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-=- I am not sure if unschooling in itself is extreme. I think it is a

bad idea to not be willing to introduce knowledge to a child, as we

have been doing it for a very long time, far longer then we have had

schools. -=-

Yes.
And before there were schools, that knowledge was not presented in schoolish
ways.
And it doesn't have to be.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that unschoolers don't "introduce
knowledge" to their children. I can't see in your head, so I don't know how
schoolish your introduction to knowledge ideas are.

-=- I think it is a negative thing for a parent to not present a child

with what they think they should know. Like manners, and morals.-=-

Well I agree with you totally.
And I have no idea why you made the assumption that our children are kept
clueless about manners and morals.

But it's interesting to me that your example includes morals.
Morality is VERY important in our family.

-=-At 4

years old I can and feel I should teach my daughter these things.

Along with how to clean her room, not to run in the road and why. I

take the time to teach her things I know. Sometimes she is

interested, sometimes not.-=-

If she's not interested your "teaching" is song and dance without an
audience. But when she IS interested, her learning will astound you. If you stop
trying to teach and look for her desire to learn, you'll move a step toward
helping HER live a life of learning.


-=- I think it is a negative thing for a parent to not present a child

with what they think they should know. Like manners, and morals.-=-

Well I agree with you totally.
And I have no idea why you made the assumption that our children are kept
clueless about manners and morals.

But it's interesting to me that your example includes morals.
Morality is VERY important in our family.

Morality is so important to me that I would not lie to get my child into
college. I've never lied on a resume, and I won't start now.

It is possible to get kids into college without a transcript. I did it for
my sister in the early 70's. I was a teenager. If a teenager can figure out
how to do it for another teenager without compromising morals or integrity,
certainly a grown mother who has been consciously unschooling her child for years
can figure out how to do it.

I know I'm repeating myself, but a "transcript" doesn't have to look like a
school transcript, and if unschoolers make a transcript that DOES look just
like a school transcript (with numbers of credits and letter grades) they're not
presenting their children with manners and morals to MY standards. My
integrity doesn't stretch far enough to falsify records. If yours does, that's your
personal concern.

Part of the reason my children respect my opinion is they know I'm honest.
It's very important to me to maintain that integrity throughout their lives,
not just until I decide to lie about our whole lives to that point to get them
into school.

If you think a high school transcript is a necessity (for your four year old
daughter) then by all means, plan to send her to high school! They give
transcripts out free. Or sign up to use a curriculum by mail, or an online high
school course, or some means by which an accredited educational establishment
will give her a legitimate transcript.

Nobody's telling you you have to unschool. Nobody's telling you you have to
be honest.

What people are trying to discuss here is the connection between the way one
lives one's life and the ramifications of falsifying records (ESPECIALLY when
there is no need to falsify records whatsoever, because several alternatives
have been presented).


-=- I am not talking about testing a child, I am talking about testing a

young adult getting ready to go out into the world. Like age 16ish!-=--

I believe you were suggesting earlier that testing children wouldn't hurt at
all, because they would need to learn good test-taking skills. By 16 if
they're ready to take ACT or SAT or A levels or whatever, then that is NOT the
kind of test people here are objecting to. People here tend to avoid the Iowa
Test of Basic Skills being administered to their children every year or few,
and the child being branded slow or gifted or average. None of those labels
has ever helped a child learn.

-=- I am one of those people that can say I shall do something and more

then likely I will do it. -=-

"Shall" is just too strong a word. Think about what it means. Not "maybe"
and not "probably."

Had you said "I will probably..." then your statement would've been hunky
dory, but if say that when my daughter gets married I shall wear blue and sit in
the front pew with a flower in my hair, I'm saying more than I have any
business saying.

You don't know, today, that your daughter will ever want to go to college.
You don't know, today, that your daughter will be alive in twelve years.
Perhaps the best thing you can do, today, is help her have a really great
April 18, 2004.

-=- Goodness, did I say they are stupid? I do not think so, I think the

desition to not help their child get into a college that demands

transcrips because it would be in thier eyes lieing, mine changing,

that it would be stupid.-=-

You did say stupid. Right in writing, right in public.
Nobody forced you to write, and nobody forced you to hit "send," so take
responsibility for what you say in public. People ARE reading, so if you don't
mean what you write, please don't write.


-=-Picture me saying that I think it is

better to change when needed a little then to fight the system that

shall not change for you but could very well make your child very

happy. -=-

You said "shall" again. Now you're guaranteeing the behavior of something
completely outside yourself.

Here are the acceptable uses of shall: Of oneself (but it's a kind of
guarantee of future behavior, so use it sparingly) or of others IF the speaker is in
a position to make it so. A judge or a king declaring that somenoe shall be
imprisoned or shall be hanged.

Otherwise "shall" is too strong. The system has changed more than it has
ever stayed the same. And since people here have shown and accounted and linked
to evidence that it IS possible to get into college without transcripts, your
"shall not change" is false and wrong.

If my child's happiness depended on my dishonesty, their world would not be
the open, honest place it is today.

Their happiness thusfar has benefitted from my honesty, and I question your
motives in counselling people to turn from honesty to sneakiness.

-=- Since when is life about being happy? Life is not about being happy,

not that I have ever learned.-=-

Well....
Our house is happy.
My kids are happy, I'm happy.

You think children could be happier if moms falsify transcripts, yet you
don't think life is about being happy, maybe you should spend smoe more time
thinking about what you really believe about life and happiness.

-=- Life is about being useful, about being

a good person, about makeing life woth something. Happy comes with

being useful.-=-

My children are good, useful people whose lives are worth more than most
kids' lives because they are living examples of happy goodness. Honestly, they
knew years ago they were poster children for unschooling, and they're such good
sports about it. I'm relieved. They could've said, "Stop talking about this
so much," but they themselves will sometimes say "You should tell the list
about this" if something cool happens at our house.

-=-My child is so happy to help, she does not see work as

something negative or as something she must do before she can have fun.-=-

Mine too, but in their case work is NOT something they must do before they
can have fun.
I'm guessing it's different at your house because you wrote the statement
above and I could never have conjured a statement like that from the patterns at
our house.

-=- Work, learning, playing, are all part of her learning and to her, all
fun! -=-

My house too.

-=-That in itself helps me think we are doing something right. -=-

Good. I bet you're doing lots of things right.
Your recommendations on this list weren't on your glorious-right list,
though.

Here's what I think about happiness if you get any more reading-energy later:


http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/essay06.shtml
It's "Rejecting a Pre-Packaged Life," an article I wrote when my kids were
young.
They're 12, 15 and 17 now.
I don't feel less strongly about my decisions now, but more.

And I think life is about happiness, when you can manage well.

-=-Since when is life about being happy? -=-

Happy lives are about happiness.
I'm sorry yours isn't happier, but we could help you with ideas to tweak it a
bit if you want.

Sandra