RE: [unschoolingbasics] Digest Number 878
Misty Felner
On Apr 17, 2006, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
In response to:
> She's never
> asked for candy
>Which means what? I don't think my daughter liked candy much at that
age. At 2.5 my daughter had a similar food environment because there
wasn't a reason to have snacky food around. But by 14 she's been
exposed to lots of snacky foods and *still* without me hovering over
her, without me training her on what's "right" to eat and what's
"wrong", eats well balanced meals. Yes, she has candy, she has an occasional
soda but she prefers milk with a little chocolate. She prefers herbal
tea to black tea.>
I'm sure by the time my daughter is that age she will also have had that
exposure. Each day she gets older she's exposed to more and more things.
>How will your daughter reconcile what you say about limiting foods
that don't "help people grow" with people like my daughter who are
healthy and well grown who do eat foods that won't "help people
grow"? <
Again at dd's age your daughter would appear to be grown up.
>We do care as much about our kids as you do yours. If we let our kids have
chocolate chips instead of carob chips it's not because we don't
care. <
I want to make it clear that I don't feel anyone here doesn't care about
their kids, if you didn't you wouldn't be here.
>When you want to watch something, are you allowed?
Sometimes, but not always :)
>It will help you move towards whole life unschooling to not see it as
allowing them but helping them do what they want and enjoy.<
That is a good way to look at things.
>It's okay if you don't want to move that direction. But any ideas
that are posted *that hinder someone else* from moving that direction
will be held up and examined.<
I know there are others on this site like me, and maybe some of them are on
the same page as me, maybe not. I hope that my questions and comments and
the responses given help them to make decisions one way or another, as it
helps me.
>And there are plenty of people here who have teens -- who were 2.5 at
one time! -- who *know* from experience it isn't necessary to control
them until they can make the same decisions mom would.>
First of all I don't expect her to make exactly the same decisions I do.
Secondly it would be helpful to know who those of you who are that have
teenagers now and were radical unschoolers from the beginning.
Mon, April 17 Michelle wrote:
>We did a "totally chocolate dinner" one time because they
thought it would be wonderful. They felt awful! They hated the way that
they felt and hated how sluggish and slow they were. Their conclusion was
that eating only chocolate may taste delicious but it does nothing to give
you energy. My girls are limitless because they are able to make informed
experience-based decisions about what to eat.<
They are also old enough to understand that they felt bad b/c of what they
ate.
>Have you read some of the articles on food limitations at Sandra
Dodd's website. I never believed them when we first started unschooling
until I trusted my children to experience food and not have labels on food
such as "good" and "bad."<
I have not read them, but I'd like to take a look. What age did you start
"trusting your children to experience food". Does her website deal with the
issues of limitations/restrictions on diet for medical reasons?
I think we've pretty much exhausted this topic. I'll be taking a look at
her website to see what it has to say.
Misty
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/17/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
even started unschooling. Roly Poly Olie was fairly new on tv at the time
and that is where they got the idea. So Mary Elayne may have been around 3
which means that Emily was around 6 and Keon a newborn. However, I have
clear memories of them noticing the way food effected them long before
that. Emily (who is now 13.5yo) has a sensitivity to Red Dye #40. It does
really nasty things to her ability to rationalize and cope with minor
annoyances in her life. When she was very young she would go into rages and
not even be able to tell me why she was going into rages. When we did an
elimination diet and discovered this was a key to her behaviour and
eliminated this from her diet her life changed so much! She was a different
(and fun to be with again) child. She wasn't even 2 when we discovered
this. She's known about this sensitivity ever since. She also was able to
at a very young age recognize that her body was impacted by the foods she
ate, particularly RD40. We helped her recognize what was happening to her
and she has chosen since then whether to consume RD40 or whether to bypass
something that might make her feel badly.
Just because a child doesn't recognize the connection doesn't mean we can
help them see the connection. That's parenting. Lack of limitations does
not mean we don't inform our children about things. Would you warn someone,
a stranger for instance, if you saw something dangerous? Would you yell
out for someone to stop if they stepped out into the street and didn't see a
car? No difference with your children. We are one of the facilitators of
their learning and that includes food.
experienced with their children. There are quite a few unschoolers who have
raised their children RU from birth. Some of us had RU babies and then for
some reason decided to make them conform to a certain set of rules as they
got older. Think of the moms that have breastfed babies that aren't
scheduled, fed on demand, co-slept, and self-weaned. That's unschooling.
Then suddenly they are told that they have a bunch of rules to follow. How
confusing is that. I think one of the reasons that I saw my children's
preschool years as so difficult is because I pushed them through that
transition. From freedom to restrictions.
I think we've pretty much exhausted this topic. I'll be taking a look at
They all aren't Sandra's experiences. So you are going to get more than one
person's perspective on how their lives were changed through unschooling!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Actually they were much younger when we did this. It was actually before we
>
> >We did a "totally chocolate dinner" one time because they
> thought it would be wonderful. They felt awful! They hated the way that
> they felt and hated how sluggish and slow they were. Their conclusion was
> that eating only chocolate may taste delicious but it does nothing to give
> you energy. My girls are limitless because they are able to make informed
> experience-based decisions about what to eat.<
>
> They are also old enough to understand that they felt bad b/c of what they
> ate.
even started unschooling. Roly Poly Olie was fairly new on tv at the time
and that is where they got the idea. So Mary Elayne may have been around 3
which means that Emily was around 6 and Keon a newborn. However, I have
clear memories of them noticing the way food effected them long before
that. Emily (who is now 13.5yo) has a sensitivity to Red Dye #40. It does
really nasty things to her ability to rationalize and cope with minor
annoyances in her life. When she was very young she would go into rages and
not even be able to tell me why she was going into rages. When we did an
elimination diet and discovered this was a key to her behaviour and
eliminated this from her diet her life changed so much! She was a different
(and fun to be with again) child. She wasn't even 2 when we discovered
this. She's known about this sensitivity ever since. She also was able to
at a very young age recognize that her body was impacted by the foods she
ate, particularly RD40. We helped her recognize what was happening to her
and she has chosen since then whether to consume RD40 or whether to bypass
something that might make her feel badly.
Just because a child doesn't recognize the connection doesn't mean we can
help them see the connection. That's parenting. Lack of limitations does
not mean we don't inform our children about things. Would you warn someone,
a stranger for instance, if you saw something dangerous? Would you yell
out for someone to stop if they stepped out into the street and didn't see a
car? No difference with your children. We are one of the facilitators of
their learning and that includes food.
>Have you read some of the articles on food limitations at SandraPlease do take a look at her articles. See what other parents have
> Dodd's website. I never believed them when we first started unschooling
> until I trusted my children to experience food and not have labels on food
> such as "good" and "bad."<
>
> I have not read them, but I'd like to take a look. What age did you start
> "trusting your children to experience food". Does her website deal with
> the
> issues of limitations/restrictions on diet for medical reasons?
experienced with their children. There are quite a few unschoolers who have
raised their children RU from birth. Some of us had RU babies and then for
some reason decided to make them conform to a certain set of rules as they
got older. Think of the moms that have breastfed babies that aren't
scheduled, fed on demand, co-slept, and self-weaned. That's unschooling.
Then suddenly they are told that they have a bunch of rules to follow. How
confusing is that. I think one of the reasons that I saw my children's
preschool years as so difficult is because I pushed them through that
transition. From freedom to restrictions.
I think we've pretty much exhausted this topic. I'll be taking a look at
> her website to see what it has to say.Remember that the articles on her website come from a variety of sources.
They all aren't Sandra's experiences. So you are going to get more than one
person's perspective on how their lives were changed through unschooling!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 17, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Misty Felner wrote:
feel you need to control her food when my daughter from the beginning
had freedom to eat what she wanted when she wanted without a running
commentary from me and has always when averaged over a week chosen a
healthy diet?
(Though from 4-10 it was more limited in terms of variety because
things just didn't taste good to her, as many kids go through. As
puberty came on her taste changed again and now there's little she
doesn't like.)
don't "help people grow".
As questions came up I pointed out that there were foods with more
nutrition and less nutrition. (I can't remember the contexts, but it
was information, not meant to make her feel like not eating
something.) I didn't tell her not to eat the less nutritious food.
Because she had freedom to choose, her body naturally was drawn to
take in the nutrition it needed. But she neither avoided nor overate
less nutritious food.
Why do you believe your daughter is less capable?
There are also people who have had kids they've controlled at the
beginning and later kids they gave freedom to. You can ask what the
differences were they found.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm sure by the time my daughter is that age she will also have hadWhy do you feel your daughter is less competent than mine? Why do you
> that
> exposure. Each day she gets older she's exposed to more and more
> things.
feel you need to control her food when my daughter from the beginning
had freedom to eat what she wanted when she wanted without a running
commentary from me and has always when averaged over a week chosen a
healthy diet?
(Though from 4-10 it was more limited in terms of variety because
things just didn't taste good to her, as many kids go through. As
puberty came on her taste changed again and now there's little she
doesn't like.)
> Again at dd's age your daughter would appear to be grown up.But she got there by eating things you've told your daughter that
don't "help people grow".
As questions came up I pointed out that there were foods with more
nutrition and less nutrition. (I can't remember the contexts, but it
was information, not meant to make her feel like not eating
something.) I didn't tell her not to eat the less nutritious food.
Because she had freedom to choose, her body naturally was drawn to
take in the nutrition it needed. But she neither avoided nor overate
less nutritious food.
Why do you believe your daughter is less capable?
> Secondly it would be helpful to know who those of you who are thatYou might want to make that a topic and ask about parents' experiences.
> have
> teenagers now and were radical unschoolers from the beginning.
There are also people who have had kids they've controlled at the
beginning and later kids they gave freedom to. You can ask what the
differences were they found.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], "Pampered Chef Michelle"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
chocolate fondue with marshmallows, strawberries, graham crackers,
angel cake, and banana chunks. Both on the table at the same time
(actually, the chocolate was there first, the cheese took a bit more
work to get the consistency right). DS (almost 8, not a 'grown up'
by any stretch) had a few marshmallows covered in chocolate. Then
the cheese fondue hit the table and he alternated randomly between
the two and probably ate as much of the cheese fondue as I did.
between his protein intake (food in general, especially proteins)
and his behavior. He'd get to doing something he -knew- was
irritating, potentially hazardous, etc and when requested to stop,
he'd say "my brain won't let me stop" or something similar. His
tolerance for frustration would plummet and meltdowns would occur.
When the connection clicked in my head I said "Hey how about we go
get a PBJ and talk about this. Would you like grape or strawberry
jam?" (or something to that effect) and when he was munching I told
him I noticed that if he had some protein regularly (not a whole lot
even necessarily - a tbl of PB, a slice or two of cheese, whatever),
he didn't get so frustrated as easily. Now he's so used to it, he
almost doesn't think twice about just going and finding food when he
starts feeling that 'oddness'. And, we continue to offer or just
have available for him (like making some crackers and cheese to take
to him while he's playing a video game) various foods - just because
he understands it doesn't mean we don't continue to help and be
available for him. He is also in on/overhearing our discussions
related to things like DH's hypertension - sodium, potassium,
cholesterol, etc. He's probably more conscientious about checking
labels than I am. One time, he was maybe 5ish, we had picked up a
pizza to take home and we stopped to pick up some soda to go with it
(don't know about you but pizza needs carbonated beverages). DS
stood looking at the selection and then picked up the Sprite and
read the sodium level. Then he picked up the root beer and checked
the sodium level. And chose the one with less sodium because "this
is better for Daddy's blood pressure". The cashier at the mini-mart
(who was close enough to hear the whole thing) got a kick out of his
choosing. We talk (not teach not lecture but discuss as it arises)
about things like HFCS, what 'organic' means, and so on.
limits were set by real life things - like when we ran out of
oranges or Cheerios. Those items would wait until the next grocery
trip. A limit set not by us as far as "we have 6 oranges but you can
only have two today" but rather the reality of sometimes all the
oranges are gone and pay day is Friday and we'll get more then. Oh,
and he had input from the time he could talk and point as to what we
bought. From early on, we'd discuss having to choose between A and B
because of our food money. By age 4 or 5 we'd go to the market
together and he'd choose between things as necessary (if we were
coming in low on the budget he could get A and B but if it was
getting tight he could get A or B - his choice). Sometimes his
choices were between pudding and cupcakes. Sometimes his choices
were between cupcakes and cottage cheese. As we shopped, I'd note
things he asked for that weren't already accounted for on the list -
item, price, aisle. Once we were done with the basic shopping, I'd
have a rough running total of the cost and I'd let him know what the
budget could handle. We'd go over his list and figure out his
options.
between current, existing health issues (nut allergy for example)
and "potential" health issues which may or may not arise. Limiting
on the "odds" and operating from fear of this or that is limiting
indeed - for everyone. Information and support rather than
externally imposed limits allows a person to seek their own -safe-
path rather than seeking to get around the limits. What looks like a
safe path to you might not be the best path for your offspring - you
might for your own self need to limit how much purple corn you eat
but your offspring can eat more purple corn safely than you can.
Should your limits apply to them?
--Deb
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>We just had a fondue dinner - cheese fondue with French bread and
> On 4/17/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >We did a "totally chocolate dinner" one time because they
> > thought it would be wonderful.
> >
> > They are also old enough to understand that they felt bad b/c of
>what they
> > ate.
chocolate fondue with marshmallows, strawberries, graham crackers,
angel cake, and banana chunks. Both on the table at the same time
(actually, the chocolate was there first, the cheese took a bit more
work to get the consistency right). DS (almost 8, not a 'grown up'
by any stretch) had a few marshmallows covered in chocolate. Then
the cheese fondue hit the table and he alternated randomly between
the two and probably ate as much of the cheese fondue as I did.
> Just because a child doesn't recognize the connection doesn't meanWhen DS was about 5 (maybe a little younger), we noted a connection
>we can
> help them see the connection. That's parenting. Lack of
>limitations does
> not mean we don't inform our children about things.
between his protein intake (food in general, especially proteins)
and his behavior. He'd get to doing something he -knew- was
irritating, potentially hazardous, etc and when requested to stop,
he'd say "my brain won't let me stop" or something similar. His
tolerance for frustration would plummet and meltdowns would occur.
When the connection clicked in my head I said "Hey how about we go
get a PBJ and talk about this. Would you like grape or strawberry
jam?" (or something to that effect) and when he was munching I told
him I noticed that if he had some protein regularly (not a whole lot
even necessarily - a tbl of PB, a slice or two of cheese, whatever),
he didn't get so frustrated as easily. Now he's so used to it, he
almost doesn't think twice about just going and finding food when he
starts feeling that 'oddness'. And, we continue to offer or just
have available for him (like making some crackers and cheese to take
to him while he's playing a video game) various foods - just because
he understands it doesn't mean we don't continue to help and be
available for him. He is also in on/overhearing our discussions
related to things like DH's hypertension - sodium, potassium,
cholesterol, etc. He's probably more conscientious about checking
labels than I am. One time, he was maybe 5ish, we had picked up a
pizza to take home and we stopped to pick up some soda to go with it
(don't know about you but pizza needs carbonated beverages). DS
stood looking at the selection and then picked up the Sprite and
read the sodium level. Then he picked up the root beer and checked
the sodium level. And chose the one with less sodium because "this
is better for Daddy's blood pressure". The cashier at the mini-mart
(who was close enough to hear the whole thing) got a kick out of his
choosing. We talk (not teach not lecture but discuss as it arises)
about things like HFCS, what 'organic' means, and so on.
> What age did you startThe day he was born and began nursing on demand. Really. His only
> > "trusting your children to experience food".
limits were set by real life things - like when we ran out of
oranges or Cheerios. Those items would wait until the next grocery
trip. A limit set not by us as far as "we have 6 oranges but you can
only have two today" but rather the reality of sometimes all the
oranges are gone and pay day is Friday and we'll get more then. Oh,
and he had input from the time he could talk and point as to what we
bought. From early on, we'd discuss having to choose between A and B
because of our food money. By age 4 or 5 we'd go to the market
together and he'd choose between things as necessary (if we were
coming in low on the budget he could get A and B but if it was
getting tight he could get A or B - his choice). Sometimes his
choices were between pudding and cupcakes. Sometimes his choices
were between cupcakes and cottage cheese. As we shopped, I'd note
things he asked for that weren't already accounted for on the list -
item, price, aisle. Once we were done with the basic shopping, I'd
have a rough running total of the cost and I'd let him know what the
budget could handle. We'd go over his list and figure out his
options.
>As far as health issues, one thing I want to note is the difference
between current, existing health issues (nut allergy for example)
and "potential" health issues which may or may not arise. Limiting
on the "odds" and operating from fear of this or that is limiting
indeed - for everyone. Information and support rather than
externally imposed limits allows a person to seek their own -safe-
path rather than seeking to get around the limits. What looks like a
safe path to you might not be the best path for your offspring - you
might for your own self need to limit how much purple corn you eat
but your offspring can eat more purple corn safely than you can.
Should your limits apply to them?
--Deb