Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] shoe issue
Nancy Jozwick
I finally had to check this out - going to google search as you suggested!! What I learned : no one really knows & there are a lot of "reasons" people give for this trend. So - I would go with this: if my dd said that was why it was being done - I would believe her & believe that is what is going on in my area. However, if I lived somewhere else, I don't think I would just believe this to be the case.
I have to agree with one statement that I read; if it is done to show drug dealers/gangs etc.....they are letting everyone know where they are - including the authorities!
nancyjoz
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I have to agree with one statement that I read; if it is done to show drug dealers/gangs etc.....they are letting everyone know where they are - including the authorities!
nancyjoz
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2004 7:30:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nancyjoz@... writes:
So - I would go with this: if my dd said that was why it was being done - I
would believe her & believe that is what is going on in my area.
=========
I've seen shoes on power lines since before I had children.
If one of my children asserted that it meant something, I'd ask why he
thought so. If he heard it from another person, I'd ask why he thought that person
knew.
-=-I have to agree with one statement that I read; if it is done to show drug
dealers/gangs etc.....they are letting everyone know where they are -
including the authorities!-=-
Yeah?
Do different gangs use different colored shoes?
Don't you think gang members have better things to do than hang shoes on
power lines?
Don't you think crack houses and meth labs would prefer NOT to hang out a
marker?
Sandra
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nancyjoz@... writes:
So - I would go with this: if my dd said that was why it was being done - I
would believe her & believe that is what is going on in my area.
=========
I've seen shoes on power lines since before I had children.
If one of my children asserted that it meant something, I'd ask why he
thought so. If he heard it from another person, I'd ask why he thought that person
knew.
-=-I have to agree with one statement that I read; if it is done to show drug
dealers/gangs etc.....they are letting everyone know where they are -
including the authorities!-=-
Yeah?
Do different gangs use different colored shoes?
Don't you think gang members have better things to do than hang shoes on
power lines?
Don't you think crack houses and meth labs would prefer NOT to hang out a
marker?
Sandra
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Nancy Jozwick
Wow Sandra....are you saying if your dd told you something like this you wouldn't believe her?
I don't know what drug/gang people have time to do or not to do. Most people find the time to do whatever it is they want to do. I think they would be smart enough to not hang out a marker/sign whatever - but then again if they are in a gang or taking dope - who knows what they would/would not do.
nancyjoz
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I don't know what drug/gang people have time to do or not to do. Most people find the time to do whatever it is they want to do. I think they would be smart enough to not hang out a marker/sign whatever - but then again if they are in a gang or taking dope - who knows what they would/would not do.
nancyjoz
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:19:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nancyjoz@... writes:
Wow Sandra....are you saying if your dd told you something like this you
wouldn't believe her?
====
"Wow"?
There is no one I would believe about something that sounded nonsensical and
unproveable.
I would believe that she thought what she was saying was true. But I would
ask her to consider her own source, and how they might know something that is
nonsensical and unproveable.
-=-I don't know what drug/gang people have time to do or not to do.-=-
But can't you consider whether something makes sense?
For me, unschooling involves examination of ideas, or theories, information,
explanations...
"How do you know?" "What makes you think so?" Questions like those are
worth WAY more than just believing that a little girl is privy to the plans of
some non-existent interstate drug-dealer agreements.
Sandra
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nancyjoz@... writes:
Wow Sandra....are you saying if your dd told you something like this you
wouldn't believe her?
====
"Wow"?
There is no one I would believe about something that sounded nonsensical and
unproveable.
I would believe that she thought what she was saying was true. But I would
ask her to consider her own source, and how they might know something that is
nonsensical and unproveable.
-=-I don't know what drug/gang people have time to do or not to do.-=-
But can't you consider whether something makes sense?
For me, unschooling involves examination of ideas, or theories, information,
explanations...
"How do you know?" "What makes you think so?" Questions like those are
worth WAY more than just believing that a little girl is privy to the plans of
some non-existent interstate drug-dealer agreements.
Sandra
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Pam Hartley
> Wow Sandra....are you saying if your dd told you something like this youThe point was in helping a child learn critical thinking, not a matter of
> wouldn't believe her?
Sandra thinking her daughter would be willfully lying to her.
Have you never asked friends, your spouse, or even your children, when they
made a statement that sounded strange, "Really? Where did you hear that? How
do you know?"
By asking a child to cite her sources, we're asking her to think for
herself, not just randomly repeat what "a friend" (or even her sainted
parents) have fed her.
Such children will, I dearly hope, grow up to be finer critical thinkers and
skeptics than 98% of the folks I run into on the internet. <g>
Pam Hartley
TreeGoddess
On Jul 17, 2004, at 9:47 PM, Nancy Jozwick wrote:
that I wouldn't question their truthfulness but rather their source of
this information. I'd do the same thing if it were my sister, husband
or friend. It doesn't mean I think that they're lying. KWIM?
-Tracy-
> Wow Sandra....are you saying if your dd told you something like thisI'm not Sandra (obviously ;') but if my child told me something like
> you wouldn't believe her?
that I wouldn't question their truthfulness but rather their source of
this information. I'd do the same thing if it were my sister, husband
or friend. It doesn't mean I think that they're lying. KWIM?
-Tracy-
Nancy Jozwick
I guess I give my child more credit to have thought things through & have checked things out for herself.....
(BTW - I would have questioned her about it....but I would have believed her unless I could have proved her wrong.)
nancyjoz
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(BTW - I would have questioned her about it....but I would have believed her unless I could have proved her wrong.)
nancyjoz
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2004 10:43:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nancyjoz@... writes:
I guess I give my child more credit to have thought things through & have
checked things out for herself.....
===========
That's kind of insulting, isn't it?
And where would she have checked it out?
Did you check it out?
-=-(BTW - I would have questioned her about it....but I would have believed
her unless I could have proved her wrong.)
-=-
Believing something unless you can prove it wrong isn't consistent with
research or critical thinking. If Holly tells me something she herself witnessed,
I have no reason or desire to even considering proving her wrong. She's a
reliable, thoughtful person.
If Holly tells me something she heard that doesn't sound right or doesn't
sound like something she should be believing without really considering it or
getting other information, I'll ask her more. I would do the same for anyone
else. I did it here on this list today.
I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say without checking, when it's
general or historical or not about my own very personal experience. Even then,
I'll give more details if people need them. And as with anything else in the
world, we learn which people are good sources and which are just chat without
substance. People who know me and know my kids probably wouldn't suspect me
of not giving Holly credit. But I don't consider Holly a reliable source of
gang practice and policy. And she wouldn't make a statement about something
like that without qualifying it. "Logan says," or "I heard on TV," or whatever.
Sandra
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nancyjoz@... writes:
I guess I give my child more credit to have thought things through & have
checked things out for herself.....
===========
That's kind of insulting, isn't it?
And where would she have checked it out?
Did you check it out?
-=-(BTW - I would have questioned her about it....but I would have believed
her unless I could have proved her wrong.)
-=-
Believing something unless you can prove it wrong isn't consistent with
research or critical thinking. If Holly tells me something she herself witnessed,
I have no reason or desire to even considering proving her wrong. She's a
reliable, thoughtful person.
If Holly tells me something she heard that doesn't sound right or doesn't
sound like something she should be believing without really considering it or
getting other information, I'll ask her more. I would do the same for anyone
else. I did it here on this list today.
I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say without checking, when it's
general or historical or not about my own very personal experience. Even then,
I'll give more details if people need them. And as with anything else in the
world, we learn which people are good sources and which are just chat without
substance. People who know me and know my kids probably wouldn't suspect me
of not giving Holly credit. But I don't consider Holly a reliable source of
gang practice and policy. And she wouldn't make a statement about something
like that without qualifying it. "Logan says," or "I heard on TV," or whatever.
Sandra
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Sylvia Toyama
Tagging -- gang members paint markers around their areas. Everything from simple logos to elaborate mini-murals, many with very individual info that makes it clear who put it there. Makes it really easy for the cops to know who to arrest. That alone is enough to convince gang-bangers aren't the most clever folks you'll ever meet. Heck, if they'll paint their name on a wall or freeway overpass, why not hang shoes if it means something to them?
I've seen the shoes on a line in front of our corner mid-school, making me think it's more about adolescent pranks than anything else. I do see gang tags around the area on a regular basis, so I know there's gang activity -- right in our favorite park after dark if the graffiti is any indication.
Syl
Syl
*****
I don't know what drug/gang people have time to do or not to do. Most people find the time to do whatever it is they want to do. I think they would be smart enough to not hang out a marker/sign whatever
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I've seen the shoes on a line in front of our corner mid-school, making me think it's more about adolescent pranks than anything else. I do see gang tags around the area on a regular basis, so I know there's gang activity -- right in our favorite park after dark if the graffiti is any indication.
Syl
Syl
*****
I don't know what drug/gang people have time to do or not to do. Most people find the time to do whatever it is they want to do. I think they would be smart enough to not hang out a marker/sign whatever
---------------------------------
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New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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[email protected]
In a message dated 7/17/2004 11:12:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
I do see gang tags around the area on a regular basis, so I know there's gang
activity -- right in our favorite park after dark if the graffiti is any
indication.
------
I doubt graffiti is indication of anything but some 12 year old trying to
impress some 11 year old with a can of spray paint.
Sandra
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sylgt04@... writes:
I do see gang tags around the area on a regular basis, so I know there's gang
activity -- right in our favorite park after dark if the graffiti is any
indication.
------
I doubt graffiti is indication of anything but some 12 year old trying to
impress some 11 year old with a can of spray paint.
Sandra
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Sylvia Toyama
Given a recent SWAT situation on our street, and the gang tattoos I see on the seemingly never-ending stream of guys age 18 to late 20's who visit the house next door, I'm convinced there is some gang activity. For several months in '02, they were swapping/selling fancy wheels from their front yard. Either the then-16yo kid next door was quite the entrepreneur, or the wheels were hot (they hid the wheels under their hedge, so something was not quite right). What with his recent jail time, I'm guessing he's not the next cover of Fortune magazine.
Syl
****
I doubt graffiti is indication of anything but some 12 year old trying to
impress some 11 year old with a can of spray paint.
Sandra
__________________________________________________
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Syl
****
I doubt graffiti is indication of anything but some 12 year old trying to
impress some 11 year old with a can of spray paint.
Sandra
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/2004 12:05:07 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
Given a recent SWAT situation on our street, and the gang tattoos I see on
the seemingly never-ending stream of guys age 18 to late 20's who visit the
house next door, I'm convinced there is some gang activity.
====
I don't doubt there are gangs.
I doubt they spend much time painting the drainage ditches and back walls of
stores when they could be stealing wheels.
A crack house was discovered and cleaned out two houses out from our
cul-de-sac last year. They really never did advertise, y'know?
Sandra
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sylgt04@... writes:
Given a recent SWAT situation on our street, and the gang tattoos I see on
the seemingly never-ending stream of guys age 18 to late 20's who visit the
house next door, I'm convinced there is some gang activity.
====
I don't doubt there are gangs.
I doubt they spend much time painting the drainage ditches and back walls of
stores when they could be stealing wheels.
A crack house was discovered and cleaned out two houses out from our
cul-de-sac last year. They really never did advertise, y'know?
Sandra
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Elizabeth Hill
**If Holly tells me something she heard that doesn't sound right or doesn't
sound like something she should be believing without really considering
it or
getting other information, I'll ask her more. I would do the same for
anyone
else. I did it here on this list today.
I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say without checking, when it's
general or historical or not about my own very personal experience. **
There are places where it is considered virtuous and even pious to "take
things on faith", but this isn't one of them.
Going beneath the surface and the facile answer is an important part of
unschooling.
Betsy
sound like something she should be believing without really considering
it or
getting other information, I'll ask her more. I would do the same for
anyone
else. I did it here on this list today.
I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say without checking, when it's
general or historical or not about my own very personal experience. **
There are places where it is considered virtuous and even pious to "take
things on faith", but this isn't one of them.
Going beneath the surface and the facile answer is an important part of
unschooling.
Betsy
[email protected]
Hi,
Did a little online research about the "sneakers over the telephone wire"
issue, since I was also once told that it meant gang or drug activity. Here's
what two websites found when they did an informal survey...
The Straight Dope: Why do you see pairs of shoes hanging by the laces from
powe
Sneakers on Power Lines
Apparently it means different things to different people.
Amy Kagey
Usborne Books
www.ubah.com/z0939
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Did a little online research about the "sneakers over the telephone wire"
issue, since I was also once told that it meant gang or drug activity. Here's
what two websites found when they did an informal survey...
The Straight Dope: Why do you see pairs of shoes hanging by the laces from
powe
Sneakers on Power Lines
Apparently it means different things to different people.
Amy Kagey
Usborne Books
www.ubah.com/z0939
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Sneakers on Power Lines
Apparently it means different things to different people.
===========
But if none of them are objective truth, then it was false meaning.
I have a friend who's crazy for signs from God. If a crow flies in front of
his car he thinks it's a message about what he should do.
So crows mean different things to me and him, but that doesn't mean our
interpretations are equally valid.
I think that as parents who have taken responsibility for our children's
educations (in whatever form we choose) we should be careful to help them learn to
reason and find truth, not to just say "ooh, whatever, yeah, let's act on
crow flights and shoes hanging from phone lines and rumors and e-mail chain
letters. Don't go trick or treating because some people put needles and razor
blades in apples. Don't read or watch Harry Potter because they'll teach you how
to do real spells,and you'll be susceptible to Satan the whole time you're
thinking about Hogwarts."
I wish people like that would put their kids in school where at least the
kids would have a chance to meet people who would help them learn to be
analytical.
Sandra
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Apparently it means different things to different people.
===========
But if none of them are objective truth, then it was false meaning.
I have a friend who's crazy for signs from God. If a crow flies in front of
his car he thinks it's a message about what he should do.
So crows mean different things to me and him, but that doesn't mean our
interpretations are equally valid.
I think that as parents who have taken responsibility for our children's
educations (in whatever form we choose) we should be careful to help them learn to
reason and find truth, not to just say "ooh, whatever, yeah, let's act on
crow flights and shoes hanging from phone lines and rumors and e-mail chain
letters. Don't go trick or treating because some people put needles and razor
blades in apples. Don't read or watch Harry Potter because they'll teach you how
to do real spells,and you'll be susceptible to Satan the whole time you're
thinking about Hogwarts."
I wish people like that would put their kids in school where at least the
kids would have a chance to meet people who would help them learn to be
analytical.
Sandra
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arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
their free time, and they usually drew that stylized lettering that is
associated with tagging. Very few were gang wanna-be's. Many were
from a Latino culture that was filled with dramatic, religious, and
almost-Gothic art (not sure what to call that style, exactly). The
art they drew was important not just to them and to friends, but also
to their families.
I came to realize that it was another one of those things that kids
see and wonder, "Can I do that?"
And by the way, so far, I can't. <g>
Peace,
Amy
> In a message dated 7/17/2004 11:12:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,trying to
> sylgt04@y... writes:
> I doubt graffiti is indication of anything but some 12 year old
> impress some 11 year old with a can of spray paint.I agree. When I taught in Houston, most of my kids would draw in
>
their free time, and they usually drew that stylized lettering that is
associated with tagging. Very few were gang wanna-be's. Many were
from a Latino culture that was filled with dramatic, religious, and
almost-Gothic art (not sure what to call that style, exactly). The
art they drew was important not just to them and to friends, but also
to their families.
I came to realize that it was another one of those things that kids
see and wonder, "Can I do that?"
And by the way, so far, I can't. <g>
Peace,
Amy