Thoughts about limits
trektheory
As I read here, I get the feeling a lot of people view limits as a
dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
within those boundaries, and feel safe in there. As they grow, the
limits then expand accordingly. (And since they are individuals,
what limits Johnny has might not work for Billy at the same age.) I
have seen a nephew who I viewed as rather sad, without limits --
because, it's really scary when you know you can go out of control,
and no one will set those limits for you. I think it is part of
parenting.
One of my favorite things about my mom -- my hero! -- is that she
changed how she interacted with us as we grew and changed. I use
that as my model. Limits can be discussed, even negotiated. My son
and I do that.
I often said I was both stricter than other parents and that my son
had more freedom than other kids. Sounds contradictory, but it
didn't seem to be in practice.
Just my thoughts on that at this point in time.
Linda
dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
within those boundaries, and feel safe in there. As they grow, the
limits then expand accordingly. (And since they are individuals,
what limits Johnny has might not work for Billy at the same age.) I
have seen a nephew who I viewed as rather sad, without limits --
because, it's really scary when you know you can go out of control,
and no one will set those limits for you. I think it is part of
parenting.
One of my favorite things about my mom -- my hero! -- is that she
changed how she interacted with us as we grew and changed. I use
that as my model. Limits can be discussed, even negotiated. My son
and I do that.
I often said I was both stricter than other parents and that my son
had more freedom than other kids. Sounds contradictory, but it
didn't seem to be in practice.
Just my thoughts on that at this point in time.
Linda
Michelle Thedaker
I'm still working on my views and practices regarding limits in my home.
For me, this always ties into the respect that I give my children. I've
been trying to compare my reactions to my children with my reactions to my
hubby, or a friend. Would I put food limits on my hubby? Would I tell my
friend how much TV she could watch? Certainly not. I would be trying to
control them, and that's horribly disrespectful. So why do I feel the need
to do these things to my children? My kids still have some limits on food
and electronics, but we're slowly pulling back day by day. I find that they
eat wonderfully when I say "yes" to every food choice. They are playing a
ton of electronics, and doing lots of other things too. Nobody is unsafe,
nobody is upset, it's working quite nicely so far.
On occaision my older son (who is autistic) will get overly agitated while
playing video games. Not every time, but sometimes. I used to say, "Okay,
that's it, turn off the game, take a break!" and I made the break
*mandatory* for him. THAT was the mistake, as I see it. He would of course
flip out ever more intensly and it was a messy downward spiral from there.
Then I stepped back and tried to figure out WHY I was making him take a
break. It seemed obvious to ME that he needed one, because he was
overstimulated. But is it my job to make the break happen.OR.is it my job
to help HIM understand why he needs a break, so that he can regulate his own
reactions to the world around him? Ah ha! That last one would extend FAR
beyond video gaming into self-control in all areas of life. Bingo! That's
what my goal became.
Now we talk about listening to his body, to his mind. That when he flips
out over (blank), it is his body/mind telling him that a break would be
helpful. That stepping back and calming down will feel good. Then I leave
him the choice of what he'd like to do about it (the very hard part for
me!). He's not 100% on choosing a calming activity, or walking away for a
moment (not even 25% yet!) but the control is back to HIM now. And let's
face it, I'm not always going to be there to help him control himself,
right? He needs to master that on his own - however many years that takes
him. I honestly don't believe that MAKING him take breaks is going to teach
him anything about calming himself. I think it's just teaching him that a
bigger and more powerful person can make you do something they want you to
do against your will. Blech. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I look at
it objectively like that.
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 6.5 and Josh, 2.5
Life is like riding a bicycle. You don't fall off unless you stop pedaling.
http://thedaker.blogspot.com/
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of trektheory
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
As I read here, I get the feeling a lot of people view limits as a
dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
within those boundaries, and feel safe in there. As they grow, the
limits then expand accordingly. (And since they are individuals,
what limits Johnny has might not work for Billy at the same age.) I
have seen a nephew who I viewed as rather sad, without limits --
because, it's really scary when you know you can go out of control,
and no one will set those limits for you. I think it is part of
parenting.
One of my favorite things about my mom -- my hero! -- is that she
changed how she interacted with us as we grew and changed. I use
that as my model. Limits can be discussed, even negotiated. My son
and I do that.
I often said I was both stricter than other parents and that my son
had more freedom than other kids. Sounds contradictory, but it
didn't seem to be in practice.
Just my thoughts on that at this point in time.
Linda
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For me, this always ties into the respect that I give my children. I've
been trying to compare my reactions to my children with my reactions to my
hubby, or a friend. Would I put food limits on my hubby? Would I tell my
friend how much TV she could watch? Certainly not. I would be trying to
control them, and that's horribly disrespectful. So why do I feel the need
to do these things to my children? My kids still have some limits on food
and electronics, but we're slowly pulling back day by day. I find that they
eat wonderfully when I say "yes" to every food choice. They are playing a
ton of electronics, and doing lots of other things too. Nobody is unsafe,
nobody is upset, it's working quite nicely so far.
On occaision my older son (who is autistic) will get overly agitated while
playing video games. Not every time, but sometimes. I used to say, "Okay,
that's it, turn off the game, take a break!" and I made the break
*mandatory* for him. THAT was the mistake, as I see it. He would of course
flip out ever more intensly and it was a messy downward spiral from there.
Then I stepped back and tried to figure out WHY I was making him take a
break. It seemed obvious to ME that he needed one, because he was
overstimulated. But is it my job to make the break happen.OR.is it my job
to help HIM understand why he needs a break, so that he can regulate his own
reactions to the world around him? Ah ha! That last one would extend FAR
beyond video gaming into self-control in all areas of life. Bingo! That's
what my goal became.
Now we talk about listening to his body, to his mind. That when he flips
out over (blank), it is his body/mind telling him that a break would be
helpful. That stepping back and calming down will feel good. Then I leave
him the choice of what he'd like to do about it (the very hard part for
me!). He's not 100% on choosing a calming activity, or walking away for a
moment (not even 25% yet!) but the control is back to HIM now. And let's
face it, I'm not always going to be there to help him control himself,
right? He needs to master that on his own - however many years that takes
him. I honestly don't believe that MAKING him take breaks is going to teach
him anything about calming himself. I think it's just teaching him that a
bigger and more powerful person can make you do something they want you to
do against your will. Blech. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I look at
it objectively like that.
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 6.5 and Josh, 2.5
Life is like riding a bicycle. You don't fall off unless you stop pedaling.
http://thedaker.blogspot.com/
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of trektheory
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
As I read here, I get the feeling a lot of people view limits as a
dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
within those boundaries, and feel safe in there. As they grow, the
limits then expand accordingly. (And since they are individuals,
what limits Johnny has might not work for Billy at the same age.) I
have seen a nephew who I viewed as rather sad, without limits --
because, it's really scary when you know you can go out of control,
and no one will set those limits for you. I think it is part of
parenting.
One of my favorite things about my mom -- my hero! -- is that she
changed how she interacted with us as we grew and changed. I use
that as my model. Limits can be discussed, even negotiated. My son
and I do that.
I often said I was both stricter than other parents and that my son
had more freedom than other kids. Sounds contradictory, but it
didn't seem to be in practice.
Just my thoughts on that at this point in time.
Linda
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Ellen Christian
I like the way you explained this. I agree.
trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote: As I read here, I get the feeling a lot of people view limits as a
dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
within those boundaries, and feel safe in there.
Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4/5
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote: As I read here, I get the feeling a lot of people view limits as a
dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
within those boundaries, and feel safe in there.
Ellen LaFleche-Christian - Garden Zone 4/5
Moonlight Creations Jewelry & Gifts http://moonlight-creations-jewelry.com
Receive a recipe every day http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ARecipeADay/
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
>depends on what you mean by limits. Like, yeah, i won't let my 4yo
> trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote: As I read here, I get the
> feeling a lot of people view limits as a
> dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for young
> children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children with
> firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
> within those boundaries, and feel safe in there.
>
walk alone to Little Caesers half a mile down the road. He wouldn't
have to because I'd go with him. But he does choose what he eats,
what he watches on tv, when he goes to bed. What would you say is
appropriate for a 4yo? I
trektheory
--- In [email protected], Melissa <autismhelp@...>
wrote:
appropriate for my son when he was 4 -- hey, it was 10 years ago! But
you have to go by what you feel is appropriate for your child -- and
you know your child, I don't, so I honestly can't tell you what is or
isn't right for you and your family!
I do know that occasionally my son, even now, needs me to step in and
say you have to eat something. If he goes too long -- and how long
that is can vary -- it effects his mood, etc., and he doesn't realize
that he needs food. He gets to a place where he is beyond recognizing
it at this point, and there are definite reprecussion. This happened
within the last month, and he was fine once he got some food into his
system.
At four, my son had to have limits on what movies or such he saw.
(And waaaay beyond that.) He would have trouble sleeping if he saw
something that was too intense, read something too intense. It wasn't
so much a limit, really, as just censorship -- I had a handle
generally on what he couldn't handle and avoided it. (And that, too,
is something that was long lasting.) When he was older, he once slept
over a friend's house, and in the morning they watched Scooby-Doo on
Zombie Island. To my surprise, that night, he had trouble sleeping
because of that show! (He was probably 8 or 9 by then.) The boy who
he had the sleepover was fine -- and was fine with lots of things my
son was not, despite the fact that my son was older. So, my son's
limits had to be set at a different place than the other boy's,
because they are different kids.
Does that make any sense, or are my fingers just rambling? ;-)
Linda
wrote:
>young
> >
> > trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote: As I read here, I get the
> > feeling a lot of people view limits as a
> > dirty word. But I have a different take on it, especially for
> > children. I view them as a safety box, if you will. Children withTo be honest, I can't say. I can't even remember what I felt was
> > firm limits that are age-appropriate are completely free to explore
> > within those boundaries, and feel safe in there.
> >
> depends on what you mean by limits. Like, yeah, i won't let my 4yo
> walk alone to Little Caesers half a mile down the road. He wouldn't
> have to because I'd go with him. But he does choose what he eats,
> what he watches on tv, when he goes to bed. What would you say is
> appropriate for a 4yo? I
appropriate for my son when he was 4 -- hey, it was 10 years ago! But
you have to go by what you feel is appropriate for your child -- and
you know your child, I don't, so I honestly can't tell you what is or
isn't right for you and your family!
I do know that occasionally my son, even now, needs me to step in and
say you have to eat something. If he goes too long -- and how long
that is can vary -- it effects his mood, etc., and he doesn't realize
that he needs food. He gets to a place where he is beyond recognizing
it at this point, and there are definite reprecussion. This happened
within the last month, and he was fine once he got some food into his
system.
At four, my son had to have limits on what movies or such he saw.
(And waaaay beyond that.) He would have trouble sleeping if he saw
something that was too intense, read something too intense. It wasn't
so much a limit, really, as just censorship -- I had a handle
generally on what he couldn't handle and avoided it. (And that, too,
is something that was long lasting.) When he was older, he once slept
over a friend's house, and in the morning they watched Scooby-Doo on
Zombie Island. To my surprise, that night, he had trouble sleeping
because of that show! (He was probably 8 or 9 by then.) The boy who
he had the sleepover was fine -- and was fine with lots of things my
son was not, despite the fact that my son was older. So, my son's
limits had to be set at a different place than the other boy's,
because they are different kids.
Does that make any sense, or are my fingers just rambling? ;-)
Linda
>
[email protected]
It sounds like you're using the word "limits" the way radical unschoolers use the word "principles." We live our lives with principles in place but not hard and fast rules. Principles are open for change and growth, rules can be arbitrary.
I've been watching a 2 and 7 year old for the past few weeks. Their parents have recently started radical unschooling. The kids are responding very well to the priciples we all have in our homes. We want to be safe. We treat other people with kindness. We don't like to feel yucky so we treat our bodies well. With the 2 year old I have to make it more specific than with the 7 year old.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "trektheory" <trektheory@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been watching a 2 and 7 year old for the past few weeks. Their parents have recently started radical unschooling. The kids are responding very well to the priciples we all have in our homes. We want to be safe. We treat other people with kindness. We don't like to feel yucky so we treat our bodies well. With the 2 year old I have to make it more specific than with the 7 year old.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "trektheory" <trektheory@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
L. Amphay
Mary,
Would you expand on the principles you use? Also rules vs. principles? I think I actually read an article about this somewhere....along time ago.
Lucy
zenmomma@... wrote: It sounds like you're using the word "limits" the way radical unschoolers use the word "principles." We live our lives with principles in place but not hard and fast rules. Principles are open for change and growth, rules can be arbitrary.
I've been watching a 2 and 7 year old for the past few weeks. Their parents have recently started radical unschooling. The kids are responding very well to the priciples we all have in our homes. We want to be safe. We treat other people with kindness. We don't like to feel yucky so we treat our bodies well. With the 2 year old I have to make it more specific than with the 7 year old.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "trektheory" <trektheory@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Would you expand on the principles you use? Also rules vs. principles? I think I actually read an article about this somewhere....along time ago.
Lucy
zenmomma@... wrote: It sounds like you're using the word "limits" the way radical unschoolers use the word "principles." We live our lives with principles in place but not hard and fast rules. Principles are open for change and growth, rules can be arbitrary.
I've been watching a 2 and 7 year old for the past few weeks. Their parents have recently started radical unschooling. The kids are responding very well to the priciples we all have in our homes. We want to be safe. We treat other people with kindness. We don't like to feel yucky so we treat our bodies well. With the 2 year old I have to make it more specific than with the 7 year old.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "trektheory" <trektheory@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 11, 2006, at 9:51 AM, trektheory wrote:
probably make things clearer.
You *can* view limits and safety that way. But it won't help you see
how helping kids get what they want -- like not get hit by a car, not
getting shocked by a knife put in an outlet-- is different than
putting a fence around them because of what you fear will happen.
Limits say "I don't trust you. You're not competent enough." For many
kids that's a challenge! They want to test themselves even against
things they wouldn't want to try. When the world is divided between
what you can and can't do, it's natural to want to test yourself on
what others believe you aren't capable of handling. But when the
world is divided between what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy,
there isn't a reason to do the things you don't enjoy.
Life is risky. But we can be there with them to keep them from
imminent death, to help them figure out situations as they arise.
That's how people learn :-)
Principles work a lot better. If the principle is safety and a child
knows mom will help them do what they want, there isn't a reason to
try to sneak to do something risky. When they're younger, of course,
we can't depend on them understanding the consequences of every
choice. Our presence is what's needed then, not rules and limits as a
subsitute for our presence.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But I have a different take on it, especially for youngDo you have real examples of what you're talking about? That will
> children. I view them as a safety box, if you will.
probably make things clearer.
You *can* view limits and safety that way. But it won't help you see
how helping kids get what they want -- like not get hit by a car, not
getting shocked by a knife put in an outlet-- is different than
putting a fence around them because of what you fear will happen.
Limits say "I don't trust you. You're not competent enough." For many
kids that's a challenge! They want to test themselves even against
things they wouldn't want to try. When the world is divided between
what you can and can't do, it's natural to want to test yourself on
what others believe you aren't capable of handling. But when the
world is divided between what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy,
there isn't a reason to do the things you don't enjoy.
Life is risky. But we can be there with them to keep them from
imminent death, to help them figure out situations as they arise.
That's how people learn :-)
Principles work a lot better. If the principle is safety and a child
knows mom will help them do what they want, there isn't a reason to
try to sneak to do something risky. When they're younger, of course,
we can't depend on them understanding the consequences of every
choice. Our presence is what's needed then, not rules and limits as a
subsitute for our presence.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lesa McMahon-Lowe
joyce... i love what you wrote... can i quote some of it on my blog?
~*~*~
Lesa M.
LIFE Academy
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net/
-------Original Message-------
From: Joyce Fetteroll
Date: 04/12/06 04:19:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
~*~*~
Lesa M.
LIFE Academy
http://lifeacademy.homeschooljournal.net/
-------Original Message-------
From: Joyce Fetteroll
Date: 04/12/06 04:19:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
On Apr 11, 2006, at 9:51 AM, trektheory wrote:
> But I have a different take on it, especially for young
> children. I view them as a safety box, if you will.
Do you have real examples of what you're talking about? That will
probably make things clearer.
You *can* view limits and safety that way. But it won't help you see
how helping kids get what they want -- like not get hit by a car, not
getting shocked by a knife put in an outlet-- is different than
putting a fence around them because of what you fear will happen.
Limits say "I don't trust you. You're not competent enough." For many
kids that's a challenge! They want to test themselves even against
things they wouldn't want to try. When the world is divided between
what you can and can't do, it's natural to want to test yourself on
what others believe you aren't capable of handling. But when the
world is divided between what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy,
there isn't a reason to do the things you don't enjoy.
Life is risky. But we can be there with them to keep them from
imminent death, to help them figure out situations as they arise.
That's how people learn :-)
Principles work a lot better. If the principle is safety and a child
knows mom will help them do what they want, there isn't a reason to
try to sneak to do something risky. When they're younger, of course,
we can't depend on them understanding the consequences of every
choice. Our presence is what's needed then, not rules and limits as a
subsitute for our presence.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 12, 2006, at 7:35 AM, Lesa McMahon-Lowe wrote:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> joyce... i love what you wrote... can i quote some of it on my blog?Absolutely. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanne
Joyce...
I just wanted you to know that I really enjoyed your post. I wonder
if you (and Sandra & Pam) would be surprised to know that much of
what you post stays in my head and helps me when I relate to my
girls throughout the day.
We got a 14' trampoline for Christmas. Instead of *me* making up a
list of rules and then telling them the rules I made up, we sat down
*together* and discussed what we could do to stay safe on it.
Thank you ...
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
I just wanted you to know that I really enjoyed your post. I wonder
if you (and Sandra & Pam) would be surprised to know that much of
what you post stays in my head and helps me when I relate to my
girls throughout the day.
We got a 14' trampoline for Christmas. Instead of *me* making up a
list of rules and then telling them the rules I made up, we sat down
*together* and discussed what we could do to stay safe on it.
Thank you ...
~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/
http://foreverparents.com
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>see
>
> On Apr 11, 2006, at 9:51 AM, trektheory wrote:
>
> > But I have a different take on it, especially for young
> > children. I view them as a safety box, if you will.
>
> Do you have real examples of what you're talking about? That will
> probably make things clearer.
>
> You *can* view limits and safety that way. But it won't help you
> how helping kids get what they want -- like not get hit by a car,not
> getting shocked by a knife put in an outlet-- is different thanmany
> putting a fence around them because of what you fear will happen.
>
> Limits say "I don't trust you. You're not competent enough." For
> kids that's a challenge! They want to test themselves evenagainst
> things they wouldn't want to try. When the world is dividedbetween
> what you can and can't do, it's natural to want to test yourselfon
> what others believe you aren't capable of handling. But when thechild
> world is divided between what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy,
> there isn't a reason to do the things you don't enjoy.
>
> Life is risky. But we can be there with them to keep them from
> imminent death, to help them figure out situations as they arise.
> That's how people learn :-)
>
> Principles work a lot better. If the principle is safety and a
> knows mom will help them do what they want, there isn't a reasonto
> try to sneak to do something risky. When they're younger, ofcourse,
> we can't depend on them understanding the consequences of everyas a
> choice. Our presence is what's needed then, not rules and limits
> subsitute for our presence.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
trektheory
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
we're talking over 40 dog years!) Too much has happened, and I
think my mind weeded out what was unnecessary, to a certain degree.
Many details are gone.
One thing I do remember -- this was when my son was 2 1/4. The
crib. Oh, boy! He was doing very unsafe things in it -- things
that had me seriously worried about a cracked skull. But he loved
his crib, too. We bought a bed, and put it in the room, while still
leaving the crib up, thinking to ease him into the bed, that he
would make the choice to go to the bed, etc. (A friend's dd
transitioned so easily that way, so I thought it seemed a good
way.) Well, what happened is that he got to be horribly behaved day-
in, day-out. He didn't want the bed, it was too big a decision -
yet, I know darned well he was NOT safe in his crib at this point.
(He claimed that, even with the bed rail, it needed higher sides.)
The behavior got to a point, I was practically ready to hand him
over to a neighbor for a few months. (Okay, not really, but it was
bad!) Finally, I realized that it was too much for a 2 yr old to
deal with. I had to set the limits, the tone -- and we let him know
that after his nap we would take the crib down, he would be sleeping
in the big boy bed, etc. He slept fine in the bed, and his behavior
did a 180 -- I got my child back. And he was no longer in such
danger. (Yes, he really was at high risk of falling and hitting his
head on the corner of the dresser, due in part to the design of the
crib.) I had to be the parent.
It's been even longer since my one nephew was young, but I remember
that his parents, even if they said no, let him do whatever he
wanted. He was out of control, to the point NO ONE -- not even
grandparents -- really wanted to be around him. And he was not
particularly happy. I believe he didn't want to be out of control --
but hey, he was a little kid, and wasn't ready to be self-
controlled. Those limits were needed. He is now in his 20's, and
still not really in control, is deeply in debt alrealdy, for things
he wants, not needs.
Again, every child is different, and every family is, and what works
best for one, may not be right for another.
Linda
<fetteroll@...> wrote:
>Unfortunately, my memories of back when are so sketchy now. (Hey,
>
> On Apr 11, 2006, at 9:51 AM, trektheory wrote:
>
> > But I have a different take on it, especially for young
> > children. I view them as a safety box, if you will.
>
> Do you have real examples of what you're talking about? That will
> probably make things clearer.
>
we're talking over 40 dog years!) Too much has happened, and I
think my mind weeded out what was unnecessary, to a certain degree.
Many details are gone.
One thing I do remember -- this was when my son was 2 1/4. The
crib. Oh, boy! He was doing very unsafe things in it -- things
that had me seriously worried about a cracked skull. But he loved
his crib, too. We bought a bed, and put it in the room, while still
leaving the crib up, thinking to ease him into the bed, that he
would make the choice to go to the bed, etc. (A friend's dd
transitioned so easily that way, so I thought it seemed a good
way.) Well, what happened is that he got to be horribly behaved day-
in, day-out. He didn't want the bed, it was too big a decision -
yet, I know darned well he was NOT safe in his crib at this point.
(He claimed that, even with the bed rail, it needed higher sides.)
The behavior got to a point, I was practically ready to hand him
over to a neighbor for a few months. (Okay, not really, but it was
bad!) Finally, I realized that it was too much for a 2 yr old to
deal with. I had to set the limits, the tone -- and we let him know
that after his nap we would take the crib down, he would be sleeping
in the big boy bed, etc. He slept fine in the bed, and his behavior
did a 180 -- I got my child back. And he was no longer in such
danger. (Yes, he really was at high risk of falling and hitting his
head on the corner of the dresser, due in part to the design of the
crib.) I had to be the parent.
It's been even longer since my one nephew was young, but I remember
that his parents, even if they said no, let him do whatever he
wanted. He was out of control, to the point NO ONE -- not even
grandparents -- really wanted to be around him. And he was not
particularly happy. I believe he didn't want to be out of control --
but hey, he was a little kid, and wasn't ready to be self-
controlled. Those limits were needed. He is now in his 20's, and
still not really in control, is deeply in debt alrealdy, for things
he wants, not needs.
Again, every child is different, and every family is, and what works
best for one, may not be right for another.
Linda
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/11/06, trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote:
falls into the autistic spectrum. He has a very difficult time identifying
his needs. He never realizes he is hungry until he is so hungry that food
needs to be delivered to him RIGHT NOW! He then doesn't realize when he is
full until he throws up. He doesn't recognize when he is tired either. We
tried for a long time (and continue) to explain the signs of these things.
For instance when he is tired we will say, "Your eyes look heavy and you are
moving slowly. You must be tired." or "You've eaten 3 pancakes, 4 sices of
bacon, 3 eggs, and a piece of toast. Your stomach must feel very full like
it is going to burst!" He's the only of my children who still has a
bedtime. (8:05 pm) and the only one that I have to put food limits on. I
would love for him to get to the point where his sisters are and recognize
that he is tired, hungry, satiated, thirsty, needing to eliminate, etc. It
saddens me that I do have to continue to monitor what he eats and recognize
his cues for him. I'm hoping by helping him to recognize these cues and
become aware of them on his own that I will be able to ease off his
limitations and let him have the freedoms his sisters have.
We have tried several times to not have these limitations. The last time we
tried this he would fall into a puddle of tears because he didn't know what
he was feeling or what it meant. He got angry at us because we weren't
helping him! So we continue to help him.
One of his biggest problems is that he is a natural morning person. The sun
comes up and my son gets up with it, whether he has had 10 hours of sleep or
3 hours of sleep. He's been this way since he was 3 months old! (It's a
good thing his mama is also a morning person.)
Bedtime and food were two of the hardest things to let go of with my girls.
Partly because I had always had my food controlled for me as a child. I
realized that if I continued to control food like my parents controlled my
food that they would grow up with the same issues surrounding food that I
have. I didn't want that. I also found that my problem with sleep was that
I have one child who is a natural night owl. Been that way since birth
(didn't even give me a 3 month wait!) My other child likes to stay up late
but will go to bed when she is tired, usually before midnight. I just can't
stay up late like that. I need my sleep and like to do it so I can feel
rested when I get up with the sun/son. I realized that they didn't need me
to stay up with them. And since then have been at peace about letting them
stay up even though I am tired and going to bed. I'm not sure what I would
have done had I unschooled my children at a much younger age.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I have a "mixed household" when it comes to limits. I have a child that
> As I read here, I get the feeling a lot of people view limits as a
> dirty word.
falls into the autistic spectrum. He has a very difficult time identifying
his needs. He never realizes he is hungry until he is so hungry that food
needs to be delivered to him RIGHT NOW! He then doesn't realize when he is
full until he throws up. He doesn't recognize when he is tired either. We
tried for a long time (and continue) to explain the signs of these things.
For instance when he is tired we will say, "Your eyes look heavy and you are
moving slowly. You must be tired." or "You've eaten 3 pancakes, 4 sices of
bacon, 3 eggs, and a piece of toast. Your stomach must feel very full like
it is going to burst!" He's the only of my children who still has a
bedtime. (8:05 pm) and the only one that I have to put food limits on. I
would love for him to get to the point where his sisters are and recognize
that he is tired, hungry, satiated, thirsty, needing to eliminate, etc. It
saddens me that I do have to continue to monitor what he eats and recognize
his cues for him. I'm hoping by helping him to recognize these cues and
become aware of them on his own that I will be able to ease off his
limitations and let him have the freedoms his sisters have.
We have tried several times to not have these limitations. The last time we
tried this he would fall into a puddle of tears because he didn't know what
he was feeling or what it meant. He got angry at us because we weren't
helping him! So we continue to help him.
One of his biggest problems is that he is a natural morning person. The sun
comes up and my son gets up with it, whether he has had 10 hours of sleep or
3 hours of sleep. He's been this way since he was 3 months old! (It's a
good thing his mama is also a morning person.)
Bedtime and food were two of the hardest things to let go of with my girls.
Partly because I had always had my food controlled for me as a child. I
realized that if I continued to control food like my parents controlled my
food that they would grow up with the same issues surrounding food that I
have. I didn't want that. I also found that my problem with sleep was that
I have one child who is a natural night owl. Been that way since birth
(didn't even give me a 3 month wait!) My other child likes to stay up late
but will go to bed when she is tired, usually before midnight. I just can't
stay up late like that. I need my sleep and like to do it so I can feel
rested when I get up with the sun/son. I realized that they didn't need me
to stay up with them. And since then have been at peace about letting them
stay up even though I am tired and going to bed. I'm not sure what I would
have done had I unschooled my children at a much younger age.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
trektheory
--- In [email protected], "Pampered Chef Michelle"
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
some progress in some areas, and as he grows, he will learn more of
the cues. I've read that a lot of what we do more or less
instinctively, is just a learned process for autistic-spectrum kids.
But I know someone (on-line) who has a 16 yr old aspie son who has
done wonderfully -- even been on radio, with a different persona.)
to be a night person. Sigh.) That's one reason I don't particularly
like to stay up on New Year's Eve. I much prefer to start the year
off feeling good, rather than wiped.
You should see how my son is generally when he comes back from camp!
(Last time, he went tired, so actually went to bed early there, and
came back more refreshed than I've seen, but usually, he showers,
eats and crashes!)
And I realized my son was a morning person since he was an infant,
too! (And right-handed, by 6 months at the latest.)
Sounds like you really have the worst of both worlds, though, having
both a morning child and a night owl child.
Wishing you many good night's sleep!
Linda
<pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
>last time we
>
> We have tried several times to not have these limitations. The
> tried this he would fall into a puddle of tears because he didn'tknow what
> he was feeling or what it meant. He got angry at us because weweren't
> helping him! So we continue to help him.Wishing you continued success (I'm thinking you probably have made
some progress in some areas, and as he grows, he will learn more of
the cues. I've read that a lot of what we do more or less
instinctively, is just a learned process for autistic-spectrum kids.
But I know someone (on-line) who has a 16 yr old aspie son who has
done wonderfully -- even been on radio, with a different persona.)
>person. The sun
> One of his biggest problems is that he is a natural morning
> comes up and my son gets up with it, whether he has had 10 hours ofsleep or
> 3 hours of sleep.I'm rather like that, as is my son. (My dh, on the other hand, tends
to be a night person. Sigh.) That's one reason I don't particularly
like to stay up on New Year's Eve. I much prefer to start the year
off feeling good, rather than wiped.
You should see how my son is generally when he comes back from camp!
(Last time, he went tired, so actually went to bed early there, and
came back more refreshed than I've seen, but usually, he showers,
eats and crashes!)
And I realized my son was a morning person since he was an infant,
too! (And right-handed, by 6 months at the latest.)
Sounds like you really have the worst of both worlds, though, having
both a morning child and a night owl child.
Wishing you many good night's sleep!
Linda
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/12/06, trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote:
would not be uncommon for Emily to stll be awake in her room reading all
hours of the night. Now that she is a teen she goes to bed when she is
ready. I kiss her goodnight as I toddle off to my slumber :) It's not bad
now. It works well. And I am constantly teased on the New Year as I just
can't stay up to ring in the new year. I'm like you in that I enjoy seeing
the new year with fresh rested eyes than a tired hurting body!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>When they were younger it was worse. When we still were having bedtimes it
>
> Sounds like you really have the worst of both worlds, though, having
> both a morning child and a night owl child.
would not be uncommon for Emily to stll be awake in her room reading all
hours of the night. Now that she is a teen she goes to bed when she is
ready. I kiss her goodnight as I toddle off to my slumber :) It's not bad
now. It works well. And I am constantly teased on the New Year as I just
can't stay up to ring in the new year. I'm like you in that I enjoy seeing
the new year with fresh rested eyes than a tired hurting body!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aroundthemilkyway
> Sounds like you really have the worst of both worlds, though, havingor best :)
> both a morning child and a night owl child.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/12/2006 5:26:20 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time,
pamperedmichelle@... writes:
I'm a night owl. No matter what I do, I can't fall asleep b4 midnite most
days.
Mandy
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamperedmichelle@... writes:
> Sounds like you really have the worst of both worlds, though, havingNow I really got the short end of the stick. I have morning children, and
> both a morning child and a night owl child.
I'm a night owl. No matter what I do, I can't fall asleep b4 midnite most
days.
Mandy
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
Hey,
Breanna has autism as well, and it's really a fine balance with her.
But we have gotten to the point where we can just trust her to find
those limits. It's taken longer than it did with the others (in fact,
I would say probably just in the past six months), but we're there
for the most part.
Some days she is overwhelmed, and we step back in to help her with
those limits, but I think that's similar to what we'd do with
everyone else, right?
Josh has aspergers, and similar issues especially with exhaustion,
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Just keep the faith, he'll get there! Just wanted to let you know
you're not alone.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
Breanna has autism as well, and it's really a fine balance with her.
But we have gotten to the point where we can just trust her to find
those limits. It's taken longer than it did with the others (in fact,
I would say probably just in the past six months), but we're there
for the most part.
Some days she is overwhelmed, and we step back in to help her with
those limits, but I think that's similar to what we'd do with
everyone else, right?
Josh has aspergers, and similar issues especially with exhaustion,
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Just keep the faith, he'll get there! Just wanted to let you know
you're not alone.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Apr 12, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Pampered Chef Michelle wrote:
>
> I have a "mixed household" when it comes to limits. I have a child
> that
> falls into the autistic spectrum. He has a very difficult time
> identifying
> his needs.
> We have tried several times to not have these limitations. The
> last time we
> tried this he would fall into a puddle of tears because he didn't
> know what
> he was feeling or what it meant. He got angry at us because we
> weren't
> helping him! So we continue to help him.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 12, 2006, at 10:38 AM, trektheory wrote:
be tried out and analyzed and discussed. :-)
Certainty that there was no other way than limits doesn't mean that
for someone who was determined not to impose limits who was an out of
the box thinker or had access to hundreds of people with ideas that
nonlimiting solutions couldn't have been found.
Limits are convenient for parents. That doesn't mean there weren't
other answers.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unfortunately, my memories of back when are so sketchy now. (Hey,Actually I was looking for contemporary examples where things could
> we're talking over 40 dog years!)
be tried out and analyzed and discussed. :-)
Certainty that there was no other way than limits doesn't mean that
for someone who was determined not to impose limits who was an out of
the box thinker or had access to hundreds of people with ideas that
nonlimiting solutions couldn't have been found.
Limits are convenient for parents. That doesn't mean there weren't
other answers.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/12/06, trektheory <trektheory@...> wrote:
lack of limits. There is a big difference between unschooling and
unparenting. The key is that unschooling parents recognize when a children
are having problems with finding what is comfortable for them and step in
and assist them in finding comfort in their lives. Unparenting parents,
well, don't parent. They don't help children find their comfort zones and
don't help children recognize their own limitations or when they need to
change something in their lives. Unschooling does not mean that parents
play no role in helping their children through life other than being chief
cook and bottle washer and chauffeur!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>There is a difference between unschooling lack of limits and unparenting
> It's been even longer since my one nephew was young, but I remember
> that his parents, even if they said no, let him do whatever he
> wanted. He was out of control, to the point NO ONE -- not even
> grandparents -- really wanted to be around him. And he was not
> particularly happy. I believe he didn't want to be out of control --
> but hey, he was a little kid, and wasn't ready to be self-
> controlled. Those limits were needed. He is now in his 20's, and
> still not really in control, is deeply in debt alrealdy, for things
> he wants, not needs.
lack of limits. There is a big difference between unschooling and
unparenting. The key is that unschooling parents recognize when a children
are having problems with finding what is comfortable for them and step in
and assist them in finding comfort in their lives. Unparenting parents,
well, don't parent. They don't help children find their comfort zones and
don't help children recognize their own limitations or when they need to
change something in their lives. Unschooling does not mean that parents
play no role in helping their children through life other than being chief
cook and bottle washer and chauffeur!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>Would you expand on the principles you use? Also rules vs. principles? >>Here's a whole page devoted to rules vs. principles. It explains it way better than I can. http://sandradodd.com/rules
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "L. Amphay" <l_amphay@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maisha Khalfani
Josh has aspergers, and similar issues especially with exhaustion,
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Is there anyone else on this list who is dealing with Asperger's? I'm thinking my 6 yo may fall into that spectrum, and unschooling may be very stressful for him. If we don't eat lunch at "lunchtime" it's a problem for him. If he doesn't know the agenda for the day he gets very agitated and starts crying and whining in a high pitched voice that, I admit, drives me absolutely crazy. Everything with him MUST be exact. And all he wants to do is either watch tv or play on the computer. How do the rest of you handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a minute-by-minute schedule?
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Is there anyone else on this list who is dealing with Asperger's? I'm thinking my 6 yo may fall into that spectrum, and unschooling may be very stressful for him. If we don't eat lunch at "lunchtime" it's a problem for him. If he doesn't know the agenda for the day he gets very agitated and starts crying and whining in a high pitched voice that, I admit, drives me absolutely crazy. Everything with him MUST be exact. And all he wants to do is either watch tv or play on the computer. How do the rest of you handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a minute-by-minute schedule?
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
----- Original Message -----
From: Melissa<mailto:autismhelp@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
Hey,
Breanna has autism as well, and it's really a fine balance with her.
But we have gotten to the point where we can just trust her to find
those limits. It's taken longer than it did with the others (in fact,
I would say probably just in the past six months), but we're there
for the most part.
Some days she is overwhelmed, and we step back in to help her with
those limits, but I think that's similar to what we'd do with
everyone else, right?
Josh has aspergers, and similar issues especially with exhaustion,
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Just keep the faith, he'll get there! Just wanted to let you know
you're not alone.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma<http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma>
On Apr 12, 2006, at 3:47 PM, Pampered Chef Michelle wrote:
>
> I have a "mixed household" when it comes to limits. I have a child
> that
> falls into the autistic spectrum. He has a very difficult time
> identifying
> his needs.
> We have tried several times to not have these limitations. The
> last time we
> tried this he would fall into a puddle of tears because he didn't
> know what
> he was feeling or what it meant. He got angry at us because we
> weren't
> helping him! So we continue to help him.
SPONSORED LINKS Secondary school education<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Secondary+school+education&w1=Secondary+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=ZmtJ9eV8jDgLVf_rQitp3g> Graduate school education<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Graduate+school+education&w1=Secondary+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=_ar44lA2aVf7qUVJT2dfbA> Home school education<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Home+school+education&w1=Secondary+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=igfV0UPAcfSvC6KUmUYY6w>
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Michelle Thedaker
Maisha,
My almost 7yo has High Functioning Autism (which would likely be dx'd as
Aspergers at this point). When we started homeschooling (not unschooling at
that point) about a year ago, there were lots of schedules involved. Slowly
we were able to move away from that, at Drew's pace. He's now at a point
where he is fairly comfortable not having a strict schedule. He still needs
to know what's happening for the day in a general way, and for the
week/month (calendars are a favorite in our house!). But it's not down to
the minute any longer. Drew's stress level has gone done enormously since
we pulled him from school, and even more in the past few weeks as we're
moving into unschooling. I personally believe that home is a wonderful
place for ASD kids to learn and be - much less stimulating than school,
which is a good thing for them!
I think I was talked into believing that he needed a schedule by all the
teachers he had in pre-K and K (all special ed classes). He certainly likes
some structure, but he's actually quite loose now. :-)
That said, there is no reason why you can't have a schedule in your house
and still unschool. Let him help pick what he wants to do and help schedule
it. He'll probably feel great about it. :-)
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 6.5 and Josh, 2.5
Life is like riding a bicycle. You don't fall off unless you stop pedaling.
http://thedaker.blogspot.com/
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisha Khalfani
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 9:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
Josh has aspergers, and similar issues especially with exhaustion,
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Is there anyone else on this list who is dealing with Asperger's? I'm
thinking my 6 yo may fall into that spectrum, and unschooling may be very
stressful for him. If we don't eat lunch at "lunchtime" it's a problem for
him. If he doesn't know the agenda for the day he gets very agitated and
starts crying and whining in a high pitched voice that, I admit, drives me
absolutely crazy. Everything with him MUST be exact. And all he wants to
do is either watch tv or play on the computer. How do the rest of you
handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a
minute-by-minute schedule?
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventure
s.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My almost 7yo has High Functioning Autism (which would likely be dx'd as
Aspergers at this point). When we started homeschooling (not unschooling at
that point) about a year ago, there were lots of schedules involved. Slowly
we were able to move away from that, at Drew's pace. He's now at a point
where he is fairly comfortable not having a strict schedule. He still needs
to know what's happening for the day in a general way, and for the
week/month (calendars are a favorite in our house!). But it's not down to
the minute any longer. Drew's stress level has gone done enormously since
we pulled him from school, and even more in the past few weeks as we're
moving into unschooling. I personally believe that home is a wonderful
place for ASD kids to learn and be - much less stimulating than school,
which is a good thing for them!
I think I was talked into believing that he needed a schedule by all the
teachers he had in pre-K and K (all special ed classes). He certainly likes
some structure, but he's actually quite loose now. :-)
That said, there is no reason why you can't have a schedule in your house
and still unschool. Let him help pick what he wants to do and help schedule
it. He'll probably feel great about it. :-)
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 6.5 and Josh, 2.5
Life is like riding a bicycle. You don't fall off unless you stop pedaling.
http://thedaker.blogspot.com/
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maisha Khalfani
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 9:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
Josh has aspergers, and similar issues especially with exhaustion,
and most emotions seem to turn to self-loathing. But he's doing
better too.
Is there anyone else on this list who is dealing with Asperger's? I'm
thinking my 6 yo may fall into that spectrum, and unschooling may be very
stressful for him. If we don't eat lunch at "lunchtime" it's a problem for
him. If he doesn't know the agenda for the day he gets very agitated and
starts crying and whining in a high pitched voice that, I admit, drives me
absolutely crazy. Everything with him MUST be exact. And all he wants to
do is either watch tv or play on the computer. How do the rest of you
handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a
minute-by-minute schedule?
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventure
s.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and
affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is
more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/14/2006 11:47:58 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time,
pamperedthed@... writes:
I think I was talked into believing that he needed a schedule by all the
teachers he had in pre-K and K (all special ed classes).
that is where i'm starting from, but my chilren don't have autism, they just
aren't doing what they are "supposed" to be doing
Mandy
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamperedthed@... writes:
I think I was talked into believing that he needed a schedule by all the
teachers he had in pre-K and K (all special ed classes).
that is where i'm starting from, but my chilren don't have autism, they just
aren't doing what they are "supposed" to be doing
Mandy
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
(http://www.baby-gaga.com/) (http://www.baby-gaga.com/)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>How do the rest of you handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a minute-by-minute schedule?>>Unschooling is about giving each child what they need to live and learn. So if your son wants a set routine, your job is to help him get it. If he's wanting to watch TV and play video games right now, he's getting something out of them. Your job is to get in there with him and see these activities through his eyes.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Maisha Khalfani" <earthspirit393@...>
Maisha Khalfani
Maisha said:
<<Unschooling is about giving each child what they need to live and learn. So if your son wants a set routine, your job is to help him get it. If he's wanting to watch TV and play video games right now, he's getting something out of them. Your job is to get in there with him and see these activities through his eyes.>>
I am all for that. I'm just trying to figure out a way to give my son what he needs, my two other sons what they need, and my two daughters what they need - and there's one of me. My son is the only one who needs that routine. When it's disturbed it's so stressful for us. Then again, it's also stressful for us to have to follow HIS routine. It would be soooo easy if he were an only child. LOL I'm wondering how other families handle this situation.
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
>>How do the rest of you handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a minute-by-minute schedule?>>Mary said:
<<Unschooling is about giving each child what they need to live and learn. So if your son wants a set routine, your job is to help him get it. If he's wanting to watch TV and play video games right now, he's getting something out of them. Your job is to get in there with him and see these activities through his eyes.>>
I am all for that. I'm just trying to figure out a way to give my son what he needs, my two other sons what they need, and my two daughters what they need - and there's one of me. My son is the only one who needs that routine. When it's disturbed it's so stressful for us. Then again, it's also stressful for us to have to follow HIS routine. It would be soooo easy if he were an only child. LOL I'm wondering how other families handle this situation.
Maisha
http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/<http://khalfanifamilyadventures.blogspot.com/>
"Don't be afraid of showing affection. Be warm and tender, thoughtful and affectionate. Mankind is more helped by sympathy than by service. Love is more than money, and a kind word will give more pleasure than a present."
~ Jean Baptiste Lacordaire
----- Original Message -----
From: zenmomma@...<mailto:zenmomma@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Thoughts about limits
>>How do the rest of you handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who thrives on a minute-by-minute schedule?>>
Unschooling is about giving each child what they need to live and learn. So if your son wants a set routine, your job is to help him get it. If he's wanting to watch TV and play video games right now, he's getting something out of them. Your job is to get in there with him and see these activities through his eyes.
--
~Mary
http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/<http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/>
"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."
~Thich Nhat Hanh
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Maisha Khalfani" <earthspirit393@...>
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Cara
Hi Maisha: My dds don't have aspergers, but were always asking me "what are
we going to do today?" or "What are we going to do tomorrow?" They are 7 and
10yo.
Finally I got a big whiteboard that I leave in our TV room. On it I write
today's day and date, then write down "morning" and list several activities,
"afternoon" and list activities and "evening" and list activities. I do this
before they get up in the morning so it's there when they come down for
breakfast.
Some of the things I list are things we have committed to do, such as field
hockey, book discussion group, art lesson, doctors appointments, etc. Others
are suggestions on my part.
There are some days that the girls want to work through the list item by
item, other days when we don't do anything on the list, but they really like
the fact that they can look at the board and know how the day *may* play
out. They've also been known to add things to the list. I keep a monthly
calendar on the fridge that they sometimes check too.
As I've been typing this I was thinking this technique may backfire on you
if your son insists on doing everything on the list in order. Maybe you
could somehow adapt it for your family so it wouldn't put you in a bind.
Best wishes, Cara B
On 4/15/06 6:44 AM, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
we going to do today?" or "What are we going to do tomorrow?" They are 7 and
10yo.
Finally I got a big whiteboard that I leave in our TV room. On it I write
today's day and date, then write down "morning" and list several activities,
"afternoon" and list activities and "evening" and list activities. I do this
before they get up in the morning so it's there when they come down for
breakfast.
Some of the things I list are things we have committed to do, such as field
hockey, book discussion group, art lesson, doctors appointments, etc. Others
are suggestions on my part.
There are some days that the girls want to work through the list item by
item, other days when we don't do anything on the list, but they really like
the fact that they can look at the board and know how the day *may* play
out. They've also been known to add things to the list. I keep a monthly
calendar on the fridge that they sometimes check too.
As I've been typing this I was thinking this technique may backfire on you
if your son insists on doing everything on the list in order. Maybe you
could somehow adapt it for your family so it wouldn't put you in a bind.
Best wishes, Cara B
On 4/15/06 6:44 AM, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> How do the rest of you handle the freedom of unschooling with someone who
> thrives on a minute-by-minute schedule?
>
> Maisha
Pampered Chef Michelle
>This was Keon to a tee about 2 years ago. When we would go to Disney world
> If we don't eat lunch at "lunchtime" it's a problem for
> him. If he doesn't know the agenda for the day he gets very agitated and
> starts crying and whining in a high pitched voice that, I admit, drives me
> absolutely crazy. Everything with him MUST be exact.
we would talk at breakfast about what it was we wanted to accomplish that
day. What rides we wanted to do and what shows we would see, etc. Keon
would get fixated on what we said. So when we would go to Animal Kingdom,
in his mind, we were supposed to go do It's Tough to be a Bug, the Safari,
Kali River Rapids and have lunch. In that order. If the line for the
safari was really long we would get Fast Passes (a line skipping program at
Disney) and come back when our time was up. To Keon waiting in line for 45
minutes was better than waiting 2 hours, doing something else and skipping
line waiting completely. It fell in order with his universe. He has gotten
much better as he has gotten older with the concept that things can change.
I've worked hard to try to bring spontenaiety into his life. It wasn't
something I could spring on him, but something that I eased in so that he
could handle changes in his routine. He still is very routine oriented
though. For instance right now he is outside tending to the garden because
I made the mistake of telling him once, "Each morning we need to go out and
make sure that the garden is ok and no bugs are eating our plants and fill
the water bucket so it can warm." He has to know what we are doing each day
and likes to have plenty of warning if things are going to change.
Yesterday was a sort of difficult day for him as we bombed the house for
fleas. We had to be out for 4 hours. We decided to go out for lunch and
then go see a movie. Well, the cheaper theater's movie had just started
when we got there so we decided to go to the other theater (note: we didn't
bother to check show times before leaving the house - it was an adventure
LOL!) When we got there the first showing of a movie we wanted to see
wasn't for another hour and some. So we left and went to go pick up some
medicine for the cats and come back. It was a lot of changing of minds and
activities, but he ended up not being as panicked as he has in the past.
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
I am all for that. I'm just trying to figure out a way to give my son what he needs, my two other sons what they need, and my two daughters what they need - and there's one of me. My son is the only one who needs that routine. When it's disturbed it's so stressful for us. Then again, it's also stressful for us to have to follow HIS routine. It would be soooo easy if he were an only child. LOL I'm wondering how other families handle this situation.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have a just turned 3 year old , a 4 year old son who is profoundly autistic and a 6 year old who has been diagnosed with aspbergers and OCD.
I think the first thing you have to do is really find out the kids needs and what part(s) of the routine are most important to them.
My son goes to school for 2.5 hours a day and he really thrives on this routine. He has his bath in the morning, his meals and snacks at about the same time everyday. He knows he will get his yogurt in teh evening before bed. These steady items seem to be enough to confort him and he deals with the "afternoon unknown" fine most days.
My Courtney though is a different story! She is upset if I drive somewhere a different way, if something dosent happen that was supposed to happen, etc.
So I do as much routine as possible without making everyone else crazy. I give her the structured school she wants but its with the understanding that she has to either do it while Nathaniel is at school if she wants me right there with her or do it mainly on her own.
I throw in unexpected changes in the day that are good suprises ( like chuckee cheese or the park) this has helped her realize that changes in the routine arent always a bad thing and go with the flow when there are changes that i cant do anything about.
So anyway In my opinion ......find out what parts he really needs and what parts you could help him do without.
nicole
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a just turned 3 year old , a 4 year old son who is profoundly autistic and a 6 year old who has been diagnosed with aspbergers and OCD.
I think the first thing you have to do is really find out the kids needs and what part(s) of the routine are most important to them.
My son goes to school for 2.5 hours a day and he really thrives on this routine. He has his bath in the morning, his meals and snacks at about the same time everyday. He knows he will get his yogurt in teh evening before bed. These steady items seem to be enough to confort him and he deals with the "afternoon unknown" fine most days.
My Courtney though is a different story! She is upset if I drive somewhere a different way, if something dosent happen that was supposed to happen, etc.
So I do as much routine as possible without making everyone else crazy. I give her the structured school she wants but its with the understanding that she has to either do it while Nathaniel is at school if she wants me right there with her or do it mainly on her own.
I throw in unexpected changes in the day that are good suprises ( like chuckee cheese or the park) this has helped her realize that changes in the routine arent always a bad thing and go with the flow when there are changes that i cant do anything about.
So anyway In my opinion ......find out what parts he really needs and what parts you could help him do without.
nicole
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pampered Chef Michelle
On 4/15/06, Maisha Khalfani <earthspirit393@...> wrote:
each morning we talk about what to expect during the day. Our conversations
go something like this:
Me: We have unschoolers today
Keon: Are we doing anything afterwards?
Me: I have a show tonight so I have to come home to pack for it.
Keon: Are we taking lunch?
Me: Yes; what would you like in your lunch
Keon: Cucumbers.
Me: Anything else?
Keon: No. I wish we could go to the store.
Me: What for?
Keon: More Magic cards.
Me: Perhaps we can do that tomorrow morning before we go to Funschool.
Keon: OK
I guarantee you that tomorrow morning's conversation is going to start off
with going to the store for Magic cards!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Keon does best when he knows what is going to happen. As we make breakfast
>
> I am all for that. I'm just trying to figure out a way to give my son
> what he needs, my two other sons what they need, and my two daughters what
> they need - and there's one of me. My son is the only one who needs that
> routine. When it's disturbed it's so stressful for us. Then again, it's
> also stressful for us to have to follow HIS routine. It would be soooo easy
> if he were an only child. LOL I'm wondering how other families handle this
> situation.
each morning we talk about what to expect during the day. Our conversations
go something like this:
Me: We have unschoolers today
Keon: Are we doing anything afterwards?
Me: I have a show tonight so I have to come home to pack for it.
Keon: Are we taking lunch?
Me: Yes; what would you like in your lunch
Keon: Cucumbers.
Me: Anything else?
Keon: No. I wish we could go to the store.
Me: What for?
Keon: More Magic cards.
Me: Perhaps we can do that tomorrow morning before we go to Funschool.
Keon: OK
I guarantee you that tomorrow morning's conversation is going to start off
with going to the store for Magic cards!
--
Michelle
Independent Kitchen Consultant #413652
The Pampered Chef
850-474-0817
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/michellelr
Ask me how you can save 60% on some of our most favorite products!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]