Andrea

Hello, I've read this list off and on for some time and I think
that this is the first time I've posted. In any case, I'm Andrea
and I've just moved from Portland, OR to Ocean Park, WA. I'm re-
married and we have 3 young children, Stella-age 4, Annie-age 3 and
Evan almost 1, in addition to my 15 yo son, John, who lives with his
father in Alaska. While I think that I do many things right by my
children, I'm just not satisfied. I'm actually very frustrated at
both myself and even my children.

I've been reading this list because I believe in the unschooling
philosophy, even though some of the ideas are difficult for me.
While I realize that I need to let go of my need to control things
so that the kids have more freedom to learn, I'm having a very hard
time doing that. Here is just one problem I am having:

I don't consider myself a "neat freak" by any stretch of the
imagination, but I am ultimately bothered by clutter(can't relax in
it after so many hours) and I do care about taking care of things,
especially since we truly don't have the money to replace things.
I'm very bothered when my kids (including my 10 year old
stepdaughter) take out the art supplies or some other game or puzzle
and then when they are ready to do something else, just leave them--
on the table, the floor, their beds--wherever and often with the
caps off the markers, the puzzle pieces broken or lost or mixed with
the other puzzles etc... I've tried just picking them all up
myself, but that doesn't work. With this many kids and noone to
help me (my husband is working in Portland and we see him only on
weekends, IF he can make it being a contractor.), I find I truly
can't keep up with it. I've even tried to just let go of my need
for order, but there is also the problem of keeping the baby from
eating these things. It is a real hazard. I also try designating a
space for play with small things or art supplies, but they forget
and sometimes, they just plain ignore me. I wind up either yelling
at them or withholding some other treat in order to "manipulate"
them into picking up after themselves.

We have other issues, too, that induce my yelling and I'm so ashamed
of this. I feel I have an anger management problem that I didn't
really realize the extent of until I had the combined stress of 3
small children and really desperate finances. I'm reading Anger:
Wisdom for Cooling the Flames by Thich Nhat Hanh and that's helping
some, because it truly speaks to so many areas of my life, but I can
see that controlling my emotions and what I say is so hard for me.

My mom was a screamer, especially after my parents divorced and she
was on her own with 4 kids, so I know where I learned it, though,
perhaps it's just my nature. In any case, I don't want to be that
way with my children. I'm not sure what kind of advice I'm asking
for, because there are so many things that I'd like to work on. I
guess I wonder how do you meet the needs of your children while also
meeting your own. I know you have to sacrifice some selfish needs,
but I feel like I haven't even a brain cell to myself. I want to
enjoy this time with my little ones, but much of the time I just
can't believe how hard this is.

Any suggestions? Please don't berate me too badly for yelling. I'm
hard enough on myself and am coming here for help.

Andrea

Jennifer Altenbach

Andrea,
I think you could benefit greatly from this group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline/

It is not an unschooling group, although there are some unschoolers
there, and some school at homers, and school people, but they all share
the same desire to communicate better with their kids and practice
positive discipline skills.

You could post this same message there and get some great feedback.

Not that you won't get it here either, it's just that the PP-D group
focuses specifically on this topic.

Check it out! I am certain that they can help you.

Jenny



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea [mailto:aburlingame@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 7:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Advice, please...(I think)

Hello, I've read this list off and on for some time and I think
that this is the first time I've posted. In any case, I'm Andrea
and I've just moved from Portland, OR to Ocean Park, WA. I'm re-
married and we have 3 young children, Stella-age 4, Annie-age 3 and
Evan almost 1, in addition to my 15 yo son, John, who lives with his
father in Alaska. While I think that I do many things right by my
children, I'm just not satisfied. I'm actually very frustrated at
both myself and even my children.

I've been reading this list because I believe in the unschooling
philosophy, even though some of the ideas are difficult for me.
While I realize that I need to let go of my need to control things
so that the kids have more freedom to learn, I'm having a very hard
time doing that. Here is just one problem I am having:

I don't consider myself a "neat freak" by any stretch of the
imagination, but I am ultimately bothered by clutter(can't relax in
it after so many hours) and I do care about taking care of things,
especially since we truly don't have the money to replace things.
I'm very bothered when my kids (including my 10 year old
stepdaughter) take out the art supplies or some other game or puzzle
and then when they are ready to do something else, just leave them--
on the table, the floor, their beds--wherever and often with the
caps off the markers, the puzzle pieces broken or lost or mixed with
the other puzzles etc... I've tried just picking them all up
myself, but that doesn't work. With this many kids and noone to
help me (my husband is working in Portland and we see him only on
weekends, IF he can make it being a contractor.), I find I truly
can't keep up with it. I've even tried to just let go of my need
for order, but there is also the problem of keeping the baby from
eating these things. It is a real hazard. I also try designating a
space for play with small things or art supplies, but they forget
and sometimes, they just plain ignore me. I wind up either yelling
at them or withholding some other treat in order to "manipulate"
them into picking up after themselves.

We have other issues, too, that induce my yelling and I'm so ashamed
of this. I feel I have an anger management problem that I didn't
really realize the extent of until I had the combined stress of 3
small children and really desperate finances. I'm reading Anger:
Wisdom for Cooling the Flames by Thich Nhat Hanh and that's helping
some, because it truly speaks to so many areas of my life, but I can
see that controlling my emotions and what I say is so hard for me.

My mom was a screamer, especially after my parents divorced and she
was on her own with 4 kids, so I know where I learned it, though,
perhaps it's just my nature. In any case, I don't want to be that
way with my children. I'm not sure what kind of advice I'm asking
for, because there are so many things that I'd like to work on. I
guess I wonder how do you meet the needs of your children while also
meeting your own. I know you have to sacrifice some selfish needs,
but I feel like I haven't even a brain cell to myself. I want to
enjoy this time with my little ones, but much of the time I just
can't believe how hard this is.

Any suggestions? Please don't berate me too badly for yelling. I'm
hard enough on myself and am coming here for help.

Andrea




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ann and Eric Yates

Oh Andrea,
I remember it well!
My three kids are now, 11, 9 and 8.
It was very hard for me when they were all toddlers, and two were in diapers. My middle son was a terror, and I had no idea what to do with him :)
And I had a husband coming home each night. There were a few days I met him at the door with my car keys, and just took a drive when he got home. I only went for a short time, maybe half and hour, but as you probably know well, even that can help.

I too care about our belongings (furniture, house) We have a some gorgeous furniture from my parents, and an equally beautiful house.
The kids have always been taught to be respectful of the things we have, but when accidents happen, they are just that....accidents. Some things we put in the attic when the kids were younger. Some we haven't even brought out yet! But, mostly we try to balance it all.
I do talk to them about picking up and putting away after themselves. With five of us in the house, if we didn't do that, we would be knee deep in stuff, and we wouldn't be able to find anything. I personally can't live that way either.
Having said all that, we have art supplies all over our kitchen counter, that keep blowing on the floor from the open widows. We also have art supplies on a table in the living room where my daughter has been painting. The kitchen itself is a mess from dinner...bad me! But I'll get to it in the morning. lol
The kids rooms are in various states at different times.. Sometimes a complete disaster while they are busy with something...like creating lego vehicles, and when that phase is over, then we go through getting reorganized. They don't like the picking up, but they do love it when their rooms are organized where they find things again.

I think there is a balance you have to find. Some mess, some sanity. Forgive yourself more...this is a hard time. But remember that ultimately the kids are the most important. Climbing into a hugely messy bed together and reading books will be much more satisfying if you allow it to be.

Remember that explaining instead of yelling usually works better. Kids like to be helpful to their Mommies. They can be great helpers if you explain how important they are to you and what you are doing at the time. And mean it...don't just make it up.

If you do have an anger management problem, then kudos to you for accepting that and looking for help. It is hard to unlearn coping techniques that we learn from our parents, but you can make better choices. If you do lose your temper, you can apologize! We are all human, and we all try our best.

It does get easier as they get older, but do try to enjoy the small ages.
There are wonderful cuddly times...take advantage of all of them!
Ann



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<I don't consider myself a "neat freak" by any stretch of the
imagination, but I am ultimately bothered by clutter(can't relax in
it after so many hours) and I do care about taking care of things,
especially since we truly don't have the money to replace things.
I'm very bothered when my kids (including my 10 year old
stepdaughter) take out the art supplies or some other game or puzzle
and then when they are ready to do something else, just leave them--
on the table, the floor, their beds--wherever and often with the
caps off the markers, the puzzle pieces broken or lost or mixed with
the other puzzles etc... I've tried just picking them all up
myself, but that doesn't work. With this many kids and noone to
help me (my husband is working in Portland and we see him only on
weekends, IF he can make it being a contractor.), I find I truly
can't keep up with it. I've even tried to just let go of my need
for order, but there is also the problem of keeping the baby from
eating these things. It is a real hazard. I also try designating a
space for play with small things or art supplies, but they forget
and sometimes, they just plain ignore me. I wind up either yelling
at them or withholding some other treat in order to "manipulate"
them into picking up after themselves.>>>

Sounds like you are feeling really overwhelmed.

I have a couple of practical suggestions. One thing that I do when I want to
yell is hug Jayn or blow a zerbil (raspberry) onto her instead. We then end
up giggling, and the problem tends to become a lot smaller.

Perhaps you could try getting some occasional help in tidying from an
outside source - a mother's helper, a local teen intermittently, or perhaps
you could actually employ your daughter for a specific task for a specific
time frame. I would suggest that this be outside of any allowance that she
already receives. I think it could be tough for her to be seen as the
"mature" child, and expected to take on caretaking of the other children or
their messes - after all she had no choice in the matter of acquiring
siblings presumably.

One thing that some folks use is to spread out a large groundsheet on which
to do art work or puzzles. It can be a quick tidy to pick up the four
corners and presto, at least the appearance of tidy. This assumes that the
children are done with the project and don't mind it getting put aside in a
higgledy piggledy manner.

Rather than trying to baby proof the whole house or restrict the older ones
in their activities to one place, perhaps you can make a "safe room" or
fenced off area for the baby to be mobile and free in. Perhaps this place
could become a sanctuary place for all members of the family with large soft
pillows and no hard edges.

In terms of things on their beds - I would try the idea of picking my
battles initially - obviously the long term idea is to not have any battles.
Their rooms should be their rooms, and not held to the same standard as the
public or shared areas of the house. (Perhaps they are all in your room?
Still that is not the same place where you entertain a visitor for example.)


Since you have recently moved, you may not have yet joined up with your
local homeschool group. I suggest doing so as soon as possible, if for no
other reason than some adult conversations to help restore the brain cells.
More importantly you won't feel as alone as you evidently do. Try
www.nhen.org for local groups.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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J. Stauffer

<<<<<< In any case, I don't want to be that way with my children. I'm not
sure what kind of advice I'm asking for, because there are so many things
that I'd like to work on. I guess I wonder how do you meet the needs of
your children while also meeting your own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Having several small children at the same time in the house is tough for
every mom, at least at times. I have found that the more we are out and
about, even just outside in the yard, the less mess in the house.

We also have ongoing problems about the household clutter. My kids tend to
simply drop whatever they are doing, wherever they are, when something else
crosses their mind. That's fine, no problem. But with 5 kids, it quickly
becomes chaos since I can't keep up with it and drive them where they want
to go, help them with projects, cook, etc..

No one can find what they are looking for, people complain of feeling
claustrophobic, etc.. The kids and I sat down and talked many, many times
about it. They had got to where they began to resent me SEEMINGLY following
them around, asking them to do things to pick up. Kids share a room and
they would fight over picking stuff up someone else left out after they had
just straightened the room, etc..

We talked and talked and talked and tried this and tried that. We finally
settled on a system where each person in the family is responsible for a
zone. The person is asked once per day to go through their "zone" and just
pick up the clutter. It takes about 5 minutes and the kids don't feel like
I am constantly asking them to do something.

We have found the key is talking, reworking, trying to keep everyone happy,
going for concensus, etc.. And it gets easier as the kids get older and can
take another person's point of view easier.

I have carved out a couple of niches per day of time for me. I get up about
an hour or 2 before the kids do so I can spend some time in nature and in
the evenings after the smaller kids are asleep, I will either read or do
yoga.

I also do small things to make myself feel happier about doing things that I
don't really like to do, burn incense, fresh flowers, focus on the tactile
stimulation (hands in soapy water is wonderful, etc.)

Good luck.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrea" <aburlingame@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:44 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Advice, please...(I think)


> Hello, I've read this list off and on for some time and I think
> that this is the first time I've posted. In any case, I'm Andrea
> and I've just moved from Portland, OR to Ocean Park, WA. I'm re-
> married and we have 3 young children, Stella-age 4, Annie-age 3 and
> Evan almost 1, in addition to my 15 yo son, John, who lives with his
> father in Alaska. While I think that I do many things right by my
> children, I'm just not satisfied. I'm actually very frustrated at
> both myself and even my children.
>
> I've been reading this list because I believe in the unschooling
> philosophy, even though some of the ideas are difficult for me.
> While I realize that I need to let go of my need to control things
> so that the kids have more freedom to learn, I'm having a very hard
> time doing that. Here is just one problem I am having:
>
> I don't consider myself a "neat freak" by any stretch of the
> imagination, but I am ultimately bothered by clutter(can't relax in
> it after so many hours) and I do care about taking care of things,
> especially since we truly don't have the money to replace things.
> I'm very bothered when my kids (including my 10 year old
> stepdaughter) take out the art supplies or some other game or puzzle
> and then when they are ready to do something else, just leave them--
> on the table, the floor, their beds--wherever and often with the
> caps off the markers, the puzzle pieces broken or lost or mixed with
> the other puzzles etc... I've tried just picking them all up
> myself, but that doesn't work. With this many kids and noone to
> help me (my husband is working in Portland and we see him only on
> weekends, IF he can make it being a contractor.), I find I truly
> can't keep up with it. I've even tried to just let go of my need
> for order, but there is also the problem of keeping the baby from
> eating these things. It is a real hazard. I also try designating a
> space for play with small things or art supplies, but they forget
> and sometimes, they just plain ignore me. I wind up either yelling
> at them or withholding some other treat in order to "manipulate"
> them into picking up after themselves.
>
> We have other issues, too, that induce my yelling and I'm so ashamed
> of this. I feel I have an anger management problem that I didn't
> really realize the extent of until I had the combined stress of 3
> small children and really desperate finances. I'm reading Anger:
> Wisdom for Cooling the Flames by Thich Nhat Hanh and that's helping
> some, because it truly speaks to so many areas of my life, but I can
> see that controlling my emotions and what I say is so hard for me.
>
> My mom was a screamer, especially after my parents divorced and she
> was on her own with 4 kids, so I know where I learned it, though,
> perhaps it's just my nature. In any case, I don't want to be that
> way with my children. I'm not sure what kind of advice I'm asking
> for, because there are so many things that I'd like to work on. I
> guess I wonder how do you meet the needs of your children while also
> meeting your own. I know you have to sacrifice some selfish needs,
> but I feel like I haven't even a brain cell to myself. I want to
> enjoy this time with my little ones, but much of the time I just
> can't believe how hard this is.
>
> Any suggestions? Please don't berate me too badly for yelling. I'm
> hard enough on myself and am coming here for help.
>
> Andrea
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

Some people are more naturally calm than others. I figure it's that the
biochemical cocktail that makes people feel "last-straw" feelings come slower with
some people and faster with others. With some people, they dissipate easily
(they don't stay mad, they forgive easily) and with others, it lingers a while
and makes it hard for them to eat or sleep or be sorry afterward.

<< I can see that controlling my emotions and what I say is so hard for me.


<<My mom was a screamer >>

So you might have nature and nurture both on that, but it can still be
overcome.

I can't recommend anything as highly as just breathing. The chemicals that
make you want to scream, cry, or possibly hit, can be dispersed if you can slow
your heartrate down so they're not pumped in there as quickly. If you get
oxygen into your blood by breathing deeply and slowly and while you're
concentrating on cleansing your chemical moment and giving yourself time to think more
clearly (it can happen in three seconds, but ten seconds is even better), the
next moment will be better.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/28/04 7:59:44 AM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< Having several small children at the same time in the house is tough for

every mom, at least at times. I have found that the more we are out and

about, even just outside in the yard, the less mess in the house.

>>

Albuquerque has lots of little public parks with playground equipment and
sidewalks winding through them (baby bike trails!) and shade, and when my kids
were little we went two or three times a week. On those days there was more
smiling, and when we got back more sleeping!! Taking the dog is fun if you can
(if you have one <g>) because kids will chase dogs and throw things for dogs
and get tireder (and exercised, but tired is good, with kids, when moms are
thrilled with twenty kid-free minutes).

Sandra

Andrea

Thank you Ann. I appreciate your post. I have a "terror" too, and
she is the middle child as well. I can't go into much right now,
but I imagine that at some point I will want some advice regarding
her as well!

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep trying to find ways to stay
in control and enjoy these little ones too.

Andrea

--- In [email protected], "Ann and Eric Yates"
<hooperck@a...> wrote:
> Oh Andrea,
> I remember it well!
> My three kids are now, 11, 9 and 8.
> It was very hard for me when they were all toddlers, and two were
in diapers. My middle son was a terror, and I had no idea what to
do with him :)
> And I had a husband coming home each night. There were a few days
I met him at the door with my car keys, and just took a drive when
he got home. I only went for a short time, maybe half and hour, but
as you probably know well, even that can help.
>
> I too care about our belongings (furniture, house) We have a some
gorgeous furniture from my parents, and an equally beautiful house.
> The kids have always been taught to be respectful of the things we
have, but when accidents happen, they are just that....accidents.
Some things we put in the attic when the kids were younger. Some we
haven't even brought out yet! But, mostly we try to balance it all.
> I do talk to them about picking up and putting away after
themselves. With five of us in the house, if we didn't do that, we
would be knee deep in stuff, and we wouldn't be able to find
anything. I personally can't live that way either.
> Having said all that, we have art supplies all over our kitchen
counter, that keep blowing on the floor from the open widows. We
also have art supplies on a table in the living room where my
daughter has been painting. The kitchen itself is a mess from
dinner...bad me! But I'll get to it in the morning. lol
> The kids rooms are in various states at different times..
Sometimes a complete disaster while they are busy with
something...like creating lego vehicles, and when that phase is
over, then we go through getting reorganized. They don't like the
picking up, but they do love it when their rooms are organized where
they find things again.
>
> I think there is a balance you have to find. Some mess, some
sanity. Forgive yourself more...this is a hard time. But remember
that ultimately the kids are the most important. Climbing into a
hugely messy bed together and reading books will be much more
satisfying if you allow it to be.
>
> Remember that explaining instead of yelling usually works better.
Kids like to be helpful to their Mommies. They can be great helpers
if you explain how important they are to you and what you are doing
at the time. And mean it...don't just make it up.
>
> If you do have an anger management problem, then kudos to you for
accepting that and looking for help. It is hard to unlearn coping
techniques that we learn from our parents, but you can make better
choices. If you do lose your temper, you can apologize! We are all
human, and we all try our best.
>
> It does get easier as they get older, but do try to enjoy the
small ages.
> There are wonderful cuddly times...take advantage of all of them!
> Ann
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrea

> If you do have an anger management problem, then kudos to you for
accepting that and looking for help. It is hard to unlearn coping
techniques that we learn from our parents, but you can make better
choices. If you do lose your temper, you can apologize! We are all
human, and we all try our best.

Well, here is one thing I can say about myself that is good: I do
apologize and don't stay mad. My stepdaughter has actually told me
that this is one of the things she likes about me. :) Now, if I
could only not get so mad in the first place! :)

Thanks again Ann,
Andrea

Andrea

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> <<<<<< In any case, I don't want to be that way with my children.
I'm not
> sure what kind of advice I'm asking for, because there are so
many things
> that I'd like to work on. I guess I wonder how do you meet the
needs of
> your children while also meeting your own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Having several small children at the same time in the house is
tough for
> every mom, at least at times. I have found that the more we are
out and
> about, even just outside in the yard, the less mess in the house.

Yes, this is true for us also. And we are lucky that right now we
are living within walking distance of the Pacific Ocean and a huge,
sandy beach! Funny, I just realized that I posted my original post
after 3 days of rain. We've been stuck in the house a bit.

We finally
> settled on a system where each person in the family is responsible
for a
> zone. The person is asked once per day to go through their "zone"
and just
> pick up the clutter. It takes about 5 minutes and the kids don't
feel like
> I am constantly asking them to do something.

I like this idea, especially if I also try a family meeting(which I
haven't actually tried yet, because of their ages) to discuss this.
Maybe if they had more say in what "zone" they would clean up, they
would be more willing to take part when the time comes. (of course
their tasks would be age-appropriate, and I'd help them.)

> We have found the key is talking, reworking, trying to keep
everyone happy,
> going for concensus, etc.. And it gets easier as the kids get
older and can
> take another person's point of view easier.

yes, this is what I'd like...I guess I just need to be patient
(understatement of the year! :))

> I have carved out a couple of niches per day of time for me. I
get up about
> an hour or 2 before the kids do so I can spend some time in nature
and in
> the evenings after the smaller kids are asleep, I will either read
or do
> yoga.

Evenings are my time, for sure, at least when the baby lets them
be! Still, I'm aware that more sleep might be in order, too!

> I also do small things to make myself feel happier about doing
things that I
> don't really like to do, burn incense, fresh flowers, focus on the
tactile
> stimulation (hands in soapy water is wonderful, etc.)

Good ideas...I will think about some ways to do this myself more
than I do.
>
Thank you for your help.
~Andrea

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrea" <aburlingame@c...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 8:44 PM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Advice, please...(I think)
>
>
> > Hello, I've read this list off and on for some time and I think
> > that this is the first time I've posted. In any case, I'm Andrea
> > and I've just moved from Portland, OR to Ocean Park, WA. I'm re-
> > married and we have 3 young children, Stella-age 4, Annie-age 3
and
> > Evan almost 1, in addition to my 15 yo son, John, who lives with
his
> > father in Alaska. While I think that I do many things right by
my
> > children, I'm just not satisfied. I'm actually very frustrated
at
> > both myself and even my children.
> >
> > I've been reading this list because I believe in the unschooling
> > philosophy, even though some of the ideas are difficult for me.
> > While I realize that I need to let go of my need to control
things
> > so that the kids have more freedom to learn, I'm having a very
hard
> > time doing that. Here is just one problem I am having:
> >
> > I don't consider myself a "neat freak" by any stretch of the
> > imagination, but I am ultimately bothered by clutter(can't relax
in
> > it after so many hours) and I do care about taking care of
things,
> > especially since we truly don't have the money to replace things.
> > I'm very bothered when my kids (including my 10 year old
> > stepdaughter) take out the art supplies or some other game or
puzzle
> > and then when they are ready to do something else, just leave
them--
> > on the table, the floor, their beds--wherever and often with the
> > caps off the markers, the puzzle pieces broken or lost or mixed
with
> > the other puzzles etc... I've tried just picking them all up
> > myself, but that doesn't work. With this many kids and noone to
> > help me (my husband is working in Portland and we see him only on
> > weekends, IF he can make it being a contractor.), I find I truly
> > can't keep up with it. I've even tried to just let go of my need
> > for order, but there is also the problem of keeping the baby from
> > eating these things. It is a real hazard. I also try
designating a
> > space for play with small things or art supplies, but they forget
> > and sometimes, they just plain ignore me. I wind up either
yelling
> > at them or withholding some other treat in order to "manipulate"
> > them into picking up after themselves.
> >
> > We have other issues, too, that induce my yelling and I'm so
ashamed
> > of this. I feel I have an anger management problem that I didn't
> > really realize the extent of until I had the combined stress of 3
> > small children and really desperate finances. I'm reading Anger:
> > Wisdom for Cooling the Flames by Thich Nhat Hanh and that's
helping
> > some, because it truly speaks to so many areas of my life, but I
can
> > see that controlling my emotions and what I say is so hard for
me.
> >
> > My mom was a screamer, especially after my parents divorced and
she
> > was on her own with 4 kids, so I know where I learned it, though,
> > perhaps it's just my nature. In any case, I don't want to be
that
> > way with my children. I'm not sure what kind of advice I'm
asking
> > for, because there are so many things that I'd like to work on.
I
> > guess I wonder how do you meet the needs of your children while
also
> > meeting your own. I know you have to sacrifice some selfish
needs,
> > but I feel like I haven't even a brain cell to myself. I want to
> > enjoy this time with my little ones, but much of the time I just
> > can't believe how hard this is.
> >
> > Any suggestions? Please don't berate me too badly for yelling.
I'm
> > hard enough on myself and am coming here for help.
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

[email protected]

[this was intended for the whole list but went astray]


----- Original Message -----

From: <SandraDodd@...>


>

> If they were behaving to improve the effect on them, THAT would be

> egocentric, I think.

>

> << (ie: If mom's feeling happy, she won't yell.) >>

>

> That wouldn't be empathy, that would be self-protection.


I agree with this. And I know they are too young to really understand my
problems. It is why I feel so badly about all my yelling and haranguing. I'm
trying to learn ways to control my emotions and my mouth! I'm aware that much
of my frustration is with myself, which makes it even sadder that I am yelling
at them. It feels like a vicious cycle and I'm trying to break it.




> The kinder you are to them when they're tired and hungry and frustrated,
the

> kinder they will be to you when you show the same human needs. They're
not

> old enough, though, to really understand, and even if sometimes they show a

> bit of beginning to understand it, remember that you're 20 or 30 years
older,

> and that you're the one who had children.


Yes, I am 34 years older than the 4 yo, and I sometimes act like a 2 year
old. Not always, but it goes in spurts and lately I've been losing it. I want
so badly to go through a whole day without losing it. I really need a break,
too, but I just can't have that right now. Our circumstances don't allow for
it. Some habits have been getting stronger. Any suggestions for how to catch
yourself BEFORE you lose it. I've actually been considering the old rubber
band on the wrist trick, not that I've ever done that before. I know I need to
breathe, but there is this point that I sometimes move beyond and then it's
too late. Instead of walking around, and breathing in a calm way, I wind up
yelling, slamming things around, including the front door when I FINALLY go
outside to regain my composure. Sometimes I just "melt into a puddle of tears"
too. I hate all of this.


> -=-I do have moments when I

>

> am being very mindful in my interactions with my children, where I

>

> feel true compassion for them and remember that they are young and

>

> learning, and my love for them flows easily and abundantly. At

>

> those times, I can more easily figure out what they need and I am

>

> more creative in my efforts to help them. I just wish I could be

>

> that mindful and peaceful more often.

>

> -=-

>

> I LOVE THAT! You said it so lightly and clearly.

>

> And it's useful that you said "more often" instead of "all the time."

>

> When people aim for perfection, sometimes they give up in frustration at
75%,

> or even 90%, instead of seeing the huge good they HAVE done.


I am one of the people who tend towards this. People who know me well say I
am a good mother and get frustrated when I tell them how bad I am at this, but
I am just not satisfied at all, and they don't get to see me lose it either.
Still, I know that I need to keep striving even when I feel I have lapsed.


> -=-Sarah is very helpful, actually, because she plays with the girls (3

>

> and 4 yo) so much, but I don't want to take advantage of her for the

>

> very reasons you mention. -=-

>

> That's another good reason to get an older child in. It shouldn't be
Sarah's

> sole job, and if you got friends a little older than she is to help,
playing

> with the little girls would be new and different (and more fun for Sarah
too).


I'd like to do this, but I truly cannot afford to, nor do I know anyone in
this remote small community yet. Mostly retirees living full time here, as it
is a vacation spot. Sarah knows that she can go into her room or say no to the
girls anytime, and that I support her in that. Just yesterday that came up
when my 4 yo wouldn't leave her alone in her room. I really don't ask much
from her, but she is a generous big sister. It is easy for me to help her when
she needs it.


> -=- When I ask her to help me

>

> tidy her room for instance, she answers, "No. I'm playing with

>

> Sarah" in a really snotty voice. This really ticks me off

>

> sometimes. -=-

>

> The "snotty voice" is sad, but how is your tone of voice when you ask her?


Actually, this is part of why I'm so frustrated. I cannot think of a time
that I use an ugly voice or a demanding tone when I ask them for help the first
time. I hear myself saying, "Hey guys, lets pick up this room so we can do
something else, or so you can find your things when you want to use them the
next time" or whatever. I try to be light and fun. It works if there is
something immediately in store for them when we finish, but not very often otherwise.
I finally end up begging or yelling or something else, but it doesn't start
that way.




> And if one of your problems is feeling too crowded and overwhelmed, maybe
you

> should be glad of times when she's playing with someone else, and clean her
roo

> m yourself, in peace, breathing deeply.


I am! I truly am, but only when the baby isn't yelling, or Annie isn't
needing something. But that is nice when I can just do that.


> Please look at some of the things here. It has made lots of lives easy to

> reconsider "chores": http://sandradodd.com/chores

> (Most of that is other people's writing, not mine.)


Thank you! I will take a look.



> -=-My natural tendency

>

> is to nag them about taking care of their things, and to put

>

> everything in it's place again. :) -=-

>

> Sometimes this teaches kids not to take things out. Sometimes a mother
who

> says ger kids are bored and don't want to do anything forget to mention
that

> the cost of them doing something is a major cleanup, so they gave up. If
you

> see the art as a valuable part of their learning, maybe you should be
willing

> to clean up after it entirely. Part of the glory of unschooling is that we

> don't end up with hours and hours of "teacher duty," but maybe part of

> unschooling for the parents should be recognition that there still is work
to do to

> provide the kids with "a clean canvas" (someone used that phrase at

> unschooling.com, I think, and I love it).


I like that too, and that's actually what I'm thinking of when I clean their
stuff up for them, which I do very often. I've backed way off of always
expecting them (especially the little ones) to do more, but I just can't do it all.
I appreciate what you are saying, though. I think that much of this I know,
but am having trouble implementing in our home. Do you understand what I
mean? I guess I have to just keeping reading and keep trying to change how I
feel about and react to these issues.


Thanks so much for your insight and help.


Andrea

[email protected]

[and one more...]


----- Original Message -----

From: <SandraDodd@...>

To: <aburlingame@...>

Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 9:31 AM

Subject: Re: Advice, please...(I think)



>

> Was the carpet white before you moved there?


Ugh...Yes.


> I'm mystified when people with young children have (or even pass over)

white

> carpet.


Me too! Yesterday I went out to the patio and got this long scrap of

remnant carpeting that was just about the length and width of the hallway

and laid it down in the hallway, since it is such a high traffic area and it

was starting to get stains. The remnant is reallystained, has a cut out

patch and is basically UGLY, but now I don't have to fret so much over that

area of the house! A victory!


> -=-I just couldn't stand that clean and dirty clothes were left all

>

> over the room, along with puzzle pieces-=-

>

> We kept puzzles in public rooms, and they were worked on mom-cleaned

> floorspace, or on a table, and admired when they were finished, and put

away. We

> still have the baby puzzles Kirby and Marty did, because maintaining them

was a

> priority. We have some wooden tray puzzles and there is one piece missing

from

> one, which has always baffled us. It must've falling in the trash the

first

> week we had it.

>

> But the point is, puzzles can and maybe should be treated like valuable

> things, not mixed with clothes and books and other puzzles.


You know, this is exactly how we treated puzzles in our old house in

Portland. They were in the playroom off the kitchen on a high shelf, and I

happily got them down for them to play and helped them put it away when they

were finished. This house is sort of half finished and doesn't have alot of

shelving. Also, I've been doing alot of reading on the unschooling

discussion list, and I got the idea that maybe that was hampering their

freedom and creativity to keep things put away like that, so I have been

playing around with the idea of giving them full access to their things all

the time. I now think I need to wait until they are older and that what I

was doing before is better for us. In fact, early this morning I talked to

my husband on the phone, and he asked me if there was anything I wanted him

to bring out here when he comes this weekend. I told him to please bring

materials to build shelves out in the patio area. He agreed that was a good

idea and also said that he wants to work with me to get the patio area

cleaned up and more usable! I'm very excited about this. This will do so

much to make things better here for everyone.


> Holly bought a My Little Pony puzzle at a thrift store the other day, and

it

> was pretty wonderful that there were TWO in there. Same artists, same

colors,

> but I guess whoever gave it to the thrift store had lost or destroyed the

> other box. For her at 12, it was really extra fun.


My kids love finding puzzles at thrift stores and we also have on occasion

gotten one with more than one puzzle in it. Great fun!


> Can library books have a cardboard box or a basket where they live, in a

> public room?


Actually, a couple of days ago, I "reinstated" the book box that we used at

our old house (it is a big wicker box I got at a thrift store and was full

of stuff from the move up until then), and it has already been helpful.

It's funny how happy THEY were to have it back! It really does help to make

things child-friendly, doesn't it.


> Maybe the kids' bedroom should be just for clothes and dolls and things

> without tiny parts.


Yes, which AGAIN, is exactly how it was at the old house! I think I may be

discovering the biggest reason for the recent extreme problems around

here...hmmm...Time to start getting down to basics again, I think! haha...

Thanks so much, Sandra!

Jennifer

>Any suggestions for how to catch
>yourself BEFORE you lose it. Sometimes I just "melt into a puddle
>of tears"


Oh Andrea,

I completely understand this. I'm reading this thread starting
here, so forgive me if some of this has already been said.

When my husband is out of town, I can count on feeling this way
several times a week. I feel very alone sometimes and get
overwhelmed easily with anything, not just the kids and chores. I
cried last week because my grandmother told me I had been pulling up
newborn flowers and had let three weeds grow into healthy, thriving
bushes. I had no clue what was what. But it sent me into a
tailspin!

When I get overwhelmed with the kids and feel like I could burn the
house down or put us all out of our misery, I just have to stop. I
don't speak, I don't move. I just stand still. If I can't settle
down enough to breathe, I run to the bathroom. Then I shut the door
and plunge the shit out of the toilet! Usually, there's not even
shit in the toilet but for some reason, it really helps. It's
amazing sometimes how much energy you can spend plunging a toilet!
Sometimes I cry when I do it, but usually I'm so focused, I forget
about anything but how tired it makes me. By the time I'm done, I'm
usually over whatever was happening enough to see clearly, or
clearly enough anyway, to remember my breathing techniques, if
nothing else. And hey, with a house full of kids, it's probably
saving me a lot of money in plumbing bills, right!?!

It takes practice, whatever you choose as your outlet, but it won't
take long to learn to stop before you freak out. You'll stumble
many times and wonder how your kids will ever grow up to be sane,
much less alive, but eventually, it will get better. You'll find
that the little things start to roll off your back and after a
while, the big things will be manageable. I don't think that the
urge to lose it here and there ever goes away, but I don't think
that matters really. It's what you do with the urge that matters.

Maybe your toilets just need a good plunging!
Jennifer

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/28/04 6:00:00 PM, jmcseals@... writes:

<< don't think that the

urge to lose it here and there ever goes away, but I don't think

that matters really. It's what you do with the urge that matters. >>

I don't have the urge to lose it. It took years of remembering to breathe,
though, and then it became automatic. If I'm getting stressed one of my kids
will say "Breathe." In a nice voice. For good reason. The way we used to
remind them if they were hurt or angry. "Breathe."

"Plunging" is what really furious or despondent people have been known to do
with knives and off bridges. It's not the best thing, generally, to be
recommending. Maybe it's more like hitting a punching bag or running.

Sandra

Jennifer

> I don't have the urge to lose it.

I'm amazed! I'm mean that with all sincerity, too. I honestly
haven't ever even heard of anyone who didn't think about losing it
every once in a while. Not as if they were going to, but wanted
to. Guess there's something to look forward to! :)

> "Plunging" is what really furious or despondent people have been
known to do
> with knives and off bridges. It's not the best thing, generally,
to be
> recommending. Maybe it's more like hitting a punching bag or
running.
>
> Sandra

I don't get that. Are you saying that literally plunging a toilet
is different than running or hitting a punching bag? I'm not clear
on how you meant that. If so, how is plunging a toilet any
different than hitting a punching bag? If not, why would running be
a bad thing? Couldn't running then, be known as what people do when
they take off and abandon their kids? I'm not trying to be a jerk,
I really am lost on this one and am interested in hearing your
clarification.

Jennifer

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/28/04 6:36:55 PM, jmcseals@... writes:

<< I'm amazed! I'm mean that with all sincerity, too. I honestly

haven't ever even heard of anyone who didn't think about losing it

every once in a while. >>

I used to!

I yelled last week about something, but I knew I was doing it, it was quick,
it was over, I didn't pat myself on the back or justify it.

"The urge to lose it" may not be what you mean to say. <g>

-=-I don't get that. Are you saying that literally plunging a toilet

is different than running or hitting a punching bag? -=-

No, I think it's the same. And the same (physically, physiologically) as
stabbing someone or killing oneself. I think it's action instead of
inaction/breathing.

It doesn't help a person learn to NOT have the urge to act/move/react.

If someone wants help to learn to deal calmly with situations, recommending
hitting things or running or plunging toilets doesn't seem to me to be the best
longterm recommendation. Doing something strenuous is a way to dissipate
adrenaline (to wear yourself out) and one of the side effects of the activity is
that you breathe. The oxygen makes a difference.

When little children are involved, the mom can't always safely or practically
go for a run, or hit things. And if the trick is to hit (or plunge, or
clean in a fury, or anything in a fury), the child is in more danger than if the
tricks the mom uses are to be still for long enough to breathe the deepest
possible breath, and to let it out slowly.

That keeps the mom where the child is, and gives her a tool to use in a
meeting, when CPS is at the door, when a neighbor hits a child, when on a witness
stand... places without punching bags or toilets.

Sandra

Ann and Eric Yates

Andrea if you haven't already read "The Spirited Child", then you should think about doing that.
It really helped me learn to think about my son in a positive light! Helped alot...didn't change him, but it changed my way of thinking! Very helpful.
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrea
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 2:10 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Advice, please...(I think)


Thank you Ann. I appreciate your post. I have a "terror" too, and
she is the middle child as well. I can't go into much right now,
but I imagine that at some point I will want some advice regarding
her as well!

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll keep trying to find ways to stay
in control and enjoy these little ones too.

Andrea

--- In [email protected], "Ann and Eric Yates"
<hooperck@a...> wrote:
> Oh Andrea,
> I remember it well!
> My three kids are now, 11, 9 and 8.
> It was very hard for me when they were all toddlers, and two were
in diapers. My middle son was a terror, and I had no idea what to
do with him :)
> And I had a husband coming home each night. There were a few days
I met him at the door with my car keys, and just took a drive when
he got home. I only went for a short time, maybe half and hour, but
as you probably know well, even that can help.
>
> I too care about our belongings (furniture, house) We have a some
gorgeous furniture from my parents, and an equally beautiful house.
> The kids have always been taught to be respectful of the things we
have, but when accidents happen, they are just that....accidents.
Some things we put in the attic when the kids were younger. Some we
haven't even brought out yet! But, mostly we try to balance it all.
> I do talk to them about picking up and putting away after
themselves. With five of us in the house, if we didn't do that, we
would be knee deep in stuff, and we wouldn't be able to find
anything. I personally can't live that way either.
> Having said all that, we have art supplies all over our kitchen
counter, that keep blowing on the floor from the open widows. We
also have art supplies on a table in the living room where my
daughter has been painting. The kitchen itself is a mess from
dinner...bad me! But I'll get to it in the morning. lol
> The kids rooms are in various states at different times..
Sometimes a complete disaster while they are busy with
something...like creating lego vehicles, and when that phase is
over, then we go through getting reorganized. They don't like the
picking up, but they do love it when their rooms are organized where
they find things again.
>
> I think there is a balance you have to find. Some mess, some
sanity. Forgive yourself more...this is a hard time. But remember
that ultimately the kids are the most important. Climbing into a
hugely messy bed together and reading books will be much more
satisfying if you allow it to be.
>
> Remember that explaining instead of yelling usually works better.
Kids like to be helpful to their Mommies. They can be great helpers
if you explain how important they are to you and what you are doing
at the time. And mean it...don't just make it up.
>
> If you do have an anger management problem, then kudos to you for
accepting that and looking for help. It is hard to unlearn coping
techniques that we learn from our parents, but you can make better
choices. If you do lose your temper, you can apologize! We are all
human, and we all try our best.
>
> It does get easier as they get older, but do try to enjoy the
small ages.
> There are wonderful cuddly times...take advantage of all of them!
> Ann
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

>People who know me well say I
>am a good mother and get frustrated when I tell them how bad I am at this,
but
>I am just not satisfied at all, and they don't get to see me lose it
either.

Most people seem to control themselves when there are witnesses. Maybe you
could picture someone from DHS sitting in the corner of the room when you
are frustrated. That might keep you on your toes. ;0)

Angela
game-enthusiast@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer

> "The urge to lose it" may not be what you mean to say. <g>

Ah, I see. I didn't necessarily mean it in only a physical way. I
was including yelling, banging things around, saying things you
don't mean, as well as feeling like you could rip someone's hair
out, etc. Or, in my mind I was, I suppose. <g> Gotta remember
everyone else isn't in my mind all the time. <bg>

> No, I think it's the same. And the same (physically,
physiologically) as stabbing someone or killing oneself. I think
>it's action instead of inaction/breathing.
>
> It doesn't help a person learn to NOT have the urge to
act/move/react.
>
> If someone wants help to learn to deal calmly with situations,
recommending hitting things or running or plunging toilets doesn't
seem to me to be the best longterm recommendation.

I can agree with that. What I understood Andrea to say was that
there are times when she can't seem to just stop and breathe. I can
see where my advice wouldn't achieve the desired *longterm* effect.
In my own experience, I've had times when I actually feared that if
I didn't remove myself and let go of some of the energy, I would do
something or say something I would regret. I've done it before. I
used to be a spanker. I haven't spanked my kids since we had a
spanking discussion here last year and if I'm not mistaken, someone
actually used the pillow example. Punching or screaming into a
pillow, I think. I was having a terrible time with the plumbing and
one day noticed how relieving it was to plunge it. (At that time
the anger stemmed from the clogged toilet.) I find I rarely get
that angry and am unable to just stop and breathe but I still head
to the bathroom once in a while.

I made the suggestion because it sounded like stopping and breathing
wasn't working for her and she needed another outlet. So, for a
short-term resolution, I think finding an outlet for the
energy/anger/etc. is better than having the outlet be your child.
What would you say to the person who feels so overwhelmed, angry, or
frustrated that they begin to have panic attacks and literally feel
as if they were going to explode? For someone new to the thoughts
of unschooling, not to mention putting it into practice, who has
spanked and yelled throughout their journey as parents? *I* think
sometimes, in those few situations, leaving the room, shouting into
a pillow or plunging a toilet is safer than the learned and
ingrained response of lashing out at the child. I wasn't suggesting
plunging a toilet as a longterm solution, but as a way to get
through a horrible moment when what you *know* you should be doing
isn't working.

I'm really interested in hearing thoughts on this. I had never
really considered the road-block plunging a toilet, or any of the
other examples, might be to attaining peaceful reactions to
stressful situations. I saw it more as a path leading to the road
(of inaction/breathing). I hope that makes sense.

This is very interesting.

Jennifer

Andrea

I have to agree with Sandra when it comes to doing something
physical to relieve stress and tension. I already do this enough,
and I'm mortified to say that it is only escalating--which is why I
came to this list for help. Used to be I'd yell in a towel, or slam
a door, or punch a pillow, but more and more I do things like throw
things down or against the wall, whack my hairbrush against the wall
in the bathroom, break things, and I've even been known to bite
myself on the wrist. This is embarrasing to admit for sure, but I
felt obligated to share what I know of this kind of release and how
it doesn't help. Sure, I get the gratification of that "release",
but I'm drained afterwards, and nothing changes in the long run. It
just seems to get worse.

I'm currently reading Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames by
Vietnamese Buddhist Monk, Thich Nhat Hanh. In it he speaks of
the "Danger of Venting", and what he said really struck me. He
says, among other things, that:

"Anger needs energy to manifest. When you try to vent it by using
all your might to hit something or pound you pillow, half an hour
later, you will be exhausted. Because you are exhausted, you will
have no energy left to feed your anger. You may think that anger is
no longer there, but that's not true; you are simply too tired to
be angry."

Also, (and he mentions a New York Times article about some research
supporting this) he says:

"While you pound the pillow, you are not calming or reducing your
anger--you are REHEARSING it." (Emphasis mine.) "If you practice
hitting a pillow everyday, then the seed of anger in you will grow
everyday. And someday, when you meet the person who made you angry,
you may practice what you have learned...It is dangerous...(By
rehearsing your anger,)Instead of lessening your violence and anger,
you become more violent and angry."

I intuitively know this is the truth based on my own experience. I
am trying to learn to BREATHE. I truly appreciate all the advice
and kind words I am reading, but I have to say that other than
relating to the "plunging" idea and feeling some true empathy, it
isn't something I'm considering.

Andrea



> -=-I don't get that. Are you saying that literally plunging a
toilet
>
> is different than running or hitting a punching bag? -=-
>
> No, I think it's the same. And the same (physically,
physiologically) as
> stabbing someone or killing oneself. I think it's action instead
of
> inaction/breathing.
>
> It doesn't help a person learn to NOT have the urge to
act/move/react.
>
> If someone wants help to learn to deal calmly with situations,
recommending
> hitting things or running or plunging toilets doesn't seem to me
to be the best
> longterm recommendation. Doing something strenuous is a way to
dissipate
> adrenaline (to wear yourself out) and one of the side effects of
the activity is
> that you breathe. The oxygen makes a difference.
>
> When little children are involved, the mom can't always safely or
practically
> go for a run, or hit things. And if the trick is to hit (or
plunge, or
> clean in a fury, or anything in a fury), the child is in more
danger than if the
> tricks the mom uses are to be still for long enough to breathe the
deepest
> possible breath, and to let it out slowly.
>
> That keeps the mom where the child is, and gives her a tool to use
in a
> meeting, when CPS is at the door, when a neighbor hits a child,
when on a witness
> stand... places without punching bags or toilets.
>
> Sandra

Andrea

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer"
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:
>
> I can agree with that. What I understood Andrea to say was that
> there are times when she can't seem to just stop and breathe.

This is true; I am having trouble doing that, but I already know
how to vent into a pillow or bang the wall, or even, more
productively to wash the dishes with a vengeance <g>. What I really
want help with is remembering to breathe. In fact, today, I told my
children that I have been struggling to be a calmer Mommy who
doesn't yell at them, and I told them that I don't want to make them
suffer anymore, because their suffering makes me suffer too because
I love them. I asked them to help me by reminding me to breathe
when I seem about to lose control of my temper. They happily agreed
and we have a deal!


I can
> see where my advice wouldn't achieve the desired *longterm*
effect.
> In my own experience, I've had times when I actually feared that
if
> I didn't remove myself and let go of some of the energy, I would
do
> something or say something I would regret. I've done it before.
I
> used to be a spanker.

I have spanked my children before too (never used to--actually did
it in the last few months), and I find that this starts to escalate
too, so I stopped. Doesn't feel right at all to me. Seems like
more self-gratification actually, like how I feel when I break
something. Ick.

> I'm really interested in hearing thoughts on this. I had never
> really considered the road-block plunging a toilet, or any of the
> other examples, might be to attaining peaceful reactions to
> stressful situations. I saw it more as a path leading to the road
> (of inaction/breathing). I hope that makes sense.

I completely understand. Until this week, I didn't get that at
all. I knew something was wrong and I was embarrassed, saddened and
frustrated by my meltdowns, but didn't connect the idea that by
venting I was "rehearsing" my anger, as Thich Nhat Hanh says. (see
my other recent post.)

> This is very interesting.

YES, It really is!


Andrea

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/28/2004 8:58:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
jmcseals@... writes:
What would you say to the person who feels so overwhelmed, angry, or
frustrated that they begin to have panic attacks and literally feel
as if they were going to explode?
-------------

I would say that neither fast, shallow breathing nor breath-holding would
help.

Unless they learn how to slow themselves down, to put the brakes on their
accelerated heartbeat and oncoming adrenaline, they will have other frustration
and panic attacks in the future.

I would say that when they learn how to stop long enough to breathe, the
panic attacks will less frequent for the rest of their lives.

Plunging a toilet seems to be going with the anger.
Breathing is telling the anger "ssssshhhhhhhhh."

My original point was:
If someone's tool is plunging a toilet,
what will they plunge what into if no toilet is handy?

Breath is always with us, no matter where we are.
Breath is life.
Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer

I originally wrote a post, trying to understand what you (Sandra)
were saying about this whole plunging/breathing thing, when it hit
me! I had a real eye opener talking myself through what I had
originally intended to send and in the moments after writing it.

I realized that when I get to the point of having those *urges*,
which either result from a panic attack or cause one, I've already
gone too far. I think now that that may have been what you were
trying to say, Sandra. This might help Andrea as well. Might not.
<g>

This actually happened tonight after reading all these posts. (I
love it when this happens!) I walked in my room and Ethan was
pushing the mattress off my bed to slide down it. I asked him to
help me put it back and not to pull the mattress off my bed and
explained to him why. He left and went back into the living room to
watch tv with the other kids. Chloe came in my room and was playing
on my bed, not a problem but she had taken her diaper off so I was
going to finish the email I was on then get her ready for bed. Too
late. She peed on the bed. While I was getting her dressed and
changing the bed, Hannah walked in and was complaining because
Nicholette wouldn't let her hold the guinea pig. I told her I'd
come help as soon as I was finished putting the sheets on my bed.
Lauren came in upset because Hannah took the guinea pig from her,
which confused me. So Nicholette walks in crying because she
*never* gets to play with the guinea pig because the girls always
have him. Yet, she was holding him in her hands! Next thing, the
phone rings and my husband needs me to look up directions for him
because he's lost and it's snowing so he needs to get out of the
mountains before he gets stuck. While he's on the phone the other
line rings and Chloe comes in crying so he starts griping at me
cause he can't hear and he needs the directions and can't hang on
while I get the other line and what's wrong with Chloe???, she's
screaming so loud it's hurting my ear!

AAAHHHH!!

OK, this is a moment when I start to feel really frustrated and
overwhelmed. Everything is happening all at once, I'm being
summoned and pulled in a million different directions and there's
just not enough of me to go around. I snapped at Chris for not
being more understanding and suddenly this huge wave of knowledge
slammed me in the face. I was actually thinking, albeit after the
fact, about breathing. About what I had just been reading on the
list. About how once I start feeling a panic attack coming, I snap
and there's no time between the last straw and snapping. It's
automatic. I feel like my skull is crushing my brain, literally. I
feel like I'm trapped in a box that is squeezing the breath from my
body. I DO feel the adrenaline, the energy and I can't calm down
unless I release it. I feel really desperate at the moment.

I didn't feel that way tonight but I could sense that it was coming
on. And what I realized is that I was too late! At that point,
I've long passed the time when I should have just stopped and
breathed. (Of course, I really need to in those severe moments,
too, but stick with me here.) Looking back over my night (all of
which happened in less than 10 minutes) I did fine with Ethan. I
should have stopped with Chloe, gotten off the computer and gotten
her ready for bed the moment I saw her on the bed naked. By the
time Hannah came in, I could have handled the guinea pig issue
immediately with all the girls. It would have saved me the
irritation I felt at Lauren and Nicholette and Hannah would have had
her needs met immediately. Problem solved. By the time Chris
called and Chloe started crying, those would have been the only two
things I'd have to worry about. Most likely anyway. <bg> Chris
getting irritated at me is when I should have stopped and breathed.
Just said, 'hang on while I help Chloe' and took a few deep breaths
while I hugged her then got on with getting his directions. The
other phone call could have been returned since I have call waiting
caller ID.

Now that I have had this rediculous revelation...and I say
rediculous because it all seems so basic now that I've had time to
think about it...I realize that rarely do I ever feel that
overwhelmed out of nowhere. I mean, there's usually a build up that
I've ignored or put off until I feel I can't control my breathing.

If the house is a mess, it didn't happen in five minutes. I let it
slowly build up. Had I picked up something everytime I walked by
and saw it out of place, I wouldn't have much to do at the end of
the day. If the kids are all fussy at the same time (like tonight)
I can usually count on the fact that dinner was late and they are
hungry or tired. Or both. Tonight it was tired. THey're usually
in bed by 8:30 sound asleep. It was well after 10, maybe even 11 at
that point.

So Sandra, I understand now. But I think what I missed, and maybe
you didn't quite say it, I don't know..have to go back and check I
guess...is that the time to breathe is in the beginning. Before
everything gets out of hand. There might be an exceptional
circumstance here or there, but usually, if mom feels overwhelmed,
there's been a build up and she just didn't pay attention early
enough to all the signs so she could take care of what needed her
attention and breathe through what she couldn't control.

I hope that makes sense! It's really sad sometimes how something so
simple can be so eye-opening and make you feel so dumb and proud all
at the same time! <sheepish grin>

Jennifer

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/04 12:02:30 AM, jmcseals@... writes:

<< I mean, there's usually a build up that

I've ignored or put off until I feel I can't control my breathing. >>

With me, I rarely get to that high-frustration point unless it's also too
long since I ate protein. Lack of protein gives me a sneaking-up implosive kind
of headache, and things that are easy to handle when I've eaten are NOT easy
if I'm hungry (and salad or fruit or sweets are not going to save me).

Before I went to adult children of alcoholics meetings, when I was 29-33 or
so, I cried really easily. I felt justified in being irritable (various
justifications; I had tricks to defend my bad self). But partly just going there,
partly having Kirby, partly consciously deciding to figure out how to be
better, I moved steadily toward better. Still not perfect, years later, but still
moving.

I remember the day of my first big success. Very calm. I was in a hurry to
be somewhere, had given Kirby a bath (he was tiny, maybe four months?) and he
was out and dressed, I had just about enough time to go, I picked up the baby
bathtub from the kitchen table to pour it out in the sink (two steps away,
like just pick it up and turn) and it folded and spilled, splashed cabinets, me
from the knees down, dishes on a bottom shelf.

I didn't react. No "sunovabitch," no squeal or scream or crying, as I
realized at that moment I would've done in days and years past. I just looked at it
and calmly thought whether I should leave it or clean it and be late. I
wiped it up calmly, and I wasn't very late, and I hadn't had a fit, nor was I even
really sad. I was strangely serene. Not happy/giddy, just quietly
accepting of the fact that I could be that calm that long.

And each next time that was less shocking and inconvenient than that was easy.

-=-There might be an exceptional

circumstance here or there, but usually, if mom feels overwhelmed,

there's been a build up and she just didn't pay attention early

enough to all the signs so she could take care of what needed her

attention and breathe through what she couldn't control.-=-

In my baby bath story, I should've been ready sooner. It doesn't always
happen.

But if people breathe early, they can do it as automatically in a quick
emergency as on a rough moment in a normal day. Practicing on little things, like
"where are the car keys?" makes it easier on the big things.

Tonight I washed Kirby's red costume with his white hood (medieval outfit,
which looks VERY nice on him). He had been out camping but came back to work
tonight and tomorrow, and will go back.

They've both been washed before, but never together. Usually the hood has
been with all whites, and the red tunic with black stuff.

Nope. Pink hood. EEEP.
But I didn't cry or yell. I ran it with Rit dye remover; no help.
Now it's in with bleach.

I have plan B.

In years past, it would have torn me up, and I would've torn things up and
maybe the first person who said anything critical, but any more, the accident is
the worst thing. Used to be my reaction was worse than the actual "spilled
milk," and now when milk spills, I clean it up (after the dog and cat do as
much as they want to do <g>).

Sandra

melissazietlow

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer"
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:
>I realize that rarely do I ever feel that overwhelmed out of
>nowhere. I mean, there's usually a build up that I've ignored or
>put off until I feel I can't control my breathing.
>
> If the house is a mess, it didn't happen in five minutes. I let it
> slowly build up. Had I picked up something everytime I walked by
> and saw it out of place, I wouldn't have much to do at the end of
> the day. If the kids are all fussy at the same time (like tonight)
> I can usually count on the fact that dinner was late and they are
> hungry or tired. Or both. Tonight it was tired. THey're usually
> in bed by 8:30 sound asleep. It was well after 10, maybe even 11 at
> that point.
>
> ...is that the time to breathe is in the beginning. Before
> everything gets out of hand. There might be an exceptional
> circumstance here or there, but usually, if mom feels overwhelmed,
> there's been a build up and she just didn't pay attention early
> enough to all the signs so she could take care of what needed her
> attention and breathe through what she couldn't control.

I am wondering if this 'revelation' can be called a lesson in
mindfulness? I am just begginning to explore the concept and have
started reading Everyday Blessings: The Inner Work of Mindful
Parenting. So far, it is a little lofty for me...

Melissa Z.

Deb Lewis

--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Andrea Burlingame" <aburlingame@...>


> > <salten@c...> wrote:
> > > Andrea,
> > > I think you could benefit greatly from this group:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline/
> >
> > > It is not an unschooling group, although there are some
> unschoolers
> > > there, and some school at homers, and school people, but they all
> > share
> > > the same desire to communicate better with their kids and practice
> > > positive discipline skills.
> > >
> > > You could post this same message there and get some great
> feedback.
> > >
> > > Not that you won't get it here either, it's just that the PP-D
> > group
> > > focuses specifically on this topic.
> > >
> > > Check it out! I am certain that they can help you.
> > >
> > > Jenny

--------
Thank You Jenny. I am familiar with the Positive Discipline books
(right now I have both Positive Discipline for Preschoolers and
Siblings without Rivalry on loan from the library), but I didn't
realize their was a group. I will check it out.

Andrea

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I felt justified in being irritable

Yeh, ain't that the truth. I read a wonderful book called _The Anger
Management Workbook_. I highly recommend it to any one who has anger
issues. It's very brief and to the point. And one of the points is
that we tend to get angry when we are thinking about how easy our
lives should be. I deserve...enough sleep, help with cleaning up,
etc. so I get mad when I don't get it. If you think less about what
you deserve, you don't get mad as often and you start to see things
you couldn't see before.

Andrea, someone mentioned "The Spirited Child", but I would recommend
Kurcinka's other book, "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" as being
more immediately helpful. Both books are similar, so if the bookstore
only had Spritite Child, I'd get it...

--aj

Have a Nice Day!

wow!

That was really helpful to me too. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

My kids have been fighting nonstop for several days, and *I* think its because they've spent too much time with their friends and have forgotten how to treat each other.

I'm overwhelmed too. The way I handled it today was to let my husband handle it. Usually I feel guilty for doing that, but today I decided my urge to "fix it" could wait until the crisis passed. Thats when I did some breathing and pet the cats <grin>.

Now that the crisis has passed, we are going to spend some time together. I'm not sure what all we will do, but something to make life more pleasant.

Kristen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrea

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer"
<jmcseals@m...> wrote:

"OK, this is a moment when I start to feel really frustrated and
overwhelmed. Everything is happening all at once, I'm being
summoned and pulled in a million different directions and there's
just not enough of me to go around."


This is exactly how I feel sometimes, with an (un)healthy dose of
resentment and guilt! I hope that what I'm coming to understand
about dealing with stress helps me in a moment like this. It's one
thing to have a theoretical understanding, and another thing to
actually apply it. I really enjoyed your whole "revelation" post.
Thanks!

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/04 9:30:47 AM, litlrooh@... writes:

<< My kids have been fighting nonstop for several days, and *I* think its
because they've spent too much time with their friends and have forgotten how to
treat each other. >>

Guessing, but maybe they had so much fun with their friends that home seems
bland, and they desire more input, excitement, newness.


That's not unreasonable.

And the way they treat each other won't be "forgotten" so much as it will
naturally change over the years, and you can't expect it to be static at all.

If they're frustrated and acting out, teach them to breathe when they're
angry! And see what you can do to ease their disappointment at not having the
exciting days.

I think time with other kids is a wonderful thing for kids who want it, and
to artificially limit that so that they will "remember how to treat each other"
has dangers.

Sandra