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In a message dated 6/3/2004 2:15:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jrossedd@... writes:

That kind of thing. Can unschooling be unschooled?<<<<<


I saved this to answer later---and now it's later. Sorry.


I think the problem is that too many of us were schooled. Those of us who
have finally DEschooled are being called upon to answer questions from those who
are still brainwashed by school and society to "teach" them how to UNschool.



I think it's easy to UNschool unschooling if you've never been to school.
But the vast majority----if not ALL---of those approaching us here have been to
school. And presently they have no other "way" to accept or receive new
information. So, they're more comfortable with a more teacher-y approach?



I'm not exactly clear that I'm exactly clear! <G>



But I think that unschooling might not be able to be unschooled, unless
you've BEEN unschooled----and then why would you need to learn it---or even have
it unschooled? <G>


Maybe Joyce could decipher what I'm thinking and make it make sense! Hah!


~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<Can unschooling be unschooled?<<<<<

<<I saved this to answer later---and now it's later. Sorry. >>

Good, Kelly. Thanks. That question kinda slipped by without enough
discussion.


If people don't change the trajectory they're on, they don't arrive at
unschooling.

If one leaves Los Angeles headed for Chicago and starts to complain when the
corn fields come that they really wanted to go to Texas, or Oregon, they will
need to get OFF that train and start a new way, in a new direction. Really
off the train. Not just staying on the old course, but talking about
unschooling.

And if one of the values of unschooling is time and experimentation, whether
someone wants to take their time depends on what they want for their kids.
Putting their kids on a train to Chicago while they consider never putting a
child on a train of ANY sort is impossible to undo.

(Anyone who's in or near Chicago which will keep this analogy from working
should use Albuquerque, or Cucamunga, or Saskatoon. Ah... I *so* need to speak
in Cucamunga. I've done the other two.)

Sandra

Sandra

Sandra

Tiffany Tan

I'm fairly new here, and haven't posted much yet, but I was hoping for some
feedback. My 7 yo dd (whom I call Odette online) has been fascinated with
ghosts for the past few months, inspired by seeing the ballet "Giselle" and
a visit to the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose (which is thought to be
haunted). Ever since, she's been reading every ghost-related book she can
get her hands on, and practices her ghost-hunting skills regularly. : )

Recently, she read about a ghost-related workshop that she wants to attend,
which has now inspired her to *teach* a ghost-hunting class for kids. She
has picked a date, has been thinking about what she plans to cover, made a
flyer about the class, and is ready to distribute them. : ) Very
cool...except...many parents are not comfortable with this topic. I don't
want to inhibit her initiative at all, but I also realize that she might
receive some unexpected/negative responses.

So, my question for you all is: Would it be more supportive to talk with
her about people's varied beliefs regarding ghosts in advance or wait and
see what happens?

Tiffany
tiftan@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/08/2004 11:54:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> And if one of the values of unschooling is time and experimentation,
> whether
> someone wants to take their time depends on what they want for their kids.
> Putting their kids on a train to Chicago while they consider never putting a
>
> child on a train of ANY sort is impossible to undo.
>
>


Right. This list has developed a great approach for the person who, by
saying she is thinking about unschooling, means she is considering it,
thinking about how it fits her family life, or maybe is in mid-leap off the train.

What's offered here to meet that specific need leaves me in
slack-jawed awe! :)

But it isn't the only kind of unschooling discussion I'm interested
in.

My own "thinking about unschooling" doesn't call for pushing me past
some detour or distraction that's preventing me from living unschooling with my
own family; we got off the train 15 years ago and love living where we wound
up.

I get that this isn't most people's cup of tea, to wonder if
unschooling can be unschooled, or what our culture might be like if unschooling
principles were widely adopted, or to search for how to get through to mainstream
folk that unschooling might be a really good thing for THEM and their goals, as
another way to reach more children before it's too late. Just because we're off
the train doesn't mean we can't move!

This is the only unschooling list I've ever been on, and I am new
here. Maybe it isn't the place to discuss that kind of thinking and I'd understand
if not. But I hope that helps explain what I'm usually thinking, and what I
meant by asking. :) JJ




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/04 11:38:09 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< This is the only unschooling list I've ever been on, and I am new
here. Maybe it isn't the place to discuss that kind of thinking and I'd
understand
if not. But I hope that helps explain what I'm usually thinking, and what I
meant by asking. :) >>

I don't think there's a better place. It's a hard question. Let's discuss
it here.

Those who are luckiest, I think, can reflect back on lots of things they
learned on their own in an unschooling, independent, burning curiosity way. Or
even a casual contact kind of way. But those who can remember learning outside
of school (or in school, under the desk; or despite school's real intent)
probably find that a quick shortcut to having faith that kids could learn those
ways even better if they didn't have school to distract them.

I have always learned a lot on my own, but I don't think that makes me an
lifelong unschooler.
(Another topic, I suppose, but I never say "I've been unschooling my kids
since they were born," even though they didn't go to school at all. I don't feel
comfortable when people make spurious or exaggerated claims, and while the
explanations some have made of why they say "unschooling" early make sense, but
I'm still counting from that fateful day when Kirby did not go to Kindergarten
with the rest of the kids his age.)

So if someone has a life history of learning easily because of curiosity,
hobby, reading, interviewing people who .... no, minutely interrogating people
who move to their little town from bigger places <g>... well, it just makes
unschooling that much better.

Maybe unschooling comes sometimes in therapeutic ways. We talk to people
about their memories and the realize that they CAN unearth and dust off
sufficient gradual build-up that forms a foundation for something they can do pretty
effortlessly and soon!

The first time I spoke at a conference, I passed out a "pretest."
It asked a few questions, and one was to name something the person learned
entirely outside of school that they could either teach others or make a living
doing.

Some people have never thought of that question in their lives.

Can we share some of those things here? I'll start another topic-name for it.

Sandra

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:


> (Another topic, I suppose, but I never say "I've been unschooling my kids
> since they were born," even though they didn't go to school at all. I don't
> feel
> comfortable when people make spurious or exaggerated claims, and while the
> explanations some have made of why they say "unschooling" early make sense,
> but
> I'm still counting from that fateful day when Kirby did not go to
> Kindergarten
> with the rest of the kids his age.)
>



I could make the argument both ways, and have put it both ways
depending on context and what I think it will be understood to mean to others.

I've never meant it as a boast or put-down, so I wouldn't want to be
heard that way. Why do you think it comes across to you as a spurious or
exaggerated claim? JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jun 8, 2004, at 12:43 PM, jrossedd@... wrote:

> I've never meant it as a boast or put-down, so I wouldn't want
> to be
> heard that way. Why do you think it comes across to you as a spurious
> or
> exaggerated claim?

She didn't say it necessarily comes across to her that way - she said
some of the explanations for starting counting at birth make sense. She
said that when people DO make spurious or exaggerated claims it makes
her uncomfortable and since she is aware that it "could" come across to
people that she is exaggerating, trying to make it sound like she has
more years of experience as an unschooling parent - to try to impress
people more, she is extra careful and wary of that so she continues to
start "counting" from the time the kids don't go to school rather than
from when they are born.


I count from when they didn't go to school because it is confusing
otherwise. My oldest went to school from 5 to 9 years old. Should I
count the time BEFORE she went to school as unschooling and add that to
the time after we took her out? I should if I'm going to count my
never-went-to-school daughter's entire life. When people ask, "How long
have you been homeschooling?" it would be confusing and misleading to
most people if you just give the child's age. So I don't.

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Elizabeth Hill

** If people don't change the trajectory they're on, they don't arrive at
unschooling.**

And if people are in a "rut", maybe it takes a fairly strong jolt for
them to get out of the rut and steering on their own?

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/04 1:44:04 PM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< I've never meant it as a boast or put-down, so I wouldn't want to be
heard that way. Why do you think it comes across to you as a spurious or
exaggerated claim? >>

Some people do it that way.
Some people come to unschooling.com and say "Oh, is this what it is? I've
been doing it since my child was born."

Well, yes in a way.
Ideally all parents of babies and toddlers are giving them the richest lives
possible.

But as experience goes, claims that are weak are worth less than claims that
are strong.

"Lived there, hated it, stayed in and complained" is different from "Lived
there, LOVED it, got out and explored." One of those would be a better source
of information about the place.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/04 2:38:54 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< When people ask, "How long
have you been homeschooling?" it would be confusing and misleading to
most people if you just give the child's age. So I don't. >>

I suppose I could with Holly, since she was born after Kirby was
homeschooling, but I never assumed Marty and Holly would necessarily stay home. I
honestly assumed Marty would want to go to school, because he liked doing what Kirby
didn't do. But when the time came he wanted to stay home. And I liked it
SO much that he was there entirely of his own free will that I gave Holly the
same option when she got older, but by then I was really hoping she would stay
home. She did.

So what I do say is "My kids have never been to school, and the oldest is 17."

Sandra

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:


> "Lived there, hated it, stayed in and complained" is different from "Lived
> there, LOVED it, got out and explored." One of those would be a better
> source
> of information about the place.
>

Got it, definitely agree, and thanks. :) JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:


> So what I do say is "My kids have never been to school, and the oldest is
> 17."
>
>


I've used that one too -- probably the best all-purpose flour to keep
handy. But I find it another of those pesky ironies if even never-schooled
unschoolers feel the need to let schooling date their unschooling, as if we can't
"do" real unschooling until and unless there's school to not be IN!

With public pre-kindergarten programs soon to be the norm, I suppose
that will automatically tack on a year to unschooling, without us changing a
thing? <eg> JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/8/04 5:12:35 PM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< But I find it another of those pesky ironies if even never-schooled
unschoolers feel the need to let schooling date their unschooling, as if we
can't
"do" real unschooling until and unless there's school to not be IN!
>>

I only feel the need because I hate bullshit and I feel strongly about
integrity.

When Kirby was one, and two, and three, and four, I thought he would go to
school.
Ditto the other kids.

I don't think people can retroactively decide they were unschooling.

-=-With public pre-kindergarten programs soon to be the norm, I suppose
that will automatically tack on a year to unschooling, without us changing a
thing? -=-

Yeah, it would.

But not for people whose kids were never subject to that requirement.

Sandra

Kelly Lenhart

>I don't think people can retroactively decide they were unschooling.

But what about those of us who never intended and still don't intend to send
kids to school?

I have an 8 year old we've been unschooling for about a year. Layed back
homeschooling before that for a year and then schooled before that (all the
way back to infant daycare.)

I could say the 3 year old was exposed to some schoolishness, but the 9
month old?

Don't get me wrong, I get your point, I think. But I just wonder that make
the decision before kids could say they chose to unschool.

Kelly

Robyn Coburn

<<< But I find it another of those pesky ironies if even never-schooled
unschoolers feel the need to let schooling date their unschooling, as if we
can't
"do" real unschooling until and unless there's school to not be IN!>>
<<When Kirby was one, and two, and three, and four, I thought he would go to

school.
Ditto the other kids.
I don't think people can retroactively decide they were unschooling.>>
<<-=-With public pre-kindergarten programs soon to be the norm>>>

I understand both points of view. My decision is to call us Unschoolers even
though Jayn is still below the legal age.

We had decided to homeschool before Jayn was born. We joined a newly formed
local support group when Jayn was 18 months old, three years ago, and I had
already been on the HSC list. I was reading John Holt, but had not really
had the courage or understanding to commit to unschooling until Pam
Sorooshian let me know about this list - but I don't remember exactly when
that was.

I have to call myself an Unschooler, and have done for a while, as I am
surrounded by people who are most emphatically not unschoolers in my hs
group. I finally had to "come out" at my group although I knew a long time
before doing so. Most of them are relaxed/eclectic, but still use curriculum
materials, some are charter, and most have "educational goals" for their
children.

There is definitely an aura that they feel slightly superior and view my
unschooling being not so much dangerous neglect, but a crackpot experiment
that will undoubtedly fade away once Jayn gets older and starts to need more
teaching. I have no fear of this occurring myself!

Most are rigidly controlling of food, tv, computers and how their time is to
be spent. They are also wonderfully gentle, non-spanking parents who allow
their children the opportunity to develop their own games and relationships
at the park without the constant mediation and bossiness that characterizes
the "ordinary" parents we see at parks.

So many of these hs'ers I know are "following a program" even for their
little children, recommending the "early reading" and "reading readiness"
materials. They look for resources for "early immersion Spanish" or take
classes, seek out teachable moments, or insist that their children must do a
certain amount of various subjects before playing. I hear the conversations
although I don't usually participate in them. The parents strive to make it
"more interesting" and sometimes even use (gasp!) videos as part of some
unit studies. These are 3 and 4 and 5 year olds.

They talk about how they did "The Food Pyramid" (as if there were only one)
so that they could explain why their parental food controls were right. They
genuinely delight in how much fun the kids had cutting out little pictures
of fruit etc and sticking them on some chart they downloaded. (Jayn has not
shown the slightest interest in this type of activity so far - she likes to
cut out paper dolls, snowflakes or geometric shapes for use in collages.)

There is plenty of talk about how much enjoyment their child gets from the
whatever Unit they are doing, and how "We have to stop or she'd want to
learn ALL the State capitols in ONE DAY!" I always say, "So, why stop?" The
answers are always either along the lines of some other commitment coming up
in the next half hour, or parental exhaustion. There is always a sense of
envy (not from me!) for those parents whose children love to do workbooks
from the "unlucky" ones whose children resist the things.

I've only ever had one (new to our group) parent actually say, "But you'll
use a Curriculum *later* won't you - when you *need* one?" Answer (with
hidden evil grin): "No - I'm a Radical Unschooler. I can't see us ever using
a curriculum." "Oh". Then parent literally, and I mean literally, turned and
strode briskly away, to another little knot of parents, and hasn't spoken to
me since.

As far as the children go, when the homeschoolers are all playing together
at the park, it is impossible to tell which ones use Abeka or Sonlight or
whatever (names I have heard but know nothing about) from the Unit studiers
or Jayn. It is only when they start to interact with their own parents that
differences in parenting become discernible. There are quite a few parents
who are ready to jump in with "Did you say Thank you for that cracker?".
There are sometimes: "Can we go to Sophia's tomorrow?" "We have to finish
our school work first"; and the occasional inexplicable "May I take off my
sweater?" "No".

It is those moments that remind me with a jolt that I am an Unschooler with
a whole different mind set. Thank goodness!

Robyn L. Coburn



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/04 6:48:23 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< I have to call myself an Unschooler, and have done for a while, as I am
surrounded by people who are most emphatically not unschoolers in my hs
group. I finally had to "come out" at my group although I knew a long time
before doing so. Most of them are relaxed/eclectic, but still use curriculum
materials, some are charter, and most have "educational goals" for their
children. >>

See, now that makes sense in that context. And the eastern corridor thing
has been discussed here (greater "here") for years, that in Delaware kids are
registered for pre-schools (or they apply and are on waiting lists) sometimes
before birth! So an explanation for why one is NOT getting into Madame Poof's
Prep is WAY more real and necessary than someone in New Mexico or Texas or
Colorado having kids in the mini-van all the time. Nobody asks diddly out here.

-=-... or insist that their children must do a
certain amount of various subjects before playing.-=-

Eyew. POOR kids.

-=-As far as the children go, when the homeschoolers are all playing together
at the park, it is impossible to tell which ones use Abeka or Sonlight or
whatever (names I have heard but know nothing about) from the Unit studiers
or Jayn. It is only when they start to interact with their own parents that
differences in parenting become discernible. There are quite a few parents
who are ready to jump in with "Did you say Thank you for that cracker?".
There are sometimes: "Can we go to Sophia's tomorrow?" "We have to finish
our school work first"; and the occasional inexplicable "May I take off my
sweater?" "No".
-=-

A neighboring family used to homeschool and this year the older two were in
school. Holly visits with them in the summer, after a city free-lunch program
at the park between our houses. A few times last winter, I asked whether she
didn't want to go visit, and she would shrug and say no, because the kids
(she names them but I don't know all the names) were in school. There are two
more preschool ages, a baby and a three year old.

Yesterday Holly told me that the mom had told her that those two don't play
together at all anymore. She didn't say it in a particularly sad way, I don't
think. Just informational. Holly thought that was awful, and it's a story
she'll be telling in Las Vegas next weekend.

I forgot to say here that I was speaking in Las Vegas (with Holly). I'll put
that in another post.

Sandra

[email protected]

Sandra:


> <<When Kirby was one, and two, and three, and four, I thought he would go
> to
> school.
> Ditto the other kids.
> I don't think people can retroactively decide they were unschooling.>>
>

*******************

When I was 16, 17 and 18, I thought I was in love for life. I
retroactively decided not, and boy, was that right.

I know now that our firstborn's early years weren't pre-school years,
but I couldn't know that then, much less understand it as "unschooling." Major
life changes were hitting me like crashing waves and it was all I could do to
hang on for the ride. It felt then like I was the only one who'd ever
experienced these feelings and no one could understand, not even me. Just like falling
in love <g> -- analysis and thoughtful decisions about what it all meant
came later, and continues still.

Living in the moment make things look and feel one way; reflection
from a different vantage point can lead to different understanding. Daily news
versus historical perspective perhaps? JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

M Walker

My 10yo daughter is rehearsing the musical "Secret
Garden" and she's playing a ghost! Quite a few of the
main characters are ghosts, as well as the chorus of
little girls.

It's a popular play with community theaters. You might
want to see if it's playing anywhere near you this
summer.

- Meg

--- Tiffany Tan <TifTan@...> wrote:
> I'm fairly new here, and haven't posted much yet,
> but I was hoping for some
> feedback. My 7 yo dd (whom I call Odette online)
> has been fascinated with
> ghosts for the past few months, inspired by seeing
> the ballet "Giselle" and
> a visit to the Winchester Mystery House in San Jose
> (which is thought to be
> haunted). Ever since, she's been reading every
> ghost-related book she can
> get her hands on, and practices her ghost-hunting
> skills regularly. : )





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/

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In a message dated 6/9/04 7:51:00 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< When I was 16, 17 and 18, I thought I was in love for life. I
retroactively decided not, and boy, was that right. >>

But had you married, you coud have said "We've been together since I was
sixteen." Had you stretched it back to birth, that would be an exaggeration not
worth making.

-=-Living in the moment make things look and feel one way; reflection
from a different vantage point can lead to different understanding. Daily
news
versus historical perspective perhaps?-=-

I just don't like historical revision.
Some news is TOO new.

Sandra

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:


> << When I was 16, 17 and 18, I thought I was in love for life. I
> retroactively decided not, and boy, was that right. >>
>
> But had you married, you coud have said "We've been together since I was
> sixteen." Had you stretched it back to birth, that would be an exaggeration
> not
> worth making.
>
>


Did you ever hear anyone do that, though? I haven't, although I do
hear "we were MADE for each other" or people saying they believe in and live by
forces larger than themselves -- predestination, fate, divine plans, and so
forth.

That's really stretching it in the factual sense, but I don't think of
such beliefs (or unschooling!) in the factual or literal sense. I'd say it's
Power of Story that helps me understand them better than mere facts. JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

> << When I was 16, 17 and 18, I thought I was in love for life. I
> retroactively decided not, and boy, was that right. >>
>
> But had you married, you coud have said "We've been together since I was
> sixteen." Had you stretched it back to birth, that would be an
exaggeration
> not
> worth making.

Not trying to belabor the point, just understand in context:

So if someone said, "We were always relaxed about educational issues when
the kids were young. Looking back, I suppose we were already unschooling,
even though we didn't have a name for it...." that wouldn't be an
exaggeration. But it is hindesight coloring the past.

I think you are just talking about being precise. Our infant will have
always been unschooled (hopefully things will only improve) but our oldest
won't have been.

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/04 8:59:38 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< That's really stretching it in the factual sense, but I don't think of
such beliefs (or unschooling!) in the factual or literal sense. I'd say it's
Power of Story that helps me understand them better than mere facts. >>

Ah. When someone tells me her name or her children's ages, I really want to
believe it's true. When she tells me what she thinks and how she came to
those beliefs, I want it not to be embroidered or mythological.

"Mere facts" are important to me.

-=-> << When I was 16, 17 and 18, I thought I was in love for life. I
> retroactively decided not, and boy, was that right. >>
>
> But had you married, you coud have said "We've been together since I was
> sixteen." Had you stretched it back to birth, that would be an
exaggeration
> not
> worth making.
<<< Did you ever hear anyone do that, though? I haven't, >>

No, so I have no idea why the example was given.

If I did NOT have a 17 year old son named Kirby, that would put everything
else I had ever written into question. One turd in the lemonade makes the
whole things undrinkable. I like purity, I like integrity, and I don't think I'm
in the minority on it.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 06/09/2004 12:58:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> If I did NOT have a 17 year old son named Kirby, that would put everything
> else I had ever written into question. One turd in the lemonade makes the
> whole things undrinkable. I like purity, I like integrity, and I don't
> think I'm
> in the minority on it.
>
> Sandra
>


Sounds like you've got liars on your mind. Different conversation imo.
JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/04 1:01:30 PM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< Sounds like you've got liars on your mind. Different conversation
imo. >>

Why is it not okay for me to say what I have always said?
The truth is important and it doesn't hurt people to tell the truth.

People shouldn't exaggerate or mislead. It costs them credibility to do so.
This was not about you, JJ, so let it go. If you choose to defend something
vague, defend it or don't, but don't confuse a vague defense as a clear
counter to the original point.

Sandra