Ren Allen

"The mother was not happy that I "forced"
her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled that she
doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about riding
together next time."


If someone is in MY car, they wear a seatbelt. They have a choice to
not ride with me, but in my car they wear one. It's pretty simple in
my book, because I can get fined for passengers not buckled and I'm
not willing to live with regret if someone was injured or killed due
to not wearing a seatbelt in my car. I can't live with that.

BUT, my kids love taking their seatbelts of at times...I let them know
when I feel comfortable with that. Parking lots or driveways for
example. My kids loved taking their seatbelts off as we pulled into
our driveway in Pensacola and yell "surfing!". Great fun.

I have children that live without restrictions on food, or cable or
computers or video games. They're healthy, happy and intelligent...an
not particularly fascinated with any of the above items (other than
Trevor who is a major tech geek).

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

<<"The mother was not happy that I "forced"
her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled that she
doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about riding
together next time.">>
*************************************
I agree but what this mom wrote above "forced" can appear alarming depending
how it was done. That is my issue with this conversation. I refuse to
promote "force" (equal as in police use of force) attached to unschooling. Safety
is good but force is NOT the solution with a child in this situation. Force
does NOT equal unschooling..
Laura
*******************************


<<If someone is in MY car, they wear a seatbelt. They have a choice to
not ride with me, but in my car they wear one. It's pretty simple in
my book, because I can get fined for passengers not buckled and I'm
not willing to live with regret if someone was injured or killed due
to not wearing a seatbelt in my car. I can't live with that.

BUT, my kids love taking their seatbelts of at times...I let them know
when I feel comfortable with that. Parking lots or driveways for
example. My kids loved taking their seatbelts off as we pulled into
our driveway in Pensacola and yell "surfing!". Great fun.

I have children that live without restrictions on food, or cable or
computers or video games. They're healthy, happy and intelligent...an
not particularly fascinated with any of the above items (other than
Trevor who is a major tech geek).

Ren
learninginfreedom.com>>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

"I agree but what this mom wrote above "forced" can appear alarming
depending
how it was done."

The word forced was the mother's not mine.

We all got in my mini-van and I got my DD secured in her car seat and
checked with my DS that he was buckled in - I got - I already did it mom! I
responded that that was great. The other mother climbed in the front next to
me and I looked back and her daughter was unbuckled.

I always give a choice that I guess isn't always much of a choice but I
asked her, "Can you buckle yourself in or do you need help?" She responded
that she didn't need help. I fiddled with my MP3 player to find my son's
requested song and looked back again and she was still needed to buckle her
seatbelt.

I repeated that her seatbelt needed buckled and that I knew my backseat was
sometimes tricky. The seatbelts sometimes hide between and they can be
difficult for the kids to find. She responded that she didn't want to buckle
her seat belt.

My DS ever the helper said that he could do it. Jumped up and helped her
buckle her seat belt. It wasn't even me who buckled it. My son is used to us
have younger and older kids in our mini-van needing help finding the buckle.

The other mother was noticeably irritated when I asked her the problem she
went on and on about that unschoolers don't have rules and that she would
never force her daughter to buckle her seat belt and then on and on about
the other things my family does wrong as unschoolers. How it is one thing to
be safe and another to be neurotic about it.

I didn't want to share the full story I guess because I was afraid she was
right and that - while I will accept that occasionally I have some control
issues that I try very hard to bring my son the world he wants not the one I
want him to be in. To be honest, I have found that my son's world is simple,
peaceful and fun - mine would have been full of stuff to do but potentially
less fun.

It makes me feel worlds better that there other unschoolers concerned with
safety and I now feel less neurotic. I don't know yet what I am going to say
to the other mother...maybe I will just suggest that we ride separately next
time.

Thank you everyone who responded...

Shannon


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of HMSL2@...
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 8:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] safety issues


<<"The mother was not happy that I "forced"
her daughter to wear a seat belt and I am personally appalled that she
doesn't. I think we both will have to think long and hard about riding
together next time.">>
*************************************
I agree but what this mom wrote above "forced" can appear alarming
depending
how it was done. That is my issue with this conversation. I refuse to
promote "force" (equal as in police use of force) attached to unschooling.
Safety
is good but force is NOT the solution with a child in this situation. Force

does NOT equal unschooling..
Laura
*******************************


<<If someone is in MY car, they wear a seatbelt. They have a choice to
not ride with me, but in my car they wear one. It's pretty simple in
my book, because I can get fined for passengers not buckled and I'm
not willing to live with regret if someone was injured or killed due
to not wearing a seatbelt in my car. I can't live with that.

BUT, my kids love taking their seatbelts of at times...I let them know
when I feel comfortable with that. Parking lots or driveways for
example. My kids loved taking their seatbelts off as we pulled into
our driveway in Pensacola and yell "surfing!". Great fun.

I have children that live without restrictions on food, or cable or
computers or video games. They're healthy, happy and intelligent...an
not particularly fascinated with any of the above items (other than
Trevor who is a major tech geek).

Ren
learninginfreedom.com>>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

Su Penn

On Mar 10, 2006, at 8:28 AM, HMSL2@... wrote:

> I agree but what this mom wrote above "forced" can appear alarming
> depending
> how it was done. That is my issue with this conversation. I refuse to
> promote "force" (equal as in police use of force) attached to
> unschooling. Safety
> is good but force is NOT the solution with a child in this
> situation. Force
> does NOT equal unschooling..

What's a solution, then, do you think, in the moment? Imagine that
Mom 1 requires seatbelts in her car; Mom 2 does not. Mom 2 and her
kids are riding with Mom 1, and there's not much opportunity to
change that for this outing though not sharing rides could be a
solution in the future. Mom 2 will not ask her kids to wear seatbelts
in Mom 1's car. What can Mom 1 do?

I'm shifting this to a hypothetical because that wasn't the question
the original poster asked about and I don't want her to feel like
we're talking about what she should have done. But I'm having trouble
generating solutions and wonder what people think.

Su

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:03:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dragteine@... writes:

<<The other mother was noticeably irritated when I asked her the problem she
went on and on about that unschoolers don't have rules and that she would
never force her daughter to buckle her seat belt and then on and on about
the other things my family does wrong as unschoolers. How it is one thing to
be safe and another to be neurotic about it.>>
She should have respected your family value/safety/love for everyone's good
health.

The other mom was wrong. I think I get was she was "trying" to say but seems
as if she did have great issues with you so much so she felt the needed to
draw attention to that.

Rules are something that unschoolers don't agree with but not in the way she
used it. Safety is important and we do have values. Some take that deeper
and call them rules. If a family eats dinner together that's a value. If you
choose to eat alone and are disciplined for doing so that's a rule/punishment.
That in turn takes the value out of family bc then the joy and happiness had
just been removed.

What took place is much different than what I had in my mind.

I would consider a discussion before the next trip if at all.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I personally wouldn't be so rough on the other mom. She has a different comfort level, etc.. She should have respected Shannon's space and followed Shannon's lead there. She didn't.

If it were me and it came up for us to drive somewhere together again, I would simply say to the other mom "You know I've got a thing about seat belts, is that a problem?" I would have probably said it before the first outing. If there is something that I am adamant about in any situation, I try to be very upfront with it (for example, people don't use racial, sexual or gender slurs around me unless they want to be called on it). In over 40 years, it has cost me a grand total of one relationship.

When you set a boundary, you can expect to need to defend that boundary at least once.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: HMSL2@...
Date: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:31 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] safety issues

> In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:03:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> dragteine@... writes:
>
> <<The other mother was noticeably irritated when I asked her the
> problem she
> went on and on about that unschoolers don't have rules and that
> she would
> never force her daughter to buckle her seat belt and then on and
> on about
> the other things my family does wrong as unschoolers. How it is
> one thing to
> be safe and another to be neurotic about it.>>
> She should have respected your family value/safety/love for
> everyone's good
> health.
>
> The other mom was wrong. I think I get was she was "trying" to say
> but seems
> as if she did have great issues with you so much so she felt the
> needed to
> draw attention to that.
>
> Rules are something that unschoolers don't agree with but not in
> the way she
> used it. Safety is important and we do have values. Some take that
> deeper
> and call them rules. If a family eats dinner together that's a
> value. If you
> choose to eat alone and are disciplined for doing so that's a
> rule/punishment.
> That in turn takes the value out of family bc then the joy and
> happiness had
> just been removed.
>
> What took place is much different than what I had in my mind.
>
> I would consider a discussion before the next trip if at all.
> Laura
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Su Penn

On Mar 10, 2006, at 12:00 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> My DS ever the helper said that he could do it. Jumped up and
> helped her
> buckle her seat belt. It wasn't even me who buckled it. My son is
> used to us
> have younger and older kids in our mini-van needing help finding
> the buckle.
>
> The other mother was noticeably irritated when I asked her the
> problem she
> went on and on about that unschoolers don't have rules and that she
> would
> never force her daughter to buckle her seat belt and then on and on
> about
> the other things my family does wrong as unschoolers.

Thanks for telling more of this story. What was interesting to me
about it was that the daughter didn't seem to object to being
buckled--that she might not have done it on her own but didn't seem
to distressed about having it done. But the mother took what sounds
like a fairly gentle and straightforward request and offer of help
meeting the request as "forcing." And then used that as an excuse to
let you know about your other character flaws as well....ewwww.

Perhaps this mother thinks of any request or persuasion as "forcing."
Which would be an interesting discussion, I think--at what point does
persuasion become coercion?

Su

[email protected]

Time..breathing and not setting a child up as clearly appears to be what
took place here.

The mom (of the un-seat-belted child)should have known her choice of no
seatbelts would be an issue for nearly all drivers. I wonder is this mom has a
car and drives?
She needs a reality check and should have seen it coming. A freedom of no
seat belts IS a safety issue not to mention against the law. All I am suggesting
is time. Being in a rush is challenging but I personally wouldn't put my
child in another car and expect that driver to risk being fined.
For clarity my kids wear seatbelts and I am not advocating going without at
all...
Laura

>>>What's a solution, then, do you think, in the moment? Imagine that
Mom 1 requires seatbelts in her car; Mom 2 does not. Mom 2 and her
kids are riding with Mom 1, and there's not much opportunity to
change that for this outing though not sharing rides could be a
solution in the future. Mom 2 will not ask her kids to wear seatbelts
in Mom 1's car. What can Mom 1 do?

I'm shifting this to a hypothetical because that wasn't the question
the original poster asked about and I don't want her to feel like
we're talking about what she should have done. But I'm having trouble
generating solutions and wonder what people think.

Su>>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

"I'm shifting this to a hypothetical because that wasn't the question
the original poster asked about and I don't want her to feel like
we're talking about what she should have done. But I'm having trouble
generating solutions and wonder what people think.

Su"

I am fine - with any suggestions... even of what I could do next time.

Shannon

S Drag-teine

"You know I've got a thing about seat belts, is that a problem?"

I will remember that... I have never thought about seatbelts being an issue.
Now I do.

Shannon
Melaleuca Customer

Join our club and swap paperback books for FREE - PaperBackSwap.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of jnjstau@...
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] safety issues

I personally wouldn't be so rough on the other mom. She has a different
comfort level, etc.. She should have respected Shannon's space and followed
Shannon's lead there. She didn't.

If it were me and it came up for us to drive somewhere together again, I
would simply say to the other mom "You know I've got a thing about seat
belts, is that a problem?" I would have probably said it before the first
outing. If there is something that I am adamant about in any situation, I
try to be very upfront with it (for example, people don't use racial, sexual
or gender slurs around me unless they want to be called on it). In over 40
years, it has cost me a grand total of one relationship.

When you set a boundary, you can expect to need to defend that boundary at
least once.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: HMSL2@...
Date: Friday, March 10, 2006 11:31 am
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] safety issues

> In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:03:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> dragteine@... writes:
>
> <<The other mother was noticeably irritated when I asked her the
> problem she
> went on and on about that unschoolers don't have rules and that
> she would
> never force her daughter to buckle her seat belt and then on and
> on about
> the other things my family does wrong as unschoolers. How it is
> one thing to
> be safe and another to be neurotic about it.>>
> She should have respected your family value/safety/love for
> everyone's good
> health.
>
> The other mom was wrong. I think I get was she was "trying" to say
> but seems
> as if she did have great issues with you so much so she felt the
> needed to
> draw attention to that.
>
> Rules are something that unschoolers don't agree with but not in
> the way she
> used it. Safety is important and we do have values. Some take that
> deeper
> and call them rules. If a family eats dinner together that's a
> value. If you
> choose to eat alone and are disciplined for doing so that's a
> rule/punishment.
> That in turn takes the value out of family bc then the joy and
> happiness had
> just been removed.
>
> What took place is much different than what I had in my mind.
>
> I would consider a discussion before the next trip if at all.
> Laura
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

Ren Allen

"It's refreshing to hear that there's someone else out there that
understands that unschooling doesn't mean your kid is a 'little adult'
with all the knowledge and abilities an adult has to be able to find
the information they need to make informed decisions."

Hmmmmm.....
this list is here to examine and encourage a partnership with your
children. While I don't see children as "little adults" (that would be
disrespecting their development) I also think they DO have quite a bit
of wisdom in making choices and I am here to assist them in that
exploration of the world.

Unlimited sugar, tv and no bedtimes, does not equal a "free for all".
What it means around here is that my children will roast marshmallows
and throw one away because they've decided they have had enough. My
5y.o. will eat brocolli for dinner and all of them know how to listen
to their bodies. They do it better than I!!

They'll turn down a lot of things I wouldn't have. Balance is a
wonderful thing and you can't learn to feel balance when another human
being is making a bunch of decisions for you.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Paige

> Unlimited sugar, tv and no bedtimes, does not equal a "free for all".
> They'll turn down a lot of things I wouldn't have. Balance is a
> wonderful thing and you can't learn to feel balance when another
human
> being is making a bunch of decisions for you.
> Ren


You are so right! I think it was fairly well demonstrated in a post
about ps friends spending the night and eating everything in the
house...obviously didn't know when to stop, there was no link to their
internal balance.
I have a cousin who was raised by a very strict mom...no sweets, only
healthy food, ect...whenever she and her brother came to our house
they gorged themselves on our candy. Every single time they came!
Their mom eventually found out about it and made them stop coming. If
they had been given free rein in their food usage, I don't think they
would have rebelled so...my brother, sister and I had complete freedom
and LOVED to go to their house and eat all the wonderful "healthy"
things her mom made. I do believe she would have enjoyed them more if
it hadn't been such an issue.
If you are (as in a school) being told when to eat and when to drink
and when to "go", how can you learn to listen to your body? Instead
you learn to ignore the messages your body sends.
Paige

Lesa McMahon-Lowe

I sort-of see this just as I would see it if it were about smoking in
someone else's home. It's about respect. I have a non-smoking home and
would never think that someone would come into my home and just light-up
knowing that there is no smoking in my home.

It's her choice... ride with you = wear a seatbelt. Just as it would be
riding a carnival ride... want to ride = buckle up! It's that simple.
There is no issue here! None. Zip.

That mom was out of line telling Shannon that she doesn't unschool because
they have to wear seatbelts in her car. Out of line because she's imposing
her views about so called "schooly" things. Since when does unschooling
give anyone a right to tell someone else what to do? You could be so anti
this or that... that you know longer unschool because your anti becomes the
only thing that is allowed in your home.

Lesa

-------Original Message-------

From: Su Penn
Date: 03/10/06 11:42:55
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] safety issues


On Mar 10, 2006, at 8:28 AM, HMSL2@... wrote:

> I agree but what this mom wrote above "forced" can appear alarming
> depending
> how it was done. That is my issue with this conversation. I refuse to
> promote "force" (equal as in police use of force) attached to
> unschooling. Safety
> is good but force is NOT the solution with a child in this
> situation. Force
> does NOT equal unschooling..

What's a solution, then, do you think, in the moment? Imagine that
Mom 1 requires seatbelts in her car; Mom 2 does not. Mom 2 and her
kids are riding with Mom 1, and there's not much opportunity to
change that for this outing though not sharing rides could be a
solution in the future. Mom 2 will not ask her kids to wear seatbelts
in Mom 1's car. What can Mom 1 do?

I'm shifting this to a hypothetical because that wasn't the question
the original poster asked about and I don't want her to feel like
we're talking about what she should have done. But I'm having trouble
generating solutions and wonder what people think.

Su



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

" Since when does unschooling
give anyone a right to tell someone else what to do? "

That's what I was thinking. If that other Mom does things differently,
that's fine, but beating Shannon up over her choices (unschooling or
not) was inappropriate in my opinion.

I have friends that don't unschool, some that unschool but control
several things we don't, I never felt like it was my place to tell
them how to do things unless they asked. I do share bits and pieces
when appropriate of course.

Last week a Mom commented that she doesn't allow violent video games
in their home and I said "we don't control our children's choices".
I told her what WE did, not what SHE should do.

I think that Mom was totally wrong to tell you that you aren't an
unschooler (whether you are or aren't!) and to attack your choices.
It's much better to surround yourself with friends that can at least
be tolerant with differences.

I think one important aspect of unschooling/learning/life is learning
that other people have different boundaries and sensitivities than we
do and how to respect that. Going into someone elses home, or car
means some things will be different than in our own home...unschooler
or not.
If she's modeling to her child, that THEIR values should be imposed on
other people wherever they go, that's not a great skill at getting
along in this life.

If someone's values are so different that we can't be comfortable in
their home, we don't go there.
I don't see how wearing a seatbelt infringes on anyone's rights when
in another persons car. Cripes. It didn't sound like the child had any
issues with it either...funny how the Mom made it all about herself
really.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

S Drag-teine

There was a lot covered in a short time while my family had a rush of
activity both good and bad - short story - husband has been dealing with a
car accident involving a co-worker backing up into him - younger sister
coming home from Florida - other sister getting a job interview for a
promising career - my brother getting the stomach flu and a flat tire.

I just wanted to truly thank everyone, she is someone I have known for a
long time and I care about deeply. I still haven't talked to her but I will
think greatly about what everyone has said - you have all given a great
variety of perspectives and I will call her tomorrow.

Shannon