Re: [unschoolingbasics] teaching
[email protected]
I'm sure it can be. IMO people who suggest the exercise should give a full
explanation about the idea of it being an exercise. That it is not about
forbidding a word.
Nance
In a message dated 6/26/2004 4:28:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
It is a very very useful "exercise" for people new to unschooling to
try really hard not to think about "teaching" - but to replace it with
"learning."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
explanation about the idea of it being an exercise. That it is not about
forbidding a word.
Nance
In a message dated 6/26/2004 4:28:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
It is a very very useful "exercise" for people new to unschooling to
try really hard not to think about "teaching" - but to replace it with
"learning."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 6/26/04 7:22 PM, marbleface@... at marbleface@... wrote:
and some examples of when it makes some unschooling idea clearer -- will
help some people understand unschooling? What types of problems are they
having that using the word teaching will clear up for them?
I agree there are some people who will read ideas offered as a mandate. And
others will read the exact same words and see the ideas as suggestions to
try out.
When the subject of learning vs teaching comes up *I* don't think of it as
an exercise. To me the word "exercise" suggests something for someone to do
and then set aside because it's done what it's designed to do. Like drawing
those lines of springs (supposedly) is a step in learning cursive but not
something that anyone needs to do after they've mastered that.
(I think it's an exercise in *teaching* cursive ;-)
To me the ideas offered here are more akin to suggesting a pair of running
shoes to someone who is trying to run in street shoes and has asked for help
to improve her running. People can't know exactly what will help a
particular person but they can offer what they sincerely believe will help,
what they've seen help others with similar problems, what they've seen make
the side issues (that someone new to it thinks are the main issues) go away.
(For instance somene might think their child's bad attitude towards math
lessons is the problem when veteran unschoolers would feel confident
suggesting that it's the math lessons that's the real problem.
Seeing the difference between teaching and learning is something I think
will help someone who is asking an unschooling question that's tangled up
with schoolish thought get closer to unschooling. (A lot of getting
unschooling is making shifts in thinking. Not just new thoughts, but whole
new ways of thinking and viewing the world.) They can try it out. They can
ask why people think it's a good idea. They can look at how trying out the
idea affects their thinking. And maybe they'll realize they didn't have a
problem. And maybe they'll realize they did.
But I think for those who don't have a problem with the word teaching, that
it's polite to recognize that using the word learning instead of teaching
will help with a common problem many people have trying to get to
unschooling.
So what unschooling problems are you trying to help people with by using the
word teaching? And is there a way to not set back the people who can be
helped by seeing everything in learning terms and eliminating the word
teach?
Joyce
> IMO people who suggest the exercise should give a fullCan you explain how using the word teaching in unschooling explanations --
> explanation about the idea of it being an exercise. That it is not about
> forbidding a word.
and some examples of when it makes some unschooling idea clearer -- will
help some people understand unschooling? What types of problems are they
having that using the word teaching will clear up for them?
I agree there are some people who will read ideas offered as a mandate. And
others will read the exact same words and see the ideas as suggestions to
try out.
When the subject of learning vs teaching comes up *I* don't think of it as
an exercise. To me the word "exercise" suggests something for someone to do
and then set aside because it's done what it's designed to do. Like drawing
those lines of springs (supposedly) is a step in learning cursive but not
something that anyone needs to do after they've mastered that.
(I think it's an exercise in *teaching* cursive ;-)
To me the ideas offered here are more akin to suggesting a pair of running
shoes to someone who is trying to run in street shoes and has asked for help
to improve her running. People can't know exactly what will help a
particular person but they can offer what they sincerely believe will help,
what they've seen help others with similar problems, what they've seen make
the side issues (that someone new to it thinks are the main issues) go away.
(For instance somene might think their child's bad attitude towards math
lessons is the problem when veteran unschoolers would feel confident
suggesting that it's the math lessons that's the real problem.
Seeing the difference between teaching and learning is something I think
will help someone who is asking an unschooling question that's tangled up
with schoolish thought get closer to unschooling. (A lot of getting
unschooling is making shifts in thinking. Not just new thoughts, but whole
new ways of thinking and viewing the world.) They can try it out. They can
ask why people think it's a good idea. They can look at how trying out the
idea affects their thinking. And maybe they'll realize they didn't have a
problem. And maybe they'll realize they did.
But I think for those who don't have a problem with the word teaching, that
it's polite to recognize that using the word learning instead of teaching
will help with a common problem many people have trying to get to
unschooling.
So what unschooling problems are you trying to help people with by using the
word teaching? And is there a way to not set back the people who can be
helped by seeing everything in learning terms and eliminating the word
teach?
Joyce
pam sorooshian
On Jun 27, 2004, at 5:14 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
I can say that yesterday I taught my daughter how to iron a shirt. I
think it would be highly misleading to only say, "She learned how to
iron a shirt." But, she DID learn how to iron a shirt, too.
Today, I'm teaching another child how to sew up a hem. It would be
misleading to say anything other than that - I'd be pretending that I
was not teaching, but I am.
Earlier today my daughter taught me how to do something on her
fancy-schmancy calculator. I could say, "I learned," and that is ALSO
true, but she also taught me - her part in it was significant, not
something I should ignore.
Yesterday, my daughter says, her friend taught her how to play a new
game.
It would help someone understand unschooling to know that people in
unschooling families DO teach each other things all the time, in the
above kinds of contexts and with that kind of meaning of 'teaching.'
If they don't know that, and if they're still too tightly connected to
thinking of learning in a schooling context - and all they hear is,
"Unschoolers don't teach," then they may, as people sometimes seem wont
to do, take this new idea immediately to an extreme and refuse to allow
any "teaching" in their homes. "Mom, teach me how to write an "S" in
cursive?" "No dear, I don't 'teach' you anymore, find a way to figure
it out for yourself." Yuk - that is NOT what unschooling is.
What unschooling gets rid of is the idea that the "teacher" should
determine what and how and when something is taught - and the idea that
the only learning that counts is what is taught by a teacher.
Unschooling doesn't get rid of the kinds of things I listed above. It
is USEFUL as an exercise for new unschoolers to self-censor - to ban
the word "teach" from their vocabulary - and the reason that is useful
is because it will get them to focus on how the learning is not the
same as the teaching. It isn't because nobody should 'teach' anybody
else anything, though that is how people sometimes hear this idea.
it is also useful to better help people understand how their role
changes when they become unschooling parents as opposed to teachers. It
doesn't mean they can't ever "teach" anything. It means that the
relationship between the adult and child is just the same as that
between two adults would be - either one can teach something to the
other, one is not the designated "teacher" and the other "the learner."
If any of you have been in education departments and had to write
learning objectives, etc., you'll probably know what I mean when I say
that I cringe as much at the term, "the learner" or "will learn" as I
do at "teacher" or "teach."
I do think it is VERY useful, though, for people new to unschooling to
stop thinking in terms of "the learner" or "the teacher" and just
starting thinking in terms of living - drop the vocabulary that is
too-closely connected to school, at least for a while, because it will
liberate your thinking and help you break through some of the remnants
of how too-much schooling made us dependent on that particular format.
I also think that it is EXTREMELY useful to talk about how we
unschooling parents are NOT turning ourselves into our child's teacher,
as school-at-home parents do. So - pointing that out is important.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Can you explain how using the word teaching in unschoolingI can.
> explanations --
> and some examples of when it makes some unschooling idea clearer --
> will
> help some people understand unschooling? What types of problems are
> they
> having that using the word teaching will clear up for them?
I can say that yesterday I taught my daughter how to iron a shirt. I
think it would be highly misleading to only say, "She learned how to
iron a shirt." But, she DID learn how to iron a shirt, too.
Today, I'm teaching another child how to sew up a hem. It would be
misleading to say anything other than that - I'd be pretending that I
was not teaching, but I am.
Earlier today my daughter taught me how to do something on her
fancy-schmancy calculator. I could say, "I learned," and that is ALSO
true, but she also taught me - her part in it was significant, not
something I should ignore.
Yesterday, my daughter says, her friend taught her how to play a new
game.
It would help someone understand unschooling to know that people in
unschooling families DO teach each other things all the time, in the
above kinds of contexts and with that kind of meaning of 'teaching.'
If they don't know that, and if they're still too tightly connected to
thinking of learning in a schooling context - and all they hear is,
"Unschoolers don't teach," then they may, as people sometimes seem wont
to do, take this new idea immediately to an extreme and refuse to allow
any "teaching" in their homes. "Mom, teach me how to write an "S" in
cursive?" "No dear, I don't 'teach' you anymore, find a way to figure
it out for yourself." Yuk - that is NOT what unschooling is.
What unschooling gets rid of is the idea that the "teacher" should
determine what and how and when something is taught - and the idea that
the only learning that counts is what is taught by a teacher.
Unschooling doesn't get rid of the kinds of things I listed above. It
is USEFUL as an exercise for new unschoolers to self-censor - to ban
the word "teach" from their vocabulary - and the reason that is useful
is because it will get them to focus on how the learning is not the
same as the teaching. It isn't because nobody should 'teach' anybody
else anything, though that is how people sometimes hear this idea.
it is also useful to better help people understand how their role
changes when they become unschooling parents as opposed to teachers. It
doesn't mean they can't ever "teach" anything. It means that the
relationship between the adult and child is just the same as that
between two adults would be - either one can teach something to the
other, one is not the designated "teacher" and the other "the learner."
If any of you have been in education departments and had to write
learning objectives, etc., you'll probably know what I mean when I say
that I cringe as much at the term, "the learner" or "will learn" as I
do at "teacher" or "teach."
I do think it is VERY useful, though, for people new to unschooling to
stop thinking in terms of "the learner" or "the teacher" and just
starting thinking in terms of living - drop the vocabulary that is
too-closely connected to school, at least for a while, because it will
liberate your thinking and help you break through some of the remnants
of how too-much schooling made us dependent on that particular format.
I also think that it is EXTREMELY useful to talk about how we
unschooling parents are NOT turning ourselves into our child's teacher,
as school-at-home parents do. So - pointing that out is important.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Pam I so enjoy your posts.
I just wanted to throw this out. perhaps it is a sign of a shift happening
in our home I don't know but I liked it.
Last week my dd was on about her pretend teacher who was trying to teach her
something silly and dd was saying she didn't want to do it. So I just said
to her that she didn't really need a teacher, that she could teach herself
anything she wanted to know. At first she seemed confused about not needing
a teacher. So I asked her "who talk you to walk?" she said "I did?" and I
asked who taught her to talk again she said she did. Then I asked her who
taught her to ride her new big girl bike this year and she said (with pride)
"I did" and I said see you teach yourself lots of things!
So last night dh and I went out to see F 9/11 and I was chatting with a
woman who used to be a Montessori teacher in the concession line. When I
mentioned we were homeschooling (not even going to say unschooling at this
point) she looked at me and said I was insane and would definitely change my
mind by the time grade two rolled along. Didn't tell her I wasn't going to
pay attention to grades.
So I was relaying this story to dh over dinner tonight and my dd was there.
And she said to me "mommy did you tell her I don't need a teacher, that I
teach myself?"
And then she asked, "how come everyone wants me to go there, I want to stay
home with you!"
So I was pretty darn proud of that moment, and then all I could come up with
for an answer to her question was that some people thought kids had to go to
school to learn things but we knew better. I would be open to any other
thoughts on that topic as to "why" do people think they have to go to school
that is appropriate to 4 year olds.
Just thought I would share,
Thanks,
Sherri-lee
_____
From: pam sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] teaching
I just wanted to throw this out. perhaps it is a sign of a shift happening
in our home I don't know but I liked it.
Last week my dd was on about her pretend teacher who was trying to teach her
something silly and dd was saying she didn't want to do it. So I just said
to her that she didn't really need a teacher, that she could teach herself
anything she wanted to know. At first she seemed confused about not needing
a teacher. So I asked her "who talk you to walk?" she said "I did?" and I
asked who taught her to talk again she said she did. Then I asked her who
taught her to ride her new big girl bike this year and she said (with pride)
"I did" and I said see you teach yourself lots of things!
So last night dh and I went out to see F 9/11 and I was chatting with a
woman who used to be a Montessori teacher in the concession line. When I
mentioned we were homeschooling (not even going to say unschooling at this
point) she looked at me and said I was insane and would definitely change my
mind by the time grade two rolled along. Didn't tell her I wasn't going to
pay attention to grades.
So I was relaying this story to dh over dinner tonight and my dd was there.
And she said to me "mommy did you tell her I don't need a teacher, that I
teach myself?"
And then she asked, "how come everyone wants me to go there, I want to stay
home with you!"
So I was pretty darn proud of that moment, and then all I could come up with
for an answer to her question was that some people thought kids had to go to
school to learn things but we knew better. I would be open to any other
thoughts on that topic as to "why" do people think they have to go to school
that is appropriate to 4 year olds.
Just thought I would share,
Thanks,
Sherri-lee
_____
From: pam sorooshian [mailto:pamsoroosh@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] teaching
On Jun 27, 2004, at 5:14 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
> Can you explain how using the word teaching in unschooling
> explanations --
> and some examples of when it makes some unschooling idea clearer --
> will
> help some people understand unschooling? What types of problems are
> they
> having that using the word teaching will clear up for them?
I can.
I can say that yesterday I taught my daughter how to iron a shirt. I
think it would be highly misleading to only say, "She learned how to
iron a shirt." But, she DID learn how to iron a shirt, too.
Today, I'm teaching another child how to sew up a hem. It would be
misleading to say anything other than that - I'd be pretending that I
was not teaching, but I am.
Earlier today my daughter taught me how to do something on her
fancy-schmancy calculator. I could say, "I learned," and that is ALSO
true, but she also taught me - her part in it was significant, not
something I should ignore.
Yesterday, my daughter says, her friend taught her how to play a new
game.
It would help someone understand unschooling to know that people in
unschooling families DO teach each other things all the time, in the
above kinds of contexts and with that kind of meaning of 'teaching.'
If they don't know that, and if they're still too tightly connected to
thinking of learning in a schooling context - and all they hear is,
"Unschoolers don't teach," then they may, as people sometimes seem wont
to do, take this new idea immediately to an extreme and refuse to allow
any "teaching" in their homes. "Mom, teach me how to write an "S" in
cursive?" "No dear, I don't 'teach' you anymore, find a way to figure
it out for yourself." Yuk - that is NOT what unschooling is.
What unschooling gets rid of is the idea that the "teacher" should
determine what and how and when something is taught - and the idea that
the only learning that counts is what is taught by a teacher.
Unschooling doesn't get rid of the kinds of things I listed above. It
is USEFUL as an exercise for new unschoolers to self-censor - to ban
the word "teach" from their vocabulary - and the reason that is useful
is because it will get them to focus on how the learning is not the
same as the teaching. It isn't because nobody should 'teach' anybody
else anything, though that is how people sometimes hear this idea.
it is also useful to better help people understand how their role
changes when they become unschooling parents as opposed to teachers. It
doesn't mean they can't ever "teach" anything. It means that the
relationship between the adult and child is just the same as that
between two adults would be - either one can teach something to the
other, one is not the designated "teacher" and the other "the learner."
If any of you have been in education departments and had to write
learning objectives, etc., you'll probably know what I mean when I say
that I cringe as much at the term, "the learner" or "will learn" as I
do at "teacher" or "teach."
I do think it is VERY useful, though, for people new to unschooling to
stop thinking in terms of "the learner" or "the teacher" and just
starting thinking in terms of living - drop the vocabulary that is
too-closely connected to school, at least for a while, because it will
liberate your thinking and help you break through some of the remnants
of how too-much schooling made us dependent on that particular format.
I also think that it is EXTREMELY useful to talk about how we
unschooling parents are NOT turning ourselves into our child's teacher,
as school-at-home parents do. So - pointing that out is important.
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
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[email protected]
> If they don't know that, and if they're still too tightly connected toOR they may run from the whole idea of unschooling if they think that it means
>
> thinking of learning in a schooling context - and all they hear is,
>
> "Unschoolers don't teach," then they may, as people sometimes seem wont
>
> to do, take this new idea immediately to an extreme and refuse to allow
>
> any "teaching" in their homes. "Mom, teach me how to write an "S" in
>
> cursive?" "No dear, I don't 'teach' you anymore, find a way to figure
>
> it out for yourself." Yuk - that is NOT what unschooling is.
they shouldn't ever give their children new information or be a part of their
learning.
Robyn Coburn
<<<If they don't know that, and if they're still too tightly connected to
thinking of learning in a schooling context - and all they hear is,
"Unschoolers don't teach," then they may, as people sometimes seem wont
to do, take this new idea immediately to an extreme and refuse to allow
any "teaching" in their homes.>>>>
For my own journey of deschooling, I avoid the use of the word "teach"
because although it has civilian meaning, it is also very loaded school
jargon. I try to use other words like "show", "explain", "demonstrate" or
"help" that don't give me a particular status for something specific like
how to draw an S. I embrace the concept of strewing for the broader picture
of "What Unschoolers Do" discussions, to show that it is not passive. Of
course talking about "What Unschoolers Do" could give rise to an erroneous
picture of a homogenous group.
I find this extra important because Jayn, despite being only 4.5 and never
schooled, has somehow managed to become imbued with the schoolish meaning of
"Teach" to mean that she didn't do learn something without the teacher, and
gives credit, unduly, to the teacher. One place this has occurred was when
she took a few swimming lessons 2 summers ago that basically were just
putting her face in the water and blowing bubbles. The following summer she
taught herself to dog paddle and beginning underwater swimming, being
completely without floaties before the end of the summer. She did this by
playing, watching me and our neighbors swim, and being allowed to take or
leave the floaty vest on her own timetable. However she still gives credit
to the swimming teacher for teaching her to swim. :(
Humorously, we sometimes are treated to stories of how her friend Googly has
taught her how to do something. Googly is either an imaginary friend or her
spirit guide. ;)
<<<OR they may run from the whole idea of unschooling if they think that it
means they shouldn't ever give their children new information or be a part
of their learning. >>>
I hope no one stays here so briefly, that they leave with that impression on
the basis of one thread. If one ever needs a sentence that could be utilized
to indicate what Unschooling is not, that certainly is a good one.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
thinking of learning in a schooling context - and all they hear is,
"Unschoolers don't teach," then they may, as people sometimes seem wont
to do, take this new idea immediately to an extreme and refuse to allow
any "teaching" in their homes.>>>>
For my own journey of deschooling, I avoid the use of the word "teach"
because although it has civilian meaning, it is also very loaded school
jargon. I try to use other words like "show", "explain", "demonstrate" or
"help" that don't give me a particular status for something specific like
how to draw an S. I embrace the concept of strewing for the broader picture
of "What Unschoolers Do" discussions, to show that it is not passive. Of
course talking about "What Unschoolers Do" could give rise to an erroneous
picture of a homogenous group.
I find this extra important because Jayn, despite being only 4.5 and never
schooled, has somehow managed to become imbued with the schoolish meaning of
"Teach" to mean that she didn't do learn something without the teacher, and
gives credit, unduly, to the teacher. One place this has occurred was when
she took a few swimming lessons 2 summers ago that basically were just
putting her face in the water and blowing bubbles. The following summer she
taught herself to dog paddle and beginning underwater swimming, being
completely without floaties before the end of the summer. She did this by
playing, watching me and our neighbors swim, and being allowed to take or
leave the floaty vest on her own timetable. However she still gives credit
to the swimming teacher for teaching her to swim. :(
Humorously, we sometimes are treated to stories of how her friend Googly has
taught her how to do something. Googly is either an imaginary friend or her
spirit guide. ;)
<<<OR they may run from the whole idea of unschooling if they think that it
means they shouldn't ever give their children new information or be a part
of their learning. >>>
I hope no one stays here so briefly, that they leave with that impression on
the basis of one thread. If one ever needs a sentence that could be utilized
to indicate what Unschooling is not, that certainly is a good one.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
pam sorooshian
On Jun 28, 2004, at 2:55 AM, doulos@... wrote:
"teaching." Diabusing them of that idea is important, of course, as is
divorcing ourselves from too-loaded-with-baggage school jargon.
Again - I agree it is useful to not talk about teaching because it is
very useful to separate teaching from learning in our heads - many many
people can't do that, they think teaching is the same as learning and
they think the only way TO learn is to be taught. Even when they've
gotten the point of separating the two, it is hard to act on that
understanding and eliminating the school-language stuff from your
vocabulary is one way to sort of "force fit" ourselves into an
unschooling frame of mind.
But I DO think it is an exercise. I have said, out loud, "Sandra taught
me how to braid ribbons into hair. I learned it from her." If somebody
asks me to teach them, I'll do that. I won't say, "You can learn it
from me, but I'm not teaching you." That becomes sort of nonsensical
to insist on not ever using the word. Context matters. I recommend all
the time to people interested in unschooling that they try to go
through life without using "schoolish" language to describe what they
are doing, for a while. Not using the word "teach" is an exercise for
the purpose of gaining a particular skill - the ability to separate
teaching from learning and see them as two different things.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> OR they may run from the whole idea of unschooling if they think thatWhich is what most of them think they mean when they use the term
> it means
> they shouldn't ever give their children new information or be a part
> of their
> learning.
"teaching." Diabusing them of that idea is important, of course, as is
divorcing ourselves from too-loaded-with-baggage school jargon.
Again - I agree it is useful to not talk about teaching because it is
very useful to separate teaching from learning in our heads - many many
people can't do that, they think teaching is the same as learning and
they think the only way TO learn is to be taught. Even when they've
gotten the point of separating the two, it is hard to act on that
understanding and eliminating the school-language stuff from your
vocabulary is one way to sort of "force fit" ourselves into an
unschooling frame of mind.
But I DO think it is an exercise. I have said, out loud, "Sandra taught
me how to braid ribbons into hair. I learned it from her." If somebody
asks me to teach them, I'll do that. I won't say, "You can learn it
from me, but I'm not teaching you." That becomes sort of nonsensical
to insist on not ever using the word. Context matters. I recommend all
the time to people interested in unschooling that they try to go
through life without using "schoolish" language to describe what they
are doing, for a while. Not using the word "teach" is an exercise for
the purpose of gaining a particular skill - the ability to separate
teaching from learning and see them as two different things.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.