[email protected]

-=-http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/lombardART.html-=-

Seems it has to do with angels (down near the end) and afterimages and
reincarnation and the change of teeth (? baby teeth coming out?) and that some
colors develop your soul and some destroy it, or something. Yikes.

I don't think people should do this even at home.

Here is some pro-literature, for balance (or at least a summary of it without
details):

"Art

"The class teacher gives regular instruction in drawing and water color
painting through the grades. In the early grades painting is non-representative;
children are immersed in the experience of the different colors and learn the
quality of each. Beginning in fourth grade, painting lessons are often related
to the subject being taught in the main lesson. Clay modelling, veil painting,
drawing with charcoal and pastels and other art forms are also a part of art
lessons through the middle grades.

"Form Drawing

"Form drawing is taught in grades one through five as part of the main lesson
or in a period of its own. Forms of various kinds are drawn, beginning with
straight and curved lines in first grade. This is the foundation for the child
learning to print and write. By third grade the forms become quite complicated
and help to develop the child's spatial orientation and sense of balance and
proportion. In fifth grade, with this experience behind them, the children
practice free hand geometry. "

http://www.jlc.net/~faiman/waldorf/handbook_curriculum.html#art
Sandra

Kristina Kahney

SandraDodd@...

http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/articles/lombardART.html-=-

Seems it has to do with angels (down near the end) and afterimages and
reincarnation and the change of teeth (? baby teeth coming out?) and that some
colors develop your soul and some destroy it, or something. Yikes.

I don't think people should do this even at home.
***************************************************

With all due respect, Sandra, some people just do believe in this philosophy. I don't understand why we feel the need to judge other people's beliefs and practices just because we don't agree with them?

I believe in reincarnation and much of Steiner's writing on the spiritual realm. I don't pretend to understand or know the majority of his philosophy, but what I've read on this particular subject (reincarnation, Atlantis, ancient Lemuria, the way the spiritual realm works with us, angels, children choosing their parents before coming into this life) corresponds to my personal beliefs in this area anyway. Much of his writings in this area, though, are similar to the growing Metaphysical movement now, which is more what I identify myself with, not Steiner or Anthroposophy.

So, just wanted to point out, though I don't agree with much of Waldorf either, I don't think it's necessarily productive to bash it. Just my opinion....
Kristina


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/9/04 11:53:19 AM, kkahney@... writes:

<< With all due respect, Sandra, some people just do believe in this
philosophy. >>

[email protected]

<< With all due respect, Sandra, some people just do believe in this
philosophy. >>

That's fine, but it won't get them closer to unschooling.

I don't mind belief in ideas, but if the belief is that using the wrong color
too early ruins development or the incoming soul or conjures evil or whatever
all it might be, that's not good for the child's potential to make some
decisions on his own.

If by "some people just do believe in this philosophy" you mean some people
just don't think it's important for children to make decisions on their own,
you are absolutely and profoundly right. In the cul de sac in which I live the
families other than ours who believe in letting children have some freedom
are Zero. Controlled, controlled, shaming.

-=- I don't understand why we feel the need to judge other people's beliefs
and practices just because we don't agree with them? -=-

By "we" do you mean me?
Seems so.

The way a person decides what she believes is to look at everything that
comes along and see whether it helps, hurts, reinforces, detracts, supports...
and just as Steiner kept changing his mind and affiliations through his lifetime
(so a speech given one year might contradict what he said or wrote another
year), probably just about ever unschooler started off believing something else,
invested in something else, proud or ashamed of things that unschooled
children might never have to contend with (grades, reading group, attendance record,
honor society, whatever).

Helping kids learn how to research a question, to examine what they find open
mindedly, compare it against what they already know, and how to find more
information when they need more is all part of helping them learn to live in the
world. There are adults who can't do that very well, but it's easy to do
with google.com and a group of hundreds of interested, curious unschooling
parents.

-=-I believe in reincarnation and much of Steiner's writing on the spiritual
realm.-=-

There is a lot of evidence for reincarnation. I'd be happy if it turns out
to be true. I used to believe and now I just don't care. My life isn't lived
out of fear of the outcome one way or another. I'm helpful because helpful
is good. I'm honest because honesty is good.

-=-So, just wanted to point out, though I don't agree with much of Waldorf
either, I don't think it's necessarily productive to bash it. -=-

I didn't name any posts "bashing" and I don't consider quotes and evidence to
be "bashing." Someone asked and several people shared information.

Instead of sharing information about Waldorf or Steiner, you chose to defend
your personal self and criticize (me? the list?).

Ideas, please. Let's talk about the ideas.
And talk about the ideas in the light of unschooling.

Sandra

Kristina Kahney

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>If by "some people just do believe in this philosophy" you mean >some people
>just don't think it's important for children to make decisions >on their own,
>you are absolutely and profoundly right.

Well, yes, this is basically what I'm saying. And, people not only just "believe in it"...but are adamant about the *correctness* of what they're doing. Equally as much as you are sure of the truth of what you are doing. There are so many people in our society believing so very many different things, I just don't see choices and beliefs as "right" and "wrong". Just right for me (or my family).

But, it's not always easy, obviously. When I see a mom screaming at her 2 yo in the mall, and then hitting him repeatedly on the bottom for not staying right with her and remaining silent so she can chat with her friend, it's very hard not to be judgmental. But, in my heart I know that for whatever reason, that mom is where she is for a purpose. People can change, and I believe that people create their own reality and lives around them by the thoughts and beliefs that they choose. She just hasn't realized her own power to choose yet, so has no idea how to let go so that her child can be empowered too.
*************************************************************

>>I don't understand why we feel the need to judge other >>people's beliefs
>>and practices just because we don't agree with them? -=-

>By "we" do you mean me?
>Seems so.

Well, yes, I guess I was referring to some of your comments as parts of Waldorf being "weird" or Steiner being "racist" or "pulling ideas out of his ass". But, please understand I am thinking in a broader view though, to include myself. I try very hard in my life to not judge things as better or worse, good or bad. Only good for me, better *for me* in this moment. Does this make more sense?

Remaining objective and neutral about other people's decisions, beliefs and actions seems crucial to unschooling. After re-reading my post here, I see that I need work harder and take my desire to be truly non-judgmental to include my children! Duh! Seems obvious, but I guess for me it's easier to refrain from judging outsiders, whose decisions don't really affect you in any way, than making judgments on my own kid's choices.

I realize now that it's letting go of that old belief (of mine) that our children and their behaviors are a reflection of our parenting, and therefore my worth and self esteem come into question..."am I a *good* mom if my kid wears no shoes to the store?" "am I a *good* mom if.....(fill in the blank). This is a belief that I learned growing up, and it no longer serves me or my current goals. Therefore, I am in the process of writing out new affirmations/beliefs that will support my current vision of how I choose to be with my children. This process I know will help. Thanks to you all, greatly, for allowing me to process through all of this here. Writing things out, and being pushed with tough questions is so very valuable for me. I'll get there ;)
Kristina



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/2004 6:15:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kkahney@... writes:

Well, yes, I guess I was referring to some of your comments as parts of
Waldorf being "weird" or Steiner being "racist" or "pulling ideas out of his
ass". But, please understand I am thinking in a broader view though, to include
myself. I try very hard in my life to not judge things as better or worse,
good or bad. Only good for me, better *for me* in this moment. Does this make
more sense?<<<<

Nope. Not really.

Waldorf (from an unschooling point of view----which IS why we're here) IS
weird. And wrong. Steiner surely looks racists to ME! As for "pulling it out of
his ass"----well, it doesn't look as if he used any FACTS! He just made it
up!

As an unschooler, it's really important to judge things as right or wrong,
better or worse, and good or bad. If you don't, then how will you know? Not
only that----but how will you make sound decisions?

Judging has taken on a bad connotation in this country's culture. It's
become politically incorrect to judge. But using your intellect to decide what's
right and wrong is practically a life survival skill! <g> Using objectivity to
weigh the pros and cons is a very important ability.

I wonder about those folks that can't or won't do it. Either it's been
beaten/sucked out of them (through school and others telling then NOT to---to
believe what they are told), or it's been shamed out of them with "it's not
"right" to judge others (political correctness at it's worst), or they're just
stupid.

I'm guessing you've come to unschooling by examining other educational
options. Weeded through them, looked at the pros and cons, objectively made some
JUDGMENT on what the best way to learn is.

What the world needs is MORE judgment, not less.

~Kelly







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Kristina Kahney <kkahney@y...> wrote:
>There are so many people in our society believing so very many different things, I just
don't see choices and beliefs as "right" and "wrong". Just right for me (or my family).

--Kristina, I admire the desire not to judge, but I disagree that choices and beliefs aren't
"right" or "wrong." There are lots of choices I believe are wrong by themselves, for
everyone. There are also lots of choices that can be right and not all of them match up
with each other.

The problem is that there are lots gradients and where one person draws the line, another
is erasing it.

What I try to do more and more is to really listen/hear the perspective of the "other" from
his or her point of view first (For instance, read Steiner in his own words, if you want to
know what he believes/advocates. Read his context. Read his enthusiastic followers.)
before reading the detractors.

Try to put whatever belief you are testing on trial by allowing the fans to speak first.

Then I like to hear what went wrong and why for those who aren't fans, for those who felt
betrayed, who discarded the position.

After that, I can make my decision for myself and I can also make a sound judgment about
the practice, even for others.

I will openly disagree with a belief or practice when I feel informed enough to make that
judgment. And I will acknowledge that my beliefs are subject to change over time if I gain
new information or find myself just flat out wrong.

I empathize completely with passionate beliefs. I don't feel the need to judge the passion,
commitment or sincerity of those who disagree with me. But I don't have any problem
disagreeing, and strenuously, as long as I do it graciously.

> But, it's not always easy, obviously. When I see a mom screaming at her 2 yo in the mall,
and then hitting him repeatedly on the bottom for not staying right with her and
remaining silent so she can chat with her friend, it's very hard not to be judgmental. But,
in my heart I know that for whatever reason, that mom is where she is for a purpose.

There may be no purpose at all.

She may be in pain, may not know better or she might just be a selfish person. We don't
know. I don't like to assume that bad things serve a purpose. Too much crap that happens
serves no purpose except to damage victims.

If we would wake up, we might be of help.

We need courage and compassion, not just compassion.

>People can change,

They only change when they are:

a) challenged to see differently
b) are shown that what they are doing is mistaken at best, wrong and damaging at worst
c) find that the results they're getting don't work


>. I try very hard in my life to not judge things as better or worse, good or bad. Only good
for me, better *for me* in this moment. Does this make more sense?

Is beating a child not good or bad? What about molesting a child? Is there ever a time
where those aren't bad?

Less extreme examples:

Leaving a baby crying in a crib for over an hour.

Feeding a child dinner and whatever goes uneaten is left for breakfast and then for lunch
until every last item is eaten off the plate.

Keeping a child in all summer to do the school work he didn't complete during the school
year.

These are all real examples from people in my life. And while there are gradients of
practice and belief that probably are debatable about the amount of negative or positive
impact, I don't think it helps me formulate my own viewpoint if I have to constantly qualify
other people's practice as neutral.

I strenuously disagree with the examples above and don't see that they serve any purpose
that brings health to families.

>
> Remaining objective and neutral about other people's decisions, beliefs and actions
seems crucial to unschooling.

I completely disagree. *Owning* my viewpoint and acknowledging the differences between
mine and other people's is crucial to unschooling. Forming informed opinions is crucial to
unschooling.

If I have friends whose kids are suffering at the hands of authoritarianism, I will not simply
say, "This is the right method for you. It will serve a purpose in your family." I will offer
another view, I will give advice or help or suggestions for what I think will make family life
better. I don't give unwanted/unsolicited advice, but I certainly wouldn't stay neutral.

And if I see what looks like abuse, I have to report it, as I have done.


Julie B

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:

>
> What the world needs is MORE judgment, not less.


Maybe we could say that the world needs more "discernment," not less so that we stay
away from the "judgment" word which oiften translates to "judgmental."

Julie B

Elizabeth Hill

** Well, yes, I guess I was referring to some of your comments as parts
of Waldorf being "weird" or Steiner being "racist" or "pulling ideas out
of his ass". But, please understand I am thinking in a broader view
though, to include myself. I try very hard in my life to not judge
things as better or worse, good or bad. Only good for me, better *for
me* in this moment. Does this make more sense?

Remaining objective and neutral about other people's decisions, beliefs
and actions seems crucial to unschooling.**

No. I don't see it that way. If my child said things that were racist,
or hit two-year olds at the mall (like the chatting mom in your example)
I would not remain neutral. If I posted about either of these problems
on this list, I don't expect that people here would advise me to be
neutral about these behaviors.

I would try to remain calm. I would try to be understanding. I would
probably even try not to be rigid and doctrinaire. I would even try to
look at the circumstances of the situation and see if that helped me
understand the behavior any better.

(I'd like to give a more illustrative example, but it's hard because I
started out with a hypothetical.)

I'm not even neutral on the issue of organic food. I know that it is
probably better for my health and for the health of ecosystems to have
less pesticide used. I'm not enthusiastic about "roundup ready" plants
that are bred to thrive with higher doses of pesticides. However, often
organic food is more expensive and difficult for me to fit into my
budget. It's also less widely available. The fact that I see pluses
and minuses within the issue, (even only having looked at it
superficially) doesn't make my opinion neutral, however.

I'm not sure if what you are advocating is like a zen detatchment from
worldly events and their outcomes?

**"am I a *good* mom if my kid wears no shoes to the store?"**

I think I understand what you mean with this part of your post. There
have been ages when I sometimes found my kid's behavior while shopping
embarrassing (e.g. runnning). But mostly I tried to keep him from
having a screaming fit at the store out of sympathy for HIS distress,
not to prevent other people from judging him and me. However, I have
sometimes said, please comb your hair before we go to your cousins or
Aunt C---- might think I'm a bad mom. <g>

Betsy

PS I suppose where I do try to be neutral (as an unschooler) is about
what my child likes to do and learn, IF it is not harmful to others or
to himself.

Aimee

<<As an unschooler, it's really important to judge
things as right or wrong,
better or worse, and good or bad. If you don't, then
how will you know? Not
only that----but how will you make sound decisions?>>

As an unschooler, I think it's important to learn
how to judge between useful and not useful, what will
add joy and value to life, and what will not.

What's most useful (good or bad) for my family, for
my child, for my household, at this moment, that
always matters.

I just think that it's important to recognize that
right and wrong, bad and good, are *temporary*
decisions about current value.

Yes, those judgments and decisions are useful, but
they are also subjective. They are practically
guaranteed to change with circumstance.


~Aimee

Aimee

<<Maybe we could say that the world needs more
"discernment," not less so
that we stay
away from the "judgment" word which oiften translates
to "judgmental."

Julie B>>

LOL I was thinking the same thing!!

Judgemental to me is more like absolutes, and
discernment, to me, means more like value judgments,
subject to change, given the information you have.


Dictionary doesn't really agree with me, tho!

~Aimee

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/04 4:15:10 AM, kkahney@... writes:

<< But, in my heart I know that for whatever reason, that mom is where she is
for a purpose. People can change, and I believe that people create their own
reality and lives around them by the thoughts and beliefs that they choose. >>

And if you believe (as I think you stated earlier; sorry if I'm mixing one
poster up with another) that children choose their lives and circumstances, then
you must to some extent believe that that little girl chose a mother who
would spank her in public (or anywhere).

When I told my kids about Adam and Eve, I said lots of people believe this
because it's in the Bible, and not just Christians believe it but Moslems and
Jews, because that book is considered history to all of them.

When I told them about evolution, I mentioned archeology and geology and
Darwin, that fiding bones of extinct species that are a little different makes
people think that over many years animals change.

When a person tells a child "You chose to be with me," how does she explain
the knowledge or theory of that? I've heard the theory before, but what it's
really based on in history or science or experience I haven't heard.

Do you just say "But, in my heart I know"?

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/04 7:35:42 AM, julie@... writes:

<< > What the world needs is MORE judgment, not less.



Maybe we could say that the world needs more "discernment," not less so that
we stay

away from the "judgment" word which oiften translates to "judgmental."

>>

Should we abandon every word that some people have forgotten how to use?

The official policy at corporate level of the Society for Creative
Anachronism is to say "Middle Ages" instead of "medieval," because too many people think
"medieval" is a form of "evil."

Huh.

Should paleontologists change "primieval" so fundamentalists aren't confused?

But wait. Fundamentalists DO think it's evil.

And the areas of the U.S. (because it was only U.S., not any other country)
where "medieval" was raising questions and losing them sites and the positive
regard of the community were the south and southeast.

If a person is ignorant of the word "medieval," the majority who do know what
it means and how to use it should educate them, not roll over and let
ignorance take a word out of their vocabulary.

"Judgmental" has a bad connotation. It has a bad DEnotation (meaning), I
suppose, as it's the too-harsh judgment.

But do we throw the "good judgment," "best judgment" and "sober judgment"
babies out with the bathwater?

No. Remind people they are SUPPOSED to use their own judgment.

Kids all over the country are told they can use the car or stay home alone
when the parents have seen they can use good judgment, but it too often turns
out what the parents mean is "when you can do exactly what we say for long
periods of time without trying to use your own judgment."

No wonder too many people haven't thought about what it means.

Sandra

kayb85

> When a person tells a child "You chose to be with me," how does she
explain
> the knowledge or theory of that? I've heard the theory before, but
what it's
> really based on in history or science or experience I haven't heard.
>
> Do you just say "But, in my heart I know"?
>
> Sandra

I wondered about this too. Someone recommended a book to me called
Illusions http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-
7718769-6998305

It's a fiction book, similar to Ishmael in that there's a main
character who teaches his philosophy during the fictional story. He
talks about people choosing their own lives, and when asked about
people who have horrifying lives, his response is (paraphrasing)that
souls might pick a horrifying human life for much the same reason a
person might choose to go see a horror movie. The movie's not really
real, and it's kind of an enjoyable experience to be scared when it's
not really real. So, according to his theory, a soul might choose to
live through a horrifying life just for the experience, to learn
something new, and then when he dies and goes back to spirit form, he
will choose a different life where he can learn and experience yet
another new thing. The soul knows the horrifying human life is not
real, even though during the "movie" of life it might be so caught up
in the "story" that it forgets that it's not real. When the soul
dies, he can look back on his "life-movie" and say, " Wow, that was
an interesting horror movie, not let's pick a different kind of life
to experience."

Wild book. I'm not sure I even recommend the book unless you enjoy
something that's WAY out there. lol

I guess people who believe that would say that there are lots of
different theories about our existence, all equally valid, and that
people just have to choose which one seems the best to them. They
might also say that just because a theory was so popular that it
became written down in a holy book like a Bible would simply mean it
was a more popular theory, not necessarily a more valid theory.

Sheila

kayb85

" Wow, that was
> an interesting horror movie, not let's pick a different kind of
life
> to experience."

I meant to say NOW, not NOT. Oops! That one letter typo made a big
difference in the meaning of that sentence. :)
Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/2004 12:54:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

that children choose their lives and circumstances, then
you must to some extent believe that that little girl chose a mother who
would spank her in public (or anywhere).<<<<

But worse, are the children who supposedly choose Susan Smith for a
mother----or that mom who drowned her babes in TX.

I'd hate to think that an innocent child would choose to be
sexually/emotionally/physically abused for years and years by his parents. How would that
child feel if told the same thing, that he picked his parents? Guilty? For his
own living hell?

Fine for the child with a loving mom and dad, but what about the others?

~Kelly







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/04 9:25:05 AM, aimeel73@... writes:

<< I just think that it's important to recognize that
right and wrong, bad and good, are *temporary*
decisions about current value. >>

There are some absolutes in anyone's world, I think.

When I think of thingas as better and worse instead of right and wrong, it
makes the world more flexible, and allows me to change more easily when I need
to.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/04 10:06:46 AM, aimeel73@... writes:

<< and discernment, to me, means more like value judgments, >>

Like value what?

<g>

Sandra

Kristina Kahney

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>And if you believe (as I think you stated earlier; sorry if I'm >mixing one
>poster up with another) that children choose their lives and >circumstances, then
>you must to some extent believe that that little girl chose a >mother who
>would spank her in public (or anywhere).

yes, I do believe this. I believe children choose their parents before they come into this life. They choose a set of circumstances (sometimes perceived as 'bad' by us in the physical realm)for the purpose of their own soul's evolution. This is not Waldorf (that I know of) but my own spiritual beliefs.

>When a person tells a child "You chose to be with me,"

Personally, I would never tell my children "you chose to be with me", because I believe they chose on a spiritual realm, one that they probably do not remember (much of)now that they are here on earth. I do not think this concept would make sense to a young child. I will certainly share my beliefs with them as they get older and we begin discussing more issues as this one. We do go to a spiritual center where they are surrounded by metaphysical beliefs, too, so I suspect that at a point they will begin asking questions themselves.

>how does she explain
>the knowledge or theory of that? I've heard the theory before, >but what it's
>really based on in history or science or experience I haven't >heard.
>Do you just say "But, in my heart I know"?

We attend a spiritual center that is based on the teachings of Ernest Holmes. You can google search him and read about his teachings if you wish. But, yes, I do know in my heart what feels right TO ME. I live as intuitively as I can, always consulting my gut and my heart to guide me to truth in my own life. Here are some other links to sites I visit frequently that may better explain what you are looking for:

http://www.religiousscience.org/xindex02.html
www.childrenofthenewearth.com
www.lightworker.com

Since this isn't really about unschooling, but about spirituality, I'll just leave it at that. I'm sure there are hundreds of different spiritual beliefs on this list.
Kristina







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristina Kahney

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>As an unschooler, it's really important to judge things as >right or wrong,
>better or worse, and good or bad. If you don't, then how will >you know? Not
>only that----but how will you make sound decisions?

Yes, I agree, I do form opinions as to what is "better" or
"worse" for ME or for my family. I do not look at my neighbors, for example, and say "well, I think this choice of thiers is bad, this is bad, and this is good." Obviously, that choice is not "bad" for them or they wouldn't have chosen it. They believe it is right for them, just like I believe what is right for me.

I made choices in the past that are very different from choices I would make today. I don't think that made my previous choices "bad", I made the best choice I could for myself in the moment at that time. Now I make the best choice I can (after discerning what is best for me/us right now)for this moment.
Kristina



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kristina Kahney

Julie Bogart <julie@...> wrote:

>I don't like to assume that bad things serve a purpose. Too >much crap that happens serves no purpose except to damage >victims.

Julie,
This is simply a disagreement of spiritual beliefs. I happen to believe that all situations, whether they are perceived as "good" or "bad", serve a purpose. You don't agree with this, that's okay, but I just believe in a different philophy here.
Kristina



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie

** Remaining objective and neutral about other people's decisions, beliefs
and actions seems crucial to unschooling.**

I actually think it's the reverse. I see people out in the street with their
kids and it's a reminder to me of how I don't want to be with mine. I have
people in my life who I think are messing up badly with their kids. If I
remained neutral in my feelings how could I feel so passionately about what
I am doing and how we are choosing to live?

I don't go out and try to convert everyone I meet to unschool and to parent
differently, handing out antispanking tracts <g> but if put in a situation
where I could share things that have helped me to have a better relationship
with my kids then I would. I would be understanding and compassionate but
truthful. I think it's possible to be both most of the time.

I think on an unschooling list full of people who are passionate about
unschooling, ideas and beliefs will be pulled apart (mental picture of
lionesses ripping apart an antelope spring to mind <bg>) with enthusiasm and
vigour. To me, that's the way to unschooling, passion and critical thinking.
Just imagine how quiet and boring this list would be if we all remained
neutral and objective. Creepy!!!

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/04 7:16:17 PM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< Just imagine how quiet and boring this list would be if we all remained

neutral and objective. Creepy!!!

>>

WHAT list?
There wouldn't be a list if we were just going to agree with each other all
the time.

We could just have a fake list or a support website.
Think of the TV show in the movie of Farenheit 451. "What do YOU think,
Linda?"

Someone could come and type in their question, and by searching for phrases
or clues (or just by random means) they could receive a response that assures
them of one of the things some people want to hear, like that they're doing
great, that no one knows their kids as well as they do, they're the experts on
their kids, whatever they do will be wonderful, their kids will love them no
matter what, there's no one right answer so do what you want, listen to your
heart, your kids will understand you did your best, you're not perfect and how
could you be...

Fortune cookies.
Horoscopes like used to come out of scales in front of grocery stores. You
get the next slip of paper in the hopper no matter which astrological sign you
put your money into.

Cooing and stroking. Soothing "don't think, don't worry" messages.

I would never visit it.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/04 9:29:52 PM, kkahney@... writes:

<< We attend a spiritual center that is based on the teachings of Ernest
Holmes. You can google search him and read about his teachings if you wish. >>

<<http://www.religiousscience.org/xindex02.html
www.childrenofthenewearth.com
www.lightworker.com>>


Thanks.
I'm familiar with the middle one, and will look at the other two.

-=-Obviously, that choice is not "bad" for them or they wouldn't have chosen
it. -=-

People don't choose to continue in alcoholism or to be chain smokers because
they think it's good for them or their kids. People who insult their children
horribly don't think it's the best thing. Lots of parents do what they do
just because they're lazy or not too bright, or they're wounded in their own
souls and don't know how to act.

Sandra

Kristina Kahney

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>People don't choose to continue in alcoholism or to be chain >smokers because they think it's good for them or their kids. >People who insult their children horribly don't think it's the >best thing. Lots of parents do what they do just because >they're lazy or not too bright, or they're wounded in their own >souls and don't know how to act.

Yes, I see what you're saying here, especially when you say they are "wounded and ...don't know how to act." I guess I still see that as people doing the best they *know how* in the moment.

I also hear what many of you are saying about life, this list, etc. being no fun if nobody challenged anyone else's opinions. I agree, and think that people can discuss, debate and share very passionately why they choose the things they do without saying others are *wrong* for choosing differently. And, this is pretty much what I see/feel on this list- people passionately sharing about their own choices but not condemning those who choose differently.

It seems to me that it comes down to respect, for others and their choices. It just seems to me that as unschooling parents strive to let their children live in true freedom (without placing judgments on their choices), this would also carry over to respecting those other adults around you and giving them the same respect, even when their choices aren't the ones that you yourself would make. Is this not accurate?
Kristina




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Aug 10, 2004, at 10:31 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> People don't choose to continue in alcoholism or to be chain smokers
> because
> they think it's good for them or their kids.

And people die filled with regrets for what they did and didn't do.

-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/11/04 12:53:56 AM, kkahney@... writes:

<< I agree, and think that people can discuss, debate and share very
passionately why they choose the things they do without saying others are *wrong* for
choosing differently. >>

What you think people can do and what they can do, or what you would like to
think people should do and what they choose to do might not be the same thing.
Will they be wrong if they don't discuss, debate and share the way you think
they can?

-=-It seems to me that it comes down to respect, for others and their
choices. It just seems to me that as unschooling parents strive to let their children
live in true freedom (without placing judgments on their choices), this would
also carry over to respecting those other adults around you and giving them
the same respect, even when their choices aren't the ones that you yourself
would make. Is this not accurate?-=-

With over 1500 people on the list, without ever taking a vote or calling for
a consensus, nobody can tell you whether that's accurate. Some people might
write and give a personal opinion, and that's about the best you can hope for.

You're saying things like "it seems this would... right?"

Act from your own convictions, and then keep the "take what you need and
leave the rest" slogan running in the background. We don't need to agree on much
at all for this list to work. It was hard enough for three listowners to
agree. Some measure of confusion is fine.

But two things I can offer my personal opinion on:

-=-as unschooling parents strive to let their children live in true freedom
(without placing judgments on their choices). . . -=-

I "place judgments" on my kids' choices. I don't always express them. If
all choices were equally valid and good, there would be nothing EVER for
unschooling parents to get excited and happy about. So of course, people get excited
when a little kid makes a cool decision ("cool" meaning something other
adults and our relatives would value highly or be impressed by). That doesn't mean
we punish or shame for a bad decision. But there is such a thing as a bad
decision, or a decision a child regrets, analyzes, and learns from.

-=-this would also carry over to respecting those other adults around you and
giving them the same respect, even when their choices aren't the ones that
you yourself would make.-=-

Well "the same" as the false premise?

I respect what I respect. I don't respect an adult just for being an adult,
nor a choice just for being a choice. Respect means zilch if it is
universal. It only has value if some things are respected and other things are not.
Gold would be worth no more than sand if we respected all elements equally.

So I have no interest and there in no benefit in agreeing with a proposal
that we respect all things equally. It's not only impossible, it's not
desireable.

But in the context of unschooling discussions, I have more respect for
children than for adults. And I have more respect for unschooling itself than for
people's excuses for not unschooling.

Sandra

TreeGoddess

On Aug 10, 2004, at 7:57 PM, Kristina Kahney wrote:

> SandraDodd@... wrote:
>> [And if you believe (as I think you stated earlier; sorry if I'm
>> >mixing one
>> poster up with another) that children choose their lives and
>> >circumstances, then
>> you must to some extent believe that that little girl chose a >mother
>> who
>> would spank her in public (or anywhere).]
>
> -=-yes, I do believe this. I believe children choose their parents
> before they come into this life. They choose a set of circumstances
> (sometimes perceived as 'bad' by us in the physical realm)for the
> purpose of their own soul's evolution. -=-

Kristina,

In the same frame of this belief .... if the child chose that spanking
parent, and you believe that this parent is "where she is for a
reason", if you go one step further... wouldn't YOU then also be where
you were for a reason? Meaning, if YOU were at that mall at the same
time as that child was being spanked, might your purpose have been to
offer some guidance or step in and tell the woman to stop? I'm trying
to follow this and it seems to me that if *everyone* is where they're
supposed to be then why were YOU there at that exact moment to witness
it? Were you supposed to do or say something to help guide that woman
on her path? Or was it simply coincidental and you take in that scene
like data to be filed without judging her behavior "tra-la-la"?

Just curious.
-Tracy-

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/2004 10:51:17 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Cooing and stroking. Soothing "don't think, don't worry" messages.



~~

I am so needing something like that, though, with regard to my son going to
Iraq. Except it has to be people who agree with me that war is bad and the
war in Iraq is bad and my son is not at fault and that it's okay if I honor his
service even though I don't in any way whatsoever honor war. It would have
to be people who don't mind my irrational state of mind about it all.

If anyone knows any group that's the exact opposite of Blue Star Mothers,
let me know.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marjorie Kirk

In a message dated 8/10/2004 10:51:17 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Cooing and stroking. Soothing "don't think, don't worry" messages.



~~

I am so needing something like that, though, with regard to my son going to
Iraq. Except it has to be people who agree with me that war is bad and the
war in Iraq is bad and my son is not at fault and that it's okay if I honor
his service even though I don't in any way whatsoever honor war. It would
have to be people who don't mind my irrational state of mind about it all.

If anyone knows any group that's the exact opposite of Blue Star Mothers,
let me know.

Karen




Karen,

I'm not good at cooing and stroking from hundreds of miles away, but I can
definitely support you in this, and I don't think you have an irrational
state of mind at all!!!! War is bad. I can't even imagine anyone wanting
to argue that point. But your son is not at fault for it. I assume he's
there doing the best job he can. I think it's great that you support his
choices even if you may or may not agree with them.


Marjorie