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<<They ended up putting them away
> completely or playing with one horse at a time so they wouldn't have
> to deal
> with the onslaught of children asking to play with their horses. >>>
***************************************************************
Angela,

This was a tuff position to be in with the horses.
My daughter Cassidy (4) did approach the 3 girls while playing in the floor
Sat night. She watched quietly for a few then asked to play. I watched as one
of the girls kept her hand on the horse closest to Cassidy. After a couple
minutes the girls mentioned something about the elevator which my 4 yr. old picked
up on and then excitedly asked if she could go too. I felt so upset that she
didn't understand that the girls wanted to play alone. I thought what do I
tell her? How can I say this?

My only other one on one experience with her not being able to play with two
girls was one time at the playground about a month ago. There were two girls
about a year or so older than she. They said to her your fat you cant play,
these are my monkey bars you cant use them, im prettier than you and I have more
friends than you do.
My daughter doesn't understand when others dont want to play or they comment
like the girls at the playground did.

At the conference I told her that they wanted to play alone. She persisted
about taking the elevator so she could play with them. I explained the best I
could without harming her spirit. In the end she knows that she doesn't like to
share with her brother all the time so she understood. We later took a trip to
the top floor and back down again so was just fine with that.

As to the horses they are expensive. I would guess that a lot of the kids
dont know the difference between the cheap ones and the real ones. But even if
there were cheaper ones to offer I wonder if that would have still been a
concern. The girls I saw defiantly were older than my daughter so I dont know if it
was a bond she would have been able to join in cheap horse or not. I guess it
could be similar to a group playing video games or Yugio(sp) cards with an
approaching toddler.

I guess in the end from my perspective im glad that she isn't afraid to ask
to play or assume that she can. I think lots of kids have that free spirit
taken away and wont even approach other kids out of fear of rejection. On the
other side that leaves kids like the horse playing girls open to having to say
we'd like to play alone.
In the end I do hope the girls were able to have fun and continue their play.

Laura~Maine who is trying to stay out of the teaching a 3yr old calculus
conversation on the local list (grumble, grumble, roar!)
P.S it was great to finally meet you Saturday.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

christy austin

> This was a tuff position to be in with the horses.
> My daughter Cassidy (4) did approach the 3 girls
> while playing in the floor
> Sat night. She watched quietly for a few then asked
> to play. I watched as one
> of the girls kept her hand on the horse closest to
> Cassidy. After a couple
> minutes the girls mentioned something about the
> elevator which my 4 yr. old picked
> up on and then excitedly asked if she could go too.
> I felt so upset that she
> didn't understand that the girls wanted to play
> alone. I thought what do I
> tell her? How can I say this?
>
Ok, I do alot of lurking and reading and have
learned alot from doing that. But I have to ask,
where does compassion come into play here? I am
probably going to really catch it from some of you,
but I see so much selfishness in some of this. My son
is 10 and we have always encouraged him to share. I
won't say that we forced him but it was always
something that he knew we expected. I have seen him
develop such compassion for other kids, especially
younger ones. Maybe it is because I have always come
at it from the other kids perspective. Asked him to
put himself in their place. We don't have alot of
money, never have. That has been an amazing blessing
because he doesn't put too much value on "things". He
puts his value on people and relationships. He went
to the skate park Monday and he joyfully shared the
amazing, mongoose bike that one of the teens at our
church had built for himself and gave to Joshua. I
love to see how giving he is and the joy he gets from
sharing. He does have some things he collects that he
keeps up and doesn't play with himself because he
wants them to stay nice. So I do understand that part.


I kept a little boy this summer who is not a sharer.
And I know his mom has tried to teach him this. He
came expecting to share all of Joshua's things but
would bring things that Joshua "couldn't" play with.
It gave me a chance to discuss with Joshua how this
made him feel. We are trying to teach him the value
of having a servants heart and in giving other people
joy. And yes, this does go along with my chrisian
beliefs. But christian or not is that not a desirable
trait to teach a child? We take joy is sharing and
giving to others. He wouldn't have blinked twice at
sharing with a 4 yr. old (even a girl) and probably
would have asked her before she could ask. He would
have asked because he didn't want to cause her pain.

Am I wrong because I want him to be a compassionate
person? I don't see that as breaking his spirit by
encouraging him to share. I believe that he is partly
the person he is because of the stand we have taken.
Am I misunderstanding the motive behind the not
sharing thing? Sorry if I anger some of you. I am
just really trying to understand here. And I don't
think hurting people is ever a good thing. Christy
>



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Game-Enthusiast

Laura,
I am sorry that your dd felt left out. :0(

I have some jumbled ideas about all this floating in my head. I'll try to
make sense.

I talk regularly with my girls (when the topic comes up, one way or another)
about seeing things from other people's perspective. It has been helpful
for them to try to see things this way. It *has* helped them to become more
compassionate.

They are so incredibly uncomfortable around new people that being in a group
setting is very hard for them. (And I coerced them into coming to a
conference with over 500 ppl.) I try to see it from their perspective too.
I was so relieved that they had at least made one friend at the conference
and that they seemed to have formed a connection. They seem to really need
a connection to other children to really feel relaxed and enjoy them. (Guess
I do too.) When they feel this connection, they are very generous and
trusting. Dd2 bought her new friend a candy bar with her own money while we
were at the conference. She can be so sweet. The candy bar cost half of
her weekly allowance.

When your dd approached the girls, it was the last day of the conference,
after having their things taken a few times without being asked and after
spending two days feeling overwhelmed by having so many children approach
them repeatedly to play with them or to ask to play with their things. By
that point, they just wanted to be left alone. This doesn't mean that not
considering another child's feelings is ok, but might help to explain why
they didn't show more compassion at that point. They are still young too
(almost 8 and 9.5) and still learning how to politely show people where
their boundaries are. I do encourage my kids to let people know where their
boundaries are. If they are uncomfortable in a situation, it's important to
be able to say so. (I'm thinking long term, here...being able to say no,
they don't want to play with another child (gently) might lead up to being
able to say no to a strange adult who tries to lure them into a car.)

I do encourage my children to share, but I don't force it. (Did when they
were toddlers though and it didn't seem very respectful of them and it
didn't make them want to share.) I am not sure what that would do for them,
other than create resentment at this point. (And no we don't have a lot of
money (which is part of why the horses are so valuable to the kids) or focus
more on things than people). I have to work with my children's
personalities though in trying to impart a sharing attitude and from just my
own two children, I already know that generosity with things and the value
of things is different from child to child. One of my girls just listed
some toys she doesn't want anymore on ebay. (so she can save for another
Breyer horse.) The other one wouldn't ever part with anything that was
given to her, ever. She knows who gave it to her and when, all the way back
to when she was two. Her things have a value to them that even I can't see.
I don't understand it, but I respect her choice to keep her things.

We've tried group things over and over again. My kids just don't enjoy
group things. They never relax and be themselves. We were in a play group
weekly for 6 months (when the kids were 4 and 6) with 10 children and they
still couldn't relax and enjoy themselves. We went to Sunday school from
the time they were 1 and 3 till they were probably 5 and 7 and they still
never felt at home there. They are insulted when people cut in line. They
are insulted when people push and shove. They are insulted when people
(adults or kids) push them to interact when they aren't ready.

When someone cuts in line in front of them or plows by them knocking them
out of the way, they always ask me why. Why didn't they see me? Why didn't
they just ask me to move? Why didn't they get in line behind me? I try to
explain it, (maybe they were so excited about X that they looked right
through you) but I am often at a loss to explain other children's behaviors.


I think it's harder for extroverted people to understand introverted people
than it is for introverted people to understand extroverted people. We can
understand why it hurts for someone to feel left out. But it seems like
it's hard for some people to understand why some people prefer to play one
on one.

Just some thoughts.

Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

** Am I wrong because I want him to be a compassionate
person? **

This is a tough question.

I think some people can take the idea of being a "servant" and getting
satisfaction from serving others too far. There are certainly people
who take on so much volunteer work that they don't have enough time to
exercise and rest enough to protect their own health. Trusting other
people not to impose or trusting god to give one strength doesn't always
work. How is one going to take care of oneself without at least some
"selfishness" or sense of self?

Can you explain why taking care of someone else is better than taking
care of oneself?

**I don't see that as breaking his spirit by encouraging him to share. **

Yes, encouraging makes sense. But forced sharing ISN'T sharing. In
fact a kid who is forced to share doesn't even really *own* his own
toys, IMO.

Kids vary in when they are ready to share and how quickly they feel
empathy for strangers. This is probably mostly not caused by the
parenting techniques used, but is just variation in personality. (My
opinion again.)

Betsy

J. Stauffer

<<<<<We can
> understand why it hurts for someone to feel left out. But it seems like
> it's hard for some people to understand why some people prefer to play one
> on one.>>>>>>>

I think this is very important.

I used to say "everyone gets to play" to my kids no matter what. I didn't
want someone to be left out, feel sad. Ended up just making the kids that
wanted to play one-on-one resentful.

So now we talk about respecting others. If 2 kids want to play alone, I
talk with the other about that, about how we can't MAKE people change just
because we want them to, about how would they like it if I MADE them do
something they didn't want to do.

I also talk to the kids playing alone about how the other person feels, if
there is something the other person is doing that is problematic (in which
case, I talk to that person).

Problem is that when you add another person it changes the dynamic of the
play....sometimes that is enjoyable for all parties and sometimes it isn't,
sometimes it has to do with the particular person wanting to join in and
sometimes it is just that "what we are doing is so fun that we don't want it
to change".

It is a definite balancing act.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Game-Enthusiast" <game-enthusiast@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 11:56 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] re: sharing again


> Laura,
> I am sorry that your dd felt left out. :0(
>
> I have some jumbled ideas about all this floating in my head. I'll try to
> make sense.
>
> I talk regularly with my girls (when the topic comes up, one way or
another)
> about seeing things from other people's perspective. It has been helpful
> for them to try to see things this way. It *has* helped them to become
more
> compassionate.
>
> They are so incredibly uncomfortable around new people that being in a
group
> setting is very hard for them. (And I coerced them into coming to a
> conference with over 500 ppl.) I try to see it from their perspective
too.
> I was so relieved that they had at least made one friend at the conference
> and that they seemed to have formed a connection. They seem to really
need
> a connection to other children to really feel relaxed and enjoy them.
(Guess
> I do too.) When they feel this connection, they are very generous and
> trusting. Dd2 bought her new friend a candy bar with her own money while
we
> were at the conference. She can be so sweet. The candy bar cost half of
> her weekly allowance.
>
> When your dd approached the girls, it was the last day of the conference,
> after having their things taken a few times without being asked and after
> spending two days feeling overwhelmed by having so many children approach
> them repeatedly to play with them or to ask to play with their things. By
> that point, they just wanted to be left alone. This doesn't mean that not
> considering another child's feelings is ok, but might help to explain why
> they didn't show more compassion at that point. They are still young too
> (almost 8 and 9.5) and still learning how to politely show people where
> their boundaries are. I do encourage my kids to let people know where
their
> boundaries are. If they are uncomfortable in a situation, it's important
to
> be able to say so. (I'm thinking long term, here...being able to say no,
> they don't want to play with another child (gently) might lead up to being
> able to say no to a strange adult who tries to lure them into a car.)
>
> I do encourage my children to share, but I don't force it. (Did when they
> were toddlers though and it didn't seem very respectful of them and it
> didn't make them want to share.) I am not sure what that would do for
them,
> other than create resentment at this point. (And no we don't have a lot
of
> money (which is part of why the horses are so valuable to the kids) or
focus
> more on things than people). I have to work with my children's
> personalities though in trying to impart a sharing attitude and from just
my
> own two children, I already know that generosity with things and the value
> of things is different from child to child. One of my girls just listed
> some toys she doesn't want anymore on ebay. (so she can save for another
> Breyer horse.) The other one wouldn't ever part with anything that was
> given to her, ever. She knows who gave it to her and when, all the way
back
> to when she was two. Her things have a value to them that even I can't
see.
> I don't understand it, but I respect her choice to keep her things.
>
> We've tried group things over and over again. My kids just don't enjoy
> group things. They never relax and be themselves. We were in a play
group
> weekly for 6 months (when the kids were 4 and 6) with 10 children and they
> still couldn't relax and enjoy themselves. We went to Sunday school from
> the time they were 1 and 3 till they were probably 5 and 7 and they still
> never felt at home there. They are insulted when people cut in line. They
> are insulted when people push and shove. They are insulted when people
> (adults or kids) push them to interact when they aren't ready.
>
> When someone cuts in line in front of them or plows by them knocking them
> out of the way, they always ask me why. Why didn't they see me? Why
didn't
> they just ask me to move? Why didn't they get in line behind me? I try
to
> explain it, (maybe they were so excited about X that they looked right
> through you) but I am often at a loss to explain other children's
behaviors.
>
>
> I think it's harder for extroverted people to understand introverted
people
> than it is for introverted people to understand extroverted people. We
can
> understand why it hurts for someone to feel left out. But it seems like
> it's hard for some people to understand why some people prefer to play one
> on one.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Angela
> <mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

christy austin

--- Elizabeth Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:

> > I think some people can take the idea of being a
> "servant" and getting
> satisfaction from serving others too far. There are
> certainly people
> who take on so much volunteer work that they don't
> have enough time to
> exercise and rest enough to protect their own
> health. Trusting other
> people not to impose or trusting god to give one
> strength doesn't always
> work. How is one going to take care of oneself
> without at least some
> "selfishness" or sense of self?
>
> Can you explain why taking care of someone else is
> better than taking
> care of oneself?
>
> I don't think anyone I know expects us to take care
of others to the exclusion of ourselves or our
families. In fact the people I go to church with
would probably be very quick to caution against that.
Otherwise you are not doing anyone any good. There
are always people who will take advantage and you do
have to have enough wisdom to discern. But I know so
many people that care for others as a way of life.
And I don't see anything but good come of it. And
don't get me wrong, sometimes you just do what you
know needs to be done just because it needs to be
done. But where would our church be if no one did but
what they felt like doing. The things I see when
there is a death, or an illness, or a job lost, any
number of tragedies, the way people love each other
and step up to help out, those are the things I want
my family and my son to learn. We have had several
deaths in our church in the past year and I have
gotten to see this first hand. One of which was my
dad. And I wouldn't have made it without my church
family caring for us. His illness was long and very
painful and they cared for us while we cared for him.
Did they all want to cook and clean for us everyday?
I doubt it. But they did and that was what made it
all the more special. Does that help? Christy


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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/04 12:32:59 PM, romance9398@... writes:

<< And
don't get me wrong, sometimes you just do what you
know needs to be done just because it needs to be
done. >>

You don't have to if you don't want to.

<<But where would our church be if no one did but
what they felt like doing. >>

People choose to help other people because it makes them feel better to do
so, or makes them feel they have done their duty to God, or something.

If you really look at those things, people are making choices.

When a person "has to" go to work, he is choosing to go to work. There are
alternatives, but he liked the alternatives less than he disliked work.

Here's some of a previous discussion on this, and some related links:

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto

Compassion is learned better from example and from philosophical
underpinnings than from any requirements or "rules."

Sandra

diana

And I don't think hurting people is ever a good thing. Christy

****************

This sentence really stands out to me as it seems to put the
needs/desires of strangers over the needs/wishes of your own child.
It does, really and truly hurts a child who's need to control their
belongings is overlooked and belittled. I would never, ever shame
or guilt my friends into sharing with someone we just met in a
restaurant (having expectations means being disappointed when
they're not met, your child knows this)... why oh why would I expect
a child at a conference, possibly far from home, in an environment
where many adults feel overwhelmed, to share with complete
strangers?? Please HONOR your child, LISTEN to their needs, be
INTERESTED in them... stop worrying about what others think, your
first responsibility is to your own children.

Please don't feel you've made anyone upset by your child's
behavior. Of all the places on the planet for you to find
understanding for your child's needs, it is the Live and Learn
Conference.

~diana