Danielle Conger

OH! Duncan got a whiff of that at a homeSCHOOLING (emphasis on the
> *schooling*) 4-H meeting.
>
> We had to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance, sit in neat rows, raise
> our hands to speak, and then follow the "program", which was about leaves
and
> trees and bark. *I* did the "assignment" of collecting the items from the
yard
> while Duncan played with the host kids toys! <G>
=========================

I was going to post about this, so thanks for the lovely segue Kelly! ;)

After the recent thread here on 4-H, I explored it more and have just
finished the leader application process. (I had looked into Scouts several
months ago, and ended up letting that drop because it seemed so rigid.) Now,
I'm in the process of putting together a homeschool 4-H club that will meet
just a few times a year and will, hopefully, spin off several smaller
project clubs.

My question to all you 4-Hers out there is how do you keep the meetings
unschooling friendly? My concerns are maintaining an atmosphere that's light
and relatively non-competative (yes, I know 4-H promotes competition),
keeping it age-inclusive and keeping it flexibible enough to work for the
kids but structured enough to hold together. Have people had success with
these kinds of things? 4-H is pushing their Clover (ages 5-7) curriculum on
me (which I will smile and take then put in some dark place until I return
it with gratitude) because my kids are 6, 5 and 4 and I will be including a
Clover group in our Community Club. I want to incorporate the Clovers in the
project clubs themselves, and I'm hoping to minimize the age categories as
much as possible. Are these realistic goals, and how have the unschooling
4-Hers approached these issues in their own clubs?

Just fyi: as of now, we'll be offering an Heirloom Poultry club, a Rock
Hounds climbing club and a Gardening for Life club.

Thanks!

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

J. Stauffer

Our club is more 4-H friendly in that I am adamant that the kids run the
club. To be a 4-H club, they do need to follow certain guidelines, like
number of meetings per year, taking attendance, doing a community service
project, etc..

But the kids decide what project they want to do, get it organized, then
fill me in on the details (I'm the leader). No one is required to do much
of anything but there are certain requirements that are expected to be met
for certain activities. Example: To be an officer, you are expected to
attend a leadership camp and complete a record book. Doesn't mean you get
kicked off for not doing it, just that it is expected.

The trouble we had with the very younger kids and the older kids mixed
together is that the younger kids would get bored and want to do something
else before the big kids were or that the big kids wanted to do things at a
deeper level than the younger kids.

Our clover kids has no curriculum. Any younger kid that doesn't want to do
the main meeting can go in the gym with alternating moms and do some sort of
activity...or just play.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danielle Conger" <danielle.conger@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 10:30 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Keeping 4-H unschooly (was: What to Say?)


> OH! Duncan got a whiff of that at a homeSCHOOLING (emphasis on the
> > *schooling*) 4-H meeting.
> >
> > We had to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance, sit in neat rows,
raise
> > our hands to speak, and then follow the "program", which was about
leaves
> and
> > trees and bark. *I* did the "assignment" of collecting the items from
the
> yard
> > while Duncan played with the host kids toys! <G>
> =========================
>
> I was going to post about this, so thanks for the lovely segue Kelly! ;)
>
> After the recent thread here on 4-H, I explored it more and have just
> finished the leader application process. (I had looked into Scouts several
> months ago, and ended up letting that drop because it seemed so rigid.)
Now,
> I'm in the process of putting together a homeschool 4-H club that will
meet
> just a few times a year and will, hopefully, spin off several smaller
> project clubs.
>
> My question to all you 4-Hers out there is how do you keep the meetings
> unschooling friendly? My concerns are maintaining an atmosphere that's
light
> and relatively non-competative (yes, I know 4-H promotes competition),
> keeping it age-inclusive and keeping it flexibible enough to work for the
> kids but structured enough to hold together. Have people had success with
> these kinds of things? 4-H is pushing their Clover (ages 5-7) curriculum
on
> me (which I will smile and take then put in some dark place until I return
> it with gratitude) because my kids are 6, 5 and 4 and I will be including
a
> Clover group in our Community Club. I want to incorporate the Clovers in
the
> project clubs themselves, and I'm hoping to minimize the age categories as
> much as possible. Are these realistic goals, and how have the unschooling
> 4-Hers approached these issues in their own clubs?
>
> Just fyi: as of now, we'll be offering an Heirloom Poultry club, a Rock
> Hounds climbing club and a Gardening for Life club.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Danielle
>
> http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

pam sorooshian

On Jun 8, 2004, at 8:30 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> Just fyi: as of now, we'll be offering an Heirloom Poultry club, a Rock
> Hounds climbing club and a Gardening for Life club.

We would call these "projects" not "clubs." The "club" is the
overriding group - the one that has a monthly business meeting, keeps
the organization's records, has an elected board with officers (kids)
who are president, secretary, treasurer, etc. Our club is called the
Orange Villa Buckaroos. I run the "theater arts project" for that club.
The club offers about 20 other projects - everything from photography
and computer programming to horses and sheep and sewing and
leathercraft and gardening. People can also sign up for projects
offered by other clubs than their own, if they have room in them.

-pam


National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Jun 8, 2004, at 11:32 AM, J. Stauffer wrote:

> Example: To be an officer, you are expected to
> attend a leadership camp and complete a record book. Doesn't mean you
> get
> kicked off for not doing it, just that it is expected.

Not expected in our club. Few do it - they're too busy with their
horses and other projects.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Danielle Conger

Pam wrote:
We would call these "projects" not "clubs." The "club" is the
> overriding group - the one that has a monthly business meeting, keeps
> the organization's records, has an elected board with officers (kids)
> who are president, secretary, treasurer, etc. Our club is called the
> Orange Villa Buckaroos. I run the "theater arts project" for that club.
> The club offers about 20 other projects - everything from photography
> and computer programming to horses and sheep and sewing and
> leathercraft and gardening. People can also sign up for projects
> offered by other clubs than their own, if they have room in them.
==============

Okay, see, here's where it's all confusing to me. Would those not be
"Project Clubs" then? They don't need to be that formal, is that it? Do the
project leaders need to be 4-H project leaders, or do the moms/dads just
informally step up within the umbrella of the Orange Villa Buckeroo Club?

Sorry to be so dense--these are the logistics that I'm trying to figure out,
and the folks here don't seem to be that clear on it themselves. In 4-H
lingo, there are Community Clubs, Project Clubs, School Clubs. So, I'm
figuring if we have a Community Club that offers several Projects within it
that would offer lots of opportunities for the homeschooling community. It
sounds like you're saying I can do that without creating a special "Project
Club" for each project, correct? That would certainly be much easier!

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

pam sorooshian

On Jun 8, 2004, at 2:31 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:

>
> Sorry to be so dense--these are the logistics that I'm trying to
> figure out,
> and the folks here don't seem to be that clear on it themselves. In 4-H
> lingo, there are Community Clubs, Project Clubs, School Clubs. So, I'm
> figuring if we have a Community Club that offers several Projects
> within it
> that would offer lots of opportunities for the homeschooling
> community. It
> sounds like you're saying I can do that without creating a special
> "Project
> Club" for each project, correct? That would certainly be much easier!

Lots of involved people aren't clear.

Ignore "School Clubs" - that's their new thing of running after-school
4H program - it is doing 4H stuff, but in a daycare situation.

Normal situation --
Community Club is started - it has bylaws, officers.
People/parents offer to lead projects - these are projects of that
Community Club. Photography, sheep, quilting, whatever.....

The Community Club does SOME things as a whole club - some community
service, usually. They normally have a business meeting once a month.
Kids run it with help from adult club advisor. It may or may not
involve more than just club business - might have a speaker or play
some games or do some community service project or practice demos.

You might have ALL club kids involved in one project and only a couple
of club kids involved in another project. Some kids might be in ALL
projects, some might be only in one project.

Projects are not normally called "Project Clubs" - they're usually
called, "the Horse Project" or "the Arts and Crafts project." But it
does happen that the terminology gets used - especially if there are a
lot of kids in a project, some people will call it the "horse club." I
don't think that it is ever, technically, a "club" unless you split off
from the original club and have your own separate name and bylaws and
officers.

You can't be in more than one "club," but you can be in as many
projects as you want.

Sometimes the county offers projects that aren't under any club.
You can join projects offered by clubs other than your own club, if
they have room for you.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

J. Stauffer

<<< Would those not be
"Project Clubs" then?>>>

No, a project club is usually a project that has gotten so big that they
need more organization.

A community club is made up of people who live close to each other (usually)
and may have many, many projects associated with it. Projects are very
loosely organized (usually) with simply a parent, teen or other adult
stepping up to say they are interested in leading a project about something
that interests them or their child.

A project club functions like a community club but everyone in the club does
the same project.

Our county has 15 4-H clubs. Many of them are community clubs. My kids are
in a community club because most of the members are friends of theirs and
they feel very confident taking leadership roles. They usually do a couple
of projects associated with that club, like sewing or ballistics.

Zach is also in a project club for shooting skeet and Adriane is in a
project club for raising goats. This is where they get very in-depth,
intensive learning about the project they are passionate about.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danielle Conger" <danielle.conger@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Keeping 4-H unschooly (was: What to
Say?)


> Pam wrote:
> We would call these "projects" not "clubs." The "club" is the
> > overriding group - the one that has a monthly business meeting, keeps
> > the organization's records, has an elected board with officers (kids)
> > who are president, secretary, treasurer, etc. Our club is called the
> > Orange Villa Buckaroos. I run the "theater arts project" for that club.
> > The club offers about 20 other projects - everything from photography
> > and computer programming to horses and sheep and sewing and
> > leathercraft and gardening. People can also sign up for projects
> > offered by other clubs than their own, if they have room in them.
> ==============
>
> Okay, see, here's where it's all confusing to me. Would those not be
> "Project Clubs" then? They don't need to be that formal, is that it? Do
the
> project leaders need to be 4-H project leaders, or do the moms/dads just
> informally step up within the umbrella of the Orange Villa Buckeroo Club?
>
> Sorry to be so dense--these are the logistics that I'm trying to figure
out,
> and the folks here don't seem to be that clear on it themselves. In 4-H
> lingo, there are Community Clubs, Project Clubs, School Clubs. So, I'm
> figuring if we have a Community Club that offers several Projects within
it
> that would offer lots of opportunities for the homeschooling community. It
> sounds like you're saying I can do that without creating a special
"Project
> Club" for each project, correct? That would certainly be much easier!
>
> --Danielle
>
> http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

J. Stauffer

<<<You can't be in more than one "club," but you can be in as many
projects as you want.>>>

In our county, we have lots of project clubs and you can be in as many clubs
you would like. But yes, a project club has its own officers, by-laws,
etc.. It is just like a community club except that it is organized around
one project, like Rabbits or horses.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Keeping 4-H unschooly (was: What to
Say?)


>
> On Jun 8, 2004, at 2:31 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry to be so dense--these are the logistics that I'm trying to
> > figure out,
> > and the folks here don't seem to be that clear on it themselves. In 4-H
> > lingo, there are Community Clubs, Project Clubs, School Clubs. So, I'm
> > figuring if we have a Community Club that offers several Projects
> > within it
> > that would offer lots of opportunities for the homeschooling
> > community. It
> > sounds like you're saying I can do that without creating a special
> > "Project
> > Club" for each project, correct? That would certainly be much easier!
>
> Lots of involved people aren't clear.
>
> Ignore "School Clubs" - that's their new thing of running after-school
> 4H program - it is doing 4H stuff, but in a daycare situation.
>
> Normal situation --
> Community Club is started - it has bylaws, officers.
> People/parents offer to lead projects - these are projects of that
> Community Club. Photography, sheep, quilting, whatever.....
>
> The Community Club does SOME things as a whole club - some community
> service, usually. They normally have a business meeting once a month.
> Kids run it with help from adult club advisor. It may or may not
> involve more than just club business - might have a speaker or play
> some games or do some community service project or practice demos.
>
> You might have ALL club kids involved in one project and only a couple
> of club kids involved in another project. Some kids might be in ALL
> projects, some might be only in one project.
>
> Projects are not normally called "Project Clubs" - they're usually
> called, "the Horse Project" or "the Arts and Crafts project." But it
> does happen that the terminology gets used - especially if there are a
> lot of kids in a project, some people will call it the "horse club." I
> don't think that it is ever, technically, a "club" unless you split off
> from the original club and have your own separate name and bylaws and
> officers.
>
> You can't be in more than one "club," but you can be in as many
> projects as you want.
>
> Sometimes the county offers projects that aren't under any club.
> You can join projects offered by clubs other than your own club, if
> they have room for you.
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

melissazietlow

> Community Club is started - it has bylaws, officers.

I was in 4-H (Ohio) for 10+ years. Our "community" club was called
the Ridge Kids. Everyone was a member of this club (until now I
never heard the term community before, hence the italics).

> People/parents offer to lead projects - these are projects of that
Community Club. Photography, sheep, quilting, whatever.....

Ditto. If there were a large number of kids taking certain projects,
parents would volunteer as "project leaders" and sometimes have
separate "project meetings" from the regular club meeting to
concentrate on just that project. In our case, it was goats, and
then dogs.


> The Community Club does SOME things as a whole club - some
community service, usually. They normally have a business meeting
once a month.

We (the kids) chose one project that everyone took as a group every
year, usually service related. We worked on this group project at
business meetings, which were usually held twice a month in the
summer. Less often in the fal/winter/spring.

> Kids run it with help from adult club advisor. It may or may not
involve more than just club business - might have a speaker or play
some games or do some community service project or practice demos.

Same here. We would have aspeaker or an activity of some sort at
business meetings, as well as the group project work (time to work on
books and get questions answered/help from leaders).


> You might have ALL club kids involved in one project and only a
couple of club kids involved in another project. Some kids might be
in ALL projects, some might be only in one project.

We had one group project that everyone took, then were free to decide
what others we wanted to take. I usually took 3-5 projects a year,
including the group project.

**I LOVED 4-H!!

Melissa Z.

melissazietlow

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> In our county, we have lots of project clubs and you can be in as
many clubs you would like. But yes, a project club has its own
officers, by-laws, etc.. It is just like a community club except
that it is organized around one project, like Rabbits or horses.

I think that is the way it worked for our county too. We were not
prohibited from joining more than one club. There were many clubs
like mine, where kids took a variety of projects, and there were
also "project" clubs that specialized in only one project such as
dogs or rabbits (until now never heard the term "project club"
before -- we just said the rabbit club or the dog club. These
specialized clubs were usually very large, and were made up of the
kids really focused on just one thing, and maybe didn't want to take
other projects (didn't have a need for "community" club).

Like I said, when we had quite a few kids (5+) taking one project with
(perhaps once a month)in our "community club" we had
separate "project meetings" from our regular business meetings.

One year, after I had been a member of the Ridge Kids ("community"
club)for a long time, and had taken many different projects, I
decided I wanted to get really focused on horses. There were not
many parents in my regular club that knew about horses, so I also
joined the Trailblazers Horse Club ("project" club). I remained in
the Ridge Kids and took a few projects, including our group service
project, but went to the Trailblazers meetings for only horse
projects.

That year was not as fun...the Horse Club was too intense and
competitive for my liking.

Melissa Z.

pam sorooshian

On Jun 8, 2004, at 5:37 PM, J. Stauffer wrote:

> Zach is also in a project club for shooting skeet and Adriane is in a
> project club for raising goats. This is where they get very in-depth,
> intensive learning about the project they are passionate about.
>

And just to belabor this even MORE (I'll stop after this, I promise) -
I don't think those are usually, at least, "technically" clubs - our
horse project is like that - it is huge and it is extremely intense. My
daughter has to go to the stables FOUR times a week to care for horses.
They have to get fed at 7 and and 3 pm. They go to horse shows that
last 2 1/2 days - on a regular basis. So - it is not like other 4H
"projects" at all. But, technically, that is still what it is even if
people refer to it as a club. And our actual community club is still
the overriding group - we still go to club meetings once a month PLUS
do all the horse stuff and have separate horse meetings once a month,
too.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Danielle Conger

So - it is not like other 4H
> "projects" at all. But, technically, that is still what it is even if
> people refer to it as a club. And our actual community club is still
> the overriding group - we still go to club meetings once a month PLUS
> do all the horse stuff and have separate horse meetings once a month,
> too.
============

Thank you. This has been clarified to me now--first from the list, then,
finally last night at my local leader's meeting.

I have one final question: the parents who step up to lead the projects
within the Community Club, are they official 4-H volunteers? Have they gone
through the volunteer application process, or do they just informally lead a
project that interests them? And if they aren't official volunteers, does an
official volunteer have to be present? My county 4-H person was saying that
anyone who works one-on-one with the kids needs to be an official 4-H
volunteer.

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

J. Stauffer

<<<<< I don't think those are usually, at least, "technically" clubs - our
> horse project is like that>>>>

Oh but these are clubs. They have officers, they have fundraisers, they
have business meetings. They work exactly like a community club except that
it focuses on just one project.

Around here, project clubs usually start as a project that is part of a
community club. Claybusters club started out 4 years ago with 7 kids and a
few dads that wanted to compete with trap and skeet. 2 years ago, they had
about 20 kids and broke off from the community club, getting chartered by
4-H, electing officers etc.. Now they have over 45 kids shooting. They are
a 4-H club that only does shooting sports.

In our county, we also have the Rabbit club, Saddleslappers and the Caprine
club.

Lots of kids who are in community clubs also do projects on rabbits, horses,
and goats but those clubs ONLY do those topics.

Julie S.--who didn't realize there was so much variation in 4-H
----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Keeping 4-H unschooly (was: What to
Say?)


>
> On Jun 8, 2004, at 5:37 PM, J. Stauffer wrote:
>
> > Zach is also in a project club for shooting skeet and Adriane is in a
> > project club for raising goats. This is where they get very in-depth,
> > intensive learning about the project they are passionate about.
> >
>
> And just to belabor this even MORE (I'll stop after this, I promise) -
> I don't think those are usually, at least, "technically" clubs - our
> horse project is like that - it is huge and it is extremely intense. My
> daughter has to go to the stables FOUR times a week to care for horses.
> They have to get fed at 7 and and 3 pm. They go to horse shows that
> last 2 1/2 days - on a regular basis. So - it is not like other 4H
> "projects" at all. But, technically, that is still what it is even if
> people refer to it as a club. And our actual community club is still
> the overriding group - we still go to club meetings once a month PLUS
> do all the horse stuff and have separate horse meetings once a month,
> too.
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

J. Stauffer

<<<< the parents who step up to lead the projects
> within the Community Club, are they official 4-H volunteers?>>>

Yes, they are official volunteers. If you had to have a background check,
they will need a background check. If you had to fill out a medical
history, they will have to fill out a medical history. They are on the same
"volunteer basis" as you are. Just that you lead the club and they lead
projects.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danielle Conger" <danielle.conger@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Keeping 4-H unschooly (was: What to
Say?)


> So - it is not like other 4H
> > "projects" at all. But, technically, that is still what it is even if
> > people refer to it as a club. And our actual community club is still
> > the overriding group - we still go to club meetings once a month PLUS
> > do all the horse stuff and have separate horse meetings once a month,
> > too.
> ============
>
> Thank you. This has been clarified to me now--first from the list, then,
> finally last night at my local leader's meeting.
>
> I have one final question: the parents who step up to lead the projects
> within the Community Club, are they official 4-H volunteers? Have they
gone
> through the volunteer application process, or do they just informally lead
a
> project that interests them? And if they aren't official volunteers, does
an
> official volunteer have to be present? My county 4-H person was saying
that
> anyone who works one-on-one with the kids needs to be an official 4-H
> volunteer.
>
> --Danielle
>
> http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

pam sorooshian

On Jun 9, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> My county 4-H person was saying that
> anyone who works one-on-one with the kids needs to be an official 4-H
> volunteer.

I'm not sure this is standard across the country, but, yes, it is
necessary here for volunteers to be "official" - which in our case
means spending a morning in a training program.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.