[email protected]

<< I guess I have to just keeping reading and keep trying to change how I
feel about and react to these issues. >>

I'm going to bounce this into another topic area.

Lately there has been discussion about why unschooling lists are contentious.
I'm not sure they're more contentious than other lists on earth, but if they
are, why would that be?

Unschooling isn't just another way to homeschool. And people are accustomed
to going to a book or magazine or website and getting the simple five or ten
facts they wanted, and then going and doing their project. When to divide
bulbs and what fertilizer they need. How to clean a fireplace or who to call and
how often. What to substitute for buttermilk in a recipe. Where to get
pool chemicals, if you live in the boonies and want to mail order.

So people look into homeschooling and they see that what happens is a family
buys a curriculum. Oh! Here are some people who don't. Okay, instead of the
curriculum, what do I use? And hurry, I don't have much time to read online.
And could you e-mail it to me, because I might not find my way back to this
forum.

I think there are other factors too, more subtle. Language works with
labels. Words are labels. People like to know who they are by what they're called,
but they claim not to like it. "I don't like to be labelled" is a form of
"I'm an individualistic person too cool to be pegged, and I like to intimidate
other people to try make them think I can control how they may refer to me."
That's a lot of labelling right there.

Christians are Christians the moment they're baptised or confirmed or the
moment they're born again. No other approval. "You're in."

Jews are Jewish when they're born to a Jewish mom. They're in.

People who enroll in a school are students there. There are Montessori
students, and Waldorf students, and honor students, and pre-med students (I love
that one especially: "I'm pre-med") and law students...

But with unschooling it doesn't quite work that way.

Unschooling is more like riding a bike.

Owning a bike doesn't make you a bicyclist, nor even a bike rider.
Walking the bike around certainly shows you're not a rider.
Talking about riding it doesn't make you a bike rider.
Signing up for a course in bike riding (is there even such a thing??) would
not make you a bike rider, nor would a certificate saying you had completed a
course in bike riding change a damned thing if you couldn't get on the bike and
go.

So with unschooling, you can "not buy the curriculum." You can not send
your kids to school. But when will you be an unschooler?

Is a caterpillar a pre-butterfly?
You have to change inside. Nobody can tell the caterpillar he's going to be
a butterfly. He might easily be bird food, or road kill from a passing
bicyclist.

The way to be an unschooler is to change the way you see and think, so that
you can change the way you act and react..

Nobody can act like a bicyclist (maybe on an off-the-ground bike with a
bluescreen for a movie, but that's not riding a real bike for real). You either
are doing it or you're not.

People can't act like unschoolers and fool unschoolers into thinking they're
really riding it. They have to become unschoolers inside themselves to the
point that they're not always asking "Is this book okay? Is this idea okay?
Is this game educational in any way, and how?"

It's okay to ask at first, but I think some people think they can ask for
twelve or thirteen years, instead of really becoming unschoolers at the depth
where it is part of their thinking and being.

And those who thinking asking forever is the same as being get angry when
those same people they were asking for help or approval say "You're not thinking
it yet. You're not keeping your balance yet. Just go fast enough to feel how
you need to balance. Ride it!"

If I asked "Which pedal should I start with?" after two years of riding a
bike, my friends and relatives might think I was really not too bright at all.
"How far should I lean when I turn?" Exactly far enough. It works by itself,
when you do it. When you become an unschooler, you will know kids are
learning because you see their eyes, you hear their breathing, you see their posture
and you're there with them.

And so some people, when they read things like that, think "AH! So nobody
can tell me if I'm unschooling or not! Whatever I say is unschooling is,
because kids learn all the time."

Yeah. But if the other bicyclists see you back at the starting point
messing awkwardly with your handlebars and not really going anywhere, what you say
you are or can do just won't impress them.

Other people buy their unschooling. We're making our own out of our lives
and families and homes. We transform our lives into unschooling lives, and
it's just not the same as showing your Calvert receipt and saying "We use
Calvert; the box should arrive next week."

Sandra

Jennifer Altenbach

WHOA, Sandra! You must have eaten some protein ;)

That was amazing!

Jenny


<<I'm going to bounce this into another topic area.>>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ecsamhill

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> Yeah. But if the other bicyclists see you back at the starting point
> messing awkwardly with your handlebars and not really going
anywhere, what you say
> you are or can do just won't impress them.
>

Would it strain the analogy to the breaking point if I say that I
think I started pedaling and then got my pants leg caught in the chain
so that I'm not making much forward progress?

I've been thinking about posting that I feel that life is dull at my
house and the sparkly learning stuff isn't happening in vivid
conspicuous ways.

OK, I'll stop here and go sit on the couch and participate in the TV
watching, even though I'd rather diddle around on the internet.

More later if I can express my issue more coherently.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/2004 9:19:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
Would it strain the analogy to the breaking point if I say that I
think I started pedaling and then got my pants leg caught in the chain
so that I'm not making much forward progress?

I've been thinking about posting that I feel that life is dull at my
house and the sparkly learning stuff isn't happening in vivid
conspicuous ways.
================

I read the first paragraph and thought "Maybe you just need a better bike!"

And then I read your second paragraph and realized you knew that already.
<bwg>

Generally, people learn more from new things than same old things.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Bogart

> If I asked "Which pedal should I start with?" after two years of
riding a
> bike, my friends and relatives might think I was really not too
bright at all.
> "How far should I lean when I turn?" Exactly far enough. It works
by itself,
> when you do it. When you become an unschooler, you will know kids are
> learning because you see their eyes, you hear their breathing, you
see their posture
> and you're there with them.

Sandra, your entire post is wonderful but I especially loved this.

"You're there with them."

We were just at a homeschool camp this week. The seniors in high school
were called up front to pass on their wisdom to the younger kids. Each
one expressed in some way how important it was to "do" your schoolwork.
One even said, "Even though I know you hate school, just do it because
you have to and it's important."

The moms at my table immediately nodded their heads with gratitude
because a teen affirmed how they see homeschool.

I couldn't accept that. I burst out: "I would have said: ''Don't ever
do school you hate.'" Blank stares.

I spoke later with my oldest son (16) who said he was already crafting
his words of wisdom for next year: "Don't do anything you don't love
doing. If you do what you love, you'll learn how to do it well and
you'll get to keep doing it."

He carried his copy of Hamlet in Klingon and the Klingon dictionary
with him all week at camp. Kid after kid asked him why he had brought
"school work" to camp. He answered, "Because I really love learning
this stuff." One followed up with, "But you get to take a break this
week. Why would you learn when you don't have to?" Noah just smiled and
said that he liked learning, any time, any place.

He's taught me what unschooling is all about, even as I tried to steady
the bike too many times and was afraid to take those training wheels
off when he was sure he could fly...

Once I let go, he flew. And I was there with him to see it in his eyes,
breathing, posture...

Julie

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], "ecsamhill" <ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> >
> > Yeah. But if the other bicyclists see you back at the starting point
> > messing awkwardly with your handlebars and not really going
> anywhere, what you say
> > you are or can do just won't impress them.
> >
>
> Would it strain the analogy to the breaking point if I say that I
> think I started pedaling and then got my pants leg caught in the chain
> so that I'm not making much forward progress?
>
> I've been thinking about posting that I feel that life is dull at my
> house and the sparkly learning stuff isn't happening in vivid
> conspicuous ways.
>
> OK, I'll stop here and go sit on the couch and participate in the TV
> watching, even though I'd rather diddle around on the internet.
>
Two possibilities (among others, I'm sure):

All of us ebb and flow in the intensity of "active learning." There are times to just relax,
unwind, recover.. to passively grow and learn. This might be a season like that.

Or, it might be that you've lost touch with your kids. That happened to me last spring a
bit. I got too involved in some of my commitments and lost touch with my kids. Then I felt
like our home lives were dull. I reordered my priorities to *be with them* (as Sandra
pointed out) and that really turned things around. In fact, we didn't really change what we
were doing. It's just that I was now doing "it" with them again and that made me feel better
about life at home.

Julie

ecsamhill

> He carried his copy of Hamlet in Klingon and the Klingon dictionary
> with him all week at camp. Kid after kid asked him why he had brought
> "school work" to camp. He answered, "Because I really love learning
> this stuff." One followed up with, "But you get to take a break this
> week. Why would you learn when you don't have to?" Noah just smiled and
> said that he liked learning, any time, any place.

Hi, Julie --

Thanks for posting this. If I tattooed the last two sentences over my
heart I think I'd be a lot less likely to lose sight of the goal in a
moment of panic.

Betsy

Shannon Rizzo

I'm delurking to ask for some guidance. I've tried searching the archives
but can't do an exact phrase search, and the search topic, "school," would
obviously return every message.

My oldest daughter is 8 (I have 3 other children between 16 mths and 6).
She has mentioned a few times that she wants to try school and is very
interested right now in visiting school. She wants homework, she wants
lessons. We've never schooled, nor followed any curriculum in our
homeschooling journey, read on a schedule. I could continue to try to
analyze it forever and have been pondering it for weeks before deciding to
just come here and ask for help.

I hit a personal crisis mode when I realized she really does want to go to
school, and got a mother's helper to play with my two young boys so I can
have time just to be with my older two. If my daughters need more of my
undivided attention, I'm happy to have my boys play nearby with the
babysitter while we play games, cook, do our fun big girl things.

If respecting her curiosity means she tries school, she'll go visit a school
in the Spring. My instincts tell me that she is wanting more activities
with friends her age, she is thirsty for learning - whatever level of
facilitation I've been providing isn't enough. I'll obviously work on
those. If she wants worksheets, or more book-based learning, I can adapt to
help her explore that.

I know that even if I shift my paradigm to keep up with her needs, and even
if I satisfy those needs, she still may choose to try school. That's where
I need help - with dealing with my own feelings. I have really basic strong
objections to institutionalized learning, as probably everyone here does. I
have to let my kids be free to form their own opinions. Hopefully I'm
worrying prematurely over nothing, but have felt quite anxious and even
depressed at the thought of her choosing schooling. Have even felt betrayed
by her, even though logically I've always firmly believed that kids should
be able to sample and choose their own paths - so here she is ready to
sample and I'm not ready emotionally. How do you reconcile your own
objections to school with the prospect of having one or more of your kids in
school?

This is long enough and my feelings are tender so I don't want to ramble any
further. I've read several of Sandra's pages and am hoping others here have
btdts to share, or any other advice on how to deal with this.

Thanks,
Shannon

Heidi Here

My daughter went through that and still does every now and then and then I remind her of what "real" school is like, Maybe I shouldn't scare her but I tell her the truth, Kids are really mean in school...you have to sit for a really long time maybe learning something you could care less about, I just tell her all the bad stuff about it and then I make sure she here's me talking to her public schooled friends about all their homework and how they have to be quite in school. I want her to know its not all fun and games, its not "WOW" look at all the friends I could have! Its more like "WOW the kids are really cruel"!
My daughter craves friends and I believe that's the only reason she would ever want to go to school. But I am very happy to see that the kids in the neighborhood that we are 7 months new to are a product of the public school system and also a product of being raised in homes where their parents don't have a real lot to do with them ( really sad), What I am happy about is that now my daughter sees what kind of children are in these schools and she hasn't talked about going to school with them in months.
I am not saying that all kids in public schools are cruel but I think allot of them are just using whatever survival skills that they no to use to get through there life's and that is one of the main reasons My children wont ever go to school, I cannot stand to see them get hurt, they get enough of that just playing with non unschooled kids!
I hope I made sense, I know I have just rambled away, but I can still feel some of the pain I got being in PS even after all these years ( I am 40, until 12/21 that is!)
Have a great day all,

Heidi in Florida ~still looking for more unschoolers in central Florida!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Shannon Rizzo
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:22 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] My oldest wants a curriculum and to go to school!


I'm delurking to ask for some guidance. I've tried searching the archives
but can't do an exact phrase search, and the search topic, "school," would
obviously return every message.

My oldest daughter is 8 (I have 3 other children between 16 mths and 6).
She has mentioned a few times that she wants to try school and is very
interested right now in visiting school. She wants homework, she wants
lessons. We've never schooled, nor followed any curriculum in our
homeschooling journey, read on a schedule. I could continue to try to
analyze it forever and have been pondering it for weeks before deciding to
just come here and ask for help.

I hit a personal crisis mode when I realized she really does want to go to
school, and got a mother's helper to play with my two young boys so I can
have time just to be with my older two. If my daughters need more of my
undivided attention, I'm happy to have my boys play nearby with the
babysitter while we play games, cook, do our fun big girl things.

If respecting her curiosity means she tries school, she'll go visit a school
in the Spring. My instincts tell me that she is wanting more activities
with friends her age, she is thirsty for learning - whatever level of
facilitation I've been providing isn't enough. I'll obviously work on
those. If she wants worksheets, or more book-based learning, I can adapt to
help her explore that.

I know that even if I shift my paradigm to keep up with her needs, and even
if I satisfy those needs, she still may choose to try school. That's where
I need help - with dealing with my own feelings. I have really basic strong
objections to institutionalized learning, as probably everyone here does. I
have to let my kids be free to form their own opinions. Hopefully I'm
worrying prematurely over nothing, but have felt quite anxious and even
depressed at the thought of her choosing schooling. Have even felt betrayed
by her, even though logically I've always firmly believed that kids should
be able to sample and choose their own paths - so here she is ready to
sample and I'm not ready emotionally. How do you reconcile your own
objections to school with the prospect of having one or more of your kids in
school?

This is long enough and my feelings are tender so I don't want to ramble any
further. I've read several of Sandra's pages and am hoping others here have
btdts to share, or any other advice on how to deal with this.

Thanks,
Shannon



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/2004 12:30:27 AM Central Standard Time,
shannon@... writes:

If respecting her curiosity means she tries school, she'll go visit a school
in the Spring.


~~~

Why wait until spring?

Take her right now. Get in the car and walk into the nearest elementary
school, and ask in the office for a tour. Go during lunch time, so she can
smell the smells and hear the uproar (or silence, depending) in the cafetaria.
Make an attempt to wander the halls unaccompanied and listen in to classrooms;
observe the children standing in line to go to the bathroom. Watch
carefully to see if the teachers smile at the children, and be sure to listen to the
way the teachers speak to them.

I doubt you'll get a tour at all, without making an appointment. I doubt
you'll be allowed to walk down the hall without being stopped. I doubt it will
be a pleasant experience. But if it is, then I don't really see the harm in
helping your daughter find her way to a good decision about it.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/04 11:30:05 PM, shannon@... writes:

<< I've read several of Sandra's pages and am hoping others here have
btdts to share, or any other advice on how to deal with this.
>>

If you already saw
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
I hope others here have added ideas.

Maybe you could read aloud to her from "subject matter" non-fiction a little
more. Maybe you could borrow some third or fourth grade books and go through
a little bit with her, in preparation for the possibility of her going to
school. It might put her off, or she might honestly really perk up and like it.

If you do that, try not to be neutral or positive, rather than negative. I
know it's hard. But it wouldn't be best if she feels she has to choose school
or you.

If you have friends that age or a little older, maybe invite one over and
interview her about what school's really like, the best parts, the worst, the
boring parts, to help her decide.

Sandra

Shannon Rizzo

I don't want to unfairly skew her impression of school by being negative
about it, but I also don't want her artificially enamored of it by going in
the midst of the Thanksgiving - Christmas season. All the decorations,
parties, holiday activities. I want her to see it at just regular school
time. It's just the timing, otherwise I'd do as you suggest and just hop in
the car and go.

Thanks for the info though. I think we will just go without an appointment
as you suggest, and see what our reception is.

Thanks,
Shannon

-----Original Message-----
Why wait until spring? Take her right now. <snip> I doubt you'll get a tour
at all, without making an appointment. I doubt you'll be allowed to walk
down the hall without being stopped. I doubt it will be a pleasant
experience. But if it is, then I don't really see the harm in
helping your daughter find her way to a good decision about it.

Karen

Shannon Rizzo

Thanks Sandra, that was a very helpful article. If she does choose school,
we will definitely be using your article, particularly about detaching and
not making her feel as if she has to choose between us and school. I want
to be very careful to not do that.

My main personal issue is how to deal with my own feelings and issues while
respecting that she deserves to make her own opinions and decisions.

In the meantime we'll add as much non-fiction as she wants to soak up, and
really make an effort to help her find more friends her age. I suggested to
her that she interview her friends - schooled and not schooled, and ask them
questions about what they like and don't like about their schooling
scenario. She's interested in that.

Thanks,
Shannon

-----Original Message-----
If you already saw
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
I hope others here have added ideas.
<snip>

Sandra

Shannon Rizzo

Hopefully I'm fretting all about nothing and she will get a good base from
which to choose unschooling ;>

Thanks Heidi,
Shannon

-----Original Message-----
My daughter went through that and still does every now and then and
then...<snip>

Heidi in Florida ~still looking for more unschoolers in central Florida!!

nellebelle

>>>> I doubt you'll get a tour at all, without making an appointment. I doubt you'll be allowed to walk down the hall without being stopped. >>>>>

Ha! I bet at most schools you could simply walk into the main office, sign in and grab a badge (these are sitting next to the sign in sheets), and simply give yourself a tour. Nobody would expect the child to have a badge, because they would be assumed to be a student. Or simply walk in, and if somebody stops you, say you are on your way to the main office now.

Yes, schools are such safe places...

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/23/2004 10:47:40 AM Central Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:

Ha! I bet at most schools you could simply walk into the main office, sign
in and grab a badge (these are sitting next to the sign in sheets), and
simply give yourself a tour. Nobody would expect the child to have a badge,
because they would be assumed to be a student. Or simply walk in, and if somebody
stops you, say you are on your way to the main office now.



~~~

My daughter-in-law went back yesterday to the high school where she
graduated 4 years ago to visit a teacher who had asked her to stop by to talk about
their degrees. (My dil is about to begin her student teaching in high school
history.) She went in after the bell, and was stopped by someone who didn't
know her, and shown to the office. She was given a badge and signed in and
rudely informed to go straight to the teacher's room and straight back.

The doors to the school my son and I visited had all the doors locked from
the outside, except the one by the office. There are very large signs at all
the entrances, even to the parking lots, that say you are subject to search
if you enter the grounds and you will be charged with trespassing if you don't
have permission to go past the office. That's how it is at all the schools
I was familiar with in that county.

I'm sure that it is different in different parts of the country, but around
here security is *tight*, and the schools have "lockdown" drills.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

I live in a semi-rural area. My experience is visiting our local elementary and middle schools. Everyone is quite friendly. Ours is also a school district known for welcoming homeschoolers in for part-time classes. I have not visited the high schools. Maybe I'll give it a try sometime.

Mary Ellen
----- Original Message -----She went in after the bell, and was stopped by someone who didn't
know her, and shown to the office. She was given a badge and signed in and
rudely informed to go straight to the teacher's room and straight back.

The doors to the school my son and I visited had all the doors locked from
the outside, except the one by the office. There are very large signs at all
the entrances, even to the parking lots, that say you are subject to search
if you enter the grounds and you will be charged with trespassing if you don't
have permission to go past the office. That's how it is at all the schools
I was familiar with in that county.

I'm sure that it is different in different parts of the country, but around
here security is *tight*, and the schools have "lockdown" drills.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/24/2004 12:55:47 PM Central Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:

The doors to the school my son and I visited had all the doors locked from
the outside, except the one by the office.


~~~
I meant, 'The school my son and I visited..."

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]