RE: [unschoolingbasics] Digest Number 874 - intro/concerns...coffee , etc.
Misty Felner
As for the coffee and food let me elaborate. Yes I do put some limitations
on my daughter. She's 2.5 and I feel at this age she needs guidance as to
what is good for her to learn to make good decisions. I also feel that
realistically in life the majority of people have limitations, things they
can and can't do on the job, in public, etc. I am an unschooler not a
radical unschooler. When it comes to food she has been making decisions
about what she wants since she was 14 months old. She knows that some foods
help you grow and some don't. She also knows which of these are acceptable
for her to eat and which aren't. I never lie to her about food. Carob
chips are candy to her b/c that's what she compares it to. When she asks to
taste something generally we let her. For example last Halloween we took
her trick or treating. She didn't know what candy was, all she understood
was that it was something the older kids (trick or treaters that came to our
door) coveted. She played with the few pieces of candy she got and when she
finally got one open she took a few licks and that was that. She's never
asked for candy again, but she knows it's something you shouldn't eat often
because it doesn't help you grow. BTW we handed out pretzels not candy. I
am aware that the forbidden fruit is always the most tempting so when she
asks I generally allow a small taste. But there are things we consume that
I don't feel are appropriate for 2.5 you may disagree and that is your
choice. My daughter didn't start drinking juice until she was close to 2.
We never offered and she never asked. When she did decide she wanted to
taster ours we let her. Coffee and soda I just don't feel are appropriate.
That's my opinion others can do as they see fit for their kids. Those of
you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting her taste it
would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at 2.5) and if
your child decided they liked it what then. Maybe you feel it's okay for a
child of that age to have a taste of coffee, alcohol, soda, whatever if it's
only a taste and not very often I don't, and I don't feel I'm limiting her
freedom by not allowing her to taste it, nor do I feel I'm doing any harm by
explaining to her the reason why it's ok for me to have it not her. Maybe
it's not a good example of me, but it also shows that there are times it's
okay to have things you want even when they're not the best for you.
Joyce wrote:
What you're doing is creating a mystique about coffee (as people
often do about alcohol). It becomes not just a drink made with coffee
beans but a rite of passage to adulthood,
I appreciated this comment. It has some truth, but I don't think, speaking
specifically about coffee, that she'll be limited long enough for it to have
any grave mystique to her.
Joyce wrote:
But that comforting bubble bursts when they get older and realize
there are foods that sound interesting that they'd like to try. Or
things they try other places that they'd like you to buy.
I know this is true which is why I'm hoping to help shape her tastes now so
that the foods that she'd like to try are in general foods that would be
good for her.
I wrote:
How would it sound if you heard a parent say "we go up to a week at a
time with her not even asking to read a book"?
How many people zone out reading a book?
Joyce wrote:
TV is not a demon. 2.5 yos often don't watch much if it isn't on.
(At 3 though, it seems not uncommon to want to watch the same video
or movie or set of shows over and over and over. It's a stage of
development that does pass.)
I don't consider it to be a demon, my husband and I enjoy watching and so
does she. When she asks to watch something she is allowed.
on my daughter. She's 2.5 and I feel at this age she needs guidance as to
what is good for her to learn to make good decisions. I also feel that
realistically in life the majority of people have limitations, things they
can and can't do on the job, in public, etc. I am an unschooler not a
radical unschooler. When it comes to food she has been making decisions
about what she wants since she was 14 months old. She knows that some foods
help you grow and some don't. She also knows which of these are acceptable
for her to eat and which aren't. I never lie to her about food. Carob
chips are candy to her b/c that's what she compares it to. When she asks to
taste something generally we let her. For example last Halloween we took
her trick or treating. She didn't know what candy was, all she understood
was that it was something the older kids (trick or treaters that came to our
door) coveted. She played with the few pieces of candy she got and when she
finally got one open she took a few licks and that was that. She's never
asked for candy again, but she knows it's something you shouldn't eat often
because it doesn't help you grow. BTW we handed out pretzels not candy. I
am aware that the forbidden fruit is always the most tempting so when she
asks I generally allow a small taste. But there are things we consume that
I don't feel are appropriate for 2.5 you may disagree and that is your
choice. My daughter didn't start drinking juice until she was close to 2.
We never offered and she never asked. When she did decide she wanted to
taster ours we let her. Coffee and soda I just don't feel are appropriate.
That's my opinion others can do as they see fit for their kids. Those of
you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting her taste it
would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at 2.5) and if
your child decided they liked it what then. Maybe you feel it's okay for a
child of that age to have a taste of coffee, alcohol, soda, whatever if it's
only a taste and not very often I don't, and I don't feel I'm limiting her
freedom by not allowing her to taste it, nor do I feel I'm doing any harm by
explaining to her the reason why it's ok for me to have it not her. Maybe
it's not a good example of me, but it also shows that there are times it's
okay to have things you want even when they're not the best for you.
Joyce wrote:
What you're doing is creating a mystique about coffee (as people
often do about alcohol). It becomes not just a drink made with coffee
beans but a rite of passage to adulthood,
I appreciated this comment. It has some truth, but I don't think, speaking
specifically about coffee, that she'll be limited long enough for it to have
any grave mystique to her.
Joyce wrote:
But that comforting bubble bursts when they get older and realize
there are foods that sound interesting that they'd like to try. Or
things they try other places that they'd like you to buy.
I know this is true which is why I'm hoping to help shape her tastes now so
that the foods that she'd like to try are in general foods that would be
good for her.
I wrote:
> Sometimes we go up to a week at a time withJoyce responded:
> her not even asking to watch TV.
How would it sound if you heard a parent say "we go up to a week at a
time with her not even asking to read a book"?
How many people zone out reading a book?
Joyce wrote:
TV is not a demon. 2.5 yos often don't watch much if it isn't on.
(At 3 though, it seems not uncommon to want to watch the same video
or movie or set of shows over and over and over. It's a stage of
development that does pass.)
I don't consider it to be a demon, my husband and I enjoy watching and so
does she. When she asks to watch something she is allowed.
Sylvia Toyama
Those of you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting her taste it would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at 2.5) and if your child decided they liked it what then. Maybe you feel it's okay for a child of that age to have a taste of coffee, alcohol, soda, whatever if it's only a taste and not very often I don't, and I don't feel I'm limiting her freedom by not allowing her to taste it, nor do I feel I'm doing any harm by explaining to her the reason why it's ok for me to have it not her.
******
Well, coffee isn't a margarita (and I don't drink either one) so your example isn't valid. I have let my boys have a taste of wine when I'm having a glass (maybe 3 times a week) if they'd like. My oldest and youngest have liked it on occasion. Andy won't touch the stuff -- can't get past the smell of it.
If the only reason it's okay for you to have it and not her is your advanced age, you've already made it forbidden fruit, something to covet for when she's able to get away with it.
Sylvia,
Mom to
Will, 21 and out on his own, Andy, almost 10 and Dan, 5
Let the beauty you love be what you do -- Rumi
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
******
Well, coffee isn't a margarita (and I don't drink either one) so your example isn't valid. I have let my boys have a taste of wine when I'm having a glass (maybe 3 times a week) if they'd like. My oldest and youngest have liked it on occasion. Andy won't touch the stuff -- can't get past the smell of it.
If the only reason it's okay for you to have it and not her is your advanced age, you've already made it forbidden fruit, something to covet for when she's able to get away with it.
Sylvia,
Mom to
Will, 21 and out on his own, Andy, almost 10 and Dan, 5
Let the beauty you love be what you do -- Rumi
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daniel MacIntyre
In Europe children are introduced to alcohol at an early age as a matter of
course. Often children are served beer or wine with dinner. Of course, I
don't say that it's okay just because Europeans do it. I'm just saying that
the "would you let your child drink alcohol" argument may not be as strong
as you might think it is.
course. Often children are served beer or wine with dinner. Of course, I
don't say that it's okay just because Europeans do it. I'm just saying that
the "would you let your child drink alcohol" argument may not be as strong
as you might think it is.
On 4/17/06, Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...> wrote:
>
> Those of you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting
> her taste it would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at
> 2.5) and if your child decided they liked it what then. Maybe you feel
> it's okay for a child of that age to have a taste of coffee, alcohol, soda,
> whatever if it's only a taste and not very often I don't, and I don't feel
> I'm limiting her freedom by not allowing her to taste it, nor do I feel I'm
> doing any harm by explaining to her the reason why it's ok for me to have it
> not her.
>
> ******
>
> Well, coffee isn't a margarita (and I don't drink either one) so your
> example isn't valid. I have let my boys have a taste of wine when I'm
> having a glass (maybe 3 times a week) if they'd like. My oldest and
> youngest have liked it on occasion. Andy won't touch the stuff -- can't get
> past the smell of it.
>
> If the only reason it's okay for you to have it and not her is your
> advanced age, you've already made it forbidden fruit, something to covet for
> when she's able to get away with it.
>
>
>
> Sylvia,
> Mom to
> Will, 21 and out on his own, Andy, almost 10 and Dan, 5
>
> Let the beauty you love be what you do -- Rumi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just
> 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Daniel
( Blogging at http://key-words.blogspot.com/ )
"When the solution is simple, God is answering."
Albert Einstein
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/16/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
feelings that food can have on her body how will she truly be able to make
good decisions? We did a "totally chocolate dinner" one time because they
thought it would be wonderful. They felt awful! They hated the way that
they felt and hated how sluggish and slow they were. Their conclusion was
that eating only chocolate may taste delicious but it does nothing to give
you energy. My girls are limitless because they are able to make informed
experience-based decisions about what to eat.
She knows that some foods
believe everything your parents told you when you were growing up "because
they said so?" And the foods that are "acceptable" are acceptable only to
you. Have you read some of the articles on food limitations at Sandra
Dodd's website. I never believed them when we first started unschooling
until I trusted my children to experience food and not have labels on food
such as "good" and "bad." Chocoate isn't bad (in fact in my world chocolate
is very very good :) ) Chocolate is just chocolate. It is how much we eat
and how often we eat it and how much we eat it that effects our body and
what we do with the energy it gives us. If we eat a "totally chocolate
dinner" we may not feel so good and crave something different to eat. When
children don't have "bad foods" limited to them they choose foods that their
bodies ask for rather than what their brain tells them they should have.
I grew up with major food issues. Foods were categorized for me into "good"
and "bad" (can someone tell me how okra made it on the good list?) Now that
I am in my 40's I STILL have labels for food. Good foods and bad foods. I
STILL sneak cookies and eat them in hiding so that no one will see me eating
"bad food." I'm forty years old. I'm an adult. And I still sneak food.
Those of
experiences. Would I let my child have a sip of my margarita? Sure. And I
have. And they generally go, "Oh, OK. Kind of sweet, but buzzy." We've
talked about alcohol use and abuse. I have a family of alcoholics (not my
parents but my aunts and uncles) so my kids know from experiencing my drunk
relatives what alcohol can do to a person. Will that stop them from getting
drunk when they are older? No. Probably not. That is something they may
want to experience. However, I would hazard to guess that they will
probably get really drunk once (or maybe twice) and think, "Man, I hate the
way I feel the night after and am not so sure that the pleasure the night
before is worth the thowing up the next morning." Sort of like a totally
chocolate dinner.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>If you limit her food and she never experiences the various physical
>
> As for the coffee and food let me elaborate. Yes I do put some
> limitations
> on my daughter. She's 2.5 and I feel at this age she needs guidance as to
> what is good for her to learn to make good decisions.
feelings that food can have on her body how will she truly be able to make
good decisions? We did a "totally chocolate dinner" one time because they
thought it would be wonderful. They felt awful! They hated the way that
they felt and hated how sluggish and slow they were. Their conclusion was
that eating only chocolate may taste delicious but it does nothing to give
you energy. My girls are limitless because they are able to make informed
experience-based decisions about what to eat.
She knows that some foods
> help you grow and some don't. She also knows which of these areHow does she know this? Because you have told her it is so? Did you
> acceptable
> for her to eat and which aren't.
believe everything your parents told you when you were growing up "because
they said so?" And the foods that are "acceptable" are acceptable only to
you. Have you read some of the articles on food limitations at Sandra
Dodd's website. I never believed them when we first started unschooling
until I trusted my children to experience food and not have labels on food
such as "good" and "bad." Chocoate isn't bad (in fact in my world chocolate
is very very good :) ) Chocolate is just chocolate. It is how much we eat
and how often we eat it and how much we eat it that effects our body and
what we do with the energy it gives us. If we eat a "totally chocolate
dinner" we may not feel so good and crave something different to eat. When
children don't have "bad foods" limited to them they choose foods that their
bodies ask for rather than what their brain tells them they should have.
I grew up with major food issues. Foods were categorized for me into "good"
and "bad" (can someone tell me how okra made it on the good list?) Now that
I am in my 40's I STILL have labels for food. Good foods and bad foods. I
STILL sneak cookies and eat them in hiding so that no one will see me eating
"bad food." I'm forty years old. I'm an adult. And I still sneak food.
Those of
> you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting her tasteNot only are you limiting her freedom you are also limiting her
> it
> would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at 2.5) and if
> your child decided they liked it what then.
experiences. Would I let my child have a sip of my margarita? Sure. And I
have. And they generally go, "Oh, OK. Kind of sweet, but buzzy." We've
talked about alcohol use and abuse. I have a family of alcoholics (not my
parents but my aunts and uncles) so my kids know from experiencing my drunk
relatives what alcohol can do to a person. Will that stop them from getting
drunk when they are older? No. Probably not. That is something they may
want to experience. However, I would hazard to guess that they will
probably get really drunk once (or maybe twice) and think, "Man, I hate the
way I feel the night after and am not so sure that the pleasure the night
before is worth the thowing up the next morning." Sort of like a totally
chocolate dinner.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Pampered Chef Michelle <pamperedmichelle@...
(can someone tell me how okra made it on the good list?)
-=-=-
It's on MY good list!!! <g>
I just ordered some from Park Seed---just minutes ago!
I like it steamed, fried, pickled, stewed, gumboed---I like okra!
Plus, it's a *stunning* plant! Beautiful in the garden!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Pampered Chef Michelle <pamperedmichelle@...
(can someone tell me how okra made it on the good list?)
-=-=-
It's on MY good list!!! <g>
I just ordered some from Park Seed---just minutes ago!
I like it steamed, fried, pickled, stewed, gumboed---I like okra!
Plus, it's a *stunning* plant! Beautiful in the garden!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Sher
okay im curious than. if there are no limits whatsoever, how do you keep your children from running out into the street? from jumping off a high building or a bridge? im thinking there has to be some limits? i mean eventually they have to live in a society full of rules as an adult and not everyone will be able to own their own business and will probably have to work for someone else. how will they learn they have to follow the rules to keep a job? or even to follow the law? what if when they are teenagers they want to experiment with illegal drugs? and what if they do and get busted and end up in jail, the ultimate limiting experience? i am not trying to challenge anyone, im just really curious? i wrote a couple of weeks ago about the unschooling thing and since then i found that my son went crazy with boredom. he just isnt the type of child to self motivate! we are still trying to find our way.
sher
sher
----- Original Message -----
From: Pampered Chef Michelle
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Digest Number 874 - intro/concerns...coffee , etc.
On 4/16/06, Misty Felner <misty@...> wrote:
>
>
> As for the coffee and food let me elaborate. Yes I do put some
> limitations
> on my daughter. She's 2.5 and I feel at this age she needs guidance as to
> what is good for her to learn to make good decisions.
If you limit her food and she never experiences the various physical
feelings that food can have on her body how will she truly be able to make
good decisions? We did a "totally chocolate dinner" one time because they
thought it would be wonderful. They felt awful! They hated the way that
they felt and hated how sluggish and slow they were. Their conclusion was
that eating only chocolate may taste delicious but it does nothing to give
you energy. My girls are limitless because they are able to make informed
experience-based decisions about what to eat.
She knows that some foods
> help you grow and some don't. She also knows which of these are
> acceptable
> for her to eat and which aren't.
How does she know this? Because you have told her it is so? Did you
believe everything your parents told you when you were growing up "because
they said so?" And the foods that are "acceptable" are acceptable only to
you. Have you read some of the articles on food limitations at Sandra
Dodd's website. I never believed them when we first started unschooling
until I trusted my children to experience food and not have labels on food
such as "good" and "bad." Chocoate isn't bad (in fact in my world chocolate
is very very good :) ) Chocolate is just chocolate. It is how much we eat
and how often we eat it and how much we eat it that effects our body and
what we do with the energy it gives us. If we eat a "totally chocolate
dinner" we may not feel so good and crave something different to eat. When
children don't have "bad foods" limited to them they choose foods that their
bodies ask for rather than what their brain tells them they should have.
I grew up with major food issues. Foods were categorized for me into "good"
and "bad" (can someone tell me how okra made it on the good list?) Now that
I am in my 40's I STILL have labels for food. Good foods and bad foods. I
STILL sneak cookies and eat them in hiding so that no one will see me eating
"bad food." I'm forty years old. I'm an adult. And I still sneak food.
Those of
> you who responded that I'm limiting her freedom by not letting her taste
> it
> would you also let your child have a sip of your margarita (at 2.5) and if
> your child decided they liked it what then.
Not only are you limiting her freedom you are also limiting her
experiences. Would I let my child have a sip of my margarita? Sure. And I
have. And they generally go, "Oh, OK. Kind of sweet, but buzzy." We've
talked about alcohol use and abuse. I have a family of alcoholics (not my
parents but my aunts and uncles) so my kids know from experiencing my drunk
relatives what alcohol can do to a person. Will that stop them from getting
drunk when they are older? No. Probably not. That is something they may
want to experience. However, I would hazard to guess that they will
probably get really drunk once (or maybe twice) and think, "Man, I hate the
way I feel the night after and am not so sure that the pleasure the night
before is worth the thowing up the next morning." Sort of like a totally
chocolate dinner.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/17/06, Sher <mamasbakerybarn@...> wrote:
"common sense" things like stove burners are hot and sticking your tongue to
a metal pole during winter is not. And yes; we do teach our children not to
run out in the street, but we tell them WHY they shouldn't run out into the
street and then teach them how to safely cross the street or go out into
the street to retrieve something. I've witnessed countless mothers yelling
at their children, "You don't run out into the street. Ever!" No
explaination. My oldest child taught me early on that I could not have
"because I said so" rules. She would have deliberately run out into the
street just to test a "because I said so rule." When she was less than 2
years old I learned that she needed explainations as to why things are so.
When our children are near a street or in a parking lot we never say, "don't
run out in the street" we say, "Look for cars." And as parents it is our
responsibility to protect our children from the dangers of cars and
strangers and stampeding wildebeasts and to help them learn to protect
themselves from the dangers of cars strangers and stampeding wildebeasts.
My brother would be a great unschooler if he would trust himself. He rarely
tells his daughter that there is something she can't do. She wanted to help
fix the roof of the church they attend after Hurricane Ivan, so my brother
taught her how to safely walk on the roof and what to do if she thought she
was losing her balance. I think she was around 9 years old at the time. So
there she was on top of the roof scampering around and pulling up old
shingles. Another time she wanted to swim out to a sand bar at the beach.
Rather than telling her that it was too far or too dangerous, he suggested
that they swim out there together. Both of them are very good swimmers.
Later my son wanted to go out to the sand bar. He is not a very good
swimmer (he's a great flailer though). So rather than telling him no, my
brother got one of the small float boats we had been using, loaded my son up
on it and towed him to the sand bar which was just teeming with all kinds of
little creatures. What a great day that was for him. He was not limited in
what he wanted to do. He was provided with a safe means to do so.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Those are natural limits. Natural limits are all around us. They are the
> okay im curious than. if there are no limits whatsoever, how do you keep
> your children from running out into the street? from jumping off a high
> building or a bridge? im thinking there has to be some limits?
"common sense" things like stove burners are hot and sticking your tongue to
a metal pole during winter is not. And yes; we do teach our children not to
run out in the street, but we tell them WHY they shouldn't run out into the
street and then teach them how to safely cross the street or go out into
the street to retrieve something. I've witnessed countless mothers yelling
at their children, "You don't run out into the street. Ever!" No
explaination. My oldest child taught me early on that I could not have
"because I said so" rules. She would have deliberately run out into the
street just to test a "because I said so rule." When she was less than 2
years old I learned that she needed explainations as to why things are so.
When our children are near a street or in a parking lot we never say, "don't
run out in the street" we say, "Look for cars." And as parents it is our
responsibility to protect our children from the dangers of cars and
strangers and stampeding wildebeasts and to help them learn to protect
themselves from the dangers of cars strangers and stampeding wildebeasts.
My brother would be a great unschooler if he would trust himself. He rarely
tells his daughter that there is something she can't do. She wanted to help
fix the roof of the church they attend after Hurricane Ivan, so my brother
taught her how to safely walk on the roof and what to do if she thought she
was losing her balance. I think she was around 9 years old at the time. So
there she was on top of the roof scampering around and pulling up old
shingles. Another time she wanted to swim out to a sand bar at the beach.
Rather than telling her that it was too far or too dangerous, he suggested
that they swim out there together. Both of them are very good swimmers.
Later my son wanted to go out to the sand bar. He is not a very good
swimmer (he's a great flailer though). So rather than telling him no, my
brother got one of the small float boats we had been using, loaded my son up
on it and towed him to the sand bar which was just teeming with all kinds of
little creatures. What a great day that was for him. He was not limited in
what he wanted to do. He was provided with a safe means to do so.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanne
Hello Sher...
I'm not going to reply to the first part of your post (about limits)
because we're still on that path and besides, Ren's reply was excellent
(I saved it), but I'd like to offer some advice for this part:
the type of child to self motivate! we are still trying to find our
way.>>>>
Have you read much about deschooling? There's a period of time (after
leaving school or structured school-at-home) where a child needs time
to...chill out, deprogram, unwind, get in touch with themselves, etc.
This may look like restlessness, boredom, etc.
What type of things does he enjoy AND what type of things have you been
suggesting and offering to him?
As far as self-motivation....how long was your son in school? I believe
that school can squash any motivation a child has and it may take some
time to gain that back. My kids went through that also...school showed
them that learning has to be spoon fed and handed to them so when I
took them out of school, they sat back and waited for me to feed
them/teach them. Instead, I bought some cool new games and craft kits,
bought season passes to a nature park and also to a water park right
near us, read with them and to them just about every day, took us all
to get library cards and joined blockbuster online.
Now, a year later, my girls are motivated because it's *their* life,
and *their* thoughts and they feel free (probably for the first time in
their lives-we adopted them after they had grown up in the foster care
system). They want to learn because it makes their life interesting.
Like you, we're still trying to find our way but we're really, really
enjoying the journey. I hope it never ends. :-)
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
I'm not going to reply to the first part of your post (about limits)
because we're still on that path and besides, Ren's reply was excellent
(I saved it), but I'd like to offer some advice for this part:
>>>>>i wrote a couple of weeks ago about the unschooling thing andsince then i found that my son went crazy with boredom. he just isnt
the type of child to self motivate! we are still trying to find our
way.>>>>
Have you read much about deschooling? There's a period of time (after
leaving school or structured school-at-home) where a child needs time
to...chill out, deprogram, unwind, get in touch with themselves, etc.
This may look like restlessness, boredom, etc.
What type of things does he enjoy AND what type of things have you been
suggesting and offering to him?
As far as self-motivation....how long was your son in school? I believe
that school can squash any motivation a child has and it may take some
time to gain that back. My kids went through that also...school showed
them that learning has to be spoon fed and handed to them so when I
took them out of school, they sat back and waited for me to feed
them/teach them. Instead, I bought some cool new games and craft kits,
bought season passes to a nature park and also to a water park right
near us, read with them and to them just about every day, took us all
to get library cards and joined blockbuster online.
Now, a year later, my girls are motivated because it's *their* life,
and *their* thoughts and they feel free (probably for the first time in
their lives-we adopted them after they had grown up in the foster care
system). They want to learn because it makes their life interesting.
Like you, we're still trying to find our way but we're really, really
enjoying the journey. I hope it never ends. :-)
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Sher <mamasbakerybarn@...>
***okay im curious than. if there are no limits whatsoever,***
-=-=-=-
No one said that. What we suggest is no ARBITRARY limits.
-=-=-=-
*** how do you keep your children from running out into the street?
from jumping off a high building or
a bridge? ***
-=-=-=-
Puh-leeze!
If a child is so small that streets are a issue, mom should carry the
child or hold his hand.
How often do you leave a small child at the top of a high building or
bridge alone and unsupervised???
If streets, high buildings, and bridges are your concerns, maybe you
have bigger problems!
-=-=-=-=--=
**** im thinking there has to be some limits? ***
-=-=-=-
I'm glad you're thinking! <g>
There are natural limits. There are self-imposed limits. There are
societal limits.
There are arbitrary, parent-imposed limits.
Which limits do you suppose we suggest? <g>
-=-=-=-
**** i mean eventually they have to live in a society full of rules as
an adult ****
-=-=-
*I* have lived in a world full of limits since I was a very small
child. I get to choose which ones I will live with, follow, bend,
ignore. So do my children.
-=-=-=-=-
***and not everyone will be able to own their own business and will
probably have to work for someone else. ***
-=-=-=-
I'd venture to guess that *most* unschoolers will eventually BOTH work
for someone else AND own their own business(es). But they don't HAVE to
do either. They get to choose.
-=-=-=-
***how will they learn they have to follow the rules to keep a job? ***
-=-=-=-
Is this a real question?
-=-=-=-
*** or even to follow the law? ***
-=-=-=-
Surely THIS isn't a real question!
-=--=-
***what if when they are teenagers they want to experiment with illegal
drugs? ***
-=-=-=-
And you plan to stop them.....HOW?????
-=-=-=-
****and what if they do and get busted and end up in jail, the ultimate
limiting experience? ****
-=-=-=-=-
Societal limits, hard at work...
-=-=-=-
**** i am not trying to challenge anyone, im just really curious? *****
-=-=-=-=-
But I don't think you've asked *yourself* any of these questions. Have
you asked yourself? Have you come up with an answer or two? What do
*YOU* think would happen?
-=-=-=-
***i wrote a couple of weeks ago about the unschooling thing and since
then i found that my son went crazy with boredom. we are still trying
to find our way. ****
-=-=-=-
What do you mean "went crazy with boredom"? Did you just quit giving
him assignments? Did you say, "Just do whatever"?
Did you take him out to an ethnic restaurant? Watch movies together? Go
to the beach? Look for fossils? Plant a butterfly garden? Make candles?
Play with puppies at the animal shelter? Play video games with him?
Make sushi? Look at the stars? Paint/decorate his bedroom? Play rummy?
Go to the zoo? Fly a kite? Look at maps? Make spaghetti? Roll coins?
Pressure-wash the house? Buy a second-hand guitar? Swim at the Y? Make
Artist Trading Cards? Plant zucchini? ...or OKRA(!) <g>?
What didn't *you* do with him that made him so bored?
Everyone (who is healthy) is self-motivated to do something. It
probably WON'T look like schoolwork, but generally unschooling does NOT
look like schoolwork (and you will just have to get over that). Real
learning happens as a part of living. Were you making his world small?
Or opening it up and making it bigger?
-=-=-=-
*** he just isnt the type of child to self motivate!***
-=-=-=-
I hope you think better of him than that. And I *really* hope you've
never said that to him!
How old is he? Have you always homeschooled? Did you just pull him out
of school? Have you given him time to deschool? What are his passions?
What "will he do all day if you let him"?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Sher <mamasbakerybarn@...>
***okay im curious than. if there are no limits whatsoever,***
-=-=-=-
No one said that. What we suggest is no ARBITRARY limits.
-=-=-=-
*** how do you keep your children from running out into the street?
from jumping off a high building or
a bridge? ***
-=-=-=-
Puh-leeze!
If a child is so small that streets are a issue, mom should carry the
child or hold his hand.
How often do you leave a small child at the top of a high building or
bridge alone and unsupervised???
If streets, high buildings, and bridges are your concerns, maybe you
have bigger problems!
-=-=-=-=--=
**** im thinking there has to be some limits? ***
-=-=-=-
I'm glad you're thinking! <g>
There are natural limits. There are self-imposed limits. There are
societal limits.
There are arbitrary, parent-imposed limits.
Which limits do you suppose we suggest? <g>
-=-=-=-
**** i mean eventually they have to live in a society full of rules as
an adult ****
-=-=-
*I* have lived in a world full of limits since I was a very small
child. I get to choose which ones I will live with, follow, bend,
ignore. So do my children.
-=-=-=-=-
***and not everyone will be able to own their own business and will
probably have to work for someone else. ***
-=-=-=-
I'd venture to guess that *most* unschoolers will eventually BOTH work
for someone else AND own their own business(es). But they don't HAVE to
do either. They get to choose.
-=-=-=-
***how will they learn they have to follow the rules to keep a job? ***
-=-=-=-
Is this a real question?
-=-=-=-
*** or even to follow the law? ***
-=-=-=-
Surely THIS isn't a real question!
-=--=-
***what if when they are teenagers they want to experiment with illegal
drugs? ***
-=-=-=-
And you plan to stop them.....HOW?????
-=-=-=-
****and what if they do and get busted and end up in jail, the ultimate
limiting experience? ****
-=-=-=-=-
Societal limits, hard at work...
-=-=-=-
**** i am not trying to challenge anyone, im just really curious? *****
-=-=-=-=-
But I don't think you've asked *yourself* any of these questions. Have
you asked yourself? Have you come up with an answer or two? What do
*YOU* think would happen?
-=-=-=-
***i wrote a couple of weeks ago about the unschooling thing and since
then i found that my son went crazy with boredom. we are still trying
to find our way. ****
-=-=-=-
What do you mean "went crazy with boredom"? Did you just quit giving
him assignments? Did you say, "Just do whatever"?
Did you take him out to an ethnic restaurant? Watch movies together? Go
to the beach? Look for fossils? Plant a butterfly garden? Make candles?
Play with puppies at the animal shelter? Play video games with him?
Make sushi? Look at the stars? Paint/decorate his bedroom? Play rummy?
Go to the zoo? Fly a kite? Look at maps? Make spaghetti? Roll coins?
Pressure-wash the house? Buy a second-hand guitar? Swim at the Y? Make
Artist Trading Cards? Plant zucchini? ...or OKRA(!) <g>?
What didn't *you* do with him that made him so bored?
Everyone (who is healthy) is self-motivated to do something. It
probably WON'T look like schoolwork, but generally unschooling does NOT
look like schoolwork (and you will just have to get over that). Real
learning happens as a part of living. Were you making his world small?
Or opening it up and making it bigger?
-=-=-=-
*** he just isnt the type of child to self motivate!***
-=-=-=-
I hope you think better of him than that. And I *really* hope you've
never said that to him!
How old is he? Have you always homeschooled? Did you just pull him out
of school? Have you given him time to deschool? What are his passions?
What "will he do all day if you let him"?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
aplan4life
Okay, I'm still a newbie and maybe not one who should be giving advice
but in this case, I can't help it. You ask these things as if our
established school systems and society are pumping out non-criminals
and those who are totally obedient. People break laws and go to jail,
people do drugs, people buck the system, people don't listen to their
employees and usually they'll get fired when they do, many children
argue and disagree with their parents...have been since FOREVER and
probably will continue to do so.
A parent modeling respect towards their spouse, a parent modeling
respect towards their children, a parent modeling respect to those
adults who are WORTHY of respect. A parent who puts on their
seatbelt, a parent who doesn't drive drunk, a parent who stays within
the speed limit (well, maybe a "few" miles over) a parent who doesn't
steal, etc....is absolutely the BEST ROLE MODEL in the world for a
child to be around and that betters their chances in this world and
society that they will live in as both children and adults. When
children are with their parents and other adults who model respect, it
has an OUTSTANDING chance of rubbing off on one's children without a
big effort. Also, what better example can a child fine of owning up
to one's mistakes? My children see my vulnerabilities, they see me
fail and they see me make corrections and apologize...they understand
that and I can see it in them (they're still working on it as am I)
too when they sincerely apologize to one another, when they say 'sorry
' and mean it, etc.
~Sandy Winn
http://relaxedhomeschool.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Sher" <mamasbakerybarn@...>
wrote:
how will they learn they have to follow the rules to keep a job? or
even to follow the law? what if when they are teenagers they want to
experiment with illegal drugs? and what if they do and get busted and
end up in jail, the ultimate limiting experience?
but in this case, I can't help it. You ask these things as if our
established school systems and society are pumping out non-criminals
and those who are totally obedient. People break laws and go to jail,
people do drugs, people buck the system, people don't listen to their
employees and usually they'll get fired when they do, many children
argue and disagree with their parents...have been since FOREVER and
probably will continue to do so.
A parent modeling respect towards their spouse, a parent modeling
respect towards their children, a parent modeling respect to those
adults who are WORTHY of respect. A parent who puts on their
seatbelt, a parent who doesn't drive drunk, a parent who stays within
the speed limit (well, maybe a "few" miles over) a parent who doesn't
steal, etc....is absolutely the BEST ROLE MODEL in the world for a
child to be around and that betters their chances in this world and
society that they will live in as both children and adults. When
children are with their parents and other adults who model respect, it
has an OUTSTANDING chance of rubbing off on one's children without a
big effort. Also, what better example can a child fine of owning up
to one's mistakes? My children see my vulnerabilities, they see me
fail and they see me make corrections and apologize...they understand
that and I can see it in them (they're still working on it as am I)
too when they sincerely apologize to one another, when they say 'sorry
' and mean it, etc.
~Sandy Winn
http://relaxedhomeschool.blogspot.com
--- In [email protected], "Sher" <mamasbakerybarn@...>
wrote:
how will they learn they have to follow the rules to keep a job? or
even to follow the law? what if when they are teenagers they want to
experiment with illegal drugs? and what if they do and get busted and
end up in jail, the ultimate limiting experience?
> sher
Maisha Khalfani
I'm sorry, I know I'm supposed to trim posts and all, but EVERYTHING Kelly said here resonated in me. It really made me think. I know I've VERY guilty of spending far too much time on the computer, or cleaning, and leaving my kids to play together, figuring that since they are siblings they can entertain each other. And then when it all erupts into bickering, I get annoyed because MY LIFE has been interrupted. How very sad of me - I'm just being honest.
What Kelly wrote has helped me to see what it means to unschool. It's not about letting my children run wild and do what they want. It's not about shirking my responsibility, but it's about embracing it. It's about spending actual time with my children, about getting to know them like I would a friend or someone I was dating. Unschooling is about being present with my children, and seeing them for who they are. Not who I wish they would be, or who I want them to be.
All of this is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than people realize. They think unschooling is easy. They think it's about letting your kids just "go". NO, unschooling is about being the most active parent you can possibly be. It's about putting away the workbook that you would have your child do, and spending that time with them doing and being. It's about playing a game and just laughing with your child - not playing a game "to learn something". It's about spending time with your child like you would spend with your best friend, or your partner - just enjoying their company. And that's far harder to do than sending them to public school, private school, or even buying a complete curriculum. But it's far more rewarding.
I'm so grateful for this group and the wisdom in it.
Maisha
http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html<http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html>
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
What Kelly wrote has helped me to see what it means to unschool. It's not about letting my children run wild and do what they want. It's not about shirking my responsibility, but it's about embracing it. It's about spending actual time with my children, about getting to know them like I would a friend or someone I was dating. Unschooling is about being present with my children, and seeing them for who they are. Not who I wish they would be, or who I want them to be.
All of this is MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than people realize. They think unschooling is easy. They think it's about letting your kids just "go". NO, unschooling is about being the most active parent you can possibly be. It's about putting away the workbook that you would have your child do, and spending that time with them doing and being. It's about playing a game and just laughing with your child - not playing a game "to learn something". It's about spending time with your child like you would spend with your best friend, or your partner - just enjoying their company. And that's far harder to do than sending them to public school, private school, or even buying a complete curriculum. But it's far more rewarding.
I'm so grateful for this group and the wisdom in it.
Maisha
http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html<http://www.geocities.com/maitai373/EarthSpirit.html>
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...<mailto:kbcdlovejo@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] - intro/concerns.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sher <mamasbakerybarn@...<mailto:mamasbakerybarn@...>>
***okay im curious than. if there are no limits whatsoever,***
-=-=-=-
No one said that. What we suggest is no ARBITRARY limits.
-=-=-=-
*** how do you keep your children from running out into the street?
from jumping off a high building or
a bridge? ***
-=-=-=-
Puh-leeze!
If a child is so small that streets are a issue, mom should carry the
child or hold his hand.
How often do you leave a small child at the top of a high building or
bridge alone and unsupervised???
If streets, high buildings, and bridges are your concerns, maybe you
have bigger problems!
-=-=-=-=--=
**** im thinking there has to be some limits? ***
-=-=-=-
I'm glad you're thinking! <g>
There are natural limits. There are self-imposed limits. There are
societal limits.
There are arbitrary, parent-imposed limits.
Which limits do you suppose we suggest? <g>
-=-=-=-
**** i mean eventually they have to live in a society full of rules as
an adult ****
-=-=-
*I* have lived in a world full of limits since I was a very small
child. I get to choose which ones I will live with, follow, bend,
ignore. So do my children.
-=-=-=-=-
***and not everyone will be able to own their own business and will
probably have to work for someone else. ***
-=-=-=-
I'd venture to guess that *most* unschoolers will eventually BOTH work
for someone else AND own their own business(es). But they don't HAVE to
do either. They get to choose.
-=-=-=-
***how will they learn they have to follow the rules to keep a job? ***
-=-=-=-
Is this a real question?
-=-=-=-
*** or even to follow the law? ***
-=-=-=-
Surely THIS isn't a real question!
-=--=-
***what if when they are teenagers they want to experiment with illegal
drugs? ***
-=-=-=-
And you plan to stop them.....HOW?????
-=-=-=-
****and what if they do and get busted and end up in jail, the ultimate
limiting experience? ****
-=-=-=-=-
Societal limits, hard at work...
-=-=-=-
**** i am not trying to challenge anyone, im just really curious? *****
-=-=-=-=-
But I don't think you've asked *yourself* any of these questions. Have
you asked yourself? Have you come up with an answer or two? What do
*YOU* think would happen?
-=-=-=-
***i wrote a couple of weeks ago about the unschooling thing and since
then i found that my son went crazy with boredom. we are still trying
to find our way. ****
-=-=-=-
What do you mean "went crazy with boredom"? Did you just quit giving
him assignments? Did you say, "Just do whatever"?
Did you take him out to an ethnic restaurant? Watch movies together? Go
to the beach? Look for fossils? Plant a butterfly garden? Make candles?
Play with puppies at the animal shelter? Play video games with him?
Make sushi? Look at the stars? Paint/decorate his bedroom? Play rummy?
Go to the zoo? Fly a kite? Look at maps? Make spaghetti? Roll coins?
Pressure-wash the house? Buy a second-hand guitar? Swim at the Y? Make
Artist Trading Cards? Plant zucchini? ...or OKRA(!) <g>?
What didn't *you* do with him that made him so bored?
Everyone (who is healthy) is self-motivated to do something. It
probably WON'T look like schoolwork, but generally unschooling does NOT
look like schoolwork (and you will just have to get over that). Real
learning happens as a part of living. Were you making his world small?
Or opening it up and making it bigger?
-=-=-=-
*** he just isnt the type of child to self motivate!***
-=-=-=-
I hope you think better of him than that. And I *really* hope you've
never said that to him!
How old is he? Have you always homeschooled? Did you just pull him out
of school? Have you given him time to deschool? What are his passions?
What "will he do all day if you let him"?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org<http://liveandlearnconference.org/>
SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Secondary+school+education&w1=Secondary+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=ZmtJ9eV8jDgLVf_rQitp3g> Graduate school education<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Graduate+school+education&w1=Secondary+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=_ar44lA2aVf7qUVJT2dfbA> Home school education<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Home+school+education&w1=Secondary+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=igfV0UPAcfSvC6KUmUYY6w>
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