Lesa McMahon-Lowe

No one is suggesting blindly following any law. And yeah, some laws are
stupid. This is where we show our kids to stand up for and facilitate
change. Not.... "well, all laws are stupid and they don't apply to us."
This is where we show them the difference between democracy and other forms
of government... where we show them the prices paid for freedom.

Lesa

-------Original Message-------

From: jnjstau@...
Date: 03/10/06 19:44:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues

<<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>

Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right and wrong,
being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my actions. That
is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh risks,
evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences and make a choice.
I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all laws are for
the good of the people.

Julie S.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<where we show them the prices paid for freedom.>>

I don't see the connection to mandatory seatbelt usage. Notice that I never posted "..all laws are stupid and don't apply to us." I said not all laws are for the good of the people. And it is important to note that in this country, my children have zero say in what laws are passed.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>
Date: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> No one is suggesting blindly following any law. And yeah, some
> laws are
> stupid. This is where we show our kids to stand up for and facilitate
> change. Not.... "well, all laws are stupid and they don't apply
> to us."
> This is where we show them the difference between democracy and
> other forms
> of government... where we show them the prices paid for freedom.
>
> Lesa
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: jnjstau@...
> Date: 03/10/06 19:44:07
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues
>
> <<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>
>
> Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right
> and wrong,
> being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my
> actions. That
> is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh risks,
> evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences and make
> a choice.
> I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all laws
> are for
> the good of the people.
>
> Julie S.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

S Drag-teine

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't
pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for,
protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend
our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it
was once like in the United States where men were free.

Ronald Reagan

If you believe that a law is in error we have a civic duty to bond together
and use democracy to change the law. One of the freedoms we have is to hold
a demonstration by boycotting or refusing to do the given activity but
unless you getting it on the television or newspaper refusing to do an
activity you think is stupid is only going to make you poor and look
foolish.

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lesa McMahon-Lowe
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

No one is suggesting blindly following any law. And yeah, some laws are
stupid. This is where we show our kids to stand up for and facilitate
change. Not.... "well, all laws are stupid and they don't apply to us."
This is where we show them the difference between democracy and other forms
of government... where we show them the prices paid for freedom.

Lesa

-------Original Message-------

From: jnjstau@...
Date: 03/10/06 19:44:07
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues

<<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>

Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right and wrong,
being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my actions. That
is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh risks,
evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences and make a choice.
I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all laws are for
the good of the people.

Julie S.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

S Drag-teine

"And it is important to note that in this country, my children have zero say
in what laws are passed."

You children do not have the right to vote but they do have a voice. They
can talk to adults and their voice could reach through a closed mind. They
can write or dictate in their own words to an adult who could write on their
behalf to the right people. My son has written to congressmen about saving
the Cheaspeke Bay. He heard my brother and I talking about a new bill that
was passed and that I had just written letters encouraging grants to help
farmers use new plans to cut down on run off.

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of jnjstau@...
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

<<where we show them the prices paid for freedom.>>

I don't see the connection to mandatory seatbelt usage. Notice that I never
posted "..all laws are stupid and don't apply to us." I said not all laws
are for the good of the people. And it is important to note that in this
country, my children have zero say in what laws are passed.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>
Date: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> No one is suggesting blindly following any law. And yeah, some
> laws are
> stupid. This is where we show our kids to stand up for and facilitate
> change. Not.... "well, all laws are stupid and they don't apply
> to us."
> This is where we show them the difference between democracy and
> other forms
> of government... where we show them the prices paid for freedom.
>
> Lesa
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: jnjstau@...
> Date: 03/10/06 19:44:07
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues
>
> <<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>
>
> Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right
> and wrong,
> being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my
> actions. That
> is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh risks,
> evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences and make
> a choice.
> I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all laws
> are for
> the good of the people.
>
> Julie S.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

[email protected]

<<...we have a civic duty to bond together to use democracy to change the law.>>

But that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy. Something I don't have an excess of right now. So I simply choose which laws I will follow knowing full well that if caught I would have to face the consequences.

Some of the laws I don't follow:

mandatory seatbelt law
speed limit (I might do 70 in a 65)
occassionally forge a doctor's signature (not a real doctor, just a scribble with an MD behind it for things like needing a medical exam for a non-strenuous youth activity)
sell raw milk to friends who ask for it (spend a lot of time discussing the pros and cons of pasteurization with people)

These are laws that I see as personal choices rather than for the greater good. The raw milk law is about money pure and simple (large dairies must pasteurize because their milk is old by the time it gets to the store, I sell it within 24 hours of being milked out). Large dairies can pay for lobbyists, I don't have the time or energy to raise those kinds of funds or to raise that kind of awareness.

So I do what I think is best for me and mine and leave it at that. If other people are happy with the laws, they should follow them.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: S Drag-teine <dragteine@...>
Date: Monday, March 13, 2006 9:42 pm
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We
> didn'tpass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be
> fought for,
> protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we
> will spend
> our sunset years telling our children and our children's children
> what it
> was once like in the United States where men were free.
>
> Ronald Reagan
>
> If you believe that a law is in error we have a civic duty to bond
> togetherand use democracy to change the law. One of the freedoms
> we have is to hold
> a demonstration by boycotting or refusing to do the given activity but
> unless you getting it on the television or newspaper refusing to
> do an
> activity you think is stupid is only going to make you poor and look
> foolish.
>
> Shannon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lesa McMahon-Lowe
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life
>
> No one is suggesting blindly following any law. And yeah, some
> laws are
> stupid. This is where we show our kids to stand up for and facilitate
> change. Not.... "well, all laws are stupid and they don't apply
> to us."
> This is where we show them the difference between democracy and
> other forms
> of government... where we show them the prices paid for freedom.
>
> Lesa
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: jnjstau@...
> Date: 03/10/06 19:44:07
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues
>
> <<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>
>
> Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right
> and wrong,
> being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my
> actions. That
> is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh risks,
> evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences and make
> a choice.
> I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all laws
> are for
> the good of the people.
>
> Julie S.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

<<..my son has written to congressman>>

We personally know our state representative but let's just say that you have more faith in the system than I do.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: S Drag-teine <dragteine@...>
Date: Monday, March 13, 2006 9:49 pm
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> "And it is important to note that in this country, my children
> have zero say
> in what laws are passed."
>
> You children do not have the right to vote but they do have a
> voice. They
> can talk to adults and their voice could reach through a closed
> mind. They
> can write or dictate in their own words to an adult who could
> write on their
> behalf to the right people. My son has written to congressmen
> about saving
> the Cheaspeke Bay. He heard my brother and I talking about a new
> bill that
> was passed and that I had just written letters encouraging grants
> to help
> farmers use new plans to cut down on run off.
>
> Shannon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [[email protected]] On Behalf Of jnjstau@...
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:30 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life
>
> <<where we show them the prices paid for freedom.>>
>
> I don't see the connection to mandatory seatbelt usage. Notice
> that I never
> posted "..all laws are stupid and don't apply to us." I said not
> all laws
> are for the good of the people. And it is important to note that
> in this
> country, my children have zero say in what laws are passed.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lesa McMahon-Lowe <lesajm@...>
> Date: Saturday, March 11, 2006 11:16 am
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life
>
> > No one is suggesting blindly following any law. And yeah, some
> > laws are
> > stupid. This is where we show our kids to stand up for and
> facilitate> change. Not.... "well, all laws are stupid and they
> don't apply
> > to us."
> > This is where we show them the difference between democracy and
> > other forms
> > of government... where we show them the prices paid for freedom.
> >
> > Lesa
> >
> > -------Original Message-------
> >
> > From: jnjstau@...
> > Date: 03/10/06 19:44:07
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Safety issues
> >
> > <<not wearing a seatbelt is ILLEGAL...>>
> >
> > Being illegal isn't a big thing to me. *I* decide what is right
> > and wrong,
> > being aware that there may be societal repurcussions for my
> > actions. That
> > is the example that I give my children. I hope they will weigh
> risks,> evaluate alternatives, be aware of possible consequences
> and make
> > a choice.
> > I would not want my kids to blindly follow any law. Not all
> laws
> > are for
> > the good of the people.
> >
> > Julie S.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Marge

--- In [email protected], jnjstau@... wrote:
>
> <<...we have a civic duty to bond together to use democracy to
change the law.>>
>
> But that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy. Something I
don't have an excess of right now. So I simply choose which laws I
will follow knowing full well that if caught I would have to face the
consequences.
>
> Some of the laws I don't follow:
>
> mandatory seatbelt law
> speed limit (I might do 70 in a 65)
> occassionally forge a doctor's signature (not a real doctor, just a
scribble with an MD behind it for things like needing a medical exam
for a non-strenuous youth activity)
> sell raw milk to friends who ask for it (spend a lot of time
discussing the pros and cons of pasteurization with people)
>
> These are laws that I see as personal choices rather than for the
greater good. The raw milk law is about money pure and simple (large
dairies must pasteurize because their milk is old by the time it gets
to the store, I sell it within 24 hours of being milked out). Large
dairies can pay for lobbyists, I don't have the time or energy to
raise those kinds of funds or to raise that kind of awareness.
>
> So I do what I think is best for me and mine and leave it at that.
If other people are happy with the laws, they should follow them.
>
> Julie S.

I agree with you on this Julie. But I have to say that, to my
knowledge, selling raw milk is not against the law--at least not here
in Maine. My ex-husband and I did it, his parents did it, and I know
of several dairy farms that sell directly from their bulk tank before
they ship it. (Well that's against the law if they have a contract)
But beyond that, I know of at least one local dairy that still
bottles, ships AND delivers their own UNpasteurized milk. It has
been my experience that it is more difficult to educate people
regarding the pros and cons of pasteurization vs non because of the
propaganda (scare tactics) that have been pushed by big
comglomerates. Like you said, I don't have the time or energy either.

Public school has been used to indoctrinate so much into this
society, and to perpetuate so many myths, it is scary IMHO.
(pasteurization, radon, and the list is endless.) And I don't have
much faith in the system either. I have watched too many people run
around in circles trying to change things within the system to little
or no avail...It SEEMS like it was all set up to keep us busy, and
thinking we can make a change, but it is all just a diversion. (Not
that change CAN'T be affected--it's just damned difficult)

just my $.02
Marge

[email protected]

Actually, you can sell raw milk in Texas IF you can get them to get you a license AND if you can afford it (several hundred dollars per year plus you have to pay to have them come inspect you). We do it just like people who sell farm eggs and that is illegal. We put milk in a fridge in the garage along with a money jar. Milk disappears and money shows up.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Marge <jorie6568@...>
Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 9:15 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> --- In [email protected], jnjstau@... wrote:
> >
> > <<...we have a civic duty to bond together to use democracy to
> change the law.>>
> >
> > But that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy.
> Something I
> don't have an excess of right now. So I simply choose which laws
> I
> will follow knowing full well that if caught I would have to face
> the
> consequences.
> >
> > Some of the laws I don't follow:
> >
> > mandatory seatbelt law
> > speed limit (I might do 70 in a 65)
> > occassionally forge a doctor's signature (not a real doctor,
> just a
> scribble with an MD behind it for things like needing a medical
> exam
> for a non-strenuous youth activity)
> > sell raw milk to friends who ask for it (spend a lot of time
> discussing the pros and cons of pasteurization with people)
> >
> > These are laws that I see as personal choices rather than for
> the
> greater good. The raw milk law is about money pure and simple
> (large
> dairies must pasteurize because their milk is old by the time it
> gets
> to the store, I sell it within 24 hours of being milked out).
> Large
> dairies can pay for lobbyists, I don't have the time or energy to
> raise those kinds of funds or to raise that kind of awareness.
> >
> > So I do what I think is best for me and mine and leave it at
> that.
> If other people are happy with the laws, they should follow them.
> >
> > Julie S.
>
> I agree with you on this Julie. But I have to say that, to my
> knowledge, selling raw milk is not against the law--at least not
> here
> in Maine. My ex-husband and I did it, his parents did it, and I
> know
> of several dairy farms that sell directly from their bulk tank
> before
> they ship it. (Well that's against the law if they have a
> contract)
> But beyond that, I know of at least one local dairy that still
> bottles, ships AND delivers their own UNpasteurized milk. It has
> been my experience that it is more difficult to educate people
> regarding the pros and cons of pasteurization vs non because of
> the
> propaganda (scare tactics) that have been pushed by big
> comglomerates. Like you said, I don't have the time or energy either.
>
> Public school has been used to indoctrinate so much into this
> society, and to perpetuate so many myths, it is scary IMHO.
> (pasteurization, radon, and the list is endless.) And I don't have
> much faith in the system either. I have watched too many people
> run
> around in circles trying to change things within the system to
> little
> or no avail...It SEEMS like it was all set up to keep us busy, and
> thinking we can make a change, but it is all just a diversion.
> (Not
> that change CAN'T be affected--it's just damned difficult)
>
> just my $.02
> Marge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Deb Lewis

***You children do not have the right to vote but they do have a voice.
They
can talk to adults and their voice could reach through a closed mind.***

It's not good enough.

Most children are not taken seriously by the adults in their lives. They
are certainly not taken seriously by our society. The evidence of this
is that they do not have a legal right to vote. Our society does not
trust them to be informed enough, knowledgeable enough, experienced
enough, or serious enough.

It was not "good enough" that women could talk to their husbands. Men
had the legal right to vote according to their own beliefs (or whims).
If a woman/wife thought very differently than her husband on a political
matter it was unlikely he would forfeit his vote to afford her a say.
If women had felt their husbands were representing them well enough they
would not have struggled so long and so hard for the right to vote.

It was not "good enough" that Black Americans might talk to sympathetic
friends.

It seems crazy to us today that our country once denied citizens the
right to vote based on gender or race but most of us don't think
seriously about our citizens who are denied rights based on their age.


Deb Lewis

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/14/2006 8:50:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:


> The raw milk law is about money pure and simple (large dairies must
> pasteurize because their milk is old by the time it gets to the store, I sell it
> within 24 hours of being milked out). Large dairies can pay for lobbyists, I
> don't have the time or energy to raise those kinds of funds or to raise that
> kind of awareness.
>

See there you go again Julie S., another post I enjoyed! <g> Although I don't
agree about the seatbelt issue (I was hit by a drunk driver, broke my neck,
was paralyzed from the neck down & laid up for a yr. from not wearing one. I'm
ok now though!)
I could not agree more with you here about the laws on pasteurization! I wish
you lived near me, I'd buy your milk! I'm always looking for raw milk! I have
found LOTS of other raw and pure foods around here but that is one thing I
have a hard time with. Are you talking cow or goat milk??? My girls want a goat
soooo bad but I told them if we get a goat, it will be for milking and I know
it's an every day job! (I think twice a day for goats???)

Didn't mean to get off the subject of "laws" Sorry!
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

We do goat milk. Here in the San Antonio area, we have quite an underground network for raw milk, cow and goat. There is a tremendous amount of sneaking around at Farmer's Markets, reminds me of scoring drugs which is rather sad. If you google raw milk and your area, you may find an underground network.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: barndogzzz@...
Date: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:45 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> In a message dated 3/14/2006 8:50:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jnjstau@... writes:
>
>
> > The raw milk law is about money pure and simple (large dairies
> must
> > pasteurize because their milk is old by the time it gets to the
> store, I sell it
> > within 24 hours of being milked out). Large dairies can pay for
> lobbyists, I
> > don't have the time or energy to raise those kinds of funds or
> to raise that
> > kind of awareness.
> >
>
> See there you go again Julie S., another post I enjoyed! <g>
> Although I don't
> agree about the seatbelt issue (I was hit by a drunk driver, broke
> my neck,
> was paralyzed from the neck down & laid up for a yr. from not
> wearing one. I'm
> ok now though!)
> I could not agree more with you here about the laws on
> pasteurization! I wish
> you lived near me, I'd buy your milk! I'm always looking for raw
> milk! I have
> found LOTS of other raw and pure foods around here but that is one
> thing I
> have a hard time with. Are you talking cow or goat milk??? My
> girls want a goat
> soooo bad but I told them if we get a goat, it will be for milking
> and I know
> it's an every day job! (I think twice a day for goats???)
>
> Didn't mean to get off the subject of "laws" Sorry!
> Nancy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/16/2006 11:20:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:

> reminds me of scoring drugs which is rather sad.

****Indeed it is sad....

"If you google raw milk and your area, you may find an underground network."

****Thanks, I hope I can find an underground network. A fellow hs friend of
mine mentioned that she had known someone that sells it but I never did get the
location. I'll have to do more digging.

Thanks Julie,
Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

patricia tidmore

Here in North Alabama raw milk is sold/given between neighbors freely
just as is fresh butter,eggs,meats and veggies.
Don't have a clue as to whether it is against the law.If it is the law turns
their heads.
Tricia

jnjstau@... wrote:
We do goat milk. Here in the San Antonio area, we have quite an underground network for raw milk, cow and goat. There is a tremendous amount of sneaking around at Farmer's Markets, reminds me of scoring drugs which is rather sad. If you google raw milk and your area, you may find an underground network.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: barndogzzz@...
Date: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:45 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Laws and Life

> In a message dated 3/14/2006 8:50:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jnjstau@... writes:
>
>
> > The raw milk law is about money pure and simple (large dairies
> must
> > pasteurize because their milk is old by the time it gets to the
> store, I sell it
> > within 24 hours of being milked out). Large dairies can pay for
> lobbyists, I
> > don't have the time or energy to raise those kinds of funds or
> to raise that
> > kind of awareness.
> >
>
> See there you go again Julie S., another post I enjoyed! <g>
> Although I don't
> agree about the seatbelt issue (I was hit by a drunk driver, broke
> my neck,
> was paralyzed from the neck down & laid up for a yr. from not
> wearing one. I'm
> ok now though!)
> I could not agree more with you here about the laws on
> pasteurization! I wish
> you lived near me, I'd buy your milk! I'm always looking for raw
> milk! I have
> found LOTS of other raw and pure foods around here but that is one
> thing I
> have a hard time with. Are you talking cow or goat milk??? My
> girls want a goat
> soooo bad but I told them if we get a goat, it will be for milking
> and I know
> it's an every day job! (I think twice a day for goats???)
>
> Didn't mean to get off the subject of "laws" Sorry!
> Nancy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



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"I am learning all the time,the tombstone will be my diploma"-Eartha Kitt

"Anyone can memorize facts and figures...the REAL way to learn is to get out and experience life and follow your curiosity!!"
-Quote from the movie Curious George


On March 18, 2003, two days before her son launched the
invasion of Iraq, Barbara Bush appeared on Good Morning
America. Our nation's "First Mother" asked Diane
Sawyer, "Why should we hear about body bags and death
and how many? . . . Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So
why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like
that."
Like mother, like son.

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