Kimberly

I has been reading both sides of this. Let me share my situation.

My daughter is almost 5 and for the last 6 months we have done away
with bed times. I can say that durring this time I have felt so out
of sorts. She stays up till past 2am, and gets up at 9am. I was used
to going to bed at midnight and getting up with her. No matter what
time she goes to bed she seems to get up at the same time. In 6
months, having to stay up as late as my child to make shure she is
safe, my sleep scedual is a mess and my daughter is grumpy as ever
and is now in a fight everything phase. You give her what she asks
for and she screams at us for something else. Giving her control has
seemed to do little more then make her attitude worse. With Hubby
working couble shifts, and my lack of self countrol, like my
daughters, I am going to bed at 7am and sleeping till 5pm, leaving
my roomate who hates unschooling to watch my daughter for me. I hate
this, but I can not seem to fix my sleeping scedual. I am going to
try very hard to be in bed by 2am, but that means my daughter needs
to be. I am too worn out to clean up another 3am tea party of hers.
I only have so much energy.

Right now I am really thinking that she, as well as I, need a bed
time so we can function fully in the world and be happy.

Everyone is different, and I am seeing it as a great danger to my
family to be so unstructered. My daughter does not seem to like
having all these choices. I know personally, I do not always know
what is good for me or how to get it. I know I am asking friend and
family to help me get my day time night time life back together for
the betterment of all. Some kids do not know how to ask for that
help, does not mean they do not need it!

Blessings,
Kimmy

P.S. Would love to hear more about kids who do not have bed times
and how it all works out.

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Hi, Kimmy,

It sounds like you are in quite a difficult spot with your bedtime
situation! Getting no sleep or giving up time during the day to sleep
yourself, and living with a grumpy daughter is certainly a situation I
wouldn't want to be in. I can understand why you are feeling like limits
were better! If you sincerely feel that you just need to go back to setting
a bedtime, then I respect that is where you are at. If you feel you'd like
to find some kind of alternate arrangement where your daughter can still
have some choice and autonomy and where you can also get your needs met,
then I have a few thoughts for you to consider.

You mentioned that you feel compelled to stay up with your daughter to make
sure she is safe. One of the things that works well for me to get my kids
(5 & 3) to bed in a non-coercive way when they really do seem flat out tired
is for me to head to bed myself. How would you feel about trying that for a
few nights and seeing if she follows? You can lie there awake and listen
for any problems - certainly if my kids are not tired they could care less
if I'm in bed generally, but if they are tired (and it sounds like with her
clock set off to get up early all the time, your daughter could be
overtired) mine do follow and I'm wondering if your daughter might do the
same.

Another option I'd explore in your situation which I've been in with other
issues, but not bedtime ones, is talking to her about the situation and your
feelings. Let her know what you observe about her grumpiness, that it's
more fun for Mom when she is not grumpy, that you need more sleep, and see
if you can all come up with a solution together. Maybe you can agree on a
time at night to start "winding down" in bed. I know for me agreements that
take into consideration all our needs may feel better than my imposing rules
and they leave the door open to changes and future discussions. Could be
that after a while your daughter's clock will get deregulated and allow her
to sleep in.

I hope you do not feel that these suggestions are attacking your decisions.
I respect whatever decision you feel you need to make, but it sounds like
you see some benefit to your daughter having choices and feeling involved
and I think you may be able to get your needs met without going back to
setting a bedtime if you desire to do so.

Cheers,

Joan

-----Original Message-----
From: Kimberly [mailto:Kontessa_Rose@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Everyone is Different -- Bed Times



I has been reading both sides of this. Let me share my situation.

My daughter is almost 5 and for the last 6 months we have done away
with bed times. I can say that durring this time I have felt so out
of sorts. She stays up till past 2am, and gets up at 9am. I was used
to going to bed at midnight and getting up with her. No matter what
time she goes to bed she seems to get up at the same time. In 6
months, having to stay up as late as my child to make shure she is
safe, my sleep scedual is a mess and my daughter is grumpy as ever
and is now in a fight everything phase. You give her what she asks
for and she screams at us for something else. Giving her control has
seemed to do little more then make her attitude worse. With Hubby
working couble shifts, and my lack of self countrol, like my
daughters, I am going to bed at 7am and sleeping till 5pm, leaving
my roomate who hates unschooling to watch my daughter for me. I hate
this, but I can not seem to fix my sleeping scedual. I am going to
try very hard to be in bed by 2am, but that means my daughter needs
to be. I am too worn out to clean up another 3am tea party of hers.
I only have so much energy.

Right now I am really thinking that she, as well as I, need a bed
time so we can function fully in the world and be happy.

Everyone is different, and I am seeing it as a great danger to my
family to be so unstructered. My daughter does not seem to like
having all these choices. I know personally, I do not always know
what is good for me or how to get it. I know I am asking friend and
family to help me get my day time night time life back together for
the betterment of all. Some kids do not know how to ask for that
help, does not mean they do not need it!

Blessings,
Kimmy

P.S. Would love to hear more about kids who do not have bed times
and how it all works out.






Yahoo! Groups Links

Robyn Coburn

<<<<My daughter is almost 5 and for the last 6 months we have done away
with bed times. I can say that durring this time I have felt so out
of sorts. She stays up till past 2am, and gets up at 9am. I was used
to going to bed at midnight and getting up with her. No matter what
time she goes to bed she seems to get up at the same time. In 6
months, having to stay up as late as my child to make shure she is
safe, my sleep scedual is a mess and my daughter is grumpy as ever
and is now in a fight everything phase. You give her what she asks
for and she screams at us for something else. Giving her control has
seemed to do little more then make her attitude worse. With Hubby
working couble shifts, and my lack of self countrol, like my
daughters, I am going to bed at 7am and sleeping till 5pm, leaving
my roomate who hates unschooling to watch my daughter for me. I hate
this, but I can not seem to fix my sleeping scedual. I am going to
try very hard to be in bed by 2am, but that means my daughter needs
to be. I am too worn out to clean up another 3am tea party of hers.
I only have so much energy. >>>>

I want to make sure I am understanding you.

Your almost 5yo is sleeping a pretty predictable if unorthodox schedule, but
you are not on the same one. She is getting less than 7 hours of sleep per
night, and then you are basically putting her into an uncongenial day care
situation in order to get sufficient rest yourself of about 10 hours.
Somewhere here there is another daughter or was that a typo?

You sound like you are feeling very frustrated, very alone, and perhaps
unsupported by your dh - not intentionally but because he is out of the
house.

I would immediately suspect, very strongly, that it is being left with your
roommate for 8+ hours on a daily basis and you unavailable, and her strongly
desiring more interaction with you, that is causing more of the behavior and
attitude problems, than being "given choices". You do not describe what her
activities are like during that time, only that the care-giver "hates"
unschooling. Yikes!

However, I also think when control is relaxed suddenly it can be like a
rubber band snapping, instead of a window gently opening (mixed metaphor but
I think it does the job). You said that she is "still grumpy", which makes
me think that you were using sleep choices as a solution to a specific
problem. Perhaps you mis-identified the cause of the grumpiness, since it is
still there, and the real cause is something else.

Jayn gets really grumpy with her Daddy when he has been spending a lot of
time out of the house (while she is awake). He makes a special effort to
reconnect with her, pretty much not reacting emotionally to her "go aways"
and raspberries, in favor of asking her if she is upset, and why, and would
she like to go wrestle (their special game) for a while ("Yes! Let's
wrestle!"). That helps more than getting angry at her for being
developmentally unable to just say, "Gee I missed you, can you give me some
of your time and attention for a while?"

<<<Everyone is different, and I am seeing it as a great danger to my
family to be so unstructered. My daughter does not seem to like
having all these choices.>>>

I only saw you mention one relaxed choice - bedtimes. It seems that in one
other important area, when she can get your attention, she has no choices
whatsoever. That sounds harsh. I don't mean it to be, because it sounds to
me like you are on the right track of asking your loved ones to help YOU get
back into rhythm with your child. Demanding that *she* change may not be as
workable. Is she getting enough sleep? Is there some external factor waking
her at 9am? Is she in the same bed as you are? What is keeping *you* up if
she is going to bed between 2 and 3, other than just being on a bad
schedule? Was there some major event to push you to 7am?

Not getting much day/sunlight also makes me feel more tired than otherwise,
but we are on a rotating schedule so my night living is brief. When I am
extra tired I make an effort to move more gently, to keep reminding myself
that I am tired and so to think carefully before I speak. I also tell Jayn
and dh that I am feeling tired, so that I can stem some of the requests that
way. Nor do I bother with tidying up Jayn's last couple of games before bed.


As someone who has done a lot of odd changing shift work in my time,
including working graveyard for a long time in an all night café, I can tell
you that in trying to switch your schedule, going to bed before you are
sleepy is futile without pharmaceutical help of some kind. My dh swears by
melatonin. The best thing I and many of my colleagues in the film biz have
found, is to force yourself to stay awake "around the clock" once, until the
desired "normal" bedtime is reached. In your case that might be when your dd
is going to bed - at around 2am.

My suggestion would be to organize your baby-sitter just for the around
three hours of overlap from when she gets up at 9am until you want to get up
at 12.00, if you still need 10 hours. Sometimes sleeping a lot longer than
usual is a sign of depression.

I totally sympathize with the desire to be near dd when she is awake. I
mentioned in my other post that I lie down on the sofa near Jayn. Can you
have a really special enjoyable activity that she can do in the bedroom near
your bed (if that is where you sleep) to allow you to at least snooze?

<<<I know personally, I do not always know
what is good for me or how to get it. I know I am asking friend and
family to help me get my day time night time life back together for
the betterment of all. Some kids do not know how to ask for that
help, does not mean they do not need it!>>>>

I'm worried that you are mixing a bunch of issues into one maelstrom of
difficulty. You may not be aware of how much you are using some very
negative self-talk and negative self-labeling, and that you are sliding
these across to your kids - possibly without real foundation. Being
"contrary" is a great part of being almost 5 years old. It doesn't mean that
she will always lack self control. Do you have a friend or someone with whom
you could talk about your own issues, outside of parenting?

Robyn L. Coburn

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earthmothergypsy

Personally I believe that kids do need some bounderies and when they
do not get them, they act out as your dd is doing. You can give them
freedom and let the learn as they learn, but they are also part of a
family and the family has to be able to function. Even the "famiy"
has routine to follow and rules they have to follow and it is
important that our kids learn that life has rules that they will have
to follow. Setting some bounderies with the understanding that it is
not a punishment but so the whole family can function in a better way-
-you know, cooperation, working together-- isn't a bad thing. I am
not saying you have to set up strict rules or anything like that, but
finding ways that will work involving the whole family in the
decision making. This way she is part of the decision and has say in
the choices and sees/understands what is going on and why.

I hope that makes sense. What I am trying to say is really hard to
put into words. :)

We don't have set bedtimes, but our little girls (ages 6yr and 2yr)
tend to fall asleep early and we carry them off to the family bed.
Our older ds (15yr) chooses when he is ready for bed and ready for
sleep. We had bedtimes for the kids when they were in PS, but as
homeschoolers/unschoolers, we don't need them. Which we LOVE!!!

Have you tried having your dd come lay down with you at a certain
time for bed. Turn out the lights and let her wrestle around until
she falls into slumber? This might be an easy way to start getting
her used to falling asleep earlier. Just a thought.

~Amanda



> My daughter is almost 5 and for the last 6 months we have done
away
> with bed times. I can say that durring this time I have felt so out
> of sorts. She stays up till past 2am, and gets up at 9am. I was
used
> to going to bed at midnight and getting up with her. No matter what
> time she goes to bed she seems to get up at the same time. In 6
> months, having to stay up as late as my child to make shure she is
> safe, my sleep scedual is a mess and my daughter is grumpy as ever
> and is now in a fight everything phase. You give her what she asks
> for and she screams at us for something else. Giving her control
has
> seemed to do little more then make her attitude worse. > Right now
I am really thinking that she, as well as I, need a bed
> time so we can function fully in the world and be happy.
>
> Everyone is different, and I am seeing it as a great danger to my
> family to be so unstructered. My daughter does not seem to like
> having all these choices. I know personally, I do not always know
> what is good for me or how to get it. I know I am asking friend and
> family to help me get my day time night time life back together for
> the betterment of all. Some kids do not know how to ask for that
> help, does not mean they do not need it!
>
> Blessings,
> Kimmy
>

Kimberly

Joan, I do think your understanding where I am coming from in this.
I am very agrivated with how we all seem to drained from lack of
sleep and I asume lack of scedual. I know personally I like being
able to count on certain things through out the day. I know before
Crystal used to get very upset at 5pm when Daddy normally came home
but then didn't. Now with him working double shift, we have no idea
when he will start or come home. Chances are though, Crystal feeds
off of my emotions at those times even if I think I am not showing
them. Best she learns to go with what happens, unlike me, having been
programmed to find comfort in the systems.

Ok, so we can not force change on anyone. So trying to change my
daughters sleep patterns is not likely to work. I have to leave her
to learn for herself by providing a good example. I think that going
to bed and staying awake to listen is worth trying. If nothing else I
read in bed as is, and it could provide me good wind down time on her
scedual. I can change myself, though the will power has not been my
strong point in this battle against the sleep demon! I always asumed
I had to go to bed after her.... {shaked head free of clouds} it
still amazes me how many things I asume about life must be true
simply because that is how I saw things growing up.

I do want my child to have choices, and to know that her needs and
wants are just as important as mine. I am finding it hard though
drawing the line between as important and more important seeing she
seems to demand that her needs and wants are more important than mine
and I very much do not like having to say no to her.

Example: I am ill... still not sure how badly. But I get sick, alot.
And when I go to the bath room to get sick I lock the door, I need my
space for many times I end up a crumble on the floor in tears. I do
not want anyone to see that. My daughter demands to come in, and
pounds on the door, and just will not give me a moments peace.
Picture me getting sick and yelling at her to go play.... Lots of
Stress.

Blessings,
Kimberly

--- In [email protected], "Joan Labbe & Salvatore
Genovese" <salgenovese@w...> wrote:
> Hi, Kimmy,
>
> It sounds like you are in quite a difficult spot with your bedtime
> situation! Getting no sleep or giving up time during the day to
sleep
> yourself, and living with a grumpy daughter is certainly a
situation I
> wouldn't want to be in. I can understand why you are feeling like
limits
> were better! If you sincerely feel that you just need to go back
to setting
> a bedtime, then I respect that is where you are at. If you feel
you'd like
> to find some kind of alternate arrangement where your daughter can
still
> have some choice and autonomy and where you can also get your needs
met,
> then I have a few thoughts for you to consider.
>
> You mentioned that you feel compelled to stay up with your daughter
to make
> sure she is safe. One of the things that works well for me to get
my kids
> (5 & 3) to bed in a non-coercive way when they really do seem flat
out tired
> is for me to head to bed myself. How would you feel about trying
that for a
> few nights and seeing if she follows? You can lie there awake and
listen
> for any problems - certainly if my kids are not tired they could
care less
> if I'm in bed generally, but if they are tired (and it sounds like
with her
> clock set off to get up early all the time, your daughter could be
> overtired) mine do follow and I'm wondering if your daughter might
do the
> same.
>
> Another option I'd explore in your situation which I've been in
with other
> issues, but not bedtime ones, is talking to her about the situation
and your
> feelings. Let her know what you observe about her grumpiness, that
it's
> more fun for Mom when she is not grumpy, that you need more sleep,
and see
> if you can all come up with a solution together. Maybe you can
agree on a
> time at night to start "winding down" in bed. I know for me
agreements that
> take into consideration all our needs may feel better than my
imposing rules
> and they leave the door open to changes and future discussions.
Could be
> that after a while your daughter's clock will get deregulated and
allow her
> to sleep in.
>
> I hope you do not feel that these suggestions are attacking your
decisions.
> I respect whatever decision you feel you need to make, but it
sounds like
> you see some benefit to your daughter having choices and feeling
involved
> and I think you may be able to get your needs met without going
back to
> setting a bedtime if you desire to do so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joan
>
>

TreeGoddess

On Jun 26, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Kimberly wrote:

> Example: I am ill... still not sure how badly. But I get sick, alot.
> And when I go to the bath room to get sick I lock the door, I need my
> space for many times I end up a crumble on the floor in tears. I do
> not want anyone to see that. My daughter demands to come in, and
> pounds on the door, and just will not give me a moments peace.
> Picture me getting sick and yelling at her to go play.... Lots of
> Stress.

Kimberly,

Why not just let her in? Maybe she's really worried about you and is
scared of what "scary" thing is happening behind the door that makes
Mama cry. Then you wouldn't have to be yelling at her and she wouldn't
be pounding on the door. If she doesn't want to watch you throw up
then she's not likely to follow you in there again. KWIM? OTOH, she
may want to "be there" for you as you would be for her if she was
sick/throwing up/sad. Maybe she's panicking because she's not able to
get to you to help and comfort you. Just a few thoughts. :)

-Tracy-

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

"I do want my child to have choices, and to know that her needs and
wants are just as important as mine. I am finding it hard though
drawing the line between as important and more important seeing she
seems to demand that her needs and wants are more important than mine
and I very much do not like having to say no to her.

Example: I am ill... still not sure how badly. But I get sick, alot.
And when I go to the bath room to get sick I lock the door, I need my
space for many times I end up a crumble on the floor in tears. I do
not want anyone to see that. My daughter demands to come in, and
pounds on the door, and just will not give me a moments peace.
Picture me getting sick and yelling at her to go play.... Lots of
Stress.

Blessings,
Kimberly"

Hey, Kimberley,

I'm really sorry to hear you're sick and I hear what you are saying - it's
so hard when your needs and your kids needs are not the same! And I know
that for me, I give so much because I care of course, often deferring my own
desires and needs, so that when I have something that feels really
important - like the bathroom situation you described for you - that is
about my needs, I often feel quite frustrated that my kids seem unable to
just "get it" that yes I do need this!

I have found out through trial and error that my kids can't tune in like
another adult to sense my needs, much as I'd like them to, but that if I
talk to them and make the needs clear in a way they can understand then
their ability to care about my needs and respond to them is amazing. So if
I had the stress of your bathroom situation and I wanted to get rid of that
stress but get my privacy, I'd find a time when I was feeling better to talk
to my daughter about the situation - I'd let my daughter know that I
understand her desire to be with me and know what's going on behind a closed
door. Then to take the mystery away I'd describe that I was sick and
feeling awful and that I needed some time alone and ask her if there was
something she could do while Mommy was feeling that way so that I could have
that privacy. Even if we didn't come up with something that felt
definitive, my experience is that I'd hear how much she cared, I'd her
trying as best she could and that would likely be enough to take the edge
off my frustration.

The other day we had a scenario where my daughter, 5.7, defied my
expectations with her ability to choose to defer her wants to meet her 3 yr
old brother's and mine. My husband had just come home from work and I was
trying to get out to go jogging. I'd already deferred the jog from the
morning before when my son, who is usually touchy but okay with me going,
had really dug in his heels and wailed and expressed how much he needed me
to not go. He'd agreed that this evening when Daddy got home would work
better so I'd agreed to wait a day. I'd reminded him about it, and he
seemed fine. Then Dad got home with a video from the library (where he
works) for each kid. My daughter put hers on to watch. A few minutes later
my son came in to where I was putting on my jogging things and said "Bill
Nye is too long, Mama". I said "Oh, you're waiting to watch your video and
you feel like Aline's Bill Nye video is too long for you to wait?" He said
"Yes". I said "Well Aline's video has two stories. How about if she
watches one story, you watch your video, then she watches the other story?"
This has worked in the past and he trotted off seemingly happy enough. A
few minutes later I heard him bawling to my confused husband in front of the
TV set. I went in and asked him what was going on. He kept crying. I said
"Are you just wanting to watch your video first?" He cried "Yes!" I
expressed his desire to my daughter who said "Well I want to watch mine
first". So I offered what we do a lot - a "fair" way of deciding where I
put the videos under a towel or behind my back and a kid picks which hand or
towel and that one is first. That usually works, but today Nicky was having
a tough time and just wasn't going for it. He wanted to know which hand his
video was in. He just wanted it NOW. I was getting frustrated - would I
ever get out on this run? What about my needs? I could choose to just walk
out, and leave them to Dad who is not as patient as I, but I know the trauma
that would feel like to my child. So I said to my daughter, "Aline, I know
what I'm about to ask you is not the fair way. But Nicky is super cranky,
he really wants his video first today and is having a tough time. I'd
really like to get out on my run now which I've been waiting to go on. I'd
really appreciate it if you could reconsider and let him have his video
first. What do you say?" And she shocked me and said "Well, okay, Mom."
I'm so glad I didn't blow my top.

Joan