Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] unschooling advice
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2004 12:52:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
On a general homeschooling list, then people will often think the
unschooler response is just crazy - they don't want to just let
penmanship drop - their question was how to teach it better - and "just
don't do it" not only won't be an alternative for them, they'll
sometimes feel that their choice TO do it is being attacked and,
without a lot more explanation of unschooling, they'll very likely get
the impression that unschooling is nothing more than neglecting a
child's education.<<<<<<
And I'm afraid that that's what Helen's going to get with her new
HOMEschooling lists.
That's exactly what's happened on every local inclusive list I've been on.
Plainly, they don't want us there. Our answers are not what they want to
hear. They want to know whether a different curriculum can make their children
learn math (or reading or history or science) better. Or make it more fun. Or
easier. Or without all the yelling and coersion that's happening in their
households right now. They want to know what ideas others have for teaching
handwriting skills or a foreign language or PE or calculus (CALCULUS!!!).
"You don't HAVE to do that at all" is NOT the advice they're looking for
(although I've given that several times until I just unsubbed! <g>).
It's infuriating. And irritating. And not worth my time.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
On a general homeschooling list, then people will often think the
unschooler response is just crazy - they don't want to just let
penmanship drop - their question was how to teach it better - and "just
don't do it" not only won't be an alternative for them, they'll
sometimes feel that their choice TO do it is being attacked and,
without a lot more explanation of unschooling, they'll very likely get
the impression that unschooling is nothing more than neglecting a
child's education.<<<<<<
And I'm afraid that that's what Helen's going to get with her new
HOMEschooling lists.
That's exactly what's happened on every local inclusive list I've been on.
Plainly, they don't want us there. Our answers are not what they want to
hear. They want to know whether a different curriculum can make their children
learn math (or reading or history or science) better. Or make it more fun. Or
easier. Or without all the yelling and coersion that's happening in their
households right now. They want to know what ideas others have for teaching
handwriting skills or a foreign language or PE or calculus (CALCULUS!!!).
"You don't HAVE to do that at all" is NOT the advice they're looking for
(although I've given that several times until I just unsubbed! <g>).
It's infuriating. And irritating. And not worth my time.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/04 11:39:24 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
<< That's exactly what's happened on every local inclusive list I've been on.
Plainly, they don't want us there. Our answers are not what they want to
hear. >>
But there's still unschooling.com!!
Message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/board-topics.html
On *Prodigy, long ago, there were "git gone" battles between structured
Christian homeschoolers and the unschoolers and other "heathens."
So when AOL opened up a homeschooling forum LOTS of people jumped there. But
in no time, every discussion that was started by homeschoolers had some
missionary show up to say we were going to have bratty ignorant children, or trying
to sell us some math program.
So AOL made unschooling folders, that was GREAT! And it was the best place
around for a long time.
But the web because more easily useable by all kinds of people, and Home
Education Magazine opened unschooling.com (in large part to keep the unschooling
flamboyance and controversy out of the their main forum), and this list grew
out of that (and some other lists too).
So compared to any time in the past, unschooling information is easy to come
by, and particular brainstorming help and ideas are readily available.
We still have the problem of being divisive elements at general homeschooling
sites (or sometimes at in-person support groups even), but we DO have
all-unschooling options. And more than one !
In 1992 and those ancient times, I used to wait two months for an issue of
Growing Without Schooling and read every single word, and the good parts twice,
and then know I was two months from another fix.
Sandra
<< That's exactly what's happened on every local inclusive list I've been on.
Plainly, they don't want us there. Our answers are not what they want to
hear. >>
But there's still unschooling.com!!
Message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com/discus/messages/board-topics.html
On *Prodigy, long ago, there were "git gone" battles between structured
Christian homeschoolers and the unschoolers and other "heathens."
So when AOL opened up a homeschooling forum LOTS of people jumped there. But
in no time, every discussion that was started by homeschoolers had some
missionary show up to say we were going to have bratty ignorant children, or trying
to sell us some math program.
So AOL made unschooling folders, that was GREAT! And it was the best place
around for a long time.
But the web because more easily useable by all kinds of people, and Home
Education Magazine opened unschooling.com (in large part to keep the unschooling
flamboyance and controversy out of the their main forum), and this list grew
out of that (and some other lists too).
So compared to any time in the past, unschooling information is easy to come
by, and particular brainstorming help and ideas are readily available.
We still have the problem of being divisive elements at general homeschooling
sites (or sometimes at in-person support groups even), but we DO have
all-unschooling options. And more than one !
In 1992 and those ancient times, I used to wait two months for an issue of
Growing Without Schooling and read every single word, and the good parts twice,
and then know I was two months from another fix.
Sandra
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], "Dawn Adams" <Wishbone@s...> wrote:
My university professor just returned from Canada for a conference and said he saw a TV
program where the two invited guests were from opposing camps and they actually
*talked to each other* rather than shouting over each other.
He said by the end, they each commented on better understanding the opponent even
while being polite and not giving up personal opinions.
It was so remarkable to him that he told us shout-y Americans about it. :)
Julie B
> I'm on a Canadian list ...That says it all. <bwg>
My university professor just returned from Canada for a conference and said he saw a TV
program where the two invited guests were from opposing camps and they actually
*talked to each other* rather than shouting over each other.
He said by the end, they each commented on better understanding the opponent even
while being polite and not giving up personal opinions.
It was so remarkable to him that he told us shout-y Americans about it. :)
Julie B
Dawn Adams
Kelly writes:
And I'm afraid that that's what Helen's going to get with her new
HOMEschooling lists.
That's exactly what's happened on every local inclusive list I've been on.
Plainly, they don't want us there. Our answers are not what they want to
hear. They want to know whether a different curriculum can make their children
learn math (or reading or history or science) better. Or make it more fun. Or
easier. Or without all the yelling and coersion that's happening in their
households right now. They want to know what ideas others have for teaching
handwriting skills or a foreign language or PE or calculus (CALCULUS!!!).
"You don't HAVE to do that at all" is NOT the advice they're looking for
(although I've given that several times until I just unsubbed! <g>).
It's infuriating. And irritating. And not worth my time.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And I'm afraid that that's what Helen's going to get with her new
HOMEschooling lists.
That's exactly what's happened on every local inclusive list I've been on.
Plainly, they don't want us there. Our answers are not what they want to
hear. They want to know whether a different curriculum can make their children
learn math (or reading or history or science) better. Or make it more fun. Or
easier. Or without all the yelling and coersion that's happening in their
households right now. They want to know what ideas others have for teaching
handwriting skills or a foreign language or PE or calculus (CALCULUS!!!).
"You don't HAVE to do that at all" is NOT the advice they're looking for
(although I've given that several times until I just unsubbed! <g>).
It's infuriating. And irritating. And not worth my time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm on a Canadian list for all types of homeschoolers that's exceptional. We have everyone from religious school-at-homers to us radical unschoolers and it works wonderfully. I think in part because it's not restricted to homeschooling issues and we discuss everything from housecleaning to weak shelled chicken eggs. I think we get a chance to see our larger similarities. I'm thinking it may be a Canadian specialty (though even a few americans have snuck on the list :) ), gracefully bridging huge gulfs. We've even had discussions on gays marriages between leftwingers and right wing christians and managed to navigate it well. But....I won't argue that it's not the exception. It does show however that that kind of list can exist and be comfortable for all members.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2004 3:04:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Wishbone@... writes:
I'm on a Canadian list for all types of homeschoolers that's exceptional. We
have everyone from religious school-at-homers to us radical unschoolers and
it works wonderfully. I think in part because it's not restricted to
homeschooling issues and we discuss everything from housecleaning to weak shelled
chicken eggs. I think we get a chance to see our larger similarities. I'm
thinking it may be a Canadian specialty (though even a few americans have snuck
on the list :) ), gracefully bridging huge gulfs. We've even had discussions
on gays marriages between leftwingers and right wing christians and managed to
navigate it well. But....I won't argue that it's not the exception. It does
show however that that kind of list can exist and be comfortable for all
members.
Dawn (in NS)<<<<<
OK, Dawn. But....
I can see that talking about eggs and marriages and flylady can keep the
peace. That's easy.
What happpens when you start talking about respect and trust and curricula
and grades and testing and food and video-gaming and tv.....?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wishbone@... writes:
I'm on a Canadian list for all types of homeschoolers that's exceptional. We
have everyone from religious school-at-homers to us radical unschoolers and
it works wonderfully. I think in part because it's not restricted to
homeschooling issues and we discuss everything from housecleaning to weak shelled
chicken eggs. I think we get a chance to see our larger similarities. I'm
thinking it may be a Canadian specialty (though even a few americans have snuck
on the list :) ), gracefully bridging huge gulfs. We've even had discussions
on gays marriages between leftwingers and right wing christians and managed to
navigate it well. But....I won't argue that it's not the exception. It does
show however that that kind of list can exist and be comfortable for all
members.
Dawn (in NS)<<<<<
OK, Dawn. But....
I can see that talking about eggs and marriages and flylady can keep the
peace. That's easy.
What happpens when you start talking about respect and trust and curricula
and grades and testing and food and video-gaming and tv.....?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** What happpens when you start talking about respect and trust and
curricula
and grades and testing and food and video-gaming and tv.....?**
(a little tongue in cheek)
MAYBE, instead of saying "I'm a *respectful* parent"
which might sound like "You are a *disrespectful meanie*",
one could say "I believe that my child can make good decisions, or can
learn to make good decisions."
And also "I think that giving my child lots of information and the
freedom to make his own choices helps him become a better decision maker."
(Of course, that's a lot more words to type than "respectful". But I
agree that not everyone understands what people on this list might mean
specifically by the phrase "respectful parenting". I think some people
just know that it's bad to be "disrespectful" so they don't like the
implication that they are disrespectful to their kids.)
I think our culture is profoundly disrespectful of young people. Maybe
talking about that can give some perspective and make the issue less
"personal".
Many people take it for granted that it's right and proper to tell kids
what to do (all day long and again at bedtime)! So many people don't
realize that that behavior is "disrespectful".
Betsy
PS On the other hand, one could say "I don't think television is
particularly harmful." Or even, "sugar won't kill you."
curricula
and grades and testing and food and video-gaming and tv.....?**
(a little tongue in cheek)
MAYBE, instead of saying "I'm a *respectful* parent"
which might sound like "You are a *disrespectful meanie*",
one could say "I believe that my child can make good decisions, or can
learn to make good decisions."
And also "I think that giving my child lots of information and the
freedom to make his own choices helps him become a better decision maker."
(Of course, that's a lot more words to type than "respectful". But I
agree that not everyone understands what people on this list might mean
specifically by the phrase "respectful parenting". I think some people
just know that it's bad to be "disrespectful" so they don't like the
implication that they are disrespectful to their kids.)
I think our culture is profoundly disrespectful of young people. Maybe
talking about that can give some perspective and make the issue less
"personal".
Many people take it for granted that it's right and proper to tell kids
what to do (all day long and again at bedtime)! So many people don't
realize that that behavior is "disrespectful".
Betsy
PS On the other hand, one could say "I don't think television is
particularly harmful." Or even, "sugar won't kill you."
Mark and Julie
(Of course, that's a lot more words to type than "respectful". But I agree
that not everyone understands what people on this list might mean
specifically by the phrase "respectful parenting". I think some people just
know that it's bad to be "disrespectful" so they don't like the implication
that they are disrespectful to their kids.)
Many people take it for granted that it's right and proper to tell kids
what to do (all day long and again at bedtime)! So many people don't
realize that that behavior is "disrespectful".
Betsy
"Disrespectful". I think it's a word that many adults would only use in
regard to children; "you know those kids who answer back to adults with
smart alec remarks". So maybe it makes adults uncomfortable to be thought
disrespectful because it makes them feel childish or makes them feel that
others perceive them as childish and therefore foolish-another word used
often regarding children. Blech!
So maybe along with the seed of emotional courage, humility is needed to
make the change from traditional schooling/parenting to unschooling. To be
willing to be vulnerable (like a child) and perhaps feel a little foolish
or be shown what looks like disrespect in order to grow and change.
Julie
that not everyone understands what people on this list might mean
specifically by the phrase "respectful parenting". I think some people just
know that it's bad to be "disrespectful" so they don't like the implication
that they are disrespectful to their kids.)
Many people take it for granted that it's right and proper to tell kids
what to do (all day long and again at bedtime)! So many people don't
realize that that behavior is "disrespectful".
Betsy
"Disrespectful". I think it's a word that many adults would only use in
regard to children; "you know those kids who answer back to adults with
smart alec remarks". So maybe it makes adults uncomfortable to be thought
disrespectful because it makes them feel childish or makes them feel that
others perceive them as childish and therefore foolish-another word used
often regarding children. Blech!
So maybe along with the seed of emotional courage, humility is needed to
make the change from traditional schooling/parenting to unschooling. To be
willing to be vulnerable (like a child) and perhaps feel a little foolish
or be shown what looks like disrespect in order to grow and change.
Julie
[email protected]
" It is not worth my time (as Kelly said) for people who are not
interested in unschooling, even though I sometimes feel impatient and
irritated."
Yeah, same here.
LeaAnne and I have an email list for our support group. There's a Mom on there that is really into "how to teach science". She's working on a book, has her own "periodic table of elements for toddlers" and a website. There has been a lot of interest in her stuff and a science company is going to produce some of it.
Today, she posted on of her famous science activities and said something about how acidity and alkalinity are "abstract concepts so the younger you start showing them this concept, the better".
ARGH.
She and I had a good discussion about unschooling vs. school at home recently...I'm just not wasting the energy to call her out on that comment, lame as it is.
Interestingly, she's staying overnight here next week. I can hang with a lot of different people...just don't get me started on an unschooling discussion!!:)
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
interested in unschooling, even though I sometimes feel impatient and
irritated."
Yeah, same here.
LeaAnne and I have an email list for our support group. There's a Mom on there that is really into "how to teach science". She's working on a book, has her own "periodic table of elements for toddlers" and a website. There has been a lot of interest in her stuff and a science company is going to produce some of it.
Today, she posted on of her famous science activities and said something about how acidity and alkalinity are "abstract concepts so the younger you start showing them this concept, the better".
ARGH.
She and I had a good discussion about unschooling vs. school at home recently...I'm just not wasting the energy to call her out on that comment, lame as it is.
Interestingly, she's staying overnight here next week. I can hang with a lot of different people...just don't get me started on an unschooling discussion!!:)
Ren
Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
Dawn Adams
Kelly writes:
OK, Dawn. But....
I can see that talking about eggs and marriages and flylady can keep the
peace. That's easy.
What happpens when you start talking about respect and trust and curricula
and grades and testing and food and video-gaming and tv.....?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OK, Dawn. But....
I can see that talking about eggs and marriages and flylady can keep the
peace. That's easy.
What happpens when you start talking about respect and trust and curricula
and grades and testing and food and video-gaming and tv.....?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If it's about grades and curricullum than we unschoolers just shut up and let the others talk (after all, we wouldn't know what we're talking about). Just as when it's about a specific unschooling issue they won't contribute. Discussions about differences in food and TV and such can encompass everyone and when that happens, it gets fun. Heated on occasion but rarely disrespectful. Again, if we can talk about gay marriage and we range from right wing Christians to left wing flakes, we can take on any issue. :) I enjoy that list because while you may not agree with the other poster who does not agree with no-limit TV, they will give you their reasons so you can understand and have some respect for how they came to that decision. I don't think it's that hard...But I have posted on AOL boards where respectful discussion seemed like the most difficult thing in the world.
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]