Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 16, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Misty Felner wrote:

> Although we don't have the 5 color rule about food. I
> just don't keep the things I don't want her to eat in the house nor
> do I or
> my dh eat them in front of her.

When kids are young it's perfectly reasonable to bring into the home
and eat what you choose. No one has suggested bringing the entire
store home for them.

> On the rare occasion that we're having a
> special treat, say coffee I explain to her that it's something
> grown-ups
> drink that's not very really healthy and when she gets older she's
> welcome
> to try it.

Kind of a double standard. You get to freely choose the things you
think are unhealthy.

What you're doing is creating a mystique about coffee (as people
often do about alcohol). It becomes not just a drink made with coffee
beans but a rite of passage to adulthood, into being able to make
your own choices without someone else watching and judging your choices.

I bet if you offered her a taste she wouldn't like it and that would
be the end of that. (Some kids, of course, do like coffee, but not
usually. And the parents of those kids can chime in and relay what
really happens when kids drink coffee.)

> She doesn't eat cookies except
> for Earth's Best, her idea of candy is carob chips and ice cream is
> frozen
> pureed bananas and other fruit.

There's nothing wrong with filling our houses with the foods we enjoy
sharing.

Right now life is simple with one young child. I did the same when my
daughter was 2.5. She wasn't even sure what to do with a lollipop.

But that comforting bubble bursts when they get older and realize
there are foods that sound interesting that they'd like to try. Or
things they try other places that they'd like you to buy.

The problems come when we demonize food and make children feel bad
for wanting and liking things we have decided we don't want to put
into our own bodies. Making a child feel bad about wanting an Oreo
will cause way more damage than an Oreo eaten in joy.

> Sometimes we go up to a week at a time with
> her not even asking to watch TV.

How would it sound if you heard a parent say "we go up to a week at a
time with her not even asking to read a book"?

TV is not a demon. 2.5 yos often don't watch much if it isn't on.
(At 3 though, it seems not uncommon to want to watch the same video
or movie or set of shows over and over and over. It's a stage of
development that does pass.)

> We even have a scheduled bedtime routine.

Helping kids wind down and get ready for sleep with a routine helps
them a lot.

Setting 8PM (or whatever) as bedtime because you think that's the
time they need to go to bed to get enough sleep is interfering with
them learning how to listen to and respond to the needs of their
bodies. They learn to look at the clock to determine if they're
sleepy or not.

> We found it worked for us, b/c dd would get really cranky if she
> didn't go
> to bed.

Which means if you read a really good book you can't put down and
you're up to the wee hours and find yourself grumpy the next day,
that it's okay for your husband to forbid you to read in bed because
it will work for "us".

We can *help* kids. We can say "I noticed you're grumpy today. It's
probably because you didn't get a lot of sleep," as some information
so they can see the connection. That *doesn't* mean they therefore
should make the "right" choice next time. It means everything we
choose has consequences. Sometimes
putting up with the consequences is worth it for a while as something
new gets explore. We *can* tell them when they're tiredness is
overwhelming to speak calmly so we can help them.

We can trust them that they will learn from experience. We can be
their partners in helping them. We can trust that sometimes the
negative consequences are worth it to explore something. (And no,
freedom to explore doesn't mean kids will need to explore drugs and
alcohol and sex.)

And if a child *wants* to stay up we can help them learn to weigh the
pros against the cons. Sometimes the next day's tiredness will be
worth it. If we help them learn strategies to deal with the
grumpiness then they won't spread it around.

My daughter has no illusions about staying up late. She *has* stayed
up all night when she was 9 or 10ish. The fun of it has worn off.

It's way better for them to explore things and learn about what their
bodies need when the worst consequence is feeling cranky than wait
until their teens and the consequences of exploring their personal
limits can be permanent or deadly.

> I'm sure as our children get older we will both allow our children
> more
> freedom in their choices when it comes to food, bed, etc.

There are people here who have done both: controlled their first
children and given freedom to their later children. They can give you
a better idea of what the differences are between controlling them
until the parent thinks they're ready and being their partner,
trusting them to learn, helping them explore the world from the very
beginning.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aplan4life

And the parents of those kids can chime in and relay what
> really happens when kids drink coffee.)


One of my favorite childhood memories was of sipping coffee from
Grandpas coffee cup. :-) I love coffee today but it wasn't due to
grandpa's influences because it was black coffee (YUK). My morning
coffee addiction started after I joined the military and then it was
not until after my first year.

Anyway, what really happens? Well, every now and then my 8yo dd (this
started 4-5 years ago) and I will have mom/daughter afternoon
coffee/chat at the table while playing Yahtzee or Sorry. My son never
really liked it, so he rarely asks. It also depends on which kind of
coffee being offered. Brooke likes hers sweet so generally I poor
HALF a cup of java, a spoonful of sugar or two and fill the rest with
half -n- half. I buy those $1 packs of flavored coffee now and then
and we quickly discover that some are just nasty which is fun because
our disgusted facial expressions are sure to follow.

Maybe the question should be...what doesn't happen if you never let
them try? :-) Seriously, you don't have to do a full cup of coffee,
add more milk or half and half...they only care that they are doing
what Mom/dad is doing, not about how many parts of coffee are in the
cup. If caffeine is the concern perhaps one could offer decaf?

~Respectfully
Sandra Winn

April Morris

>What you're doing is creating a mystique about coffee (as people
>often do about alcohol). It becomes not just a drink made with coffee
>beans but a rite of passage to adulthood, into being able to make
>your own choices without someone else watching and judging your choices.

>I bet if you offered her a taste she wouldn't like it and that would
>be the end of that. (Some kids, of course, do like coffee, but not
>usually. And the parents of those kids can chime in and relay what
>really happens when kids drink coffee.)

Karl used to love coffee. Now mind you, We like our coffee sweet here with
cream and sugar. When Karl was 2 or so he went through a good couple of
years where if anyone left coffee sitting around, he would finish it. At
that time of our lives, we often have visitors and over-night guests so it
wasn't unusual for there to be 3 or 4 half finished cups sitting around. Not
only did he survive the coffee, he survived all those germs, too! And now,
he doesn't particularly like coffee.

~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-17, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

April Morris

>We can trust them that they will learn from experience. We can be
>their partners in helping them. We can trust that sometimes the
>negative consequences are worth it to explore something. (And no,
>freedom to explore doesn't mean kids will need to explore drugs and
>alcohol and sex.)

>And if a child *wants* to stay up we can help them learn to weigh the
>pros against the cons. Sometimes the next day's tiredness will be
>worth it. If we help them learn strategies to deal with the
>grumpiness then they won't spread it around.

>My daughter has no illusions about staying up late. She *has* stayed
>up all night when she was 9 or 10ish. The fun of it has worn off.

>It's way better for them to explore things and learn about what their
>bodies need when the worst consequence is feeling cranky than wait
>until their teens and the consequences of exploring their personal
>limits can be permanent or deadly.

Another Karl story. Last night we had a large gathering of teens for a
Capture the Flag party. About 20 kids gathered and went to the nearby woods
for some Capture the Flag games. Then they all game back here for food and
hanging out. Some were in the living room listening to music, some were out
back on the patio around the fire-pit. Lots of fun. People starting leaving
around 10:00 and at 11:00 I made my rounds to those were left to say good
night and to remind my kids we had an early morning. I couldn't find Karl.
Finally someone said they thought he went to bed. My almost 15 year son was
exhausted and even with people over, decided to go to bed. By the time I
noticed, he was sound asleep. He had eaten and sat around the fire for a
while but when he was tired, he went to bed. They don't need to be made to
go to bed to figure this out.



~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-17, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art www.artkunst23.com
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kbcdlovejo@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: April Morris <klkb624@...>

. They don't need to be made to
go to bed to figure this out.


-=-=-=-

In fact, it can work *against* their knowing when they're really tired.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

Ellen Christian

Another option is to offer them herbal tea. I don't drink coffee because I cannot have it for health reasons but I do like herbal tea. My daughter (13) now has a cup of herbal tea each morning. My son (8) has expressed no interest in it. There are lots of different herbal teas but generally we have organic chamomile.

Ellen

aplan4life <aplan4life@...> wrote:
And the parents of those kids can chime in and relay what
> really happens when kids drink coffee.)


Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aplan4life

We gave up bedtime rules months ago. DS 'knows' when he is tired and
usually hits the sack between 8-9:30. DD is our night owl but
generally hits the hay when dh or I do. :-)

The other night, I went to bed at 10pm and was woke up by dh at 11:30
because he forgot his credit card at home, he was at a goodbye sendoff
at TGIF...anyway, dishes were clanking and I walked out and ds was
putting dishes away from the dishwasher...said that he didn't want me
to have to wake up in the morning and do them.

I LOVE THAT BOY! One of those heartwarming moments, again, and from a
mom who doesn't require chores. We ask for help sometimes but they
have no required chores.

--- In unschoolingbasics@yahoogroups.com, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: April Morris <klkb624@...>
>
> . They don't need to be made to
> go to bed to figure this out.
>
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> In fact, it can work *against* their knowing when they're really tired.
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://liveandlearnconference.org
>

Kristie Cochran

As I'm sitting here reading my emails, my 16mo is sitting on my lap
sipping my morning coffee. My DH jokes that the kids in his family went
from breastmilk to coffee, and ours are doing the same. Both of our
boys sip our coffee with no ill effects. Our older son (4.5yo) rarely
sips coffee anymore, but he did when he was little.

Kristie, a newbie

aplan4life

>Our older son (4.5yo) rarely
> sips coffee anymore, but he did when he was little.
>
> Kristie, a newbie

LOL...Christy, when your 4.5 year old WAS 'little'. :-)

Sandy Winn

Kristie Cochran

Yeah, he talks so well now we forget that he's still FOUR and treat him
like he's a teenager. My MIL was just here for a few days and had to
remind my DH that "he's only FOUR."

Kristie

aplan4life wrote:
>
>
> >Our older son (4.5yo) rarely
> > sips coffee anymore, but he did when he was little.
> >
> > Kristie, a newbie
>
> LOL...Christy, when your 4.5 year old WAS 'little'. :-)
>
> Sandy Winn

Deb Lewis

> On the rare occasion that we're having a
> special treat, say coffee I explain to her that it's something
> grown-ups
> drink that's not very really healthy and when she gets older she's
> welcome
> to try it.

My mom says I drank coffee when I was very little. She liked it with
cream and sugar so I suppose I liked it because it was sweet. My first
memory of coffee drinking is from when I was eight or nine. It's
possible I've been drinking coffee for forty years. Every other week
there's some report contradicting the last report about coffee being
healthy or unhealthy. I think stress over what's healthy or unhealthy is
more unhealthy than coffee. <g>

My friend and I each have colds. She's popping Cold Snap and juicing and
fasting and all manner of other healthy ritual and feels terrible,
thinking about seeing a doctor. I have some nice hot coffee in the
morning and feel ok without the herbs and ritual. I know that's
anecdotal but my point is a calm and fear free life even if it includes
things considered to be unhealthy contributes to health more than worry.


Your little girl probably doesn't care about coffee at all. Over time
you might make her care if it turns out she feels like she's missing
something.

>her idea of candy is carob chips and ice cream is
> frozen
> pureed bananas and other fruit.

I know some kids whose mom told them Kool-aid was soda pop. She thought
she was very clever. Never mind there's probably more sugar in Kool-aid
than in soda pop, I think her issue was caffeine.

Her kids spent the night with friends and discovered real soda pop. The
earth didn't stop and they didn't drop over dead but they did learn their
mother is a liar. They don't trust her and that has proven to be more
unhealthy in their young lives than if they'd had a can of Coke every day
for seven years.

There's nothing wrong with carob chips (if you like them, I'd rather eat
wax) or pureed frozen fruit (which I love) but I wouldn't call it candy
and ice cream. Those things are different and someday she'll know the
difference and it will be too late to undo your lie.

Deb Lewis

trektheory

--- In unschoolingbasics@yahoogroups.com, Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Misty Felner wrote:

>
> > On the rare occasion that we're having a
> > special treat, say coffee I explain to her that it's something
> > grown-ups
> > drink that's not very really healthy and when she gets older
she's
> > welcome
> > to try it.
>
> Kind of a double standard. You get to freely choose the things you
> think are unhealthy.
>
> What you're doing is creating a mystique about coffee (as people
> often do about alcohol). It becomes not just a drink made with
coffee
> beans but a rite of passage to adulthood, into being able to make
> your own choices without someone else watching and judging your
choices.
>
> I bet if you offered her a taste she wouldn't like it and that
would
> be the end of that.

That reminds me of my first taste of coffee. I thought my mom had a
cup of tea, and I took a sip -- UGH! But I still don't like it - and
most people (though not all) say they learned to drink it in college
or whatnot. I tried all types, even the chocolate coffees(figured if
I would like one, it would be that) and nope. I finally realized
that it makes no sense to try to develop a taste for something that
is bad for me -- I like too many things that aren't good for me as is!

Linda

kbcdlovejo@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: trektheory <trektheory@...>

I finally realized
that it makes no sense to try to develop a taste for something that
is bad for me -- I like too many things that aren't good for me as is!

-=-=-=-=-

I hate the stuff too.

But exactly HOW is it bad for you?

I think it's just a way to keep kids' hands off something that used to
be scarce and expensive.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

trektheory

--- In unschoolingbasics@yahoogroups.com, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trektheory <trektheory@...>
>
> I finally realized
> that it makes no sense to try to develop a taste for something that
> is bad for me -- I like too many things that aren't good for me as is!
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I hate the stuff too.
>
> But exactly HOW is it bad for you?
>

Caffeine can have negative repercussions, especially if you are prone
to migraines. And if you are hooked on it, and try to stop -- caffeine
withdrawl can cause some awful headaches -- as I learned from my sil.

I also don't drink beer, for the same reason. Yuck!

(As for coffee -- I just tell people I'm not grown up enough to drink
it! I may never be grown up!)

Linda

kbcdlovejo@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: trektheory <trektheory@...>

Caffeine can have negative repercussions, especially if you are prone
to migraines. And if you are hooked on it, and try to stop -- caffeine
withdrawl can cause some awful headaches -- as I learned from my sil.

-=-=-=-

Except that a friend of mine who suffers from migraines *uses* caffiene
to ease/ward off an oncoming migraine.

So which *is* it????

See, not enough info--or too much!?

-=-=-=--

I also don't drink beer, for the same reason. Yuck!

-=-=-=-

Because you have migraines? Or because you were hooked on it? <bwg>

-=-=-=-

(As for coffee -- I just tell people I'm not grown up enough to drink
it! I may never be grown up!)

-=-=-

I'm certainly "grown up" enough to drink anything I want. I just choose
to stay far away from coffee.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org

trektheory

--- In unschoolingbasics@yahoogroups.com, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

> So which *is* it????
>
> See, not enough info--or too much!?

Your biology may vary? I know my son's migraines are sometimes
triggered by caffeine.


> I also don't drink beer, for the same reason. Yuck!
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Because you have migraines? Or because you were hooked on it? <bwg>
>
Sorry -- I wasn't clear. Neither, actually; because I can't stand
the taste of it! (And am not willing to "work at" learning to like
it.)

Linda