whatsreal12

Hello!
I'd like to ask what lessons you have for me on the issue of freedom
as compared with permissiveness. I really dislike that word
(permissiveness), but I can't think of any other way to describe what
I'm trying to say.

The reason I ask is because I come to this notion of unschooling from
a very traditional place but grew up in a very permissive environment.
It felt a little like respect and a lot like "you're on your own"
which left me ill prepared for some of life's simple realities.
I wanted better boundaries and more parental input (structure?)

Is there a lot of agreement on things like chores (none) or are those
with more structured unschooling environments just more quiet?

I am on other lists where most are self described "radical
unschoolers" Do most on this list characterize themselves the same
way and what is the difference between an unschooler and a radical
unschooler? I would be so grateful if everyone could share a little
of their thinking with me.

I know these questions rank about as high as "but how will you
socialize your homeschooler" for which I apologize :-) but someone
wrote to me "as unschooling settles in your heart" and I am very very
close, just these few remaining concerns...

I thank you so much for your thoughts.

Cynthia

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: whatsreal12 <whatsreal12@...>

>>>>The reason I ask is because I come to this notion of unschooling
from
a very traditional place but grew up in a very permissive environment.
It felt a little like respect and a lot like "you're on your own"
which left me ill prepared for some of life's simple realities.
I wanted better boundaries and more parental input (structure?)

-=-=-=-

Well, we know you didn't come from an unschooling home because you
would not have felt all "on your own." We loook at it as a partnership.
I'm here to help my sons and support them, whatever their interests.
There's a LOT of repect. Chances are you were in school, so even *that*
esteemed place of higher learning <cough, sputter> didn't prepare you
for "life's simple realities."

There are natural boundaries out there. You find them as you explore.
Parental input is not the same thing as structure.

-=-=-=-

>>>>>Is there a lot of agreement on things like chores (none) or are
those
with more structured unschooling environments just more quiet?

-=-=-=-

The loudest of us <g> aren't chore-givers. We work together to make the
household run. We help each other and we realize that different things
are important to different people.

Julie's family has chores, but they aren't set up as
"you-do-the-things-on-this-list-or-else"---they have a working farm
with lists of things that must be done each day. They've come to a
concensus as to how everything will be accomplished each day. It's
flexible and caters to each others' strengths.

Structure doesn't mean chores or no chores. I have a lot of structure
to my day/week/month/year. It's the way *I* work best. But I don't
enforce *my* way on my sons.

If you'd like to get away from chores---see what it's like on this side
of the fence---we can help you get there.

-=-=-=-

>>>>>>I am on other lists where most are self described "radical
unschoolers" Do most on this list characterize themselves the same
way and what is the difference between an unschooler and a radical
unschooler?

-=-=-

The owners and moderators are all radical unschoolers.

Most of this list? I'd say *most* are beginners! <bwg> I'd guess 90%
(totally made up stat) of the few loudmouths are radicals.

I don't think *any* of us would characterize ourselves in the same way.

Basic difference is that the unschooler sees everything as
educational---snakes and lemon cookies and computers and mud puddles
and right angles and clocks and legos and music boxes and Goethe---all
equally educational.

We radicals extend that learning to bedtimes and eating and hygiene and
chores---radicals see *EVERYTHING* as learning. We see how children as
VERY capable in all parts of life and living. We want our children to
trust that they can learn *anything* if they want to---not just the
"educational" stuff.

-=-==-=-

>>>>>I know these questions rank about as high as "but how will you
socialize your homeschooler" for which I apologize :-) but someone
wrote to me "as unschooling settles in your heart" and I am very very
close, just these few remaining concerns...

-=-=-=-

Naw. They beat out socialization hands down! <g>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

whatsreal12

Thanks so much for your reply, kbcdlovejoy!!

I've been all over the unschooling blog ring and it really helped me
to see the way unschoolers live "it"!!

I am most interested in exploring your comments about *you* having
structure but not requiring it of your kids. That is mostly where I
ran into trouble... I follow a Penelope Leach model of parenting...
respect, love, understanding... and in observing and understanding
(and trying everything under the sun) I have found that structure is
very necessary for my ds's happiness - in our current configuration-
and worried that choosing unschooling meant giving up on the hopes of
providing my children with structure under which they flourish.

You wrote:
"> There are natural boundaries out there. You find them as you explore.
> Parental input is not the same thing as structure."

This is what I am working on most of all. Thanks for the
thoughts..I'm gonna let it float...


You wrote:
"We work together to make the household run. We help each other and we
realize that different things are important to different people."

This is how we operate exactly... communication and understanding and
operating on "Principles not Rules" - sorry can't cite that - too
fried right now :-)
This is how we've always done things so I sorta felt as if I was being
asked to go FURTHER beyond our highly liberal parenting ways or give
up the idea of being an unschooler.
I can see now we may just already be there on a lot of fronts and
thats why the concept of unschooling clicked with us.

Thank you again for your reply!!

Best,
Cynthia

@yahoogroups.com, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: whatsreal12 <whatsreal12@...>

Thanks so much for your reply, kbcdlovejoy!!

-=-=-=-=-

You're welcome, but just plain "Kelly" will do! <g>

-==-=-=-

I've been all over the unschooling blog ring and it really helped me
to see the way unschoolers live "it"!!

I am most interested in exploring your comments about *you* having
structure but not requiring it of your kids. That is mostly where I
ran into trouble... I follow a Penelope Leach model of parenting...
respect, love, understanding... and in observing and understanding
(and trying everything under the sun) I have found that structure is
very necessary for my ds's happiness - in our current configuration-
and worried that choosing unschooling meant giving up on the hopes of
providing my children with structure under which they flourish.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Then you're misunderstanding the whole concept of unschooling. It
means giving the children what they need. And each child is different.

But I think it's important NOT to think you know what your child
needs! She can tell you. Maybe not now, but you should be able to take
her cues. She'll let you know when she's had enough or when something's
too much or not enough.

I think a child who craves structure (like me) will develop that
herself. If you see her struggling, you could help her tweak what she's
already doing---or show her an alternative. The biggest problem is
making sure it's HER initiative, not *yours*!!!

A lot of parents think their children need structure, when in reality,
it's the parent that does. If the mom's structure slides, the mom
freaks out and starts making the children toe the line so that she can
get things back in *her* order.

"Structure" (in education circles) often means curriculum. In
Unschooling, it means a plan to the hour/day/week/month/year/whatever.
Some children really do need to know what's going to happen next and
next and next. But in unschooling, they DON'T need to know that math is
at 9:00 and history at 10:00. They need to know they are going to the
park at 10:00, lunch at 12:30 (and where), the grocery at 2:00, and
legos from 3:30 until supper. It's a different KIND of structure from
the school model. We don't need to structure their *learning*, just
help structure their days for them. Their learning happens as that side
effect.

*I* need structure to get all my list done in one day (been sliding
soooo much lately---too many irons in the fire! Makes me feel
powerless. Need to stop, breathe, refocus!). But I DON'T need to
structure my learning. I learn while I'm doing all the things on my
lists. (Yes, that's plural---I have several all going at once! <bwg>).

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--

This is how we operate exactly... communication and understanding and
operating on "Principles not Rules" - sorry can't cite that - too
fried right now :-)
This is how we've always done things so I sorta felt as if I was being
asked to go FURTHER beyond our highly liberal parenting ways or give
up the idea of being an unschooler.
I can see now we may just already be there on a lot of fronts and
thats why the concept of unschooling clicked with us.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Well, we DO tend to ask you to go further! <g> I figure I can always
be a better parent, better spouse, better person. Just because I get
it, doesn't mean I don't keep working towards a bigger, better goal.

If your child NEEDS structure, help her find it, develop it, channel
it. Just be sure it's HER structure and not yours imposed on her.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

whatsreal12

Kelly,
Here's how I know its not my need for structure.... I hate structure!
I resist it in every way possible, I function much better when I
flow, when I have a wacky schedule -

Kelly wrote: "Then you're misunderstanding the whole concept of
unschooling."
This feels like a smackdown. I seriously doubt that after reading
all I have read (from John Holt to Life Learning magazine to talking
to my unschooling friends) that I "misunderstand the whole concept"
simply because I question the confusion these boards create amongst
novices ( I am not the only one - Joyfully Rejoycing has to repeat
over and over again to posters that unschooling DOESN'T mean giving up
being a parent) I don't misunderstand the whole concept but I do
have a learning curve.
I would like to think that this is an open board where we can come to
learn, be challenged and think, but not to be talked down to. I don't
think it behooves the transmission of this life changing (world
changing) philosophy to treat the learners as if they were not already
parents! I have had the joy of being a parent for 10 years. I'm darn
good at it. Our family has open loving communication. We too can
still learn, grow and improve, but all too often on this board I see
the arrogance of the "experts" and I find that to be highly ironic.

Thanks for your well-intentioned efforts and for taking the time to
reply to my previous posts.
Cynthia

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: whatsreal12 <whatsreal12@...>

Kelly wrote: "Then you're misunderstanding the whole concept of
unschooling."
This feels like a smackdown. I seriously doubt that after reading
all I have read (from John Holt to Life Learning magazine to talking
to my unschooling friends) that I "misunderstand the whole concept"
simply because I question the confusion these boards create amongst
novices ( I am not the only one - Joyfully Rejoycing has to repeat
over and over again to posters that unschooling DOESN'T mean giving up
being a parent) I don't misunderstand the whole concept but I do
have a learning curve.

-=-==-

I didn't mean it as a smack-down at all!

What I was trying (miserably, obviously) to say was that, if you
thought unschoolers couldn't structure things, you misunderstood what
we try really hard to get across: each person, especially each CHILD,
is unique. It's our job as parents is to find what works for each
child---especialy if that child is not like us.

-=-=-=-

I would like to think that this is an open board where we can come to
learn, be challenged and think, but not to be talked down to. I don't
think it behooves the transmission of this life changing (world
changing) philosophy to treat the learners as if they were not already
parents! I have had the joy of being a parent for 10 years. I'm darn
good at it. Our family has open loving communication. We too can
still learn, grow and improve, but all too often on this board I see
the arrogance of the "experts" and I find that to be highly ironic.

-=-=-=--

Well, I'd like to think that this board is open too.<g>

I think we try really hard NOT to talk down. And I don't thik we
consider ourselves "experts"---we're just trying to help people get
further in unschooling. We fail someytimes. But I think we help more
than we harm.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Ren Allen

"We too can
still learn, grow and improve, but all too often on this board I see
the arrogance of the "experts" and I find that to be highly ironic."

That's hard for me to read.
I think this board is one of the MOST open, easygoing and supportive
unschooling lists out there.

What Kelly was saying was that IF you thought structure was off
limits, THEN you aren't understanding unschooling. Which would be true.
There was a disclaimer there....the IF.

I don't see where there is arrogance at this board, I read tolerance,
support and sometimes a really good point being made.:) I have a very
hard time reading about arrogance when everyone here is VOLUNTEERING
their time and effort in order to help others see the possibilities
that unschooling offers.

Confidence and arrogance are different. There is a LOT of confidence here.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

whatsreal12

Well, first I would want to thank Kelly for her reply and say Yes,
there is no doubt that you have far more successes than otherwise! I
thank you. And Ren, I thank you and all the others very, very much
for your time and service to the newbies.

I see now I came across as too "violent" in my assertion that there is
a certain tone of arrogance taken with some posts. But I thought long
and hard about posting because if I had said nothing, I would've
simply left, and unfortunately I know that I am not the only one who
is frustrated with a perception of a tone. If I am wrong, then I am
wrong.
I think answering queries posed is kind, helpful, and I am grateful
you are willing to do it. But as you all challenge us newbies on
their perceptions... maybe there is something to my words.
Again, I thank you. And I wish you continued success!
Cynthia
Please feel free to email me personally if you'd like.


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> "We too can
> still learn, grow and improve, but all too often on this board I see
> the arrogance of the "experts" and I find that to be highly ironic."
>
> That's hard for me to read.
> I think this board is one of the MOST open, easygoing and supportive
> unschooling lists out there.
>
> What Kelly was saying was that IF you thought structure was off
> limits, THEN you aren't understanding unschooling. Which would be true.
> There was a disclaimer there....the IF.
>
> I don't see where there is arrogance at this board, I read tolerance,
> support and sometimes a really good point being made.:) I have a very
> hard time reading about arrogance when everyone here is VOLUNTEERING
> their time and effort in order to help others see the possibilities
> that unschooling offers.
>
> Confidence and arrogance are different. There is a LOT of confidence
here.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

Ren Allen

"I see now I came across as too "violent" in my assertion that there is
a certain tone of arrogance taken with some posts."

Well I certainly wouldn't call it violent...not even in quotations.:)
I just cringe when I read that long timers are coming across as
"arrogant" when I know the dedication it takes to keep answering the
same questions year after year.

I'm glad you stayed. It's a great little corner of the internet in my
not-so-humble opinion.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Stephanie Jackson

> I just cringe when I read that long timers are
> coming across as
> "arrogant" when I know the dedication it takes
> to keep answering the
> same questions year after year.

And I want you to know that the newcomers among
you (i.e. me) are aware of the redundancy of most
of our issues and really do appreciate all of
your contributions. You help make the world a
better place for ALL of our kids.

Stephanie Jackson, Mommie to Clara Rhyse and Bella Pearl

We don't inherit the Earth from our parents.
We borrow it from our children.












__________________________________________________
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trektheory

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> I don't see where there is arrogance at this board, I read tolerance,
> support and sometimes a really good point being made.:)


Well, I have to say, I see some of both. Someone who is exploring
different approaches and visits here will get the feeling that the
people here think that they have the one and only true way to
educate/raise children. But humanity is so varied, needs are so
varied, that what works best for this group, may not be what is best
or currently needed for someone else. Just my $.02 worth. (With
inflation, not terribly valuable, in other words!)

Linda

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/11/06, whatsreal12 <whatsreal12@...> wrote:
>
>
> I see now I came across as too "violent" in my assertion that there is
> a certain tone of arrogance taken with some posts. But I thought long
> and hard about posting because if I had said nothing, I would've
> simply left, and unfortunately I know that I am not the only one who
> is frustrated with a perception of a tone.


Tone is what you make of it. There is no "tone" in most posts as we have no
way of reading sarcasm, query or challenge into the words posted. Our own
tone enfluences how posts will be read. :) I was very recently kicked off
(or rather asked to leave and then moderated) from an e-mail list for
homeschoolers. It was for a group across the border. I joined it because
it was the only list for that are, a place we were considering moving and
because Dan works there and I thought we might join them for some of the
(really cool) activities that they do since it isn't that far of a drive.
We've done a few things with them, but not much just because of the friggin'
gas prices (you can intone that anyway you want :) ) For the past year or
so whenever a new person would sign on the list with their "Hello, I'm new
to all this homeschooling and dont' even know where to begin. Help me."
posts, I would offer information about unschooling. Never the "Oh this is
the ONLY way to homeschool and if you don't do it this way then you are a
dolt." But simply, "I have found that unschooling has really worked well
for our family. We love the freedom to learn as and what we want. For more
information you can write me off-list or visit this website." *Everytime* I
would post something like that the owner would jump in and go "Warning:
Unschooling is NOT the only way to homeschool. Please look into ALL the
different ways of homeschooling before you select one." And yes; she would
use the word "warning." What I found ironic about the whole situation is
that she claimed that she was going to use the "Classical" or "Trivium"
approach with her children (3 under the age of 5 - so not even "starting
homeschool" yet.) When I asked once if she could tell me more about this
style of learning she said that she really didn't know much, but that it was
the education that her husband was raised with in some Eastern European
country and he thought it was best. Hello?!??!?! She is going to teach her
children using a style she knows very little about but she tells other
people to do their homework on homeschooling. Yeah. Well. I rarely posted
personal posts on that list and usually only posted "informational" posts.
I wasn't looking to that list for support in our unschooling, just looking
for people to hang out with. Very scary people to hang out with. :-)

What I have found in doing work with interpersonal communication skills is
that people who have doubts about the way that they are doing something will
tend to read what other people say as confrontational. They may be
questioning something that they have done or did something that they felt
wasn't the right thing, but when they read that verification (that what they
did may not be right) they find that they have to justify their actions and
any information, both positive and negative, is seen as a challenge. I know
this list is good for questioning what people are doing by asking lots of
questions and for some people that can be seen as a challenge to the way
they are currently doing things and it makes them feel like they have to
defend it or prove why the suggestions won't work for them.

I have to say that it felt good to get kicked off that list. It validated,
for me, the things that I thought about most of these women.

--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>Someone who is exploring different approaches and visits here will get the feeling that the people here think that they have the one and only true way to educate/raise children.>>

I don't think this is the only way to raise a happy family, but I do believe it's the best. If I didn't think it was best, I'd be doing something different with my family. <g> I don't have any doubts at this point. I know others do, but I can only share what *I* have experienced.

>>But humanity is so varied, needs are so varied, that what works best for this group, may not be what is best or currently needed for someone else. >>

But this *is* an Unschooling Basics group. It's a group specifically designed to help people understand and implement unschooling in their own families. When you come here, that's the viewpoint you're gonna get. <g>

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "trektheory" <trektheory@...>

Ren Allen

"Someone who is exploring
different approaches and visits here will get the feeling that the
people here think that they have the one and only true way to
educate/raise children. But humanity is so varied, needs are so
varied, that what works best for this group, may not be what is best
or currently needed for someone else."

This list does not exist to help people figure out different
approaches, it's here to help people understand UNSCHOOLING.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Stephanie Jackson

> Well, I have to say, I see some of both.
> Someone who is exploring
> different approaches and visits here will get
> the feeling that the
> people here think that they have the one and
> only true way to
> educate/raise children.

I don't know about that, but if they visit here
looking to learn more about unschooling, they
most definitely will do so. The main premise to
this seems to me that it's all about, to the
extent possible, honoring the needs of every
member of your family in every situation.
Equally. Whatever those needs may be.

And I personally want the people to whom I go for
advice to be confident in their own choices. I
believe that that means they believe that their
choice is the absolute BEST choice for THEIR
families. I believe that I have to honor my
individual instincts & intelligence to help me
make decisions for my own family.

I have joined & left a number of other
homeschooling boards because they were so
abrasive that I just couldn't understand how they
could be that way online every day and still
manage to be gentle & tolerant with their
families. I didn't like the feeling I got while
I read the posts, many of which seemed
offens-ive, petty & often irrelevant, or so I
thought. Either way, they weren't for me. I
joined and stayed with this group because the
parents here are, in fact, honest, gentle &
tolerant while being well-read, well-informed,
well-practiced, wise, walk-the-walk type of
UNSCHOOLING parents. I mentioned to dh the other
day that I'm amazed at how much help & support I
get from a bunch of people I'll likely never
meet. Don't know what I'd do with out y'all.



Stephanie Jackson, Mommie to Clara Rhyse and Bella Pearl

We don't inherit the Earth from our parents.
We borrow it from our children.












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trektheory

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> "Someone who is exploring
> different approaches and visits here will get the feeling that the
> people here think that they have the one and only true way to
> educate/raise children. But humanity is so varied, needs are so
> varied, that what works best for this group, may not be what is
best
> or currently needed for someone else."
>
> This list does not exist to help people figure out different
> approaches, it's here to help people understand UNSCHOOLING.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>

But unschooling encompasses so many approaches to life -- and I have
seen people get jumped on for aspects that are outside the strict
realm of unschooling, too. The forms of discipline (and by
discipline, btw, I'm not necessarily referring to punishment) have
been touted as "this is the only way" -- not in so many words, of
course, but the implication has been there. My son, imo, has always
been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are some children
that are much more challenging to guide. So, because x,y, and z
worked well for us, doesn't mean it will work best for you, or Susy
Q down the street. Does that make sense?

Linda

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/12/06, trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote:
>
> My son, imo, has always
> been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are some children
> that are much more challenging to guide. So, because x,y, and z
> worked well for us, doesn't mean it will work best for you, or Susy
> Q down the street. Does that make sense?


Perhaps, but I dont' think I've ever read anyone say, "This is how you
should fix the problem" or "This is how you should discipline." What I see
on this list is not how to fix problems but how to look at things from your
child's point of view and how an unschooling family would approach a
problem. Are we asking the "hard questions" or perhaps answering with
questions that are fearful to approach. Sometimes treading in new territory
can be difficult when the mainstream media is SO LOUD about what is
"right." It took me a while to be able to drown out mainstream media so I
could listen to my children. :)





--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----

But this *is* an Unschooling Basics group. It's a group specifically
designed to
help people understand and implement unschooling in their own families.
When you
come here, that's the viewpoint you're gonna get. <g>

-=-=-

And if it doesn't suit, you should probably move on---find another
list, something that would be more appropriate.

But if you're looking to actually MOVE towards unschooling, then stay.
Our feelings don't get hurt---really!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

“Learn as if you were going to live forever.
Live as if you were going to die tomorrow.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Ren Allen

" My son, imo, has always
been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are some children
that are much more challenging to guide. So, because x,y, and z
worked well for us, doesn't mean it will work best for you, or Susy
Q down the street. Does that make sense?"

No, it doesn't. Maybe you could be more specific. If you want to get
into children that are "challenging" or more intense, I could give you
an earful. I think you actually need to really notch up the respect,
gentleness and kindness when dealing with intense behaviors!!

I think the EXACT SAME principles are important for EVERY child.
Respect, kindness, generosity, peace, joy and gentleness are something
every child needs and deserves no matter what. HOW that plays out when
dealing with challenges will look different from situation to situation.
The principles are the same.
The philosophy is the same.

What we discuss here is how to work as a PARTNER with your child. What
we discuss is how to help learning unfold in your home in a natural
manner. What we discuss is how to respect children and their choices
on every level. That's what we're here to discuss...how to GET to
unschooling (or dig deeper).

We're all learning and growing constantly. But some of us have found a
very deep and abiding confidence in unschooling and in living
respectfully with our children. We only want to share what has worked
and what is detrimental. This list was created specifically for that
purpose. To deter from that purpose would be disrespectful to all the
folks that signed up here to GET that from the list.

My confidence and ability to speak about unschooling does not mean I'm
not also digging deeper and learning more as I walk this
journey...believe me!! Just now, I walked into my bedroom with a pile
of nachos and Jalen says "MOM, you can't eat in your room!!" (I've
asked everyone not to bring food in my room since I can't STAND it in
my bed and all over the floor).
I looked at him funny and he says "well, YOU said it!"
"You're right buddy, thanks for reminding me" I answered.
We went and ate them together at the table and Markus says "He has no
tolerance for hypocrisy". ")

So true. Jalen reminded me tonight, that respect means that I don't
ask something of them that I wouldn't do myself!! duh. I love that
they won't let me get away with that crap....they keep me true.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

trektheory

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> " My son, imo, has always
> been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are some children
> that are much more challenging to guide. So, because x,y, and z
> worked well for us, doesn't mean it will work best for you, or Susy
> Q down the street. Does that make sense?"
>
> No, it doesn't. Maybe you could be more specific. If you want to
get
> into children that are "challenging" or more intense, I could give
you
> an earful. I think you actually need to really notch up the
respect,
> gentleness and kindness when dealing with intense behaviors!!
>
> I think the EXACT SAME principles are important for EVERY child.
> Respect, kindness, generosity, peace, joy and gentleness are
something
> every child needs and deserves no matter what. HOW that plays out
when
> dealing with challenges will look different from situation to
situation.
> The principles are the same.
> The philosophy is the same.
>
> What we discuss here is how to work as a PARTNER with your child.
What
> we discuss is how to help learning unfold in your home in a natural
> manner. What we discuss is how to respect children and their
choices
> on every level. That's what we're here to discuss...how to GET to
> unschooling (or dig deeper).


But some of what I have read here is what I have gathered to
be "radical unschooling" vs "unschooling" (based on some definitions
I've read on this list.) I thought "generic unschooling" (okay, so
there isn't a good term to differentiate, I guess) is ditch the
curriculum (unless the child wants it), and allowing them to learn,
follow interests, etc. Setting guidelines in other areas of their
lives, that effect the rest of the family, or not, even, but still
allowing them to learn the things they chose to -- is that not a
form of unschooling?

For instance, food/health issues.

Suppose someone has a diabetic child (I don't, but have known
some.) Child decides that they don't care about the consequences,
they aren't going to do testing, will eat whatever, and will not
take insulin. This isn't a matter of respect but health and
maturity. We cannot expect a young child to be mature, to make
mature decisions, and in this example, it would have disasterous
consequences to respet the child's choices.

>
> We're all learning and growing constantly. But some of us have
found a
> very deep and abiding confidence in unschooling and in living
> respectfully with our children. We only want to share what has
worked
> and what is detrimental.

I have never had a problem with people sharing what worked or was
detrimental for their family -- but please, remember that what works
and what is negative for your family, may not be what works or is
negative for all families. The devil is in the details -- and your
family doubtless has different personalities, interests, needs, than
my family. And than Mary's. Or ...

I truly do respect that you have found that going "whole hog" has
worked wonderfully for your family, and that you are passionate
about it. (I tend to be passionate about things, too, in case ya
didn't notice. ;-)) But cannot we have some common middle ground
that allows us to acknowledge that there are many ways to do things,
even unschooling? And that, perhaps, some people may need to take
it a step at a time for their own family's well-being?


> This list was created specifically for that
> purpose. To deter from that purpose would be disrespectful to all
the
> folks that signed up here to GET that from the list.
>
> My confidence and ability to speak about unschooling does not mean
I'm
> not also digging deeper and learning more as I walk this
> journey...believe me!! Just now, I walked into my bedroom with a
pile
> of nachos and Jalen says "MOM, you can't eat in your room!!" (I've
> asked everyone not to bring food in my room since I can't STAND it
in
> my bed and all over the floor).
> I looked at him funny and he says "well, YOU said it!"
> "You're right buddy, thanks for reminding me" I answered.
> We went and ate them together at the table and Markus says "He has
no
> tolerance for hypocrisy". ")

Well, there are guidelines that I see (and fwiw, we have the same
food rule in our home!) But I have seen others get jumped on for
saying they have a rule about not having food in the bedrooms! What
is wrong with family rules and guidelines? IMO, nothing. What has
that to do with unschooling? I don't get that?


> So true. Jalen reminded me tonight, that respect means that I don't
> ask something of them that I wouldn't do myself!! duh. I love that
> they won't let me get away with that crap....they keep me true.


Kids are a delight, aren't they? I know my son can surprise me at
the oddest times!

Linda

Ren Allen

"We cannot expect a young child to be mature, to make
mature decisions, and in this example, it would have disasterous
consequences to respet the child's choices."

I have never, ever read a post that tells anyone to ignore a very real
medical need!! If there is a REAL reason to impose something, then by
all means do it. But it can still be done with respect to what that
person wants, meeting their underlying needs.

If you're in a partnership with your child, then all issues/challenges
are going to be handled AS a partnership rather than top-down
management style. Of course children don't have the same experience
and maturity that an adult does. Of course we are supposed to keep
them safe from harm. But a child wants to stay safe from harm too!
They don't always know how, nor understand consequences but if treated
as intelligent capable human beings, they will surprise you with their
ability at a very young age.

Nobody here is advocating a free-for-all. Nobody is saying "let your
child do whatever they want, regardless of the consequences" yet that
seems to be the message some folks are getting.

Arbitrary rules are silly. Principles help us live by a "code", a code
that can apply in a variety of situations. My bedroom is shared by my
children but I don't like food in it. They understand that. That
doesn't mean we have a rule that says "You can never eat in a bedroom".

When they want to watch tv in Sierra's room, they bring food in. When
she doesn't want mess in her room, we try to bring in mats or
something to meet both needs.....food with tv AND lack of food on her
floor.:) The goal is to strive to meet everyone's needs, not lay down
some arbitrary rule. There are still codes of conduct, guidelines,
basic principles of treating each other well and personal boundaries.
Heck, call it a rule. But our "rules" are mostly up for discussion
because they center around what each of us prefers. The only ones I
can think of that I wouldn't be willing to fudge on, are things like
"no smoking in my house"....not really an issue around here though.:)

Balance. That's what it's really all about. Balance and respect.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

>>I mentioned to dh the other
day that I'm amazed at how much help & support I
get from a bunch of people I'll likely never
meet. >>

Oh but you CAN meet us all at the Live and Learn confernce in September! :o) http://liveandlearnconference.org/

--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Stephanie Jackson <SMc42TX@...>

Pampered Chef Michelle

On 5/13/06, trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote:
>
> -
> But some of what I have read here is what I have gathered to
> be "radical unschooling" vs "unschooling" (based on some definitions
> I've read on this list.)



If you look at the list description (I'll quote it): "A list designed for
those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all
those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real
families.

If you're familiar with John Holt's work...." you will see that this is NOT
a list about homeschooling or the definition of "homeschooling without
curriculum" It states clearly that this is about the "philosophy of
unschooling" which is different than the unschooling homeschool style. I
haven't seen people getting "jumped on" for their rules that are different
than what some of us might use, but rather I see those rules being
questioned. People do get defensive when the way they are doing something
is questioned.




--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

**My son, imo, has always been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are
some children that are much more challenging to guide.**

It is the challenging children who most need to have their parents on their
side, trying to see the world through their eyes, listening to them, helping
them to navigate the world. They are the most likely to strongly resist and be
permanently harmed by coercive and punitive parenting methods.

Some children are hugely resilient. They can sail through the most horrendous
situations seeminly untouched, rising above it all and flourishing. Some
children have no resilience at all. They are scarred by every negative thing that
ever happens to them. Most children are somewhere in between those extremes.
"Challenging" children tend to be on the unbouncy end of that spectrum.

Deborah in IL

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/14/2006 12:03:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
DACunefare@... writes:

Some children are hugely resilient. They can sail through the most
horrendous
situations seeminly untouched, rising above it all and flourishing. Some
children have no resilience at all. They are scarred by every negative thing
that
ever happens to them. Most children are somewhere in between those extremes.
"Challenging" children tend to be on the unbouncy end of that spectrum.



*********

Thank you, Deborah for stating this so eloquently. I've had so many
occasions of late where people have been saying "children are resilient", and I am
left thinking to myself "well, mine aren't."

Leslie in SC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

trektheory

--- In [email protected], DACunefare@... wrote:
>
> **My son, imo, has always been incredibly easy to raise, but I
know there are
> some children that are much more challenging to guide.**
>
> It is the challenging children who most need to have their parents
on their
> side, trying to see the world through their eyes, listening to
them, helping
> them to navigate the world. They are the most likely to strongly
resist and be
> permanently harmed by coercive and punitive parenting methods.

That is exactly why I don't judge how a parent raises their child.
I haven't walked in their shoes! (Don't you hate how people who
have no kids all seem to be such experts on what parents should do?)

Linda

Joyce Fetteroll

> "We cannot expect a young child to be mature, to make
> mature decisions, and in this example, it would have disasterous
> consequences to respet the child's choices."

Streets are deadly for all children. Toddlers don't have the
experience to understand that cars can kill them.

Does that mean the only answer is to limit and control the child?

Turn your thinking around from protecting them to being their
partner. Toddlers may want to run into the street but they also want
to stay alive! Helping a child doesn't mean letting them run into
danger just because that's the direction they're headed with sparkles
in their eyes. But the other choice isn't being a roadblock.

We can offer something better.

We can stay away from busy streets until a child can understand.

And we can give them a dose of information as we're steering them clear.

Same with deadly peanut allergies.

It's a lot more useful to ask how unschoolers handle a potentially
life threatening situation than to say "No, can't, our situation
isn't average so we need to control."

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

**I've had so many occasions of late where people have been saying "children
are resilient", and I am left thinking to myself "well, mine aren't."**

Stories of the resilient warm our hearts. And I think most of us
subconciously cling to them because otherwise we would be overwhelmed by the tragedy of
the billions of damaging things to happen to children every day, all over the
world, right next door, and in our own homes and families.

Deborah in IL

katherand2003

Ren this is so true. Inasmuch as possible and on an ongoing basis...
to know yourself and what you're about (that's the principle) says
volumes to the child. This works with everybody, including adults.
That way the possibility of getting drawn into someone's drama ...
their struggles ... is not so likely. In other words, people who have
a fairly accurate sense of themselves remain steady. Not distant
(unless they need to be for self-preservation from abuse) but they are
themselves not who/what others think they are. And so that
transference of the child's own issues from self to parent doesn't
happen. With support and empathy (relating not identifying with) for
the child, the parent can simply be --- a bulwark when needed in the
storms of life rather than a barometer.

Kathe


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>
> " My son, imo, has always
> been incredibly easy to raise, but I know there are some children
> that are much more challenging to guide. So, because x,y, and z
> worked well for us, doesn't mean it will work best for you, or Susy
> Q down the street. Does that make sense?"
>
> No, it doesn't. Maybe you could be more specific. If you want to get
> into children that are "challenging" or more intense, I could give you
> an earful. I think you actually need to really notch up the respect,
> gentleness and kindness when dealing with intense behaviors!!
>
> I think the EXACT SAME principles are important for EVERY child.
> Respect, kindness, generosity, peace, joy and gentleness are something
> every child needs and deserves no matter what. HOW that plays out when
> dealing with challenges will look different from situation to situation.
> The principles are the same.
> The philosophy is the same.