drusila00

maybe this is kind of a "vent" because I am realy frusterated with my
spouse over somthing that happened this weekend, I am finaly able to
write about it with clairity as its been an emotionaly dificult week
for me.
I hate to use this list for this but I don't have any close friends
and my family is not supportive AT ALL about homeschooling and would
FREAK if I mentioned "unschooling"
so please if you can put up with me or just deleete this if its too
long & booring.

Our son has been doing good since we took him out of PS but due to
much of the happenings at PS he is working through some things
emotionaly and is seeing someone to help with that who is very good.
He is coming into puberty on top of all that and we spent last week
with him rolling his eyes at me and speaking to me as if I were just
the stupidest person ever although I have never treated him that way.
(I think this is somthing done to him at PS and he is "getting it out"
here at home finaly-- but I dont like it)
After several times of telling him that I didn't apreciate that and it
hurt my feelings and discusing with him that he would not like to be
treated that way, asking "please don't" and each time he was agreeing
that it wasnt nice and that he wouldnt like it and that he was sory
but still doing it over and over and over I of course ended up crying.
My husband who isn't quite on the same page yet with me, got very
angry (because I had my feelings hurt) and in his frustration he told
our son "no candy for a week".

The last thing I want to do is argue about this in front of our son,
or even argue about this at all but unfortunatly we have
discussed/argued (privatly) because that punishment is just well dumb
IMO. I dont like things that do not make sense to me. (I could go on
about how that makes no sense but I think you all get it)

My husband said "this unschooling this is just not working, see what
has happened because of it?"
I disagreed.
I think that because our Son has the right place and the safe
envoroment its all starting to come out (like poping a zit) and thats
a good thing.
My husband said that yes that was a posibility but felt he couldn't go
back on what he said about the candy.

while we were not an Unschooling family we hardly had hard &
fast "rules" and were way less strict than other parents I know we
would ocasionaly need to limit things or remove things from our sons
life for a while.
No more staying up late when he began having "tired" meltdowns at
school is one example, there always seemed to be a logical reasoning
for most things we limited/changed ect.

We had stopped doing that because in reality there wasnt any need to
continue with him being at home. -IMO- or at least thats what I
thought untill Mr. No candy flipped his lid. (I think that is all My
husband knows to do and he reached for that in a moment of frustration-
-yes, I know he needs better tools-)

Hormonaly I think our son is entering a phase in his life that is very
confusing and frightening for him and for us as well but especialy his
father. (my husband didnt have a father and has no clue how to be one)
I can see them begining to butt heads for "controle" sometimes (like
my husband and son both want to sit next to me on the sofa and both
pout when they can't) and I believe that our son is working out some
toxic Stuff in a safe place- which should be a good thing, but it
hurts and its messy and frightening.

I disagree with Mr. No candy on how this situation was handeled,
however I also do not want to argue with him (but I do think he is
wrong) I have made my points and shared my reasonings for our sons
behaviour recently and while my husband doesn't disagree he is still
having a hard time believing unschooling can work. he is nervious and
ready to point out how it isnt working even though I do not think the
two things (unschooling and unkindness) were related, and even though
he agreed (in retrospect) that perhaps they were not (but "might be")

I have however spoken at length with our son who agrees he is
strugeling and doesn't know what has been happening lately emotionaly
for him and we talked about moving away from restrictive things into
trust and we also discused the "protective urge" males have when they
see a female they love hurting from what someone else has said or done
among a dozen other things relating to this incident.

The best I can hope for is to be able to comunicate to my husband how
inested of jumping for things we no longer need that he should be
thinking in new ways.

There is a welth of information out there which overwhelms him I have
found a few things for him to read but If anyone has anything that
specificly talks about this type of thing I'd love to be able to let
my husband know that other men have been able to find positive ways to
get through this time with their sons and not against them.

Im tired, very tired, I hope this made sense.
thank you for your support.

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 4/26/06, drusila00 <drusila00@...> wrote:
>
>
> Our son has been doing good since we took him out of PS but due to
> much of the happenings at PS he is working through some things
> emotionaly and is seeing someone to help with that who is very good.
> (snip) My husband said "this unschooling this is just not working, see
> what
> has happened because of it?"


How long have you been out of the system? It might help your husband to
repeat the "minimum one month for every year of school rule" about
deschooling. This is true in almost all homeschooling circles, not just
unschooling!

My husband said that yes that was a posibility but felt he couldn't go
> back on what he said about the candy.


And admit that he was too harsh or out of line or possibly wrong? What does
that teach your son?


> untill Mr. No candy flipped his lid. (I think that is all My
> husband knows to do and he reached for that in a moment of frustration-
> -yes, I know he needs better tools-)


They are probably the tools his parents taught him through their parenting.
I still work with Dan on being more gentle and not snapping out arguments
from the beginning.

I disagree with Mr. No candy on how this situation was handeled,
> however I also do not want to argue with him (but I do think he is
> wrong) I have made my points and shared my reasonings for our sons
> behaviour recently and while my husband doesn't disagree he is still
> having a hard time believing unschooling can work.


Give him time. He's not going to see it overnight. And see if he will read
some of the (millions) of articles that are at Sandra Dodd's website.
Better yet, read them yourself and forward him the URL's to ones that you
think would be helpful to him. Dan can't digest pages and pages of
information, but if I send him an article here and there he will sit and
read them. I continue to "talk the talk" and slowly Dan is starting to
realize how much he loves unschooling and wishes he had had the freedoms
that his children have!

As for the unkind things your son has said, I have found that shrugging them
off works better than soaking them in. I know when my oldest daughter was
first being struck by the "puberty bug" that there were some very hurtful
things said, but because I knew that she was dealing with all these new
hormones and changes in her body that if I continued to let them effect me
it would effect our relationship. If I took them for what they were, her
verbal need to release frustrations, that we could continue having the close
and wonderful relationship that we have.






--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paige

> My husband said "this unschooling this is just not working, see what
> has happened because of it?"


LOL because I had this SAME conversation with my husband last week!
He even said pretty much that exact same thing! Our argument was
about him trying to "teach" the girls things ALL THE FREAKIN TIME! He
being the "Great God Of All Knowledge" and they could just sit at his
feet and soak up his great wisdom. I finally exploded and the Great
God Of All Knowledge got yelled at for two hours. lol
I really wish I could say something that could help, but all I can do
is commiserate with you. I guess you just have to look at it like he
is being deschooled, also, and bear with it. I have been printing
articles from some of the sites and giving them to my dh to read. I am
hoping he will come around soon. He had the audacity to ask me what
curriculum I was buying for next year. GGGRRRR. lol
In the Same Boat With You,
Paige

drusila00

--- In [email protected], "Pampered Chef Michelle"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:

> And admit that he was too harsh or out of line or possibly wrong?
What does that teach your son?

I think he felt it was more of an inconsistancy issue, saying one
thing and doing another is confusing and can lead to more problems
than following through and then doing diferently in the future (we
have been told.)

>>>>Give him time. He's not going to see it overnight. And see if
he will read some of the (millions) of articles that are at Sandra
Dodd's website.Better yet, read them yourself and forward him the
URL's to ones that you think would be helpful to him.>>>>

I do that and he reads some, I was simply hoping that someone had
somthing very specific in mind that might be helpful from the
fathers perspective.

> As for the unkind things your son has said, I have found that
shrugging themoff works better than soaking them in. I know when my
oldest daughter was first being struck by the "puberty bug" that
there were some very hurtful things said, but because I knew that
she was dealing with all these new hormones and changes in her body
that if I continued to let them effect me it would effect our
relationship. If I took them for what they were, her verbal need to
release frustrations, that we could continue having the close and
wonderful relationship that we have.>>>>>>>

thank you for that advice , I know this will be challanging for me
because I am emotionaly fragile right now myself and its hard to
keep in mind all of these things in the moment(it took a couple of
days before I could think tit all through & write clearly about
this).
Im glad to know Im not the only parent to be hurt by "the puberty
bug" and I know it will pas, (it has to right?)


> Michelle
> Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
> The Pampered Chef
> 850-474-0817
> http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
> Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

drusila00

--- In [email protected], "Paige"
<paigehughes1972@...> wrote:
LOL because I had this SAME conversation with my husband last week!
He even said pretty much that exact same thing! Our argument was
about him trying to "teach" the girls things ALL THE FREAKIN TIME!
He being the "Great God Of All Knowledge" and they could just sit at
his feet and soak up his great wisdom. I finally exploded and the
Great God Of All Knowledge got yelled at for two hours. lol
> I really wish I could say something that could help, but all I can
do is commiserate with you. I guess you just have to look at it
like he is being deschooled, also, and bear with it. I have been
printing articles from some of the sites and giving them to my dh to
read. I am hoping he will come around soon. He had the audacity to
ask me what
> curriculum I was buying for next year. GGGRRRR. lol
> In the Same Boat With You,
> Paige

Well Im sorry to hear that, My husband is actualy very flexable
about the academic area, IE not using a curriculum or "teaching". he
isnt totaly comfortable with it (he worries that self motivation
isnt enough based on what he would have done at our sons age without
being forced to 'learn' and where he might be today if he had been
unschooled--- he thinks he'd be a hobo or somthing)
anyway, he is more willing to trust that our son can and will
nearn without being pressured than he is willing to trust that
that 'learning' will aslo involve non academic things.

We are all still Deschooling, I know it will get better but
sometimes I get so frusterated and exasperated and this latest just
got under my skin in a big way.

trektheory

--- In [email protected], "drusila00"
<drusila00@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Pampered Chef Michelle"
> <pamperedmichelle@> wrote:
>
> > And admit that he was too harsh or out of line or possibly
wrong?
> What does that teach your son?
>
> I think he felt it was more of an inconsistancy issue, saying one
> thing and doing another is confusing and can lead to more problems
> than following through and then doing diferently in the future (we
> have been told.)
>

Perhaps if he looked at it as if it were him, and his boss was out
of line in some criticism or repercussion -- how would he view his
boss if he stuck with what he knew was wrong, vs how would he view
him if his boss said, Gee, I was out of line with that McGruder
contract stuff, let's see if we can hammer this out better. It's a
balancing act, isn't it?

Give yourself a hug and a break, too. It can be hard, and we women
especially have a tendency to try to take care of everyone else
first, and we always seem to come last, if at all. But you matter,
too!

Linda

Marie Pressman

Is there hope for moving from 'theatening': "I'm going to take this away if
you don't do X" and the overuse of unnatural consequences? My husband and I
have completely different parenting styles, if you can call it that. (It's
more like driving without a map and refusing to ask for directions!) He can
be all fire and brimstone sometimes because he just thinks shock and awe is
so effective but I must admit I resort to the 'no candy' method a lot and my
son sees if for what it is and shouts: Don't threaten me!" My kids are
afraid of their Dad when starts yelling. I've told him he shouldn't go
there. I ache for my kids when he gets like that but to make things just a
bit more schizophrenic, I'm a yeller too but it flows over them like water
when I'm at it. Such a crazy making behavior.

I know it's never too late but I can't help remembering a time when I was in
the middle an awful stressful time in my life and marriage. My oldest was
only three and I was in the moment of this 'just to what i want you to do'
maddness. I recall so vividly my thoughts of this child being a clean
slate and knowing I shouldn't use the words and tone I was using and I let
my emotions take over anyway. I've had to apologize more times than I ever
imagined. I cling to the thought that that's the difference between my
mother and I but that only consoles me, not my children.

We can choose to stop what we are doing. I know that. I was working it so
hard in the car last night. I pulled the car over when the kids were
fighting it the car. I was really watching myself. Trying to express love
and kindness respectfully then just as I was about to pull away my daughters
mouth kicks in for the last word and I slammed on the brake to give her the
look of the devil. The constant conflict, noise and stress of it all is
really like a noose around my neck.


My husband said that yes that was a posibility but felt he couldn't go
> back on what he said about the candy.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chotiius

--- In [email protected], "drusila00" <drusila00@...>
wrote:

> ...My husband who isn't quite on the same page yet with me, got very
> angry (because I had my feelings hurt) and in his frustration he
told
> our son "no candy for a week".

My first thought - and I see you agree that this is "dumb" is:

What in the HECK does candy have to do with disrespect of another
person?

Of all the punishments I had in my childhood, the ones I remember are
the ones that were patently, obviously unfair or irrational. Like the
time I cut my baby brother's hair (I was 5, he was 2) and was grounded
from TV for a day. I forgot of course, being 5, and when I was caught
watching TV a few hours later, I was grounded for a WEEK. Huh?

If your husband can't bring himself to admit - to your SON - that his
punishment was stupid (because I can guarantee you the boy knows how
stupid it is) it may well damage their relationship. Whereas, the
father admitting that it was an ill-considered thing, having nothing
to do with the offense at hand, and to sit down without anger and talk
about appropriate courtesy to people in general...it may strengthen
their relationship. And this is really about the two of them, not
about you (right at the moment).

My husband has been known to make some knee-jerk overstrong
punishments (and by the way, I have no problem arguing with him in
front of the kids, because I want THEM to see that I will stand up for
them in the face of something like that, as my mother never did), and
I want them to see how 'fair' fighting between adults is done. When,
as happens sometimes, I convince my husband to back down.....he goes
to the wronged child and says "I was angry, and I am still angry about
behavior X, but I was too harsh with the punishment and I was wrong
too. So we'll do this other thing instead."

It takes a really big man to get down at a child's level and say "I
was wrong too." It takes nothing of the sort to use a ham-handed fist
of authority. The trick is being able to humble one's pride; and to be
open to alternative approaches.


--angela

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Pressman <pressmanm@...>

>>>>>I recall so vividly my thoughts of this child being a clean
slate and knowing I shouldn't use the words and tone I was using and I
let
my emotions take over anyway.

-=-=-

Well, first of all, he's NOT a clean slate. He comes with emotions and
opinions and ideas that you'll never have. He was born who he is, not
someone you get to make/form/mold.

-=-=-=-


>>>>I've had to apologize more times than I ever imagined.

-=-=-=

No, you haven't *had* to do anything. You've *chosen* to apologize.
That's really important.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>We can choose to stop what we are doing. I know that.

-=-=-=-

See? <bwg>

-=-=-=-

>>>>>>> I was working it sohard in the car last night. I pulled the
car over when the kids were
fighting it the car. I was really watching myself. Trying to express
love
and kindness respectfully then just as I was about to pull away my
daughters
mouth kicks in for the last word and I slammed on the brake to give her
the
look of the devil.

-=-=-=-=-

Could it have made you sad instead of angry?

I've been in a very similar situation---to the point of tears. But the
tears worked when the anger didn't.

I just broke down and sobbed at how harsh and angry everyone was being.
Suddenly everyone was sorry for having driven me to tears.

I'm not saying to put on an act. But if you can search your own
feelings: are you angry or sad? If it really is sadness, BE sad. Not
angry.

I don't know about you, but I soften immediately when I see I've hurt
someone. Anger often just makes me angrier back.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: drusila00 <drusila00@...>



>>> My husband who isn't quite on the same page yet with me, got very
angry (because I had my feelings hurt) and in his frustration he told
our son "no candy for a week".

-=-=-=-

ANd they're related...how???

-=-=-=-

>>>The last thing I want to do is argue about this in front of our son,
or even argue about this at all but unfortunatly we have
discussed/argued (privatly) because that punishment is just well dumb
IMO.
-=-=-=--

I think it's fine to argue. How else will they learn how partners
relate? This is, of course, if you have *civil* arguments! I think it's
important to stand up for what's *right*---and doing it in front of the
injured party shows him just how much you will stand for!

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>My husband said "this unschooling this is just not working, see
what
has happened because of it?"

-=-=-=-

It's NOT the unschooling, it's the.......___________

puberty?
lack of protein?
lack of sleep?

-=-=-=-


>>>>>I think that because our Son has the right place and the safe
envoroment its all starting to come out (like poping a zit) and thats
a good thing.

-=-=-=-

Right---lots of schooled kids act out at home because it's thr only
"safe" place where they can do that. Parents are amazed when the
teacher says that the child is *wonderful* at school. But he's a
monster at home. Because he feels *safe* there! Go figure.

-=-=-=-=-

>>>>>My husband said that yes that was a posibility but felt he
couldn't go
back on what he said about the candy.

--=-=-

And yet he's making home an *unsafe* place!

Bummer. He felt he couldn't go back and make right a wrong? He couldn't
apologize and say he'd made a istake? What kind of message is that??

-==-=-=-

>>>> No more staying up late when he began having "tired" meltdowns at
school is one example, there always seemed to be a logical reasoning
for most things we limited/changed ect.

-=-==-

Maybe, but getting rid of school's a better alternative! <bwg> And more
logical. That school just gets in the way!

-=-=-=-

>>> (I think that is all My husband knows to do and he reached for that
in a moment of frustration-
-yes, I know he needs better tools-)

--=-=-=-

Stopping and breathing for just a second or two is a great tool.
Thinking before speaking is a great tool. All others can wait until
those two are mastered!

-=-=-=--

>>>>> I disagree with Mr. No candy on how this situation was handeled,
however I also do not want to argue with him (but I do think he is
wrong)

-===-=-=-

You don't have to argue, but you *can* stop him from doing further
damage. You can speak up in front of your son FOR your son. You
wouldn't let a stranger treat him that way, would you?

-=-=-=-

>>>>>> There is a welth of information out there which overwhelms him I
have
found a few things for him to read but If anyone has anything that
specificly talks about this type of thing I'd love to be able to let
my husband know that other men have been able to find positive ways to
get through this time with their sons and not against them.



-=-=-

There are a couple of dads' groups he could join. He could ask those
questions directly of other dads.

www.SSUDS@...
[email protected]


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Paige <paigehughes1972@...>

LOL because I had this SAME conversation with my husband last week!
He even said pretty much that exact same thing! Our argument was
about him trying to "teach" the girls things ALL THE FREAKIN TIME! He
being the "Great God Of All Knowledge" and they could just sit at his
feet and soak up his great wisdom. I finally exploded and the Great
God Of All Knowledge got yelled at for two hours.

-=-=-=-=-

Shortly after pulling Cameron from school, my dad had him over one day
to teach him all about the Lords Proprietors of South Carolina.
When I found out what he'd done, I said, "Cameron learned about the
Lord proprietors last year in school." Daddy said, "No he didn't." I
said. "Duh! He didn't learn them today either"

There was no interest---Cameron didn't CARE about the Lord
Proprietors---either time. Daddy "got" what we were doing. <g> It's all
about LEARNING not TEACHING.

Have you read Sandra's page on Teaching Vs Learning? Link fairy,
please???

There's huge difference, and it makes all the difference in unschooling.

I can teach you everything you'd ever want to know about unschooling;
but if you're unwilling to learn, it's a waste of my time and yours.

As soon as your husband is *willing* to learn about unschooling, he
will. Until then, he won't.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 28, 2006, at 4:13 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> Have you read Sandra's page on Teaching Vs Learning? Link fairy,
> please???

http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: drusila00 <drusila00@...>


>>>>>I think he felt it was more of an inconsistancy issue, saying one
thing and doing another is confusing and can lead to more problems
than following through and then doing diferently in the future (we
have been told.)

-=-=-=-

You've also been told that school is the only place to learn. Yet here
you are! <g>

Consistency is VERY important: consistantly honest. Consistantly
respectful. Consistantly trustworthy. Consistantly generous.
Consistantly apologetic when you're wrong....

-===-


>>>>>I do that and he reads some, I was simply hoping that someone had
somthing very specific in mind that might be helpful from the fathers
perspective.


-=-=-=-

[email protected]
[email protected]

-=-==-=-

>>>>>and I know it will pass, (it has to right?)

-=-=-=-

To quote Danny Schmidt:

"This too shall pass:
Better carve it on your forehead
Or Tattoo it on your ass"

To quote my Great Aunt Celie:

"You'd better enjoy it while you got it, 'cause you're going to miss it
when it's gone!"

It *won't* last, but it's better to deal with it the best you can
because time is short. You may not have the chance to be kind or be
gentle again. Do it NOW!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org