion. When a child is young or has difficulty expressing themselves when
they are emotionall upset, physical actions tend to take place of the words
that they can't say. Some children will melt into a puddle. Some children
will run away from the situation. Some children will run to mommy to nurse
or be soothed. And some people will act in a way that is seemingly
inappropriate. Helping to give them words is a good way to help them
eliminate the physical action. Give them the words when they are angry and
give them the words when they are not angry. Talk about it. Role play it
even. Eventually your child will learn these things on her own but it
doesn't hurt to help her along.
One thing that I have noticed is that adults do their own form of "hitting"
when they are angry. It's called cussing. Why do people cuss? Because it
shows a strong emotion like hitting does. Running off a string of
explicatives is like punching the air with anger. We have learned to
control the physical part of hitting, but the emotional part is still there,
just replaced by words. I would love to see a study if children who were
hitters grew up to be adults who cuss.
Another way to help eliminate the hitting is to consider when and where she
most hits. Does she hit mostly at playgroup? Does she truly enjoy
playgroup? When it is playgroup day is she excited, eager, and ready or do
you take her just because it is something to do? If you miss playgroup does
she express a loss or go about what she is doing? Perhaps waiting a while
on the playgroup front is what is needed. Or maybe she needs to work with
smaller groups. Have one friend over or at the most 2. If she says she
likes playgroup, find out what it is about playgroup that she enjoys. It
may be that she enjoys the park that you go to or playing with a particular
toy.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I've had 2 children who hit when they were younger. Keon still will hit
> My 2.5 yo dd is a very aggressive hitter. I've been dealing with
> the issue of hitting with her for over a year now, and I can't seem
> to get her to stop.
when he gets *very* angry. Why do children hit, especially in the younger
years? Because hitting is a physical reaction to express an unspeakable
emotion. When a child is young or has difficulty expressing themselves when
they are emotionall upset, physical actions tend to take place of the words
that they can't say. Some children will melt into a puddle. Some children
will run away from the situation. Some children will run to mommy to nurse
or be soothed. And some people will act in a way that is seemingly
inappropriate. Helping to give them words is a good way to help them
eliminate the physical action. Give them the words when they are angry and
give them the words when they are not angry. Talk about it. Role play it
even. Eventually your child will learn these things on her own but it
doesn't hurt to help her along.
One thing that I have noticed is that adults do their own form of "hitting"
when they are angry. It's called cussing. Why do people cuss? Because it
shows a strong emotion like hitting does. Running off a string of
explicatives is like punching the air with anger. We have learned to
control the physical part of hitting, but the emotional part is still there,
just replaced by words. I would love to see a study if children who were
hitters grew up to be adults who cuss.
Another way to help eliminate the hitting is to consider when and where she
most hits. Does she hit mostly at playgroup? Does she truly enjoy
playgroup? When it is playgroup day is she excited, eager, and ready or do
you take her just because it is something to do? If you miss playgroup does
she express a loss or go about what she is doing? Perhaps waiting a while
on the playgroup front is what is needed. Or maybe she needs to work with
smaller groups. Have one friend over or at the most 2. If she says she
likes playgroup, find out what it is about playgroup that she enjoys. It
may be that she enjoys the park that you go to or playing with a particular
toy.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elissa Jill Cleaveland
I would love to see a study if children who were
hitters grew up to be adults who cuss.
I wouldn't put me in that study, I was not a hitter as a child, am pretty non-confrontational and passive as an adult and cuss like a merchant marine!
Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hitters grew up to be adults who cuss.
I wouldn't put me in that study, I was not a hitter as a child, am pretty non-confrontational and passive as an adult and cuss like a merchant marine!
Elissa Jill
The music in me is a gift from the Universe.
My job is to care for it and use it well; I am its bearer, not its owner.
~Johnny Cash's Moma
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
camden
> I wouldn't put me in that study, I was not a hitter as a child, am prettyI wasn't a hitter either and like you I can cuss like crazy ....... I say
> non-confrontational and passive as an adult and cuss like a merchant
> marine!
> Elissa Jill
its because my dad was a trucker & so is dh. They taught me well ;)
Carol
ameliegoldstein
***But I do know that aside from not wanting to teach
my child that hitting meant a ton of attention from me I also wanted to
teach them how to be kind by showing them how to be kind to others.***
In our home, my presence and my attention are not rewards given for
appropriate behavior or privileges denied when my child makes poor
choices. She has a right to understanding and guidance at all times,
and I am *always* ready to be there, to intervene, to validate, to
give her the tools to make better choices. This is helpful because if
the child knows she has access to all the attention she needs just by
asking, you can trust that when hitting happens it isn't a plea for
attention.
Amelie
my child that hitting meant a ton of attention from me I also wanted to
teach them how to be kind by showing them how to be kind to others.***
In our home, my presence and my attention are not rewards given for
appropriate behavior or privileges denied when my child makes poor
choices. She has a right to understanding and guidance at all times,
and I am *always* ready to be there, to intervene, to validate, to
give her the tools to make better choices. This is helpful because if
the child knows she has access to all the attention she needs just by
asking, you can trust that when hitting happens it isn't a plea for
attention.
Amelie
John & Karen Buxcel
what is GBD and PD?
Thanks!
Karen
Thanks!
Karen
Kiersten Pasciak
Karen,
I think they mean "Grace Based Discipline" and "Positive Discipline"
(not sure about the first).
I am not a Christian, but I have read lots of thoughtful posts on that
site.
We had a few very religious moms in my old local moms' group who were
pushing some very punitive books and stumbling across that site was a
breath of fresh air.
Kiersten
--- In [email protected], John & Karen Buxcel
<buxcel@...> wrote:
I think they mean "Grace Based Discipline" and "Positive Discipline"
(not sure about the first).
I am not a Christian, but I have read lots of thoughtful posts on that
site.
We had a few very religious moms in my old local moms' group who were
pushing some very punitive books and stumbling across that site was a
breath of fresh air.
Kiersten
--- In [email protected], John & Karen Buxcel
<buxcel@...> wrote:
>
> what is GBD and PD?
>
> Thanks!
> Karen
>