Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] So pissed off right now
Sylvia Toyama
I may be way off the mark, but in reading your post a few things jumped out at me.
***
Which would be great if this guy would understand that HIS IS NOT THE F'IN PARENT. We are. And while he is more than welcome to model behavior he thinks is appropriate and even encourage, he is not supposed to "discipline." Ever. And he tries to do it in front of us sometimes, which would be hysterical if only.. .. I mean honestly, even if we weren't unschooling and trying to be non-coersive and all that, I'd be pretty pissed.
****
It sounds like this has been a problem before. How have you addressed it then, or did you just let slide? Does this friend know how you feel about discipline?
***
Our son was supposed to spend a couple days at this man's house. He camehome because when he refused to take a shower his friend, and I quote, "wouldn't reward that behavior by letting him play video games." Our son,quite resonably, chose to come home rather than deal.
****
okay, again I don't know this guy or your son, but... A man who is not your 8yo son's father insisted your son take a shower. Personally, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable -- no, I'm sure I'd be very uncomfortable -- with this scenario. Something about it just feels inappropriate, especially if your son didn't feel comfortable showering at this friend's home.
I will admit that my 'weird' radar is easily set-off (several incidences of child molestation in my extended family) but for me it's a big, red flag when an man without kids of his own takes a personal interest in a young boy.
****
We have asked him for help in the past with giving our son an outlet for things that are tough with littler sibs around and with over worked parents. We have asked for his help in our home with the mess we have trouble with because of our own habits and having small children. He has repeatedly interpreted that as free license to try and parent us.
****
Well, sure he has! You're talking about a guy who 'helped' raise his younger sibling. You've asked him for 'help' with your bad habits and mess. I can understand where he got the impression you are immature, incapable parents who need his guidance. He probably feels like he's doing your son a favor, given the lack of direction it appears he gets at home (I'm not saying I think it's lack of discipline, just that I can see where he would think that).
****
I commented that the 8 year old can be rough with his younger sibs. It happens. I wasn't asking for advice, I wasn't doing anything but commenting. He asks, "And what consequences are there for doing that?" In this amazingly condecending tone like, "And didn't you do anything about it?"
***
Have you told him what your method is, or just left him to believe you are 'doing nothing' about discipline? It sounds to me like the friend believes you should be "doing more."
***
Who in their right mind talks to a parent that way?
****
Someone who thinks you are a negligent parent, in need of his guidance. Again, have you told him how you feel? If not, is it because you're concerned you might lose him as a support system? Of course, the next question should be whether he is the kind of support system you want?
***
He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt that for a moment.
****
IME, the world is full of well-meaning 'good' folks whose motives in befriending others are sometimes more about 'helping' them to see what's right, and less about genuine friendship. I would really look closely at whether or not this guy is being a good support system for you and what his opinion of your parenting says to your son.
If it were my kid, I'd be seeing red flags all over this situation, and probably find some way to limit his influence.
Syl
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***
Which would be great if this guy would understand that HIS IS NOT THE F'IN PARENT. We are. And while he is more than welcome to model behavior he thinks is appropriate and even encourage, he is not supposed to "discipline." Ever. And he tries to do it in front of us sometimes, which would be hysterical if only.. .. I mean honestly, even if we weren't unschooling and trying to be non-coersive and all that, I'd be pretty pissed.
****
It sounds like this has been a problem before. How have you addressed it then, or did you just let slide? Does this friend know how you feel about discipline?
***
Our son was supposed to spend a couple days at this man's house. He camehome because when he refused to take a shower his friend, and I quote, "wouldn't reward that behavior by letting him play video games." Our son,quite resonably, chose to come home rather than deal.
****
okay, again I don't know this guy or your son, but... A man who is not your 8yo son's father insisted your son take a shower. Personally, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable -- no, I'm sure I'd be very uncomfortable -- with this scenario. Something about it just feels inappropriate, especially if your son didn't feel comfortable showering at this friend's home.
I will admit that my 'weird' radar is easily set-off (several incidences of child molestation in my extended family) but for me it's a big, red flag when an man without kids of his own takes a personal interest in a young boy.
****
We have asked him for help in the past with giving our son an outlet for things that are tough with littler sibs around and with over worked parents. We have asked for his help in our home with the mess we have trouble with because of our own habits and having small children. He has repeatedly interpreted that as free license to try and parent us.
****
Well, sure he has! You're talking about a guy who 'helped' raise his younger sibling. You've asked him for 'help' with your bad habits and mess. I can understand where he got the impression you are immature, incapable parents who need his guidance. He probably feels like he's doing your son a favor, given the lack of direction it appears he gets at home (I'm not saying I think it's lack of discipline, just that I can see where he would think that).
****
I commented that the 8 year old can be rough with his younger sibs. It happens. I wasn't asking for advice, I wasn't doing anything but commenting. He asks, "And what consequences are there for doing that?" In this amazingly condecending tone like, "And didn't you do anything about it?"
***
Have you told him what your method is, or just left him to believe you are 'doing nothing' about discipline? It sounds to me like the friend believes you should be "doing more."
***
Who in their right mind talks to a parent that way?
****
Someone who thinks you are a negligent parent, in need of his guidance. Again, have you told him how you feel? If not, is it because you're concerned you might lose him as a support system? Of course, the next question should be whether he is the kind of support system you want?
***
He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt that for a moment.
****
IME, the world is full of well-meaning 'good' folks whose motives in befriending others are sometimes more about 'helping' them to see what's right, and less about genuine friendship. I would really look closely at whether or not this guy is being a good support system for you and what his opinion of your parenting says to your son.
If it were my kid, I'd be seeing red flags all over this situation, and probably find some way to limit his influence.
Syl
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Elizabeth Hill
** He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt
that for a moment. But it's amazing to see this sort of thing "from the
outside" if you will. I mean the whole thing of wondering if you'd do the
same thing to an adult friend really takes on new meaning here.**
And how good is this guy at dealing with adults? Any more skilled?
My brother is a programmer, so I'm familiar with seeing an adult think
that stimulus-response programming is a fine technique for interacting
with little humans. I'm with you in thinking that it can be quite
insulting.
Could you gift this guy with a book on Zen Buddhism to help him let go
of his attachment to controlling the behavior of others?
Betsy
that for a moment. But it's amazing to see this sort of thing "from the
outside" if you will. I mean the whole thing of wondering if you'd do the
same thing to an adult friend really takes on new meaning here.**
And how good is this guy at dealing with adults? Any more skilled?
My brother is a programmer, so I'm familiar with seeing an adult think
that stimulus-response programming is a fine technique for interacting
with little humans. I'm with you in thinking that it can be quite
insulting.
Could you gift this guy with a book on Zen Buddhism to help him let go
of his attachment to controlling the behavior of others?
Betsy
[email protected]
I'm jumping away from the original topic to talk about the basis for
friendships.
<< IME, the world is full of well-meaning 'good' folks whose motives in
befriending others are sometimes more about 'helping' them to see what's right, and
less about genuine friendship. >>
That's what most of the homeschooling lists and support groups and playgroups
end up being. Either people are trying to help others or they're asking for
help, or they've agreed not to discuss much and just let their kids play
without comparing parenting-belief notes. And that only lasts until one kid
throws sand in the other one's faces.
I was thinking last week about how people (I have too) disparage school
friendships as being just like having friends in prison, as soon as you're gone
you're gone. But there's a photo right here of six of my schoolmates, and
another photo of two former best friends of mine, and Holly got to meet them all
when some of us got together at the request of one who's been living in
Washington for years and wanted to see us.
I really like those people. Some I've kept in contact with. ALL of them,
I've been thrilled if I ran into them, but they're all in Santa Fe and points
north, and I'm in Albuquerque "lately" (for the past 24 years or so). Some of
them I've known since I was seven. We WERE friends outside of school, and
knew each others' families and dogs and cousins.
There are some homeschoolers I'm friends with in and as it concerns
homeschooling. Sometimes when one stops homeschooling, the relationship fades quickly.
Partly, sometimes, it's because they don't want to be reminded of what they
decided against, or they want their kids to bond with the school friends now
and not look back. Sometimes it's just I don't really care about the details
of their lives if their kids are no longer going to be at my house every week
or two or they are going to be talking about school a lot.
So there are relationships built on homeschooling as a mutual "place."
But in the real world of random relationships with neighbors and friends'
friends and former co-workers and all that, sometimes there ARE close and
longterm friendships based on something between the two individuals at an intangible
level. Sometimes it's entirely mutual. Many more friendships, though, in
my experience, are based on need and exchange of services, ideas, assistance,
sympathy, attention, in a more temporary way.
Kirby has some anime friends. What they have in common is an interest in
anime and a shared set of experiences and adventures at Lobo Comics here, and Nan
Desu Con in Denver every year. With some, he has done other things at
other times.
Kirby and Marty have lots of gaming friends. If one of them decided gaming
was stupid and a waste of time and energy, the friendship would probably fade
pretty quickly and without animosity.
Sandra
friendships.
<< IME, the world is full of well-meaning 'good' folks whose motives in
befriending others are sometimes more about 'helping' them to see what's right, and
less about genuine friendship. >>
That's what most of the homeschooling lists and support groups and playgroups
end up being. Either people are trying to help others or they're asking for
help, or they've agreed not to discuss much and just let their kids play
without comparing parenting-belief notes. And that only lasts until one kid
throws sand in the other one's faces.
I was thinking last week about how people (I have too) disparage school
friendships as being just like having friends in prison, as soon as you're gone
you're gone. But there's a photo right here of six of my schoolmates, and
another photo of two former best friends of mine, and Holly got to meet them all
when some of us got together at the request of one who's been living in
Washington for years and wanted to see us.
I really like those people. Some I've kept in contact with. ALL of them,
I've been thrilled if I ran into them, but they're all in Santa Fe and points
north, and I'm in Albuquerque "lately" (for the past 24 years or so). Some of
them I've known since I was seven. We WERE friends outside of school, and
knew each others' families and dogs and cousins.
There are some homeschoolers I'm friends with in and as it concerns
homeschooling. Sometimes when one stops homeschooling, the relationship fades quickly.
Partly, sometimes, it's because they don't want to be reminded of what they
decided against, or they want their kids to bond with the school friends now
and not look back. Sometimes it's just I don't really care about the details
of their lives if their kids are no longer going to be at my house every week
or two or they are going to be talking about school a lot.
So there are relationships built on homeschooling as a mutual "place."
But in the real world of random relationships with neighbors and friends'
friends and former co-workers and all that, sometimes there ARE close and
longterm friendships based on something between the two individuals at an intangible
level. Sometimes it's entirely mutual. Many more friendships, though, in
my experience, are based on need and exchange of services, ideas, assistance,
sympathy, attention, in a more temporary way.
Kirby has some anime friends. What they have in common is an interest in
anime and a shared set of experiences and adventures at Lobo Comics here, and Nan
Desu Con in Denver every year. With some, he has done other things at
other times.
Kirby and Marty have lots of gaming friends. If one of them decided gaming
was stupid and a waste of time and energy, the friendship would probably fade
pretty quickly and without animosity.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/24/2004 12:39:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mina@...
writes:
If only we would see how much easier life would be if we would only do it
"this" way. <<<<<
Right. It's called a Kellyarchy. Life would be SO much easier if everyone
just did it MY way! <G>\
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
If only we would see how much easier life would be if we would only do it
"this" way. <<<<<
Right. It's called a Kellyarchy. Life would be SO much easier if everyone
just did it MY way! <G>\
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/24/04 1:11:17 AM, mina@... writes:
<< He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt
that for a moment. But it's amazing to see this sort of thing "from the
outside" if you will. I mean the whole thing of wondering if you'd do the
same thing to an adult friend really takes on new meaning here. >>
Maybe you could write to him and say that. Things in writing are good, in my
opinion. You can't be interrupted or intimidated while you're writing. He
can't claim you said something you didn't, if it's in writing.
Maybe you could say that he might never have thought of it in those terms,
but you don't want your son to be parented or babysat. You want him to visit,
and be treated as a visitor. You don't want him punished or rewarded, just
treated like a person.
-=-Anyway, the biggest reason I'm so pissed, really, is the effect on their
friendship. It means so much to our son, he's clearly really upset. I think
he'd like to go back over, if not this weekend, then next, as planned. But
this has to be worked out.-=
Sandra
<< He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt
that for a moment. But it's amazing to see this sort of thing "from the
outside" if you will. I mean the whole thing of wondering if you'd do the
same thing to an adult friend really takes on new meaning here. >>
Maybe you could write to him and say that. Things in writing are good, in my
opinion. You can't be interrupted or intimidated while you're writing. He
can't claim you said something you didn't, if it's in writing.
Maybe you could say that he might never have thought of it in those terms,
but you don't want your son to be parented or babysat. You want him to visit,
and be treated as a visitor. You don't want him punished or rewarded, just
treated like a person.
-=-Anyway, the biggest reason I'm so pissed, really, is the effect on their
friendship. It means so much to our son, he's clearly really upset. I think
he'd like to go back over, if not this weekend, then next, as planned. But
this has to be worked out.-=
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/24/04 10:15:20 AM, mina@... writes:
<< He's been our
son's nanny in the past, >>
That changes a lot of things. If he has been in a position of saying "bath
time" before, and of being reward-guy before, it's going to be hard for him to
change that relationship.
-=-It was a matter of not wanting our son to be dirty in/around his bed and
other stuff. Which is fair.-=-
I thought about that too. Some people grew up with and maintain the
tradition of beds being for only freshly-washed humans in clean pajamas. I never did.
I'd rather wash the bedding because i went to bed really grubby than to have
to wash me when I'd rather just crash out that instant.
But when I'm a guest, I'm more aware of keeping the room the way the owner
wants it kept.
Sandra
<< He's been our
son's nanny in the past, >>
That changes a lot of things. If he has been in a position of saying "bath
time" before, and of being reward-guy before, it's going to be hard for him to
change that relationship.
-=-It was a matter of not wanting our son to be dirty in/around his bed and
other stuff. Which is fair.-=-
I thought about that too. Some people grew up with and maintain the
tradition of beds being for only freshly-washed humans in clean pajamas. I never did.
I'd rather wash the bedding because i went to bed really grubby than to have
to wash me when I'd rather just crash out that instant.
But when I'm a guest, I'm more aware of keeping the room the way the owner
wants it kept.
Sandra
[email protected]
I LOVE this advice. Seems to me it would come in handy for lots of
situations!
SandraDodd@... writes:
situations!
SandraDodd@... writes:
> Maybe you could say that he might never have thought of it in those terms,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but you don't want your son to be parented or babysat. You want him to
> visit,
> and be treated as a visitor. You don't want him punished or rewarded, just
> treated like a person.
>
Jennifer Altenbach
<<<***
He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't
doubt that for a moment.
****
IME, the world is full of well-meaning 'good' folks whose motives in
befriending others are sometimes more about 'helping' them to see what's
right, and less about genuine friendship. I would really look closely
at whether or not this guy is being a good support system for you and
what his opinion of your parenting says to your son.
If it were my kid, I'd be seeing red flags all over this situation, and
probably find some way to limit his influence.
Syl>>>>
I'm glad Sylvia said this. I too heard alarm bells when I read this
story. I would strongly suggest that you check out the book Protecting
the Gift by Gavin De Becker. If you have ANY doubt about this guy, you
need to trust that doubt.
I just fired my long-time babysitter because of one betrayal of trust.
Once I could no longer trust her, it was not possible for me to send my
son to her any more.
Check into YOUR feelings about this man. Then trust them.
Jenny
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He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't
doubt that for a moment.
****
IME, the world is full of well-meaning 'good' folks whose motives in
befriending others are sometimes more about 'helping' them to see what's
right, and less about genuine friendship. I would really look closely
at whether or not this guy is being a good support system for you and
what his opinion of your parenting says to your son.
If it were my kid, I'd be seeing red flags all over this situation, and
probably find some way to limit his influence.
Syl>>>>
I'm glad Sylvia said this. I too heard alarm bells when I read this
story. I would strongly suggest that you check out the book Protecting
the Gift by Gavin De Becker. If you have ANY doubt about this guy, you
need to trust that doubt.
I just fired my long-time babysitter because of one betrayal of trust.
Once I could no longer trust her, it was not possible for me to send my
son to her any more.
Check into YOUR feelings about this man. Then trust them.
Jenny
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[email protected]
In a message dated 5/24/2004 7:41:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mina@...
writes:
-giggle-<<<<
*MY* way, of course!
~Kelly, true queen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
>Right. It's called a Kellyarchy. Life would be SO much easier if everyoneAh, but is that YOUR Kelly or MY Kelly? Which is the One True (TM) Kelly?
>just did it MY way! <G>\
>~Kelly
-giggle-<<<<
*MY* way, of course!
~Kelly, true queen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lenhart
Ok, please understand, I'm venting. Some of what I say here might be
scattered, but I'm doing this here in the heat of the moment to get it off
my chest.
I AM F'IN FURIOUS!!
We have a family friend who is very close to our oldest son, who is 8. He
spends time at this guy's house and is very impressed by him. As in
impressionable. A bit of a hero/big brother thing.
Which would be great if this guy would understand that HIS IS NOT THE F'IN
PARENT. We are. And while he is more than welcome to model behavior he
thinks is appropriate and even encourage, he is not supposed to
"discipline." Ever. And he tries to do it in front of us sometimes, which
would be hysterical if only.... I mean honestly, even if we weren't
unschooling and trying to be non-coersive and all that, I'd be pretty
pissed.
Our son was supposed to spend a couple days at this man's house. He came
home because when he refused to take a shower his friend, and I quote,
"wouldn't reward that behavior by letting him play video games." Our son,
quite resonably, chose to come home rather than deal.
We have asked him for help in the past with giving our son an outlet for
things that are tough with littler sibs around and with over worked parents.
We have asked for his help in our home with the mess we have trouble with
because of our own habits and having small children. He has repeatedly
interpreted that as free license to try and parent us.
I commented that the 8 year old can be rough with his younger sibs. It
happens. I wasn't asking for advice, I wasn't doing anything but
commenting. He asks, "And what consequences are there for doing that?" In
this amazingly condecending tone like, "And didn't you do anything about
it?" Who in their right mind talks to a parent that way?
He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt
that for a moment. But it's amazing to see this sort of thing "from the
outside" if you will. I mean the whole thing of wondering if you'd do the
same thing to an adult friend really takes on new meaning here.
He does have a younger brother, who he's sort of parented over the years.
Anyway, the biggest reason I'm so pissed, really, is the effect on their
friendship. It means so much to our son, he's clearly really upset. I think
he'd like to go back over, if not this weekend, then next, as planned. But
this has to be worked out.
AARRRRGGGGHHHH, my heart is breaking for my kid. I could kill this guy for
being so stupid.
Kelly
scattered, but I'm doing this here in the heat of the moment to get it off
my chest.
I AM F'IN FURIOUS!!
We have a family friend who is very close to our oldest son, who is 8. He
spends time at this guy's house and is very impressed by him. As in
impressionable. A bit of a hero/big brother thing.
Which would be great if this guy would understand that HIS IS NOT THE F'IN
PARENT. We are. And while he is more than welcome to model behavior he
thinks is appropriate and even encourage, he is not supposed to
"discipline." Ever. And he tries to do it in front of us sometimes, which
would be hysterical if only.... I mean honestly, even if we weren't
unschooling and trying to be non-coersive and all that, I'd be pretty
pissed.
Our son was supposed to spend a couple days at this man's house. He came
home because when he refused to take a shower his friend, and I quote,
"wouldn't reward that behavior by letting him play video games." Our son,
quite resonably, chose to come home rather than deal.
We have asked him for help in the past with giving our son an outlet for
things that are tough with littler sibs around and with over worked parents.
We have asked for his help in our home with the mess we have trouble with
because of our own habits and having small children. He has repeatedly
interpreted that as free license to try and parent us.
I commented that the 8 year old can be rough with his younger sibs. It
happens. I wasn't asking for advice, I wasn't doing anything but
commenting. He asks, "And what consequences are there for doing that?" In
this amazingly condecending tone like, "And didn't you do anything about
it?" Who in their right mind talks to a parent that way?
He's a good guy, who really genuinely cares about our son. I don't doubt
that for a moment. But it's amazing to see this sort of thing "from the
outside" if you will. I mean the whole thing of wondering if you'd do the
same thing to an adult friend really takes on new meaning here.
He does have a younger brother, who he's sort of parented over the years.
Anyway, the biggest reason I'm so pissed, really, is the effect on their
friendship. It means so much to our son, he's clearly really upset. I think
he'd like to go back over, if not this weekend, then next, as planned. But
this has to be worked out.
AARRRRGGGGHHHH, my heart is breaking for my kid. I could kill this guy for
being so stupid.
Kelly
Kelly Lenhart
>A man who is not your 8yo son's father insisted your son take a shower.Personally, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable >-- no, I'm sure I'd be very
uncomfortable -- with this scenario. Something about it just feels
inappropriate, especially >if your son didn't feel comfortable showering at
this friend's home.
I knew that would sound funny and should have said more. He's been our
son's nanny in the past, a friend for about 4 years and I trust him. It WAS
a personal space issue, but more in the "I'm not ready to do that, I'm busy"
sense than in any danger way.
>I will admit that my 'weird' radar is easily set-off (several incidences ofchild molestation in my extended family) but >for me it's a big, red flag
when an man without kids of his own takes a personal interest in a young
boy.
I totally understand. It's sad that our society is such that we do get
these red flags. In the old days, kids would have spent time with unrelated
or more distantly related males all the time to learn things their parents
couldn't teach. You know, in the bad old days when we all kept quiet about
abuse. -sigh- Mixed bag.
>You're talking about a guy who 'helped' raise his younger sibling. You'veasked him for 'help' with your bad habits >and mess. I can understand where
he got the impression you are immature, incapable parents who need his
>guidance. He probably feels like he's doing your son a favor, given thelack of direction it appears he gets at home >(I'm not saying I think it's
lack of discipline, just that I can see where he would think that).
We have talked about this before. I don't think he thinks we are negligent
as such, but that he sees so clearly how our choices make life difficult for
us and if we could only just see that he has the answers.....-sigh- I've
never met an evangelical Buddist before, it's kinda weird. -grin-
We talked today and he says he does tend to "mother" and that it is related
to taking care of his brother, etc.
>Have you told him what your method is, or just left him to believe you are'doing nothing' about discipline? It sounds >to me like the friend believes
you should be "doing more."
Not really. I dont' see him as often, except when passing our son off.
Hubby sees him more, but then, guys don't talk about this stuff.
I did talk to him today and he made the situation much clearer.
It was a matter of not wanting our son to be dirty in/around his bed and
other stuff. Which is fair. I didn't think my eight year old was that
grubby, but then I am surrounded by kids and cats and general grubbiness.
He isn't. His house, his choice.
What ended up happening was classic parental miscue (not making it clear it
was about his space)/everyone being overtired, not in the frame to work on
it (son is even not feeling so well)/and getting into a power struggle.
Which let me tell you, my kid excels at.
He's going back over today, with a clearer understanding on both sides.
Kelly
Kelly Lenhart
>And how good is this guy at dealing with adults? Any more skilled?He's actually pulled something similar with me. I didn't deal any better
with it. -grin- It's a heat of the moment thing. With a night's
reflection he can see how they got there and what part his actions played.
>Could you gift this guy with a book on Zen Buddhism to help him let goLOL! I commented in another post that I've never met an evangelical
>of his attachment to controlling the behavior of others?
Buddhist before and he can be one. If only we would see how much easier
life would be if we would only do it "this" way. -sigh-
Kelly
Kelly Lenhart
>>>>>If only we would see how much easier life would be if we would only doit
"this" way. <<<<<
>Right. It's called a Kellyarchy. Life would be SO much easier if everyoneAh, but is that YOUR Kelly or MY Kelly? Which is the One True (TM) Kelly?
>just did it MY way! <G>\
>~Kelly
-giggle-
Kelly