[email protected]

In a message dated 4/17/04 9:08:20 AM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< Children who are raised in homes where they are treated with respect and
are
loved unconditionally, understand they'd have to give all that up to live in
the a world where they could kill without remorse. What they'd have to give
up is way more valuable than what they'd get in return. If we concentrate on
creating a life and world that they wouldn't want to give up, then we can be
confident that no matter what they explore, that they're going to conclude
that they already have something that's too good to give up. >>

I like this point a lot.

For some people, the military is a safer place than their family of origin.
For some people, being in prison is preferable to continuing to fail out in
the world.
For some people, running away and all the danger that entails is preferable
to one more night at home.

Unschoolers who have dedicated their lives to making their children feel
safely whole and loved won't have kids who would rather be ANYWHERE but at home.

When my kids leave it will be because someplace is better than here, but it's
going to have to be pretty good!

I remember kids when I was younger glomming on to the first person who would
be kind to them because it was better than home.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/17/2004 12:41:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
When my kids leave it will be because someplace is better than here, but it's
going to have to be pretty good!



I'm very often asked how in the world I'm ever going to get John (19) to
leave home if I keep making it so comfortable for him here. I don't understand
that, I usually just give a blank look, which is all my mind can come up with,
not believing I've heard this yet again.

Are there people in the world who get excited and giddy at the thought of
their children leaving home? It sure doesn't stir those kinds of thoughts here.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <rubyprincesstsg@...>

<<I'm very often asked how in the world I'm ever going to get John (19) to
leave home if I keep making it so comfortable for him here. I don't
understand
that, I usually just give a blank look, which is all my mind can come up
with,
not believing I've heard this yet again.>>



Many parents can't wait until their child/children turn 18 just so they can
say, go on your way. And many kids can't wait for that either.

Tara was just accepted to FAU. I was writing everyone telling them because
she was so happy. It's the only university she wanted to go to. My cousin,
who has 1 grown out of college kid, made the remark that now Tara will be
happy and getting use to dorm life. Not in a kick her out kind of way, but
like she thought Tara couldn't wait to get out. (she lives far away and has
never seen my kids)
For Tara, that university was actually a good selling point for her to go.
Not only is it a good college, but it's close enough that she can stay home.
Her best friend told her if she were her, she wouldn't move out until she
was married!

Tara has a few friends that are actually looking forward to getting out of
the house now. She also has a few who have been told to leave now. It's
really so sad.

Mary B

Kristi

>
> Many parents can't wait until their child/children turn 18 just so
they can
> say, go on your way. And many kids can't wait for that either.
>


For many it starts so much younger than this ... I think it is a lot
of the problem others have understanding homeschooling and esp.
unschooling (in which kids are so much more involved in their
parents lives even than homeschoolers). I hear so many mothers say
to me, "You must be really looking forward to Morgaine going to
school next year," or "Wow, I can't wait until the kids are all in
school and I can have the house to myself all day!" It is very,
very sad to me that people can dislike their children to that extent
or take so little joy from the time they have with their kids.

Kristi

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2004 9:16:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
Are there people in the world who get excited and giddy at the thought of
their children leaving home? It sure doesn't stir those kinds of thoughts
here.<<<<<

Yes, of course. And there are some that are booted out right after graduation
or as soon as they turn 18.

Have you not seen the Disney World commercial?

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <kbcdlovejo@...>

> Have you not seen the Disney World commercial?



I don't think I have. What is about? Kids leaving home?

Mary B

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2004 12:47:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
> Have you not seen the Disney World commercial?



I don't think I have. What is about? Kids leaving home?<<<

Mom and dad in their fifties or so are living it up in Disney World----now
that the children are gone. Golfing, swimming, dancing, "tunel of love" rides.

A voice says, "What will YOU do after the kids are all gone?"----or something
like that. Typical parenting commercial.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

Are there people in the world who get excited and giddy at the thought of
their children leaving home? It sure doesn't stir those kinds of thoughts
here.<<<<<

Yes, of course. And there are some that are booted out right after graduation
or as soon as they turn 18.

Have you not seen the Disney World commercial?

~Kelly
Sort of reminds me of the old Staples commercial: "Its the most wonderful time of the year" LOL.

I have to admit though, when I mourn the idea of my children leaving home, I think of that Disney commercial and think "wow, so many new things to do" :o).

Kristen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> I have to admit though, when I mourn the idea of my children
leaving home, I think of that Disney commercial and think "wow, so
many new things to do" :o).

That's what I would think of if I saw that commercial.
The idea of an "empty nest" makes me very sad, even though I realize
that it's bound to happen someday.
If I'm lucky enough to have grandchildren my door will be wide open
at all times. :-)

Patti

Robyn Coburn

<<Tara was just accepted to FAU. I was writing everyone telling them because
she was so happy. It's the only university she wanted to go to.>>

Congratulations to Tara on her acceptance! What courses does she plan on
taking? (If you don't mind my idle curiosity)
Robyn L. Coburn


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/04 11:19:06 AM Central Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
In a message dated 4/22/2004 9:16:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
Are there people in the world who get excited and giddy at the thought of
their children leaving home? It sure doesn't stir those kinds of thoughts
here.<<<<<

Yes, of course. And there are some that are booted out right after graduation
or as soon as they turn 18.

Have you not seen the Disney World commercial?

~Kelly
#########

Quoting Homer Simpsom, my Dad and countless others; "When you're 18 you're
out the door! Woo Whoo!"
And when I told my parents once that one of my best dreams is that one day I
would have a huge old house filled with my kids, their spouses/partners, their
kids, dogs ... my Mom looked at me like a deer caught in headlights looks and
my Dad just shook his head and said, "No, you don't want that."
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<And when I told my parents once that one of my best dreams is that one day
I would have a huge old house filled with my kids, their spouses/partners,
their kids, dogs ... my Mom looked at me like a deer caught in headlights
looks and my Dad just shook his head and said, "No, you don't want that."
~Nancy>>

This made me think of the movie "Moonstruck", when Olympia Dukakis asks
Cher's character why don't they live there (in the huge family brownstone)
after she has married. Cher says "Papa don't like Johnny". It seems to me
that maybe it is a cultural thing - the idea of people staying in the family
home. Maybe it is an economic thing - most people's homes aren't really
large enough for multigenerations - not like the old English mansions
described in Austen.

I am reading an interesting book called "The Subversive Family: An
Alternative History of Love and Marriage" by Ferdinand Mount, a British
author. (It sure is taking a long time but I keep coming and going - it's
not a gripping narrative anyway). He uses old church, courts and census
information as primary sources for the kind of households people had, and
how old they were when they married etc. His research shows that outside of
politically motivated marriages amongst the nobility and monarchies, most
ordinary people married for affection in their mid 20's, waiting this long
for economic reasons, and would have lived with their parents until that
time.

Robyn L. Coburn

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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2004 9:28:25 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
mummy124@... writes:
Many parents can't wait until their child/children turn 18 just so they can
say, go on your way. And many kids can't wait for that either.
------------------

We know a couple with one son, bio son of the dad, but the step mom's been
there since the boy was pretty young.

They told him when he was 17 that at 18 he had to leave. I had a long
conversation with her about it, trying to see if I could gently persuade her not to
dump him so unceremoniously.

He's not calm and mature. He's very school-damaged, but not interested in
college (especially since they told him if he wants to go he'll have to figure
out how to pay for it, bye bye).

I feel ashamed to know them.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

moonwindstarsky

I think parents would care more about their kids than dumping at a
certain age, although it's likely they may need to be independent if
something happens later on.

Some cultures are family oriented so I think it's a cultural thing
here for family to spread far and wide.
Why do people want to have kids then leave them at an age?


--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/22/2004 9:28:25 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> mummy124@b... writes:
> Many parents can't wait until their child/children turn 18 just so
they can
> say, go on your way. And many kids can't wait for that either.
> ------------------
>
> We know a couple with one son, bio son of the dad, but the step
mom's been
> there since the boy was pretty young.
>
> They told him when he was 17 that at 18 he had to leave. I had a
long
> conversation with her about it, trying to see if I could gently
persuade her not to
> dump him so unceremoniously.
>
> He's not calm and mature. He's very school-damaged, but not
interested in
> college (especially since they told him if he wants to go he'll
have to figure
> out how to pay for it, bye bye).
>
> I feel ashamed to know them.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>

<<Congratulations to Tara on her acceptance! What courses does she plan on
taking? (If you don't mind my idle curiosity)>>

Thank you. She is quite excited to get started. She will be the first person
on both sides of the family to attend a university in ages. Everyone has
seemed to do tech schools. That's all well and fine really. Worked out great
for me. She just sees herself as stepping outside the box. She also got the
Bright Futures Scholarship. She will be going for business although she
hasn't narrowed it down more yet.

I must say that at her age and when I think about myself, she is so
incredibly determined and eager. She has handled all this on her own. The
scholarship and college, all the paperwork she's had to do. My mom took care
of everything for me and believe me, college then wasn't like it is now as
far as getting in. There are so many hoops to jump through. And she's worked
the whole time too. Let alone attended school! Blech!! (sorry for the S
word!)

Mary B

Mary

From: <SandraDodd@...>

<< We know a couple with one son, bio son of the dad, but the step mom's
been
there since the boy was pretty young.

They told him when he was 17 that at 18 he had to leave. I had a long
conversation with her about it, trying to see if I could gently persuade
her not to
dump him so unceremoniously.

He's not calm and mature. He's very school-damaged, but not interested in
college (especially since they told him if he wants to go he'll have to
figure
out how to pay for it, bye bye).

I feel ashamed to know them.>>


I'm ashamed to say I have one of those in my own family. It's a cousin. We
were never close but his sister told me he does that with his kids. At 18,
they have to go. Whether it's college, tech school or just out and a job,
they have to go. He has one out already and one getting ready to get out.
She's actually taking him in. The other two are still young yet. First two
are boys, second two are girls. I'm wondering if that will make a
difference.

Mary B

Inna Manni

--- moonwindstarsky <moonwindstarsky@...> wrote:
> Why do people want to have kids then leave them at an age?


Some people were never meant to be parents. Yet starting a family and
having kids was part of The Plan, there was a lot of pressure from
family members, friends and co-workers... how lucky that it is also
part of The Plan that once you have kids, you don't have to be there
for them. They can be sent to the hospital nursery right after birth.
Once they are home, they can be stuck into a crib is a separate room.
You don't really have to interuct with your child after that. That's
what schools and formula companies are for. (sarcasm, and sorry if I
am offending someone who couldn't breastfeed for medical reasons).

--Inna








__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
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pam sorooshian

On Apr 21, 2004, at 8:47 AM, rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:

> Are there people in the world who get excited and giddy at the thought
> of
> their children leaving home? It sure doesn't stir those kinds of
> thoughts here.
>

YES. It can come time when you just know it IS time and you are proud
and happy and ready for kids to go out on their own. I love my oldest
daughter with all my heart and miss her terribly when she's gone, but
I'm very excited for her and glad she's venturing out and glad she has
the urge to become independent and so on. Sometimes, too, older kids
are really not good roommates - it can be hard living with another
adult who is also your kid. They ought to be making their own
decisions, some good and some bad, and it can be hard to be so close to
them, physically, and still let them make decisions that, as adults,
they SHOULD be making for themselves. And sometimes kids don't act
super nice right around the time they are feeling an urge to move out
and be independent, because it is hard for them to go and they
sometimes don't want things to be quite so great at home, just to make
it a bit easier. There are all KINDS of situations and I find the above
statement to be quite judgmental and rude.

When our kids are moving into adulthood, hanging on to them and wishing
they wouldn't want to move on and develop independent lives is not
doing THEM any favors, either. Better to be excited and giddy and happy
and supportive and encouraging.

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/04 7:20:52 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< When our kids are moving into adulthood, hanging on to them and wishing
they wouldn't want to move on and develop independent lives is not
doing THEM any favors, either. Better to be excited and giddy and happy
and supportive and encouraging.
>>

Yeah, but when they're ready to leave, not when the clock strikes 18, as it
were.

Sandra

moonwindstarsky

I think those people should consider their decisions more carefully
before anything is done IMHO.
--- In [email protected], Inna Manni
<SpinFrog@y...> wrote:
>
> --- moonwindstarsky <moonwindstarsky@y...> wrote:
> > Why do people want to have kids then leave them at an age?
>
>
> Some people were never meant to be parents. > --Inna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

[email protected]

We have recently had the pleasure of our 20 year old moving back home. She
moved in with her boyfriend at almost 19 (been gone about 2 years actually) but
decided she wants to get debt free, put a lot of money away, and go to Mexico
to live for a while with her boyfriend. He moved back in with his brother,
and they're both saving their pennies.

It is sooooo nice having her around again. Before she left, we squabbled
much more, but now we are enjoying cooking, gardening, and sewing together. I
enjoy being around her and having a second chance to be together. I like the
idea of multi-generational families living together! We have acerage and have
told the kids they can build their own homes if they want to.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Apr 22, 2004, at 9:02 AM, Kristi wrote:

> "Wow, I can't wait until the kids are all in
> school and I can have the house to myself all day!" It is very,
> very sad to me that people can dislike their children to that extent
> or take so little joy from the time they have with their kids.

They don't necessarily dislike their kids or take little joy from the
time they spend with them. You're assuming that. They might be people
who aren't up for spending all day everyday with their kids, that's
all. Now that my kids are getting older, I'm finding that I like my
alone time more and more, myself. And as much as I've loved and enjoyed
all the time I've spent with my children, I can easily understand that
not everybody enjoys spending all their time with kids, even their own.
I think it is very sad that some people are put down because they don't
have an overwhelming desire to be with their kids morning, noon, and
night. People are different and children are different - some are easy
to be with all the time and others are not. Some parents want to be
with their kids all the time and others who love their kids JUST as
much, may enjoy the time they spend together just as much even if it
isn't ALL the time.

Let's talk about unschooling.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Shannon

test

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2004 9:20:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> It can come time when you just know it IS time and you are proud
> and happy and ready for kids to go out on their own. I love my oldest
> daughter with all my heart and miss her terribly when she's gone, but
> I'm very excited for her and glad she's venturing out and glad she has
> the urge to become independent and so on.

I know what you mean. I have already started preparing myself a bit for "that
day", so that I'm not clingy and all that yucky stuff. But when I bring up to
Wyl about "when he moves out" he gets VERY upset and insists that he will
live here forever! Ah... so nice to dream. :~) I reassure him that he can stay as
long as he wants to, but that its okay if he should change his mind. He says
he won't. ;~) Ah, isn't it nice to still be his best friend at 5! I'm
thrilled!

Síocháin ar domhan,
Sang


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> There are all KINDS of situations and I find the above
> statement to be quite judgmental and rude.
> When our kids are moving into adulthood, hanging on to them and
wishing
> they wouldn't want to move on and develop independent lives is not
> doing THEM any favors, either. Better to be excited and giddy and
happy
> and supportive and encouraging.

Glena was expressing wonder at the fact that other people would
judge *her* about her son remaining comfortable living at home at
19, I believe.
I don't at all think she was talking about "hanging on to them"
longer than they'd like. I seem to remember that she has another
older child already out on his/her own (I could be wrong though).

Patti

averyschmidt

> I think it is very sad that some people are put down because they
don't
> have an overwhelming desire to be with their kids morning, noon,
and
> night. People are different and children are different - some are
easy
> to be with all the time and others are not. Some parents want to
be
> with their kids all the time and others who love their kids JUST
as
> much, may enjoy the time they spend together just as much even if
it
> isn't ALL the time.

This is very true.
In homeschooling circles there is a lot of talk about the "sadness"
of people wanting their kids in school to the point that they even
dread school vacations. I can why that's a sad state of affairs,
but at the same time I feel a little twinge of guilt for the times
when my husband takes the kids somewhere for a half a day and I do a
little happy dance.
I love time to myself as much as the next person.

Patti

pam sorooshian

On Apr 23, 2004, at 6:15 AM, averyschmidt wrote:

> Glena was expressing wonder at the fact that other people would
> judge *her* about her son remaining comfortable living at home at
> 19, I believe.

That was the first part of her post. But I'm responding to the second
part where she said:

<Are there people in the world who get excited and giddy at the
thought of
their children leaving home? It sure doesn't stir those kinds of
thoughts here.
>

I answered her, yes, there are people who get excited and giddy at the
thought of their children leaving home because it is a good time for it
and because the child is excited and happy. I have a daughter who is
right now in the midst of it and I'm thrilled and excited and happy for
her. When kids feel the urge to move on at some point and establish
themselves as independent people, becoming more capable and competent
and responsible, that's not something parents have to be sad about and
why should we NOT be happy and supportive and encouraging. And - what's
more - why should we NOT look forward to some time to ourselves and
time to pursue some of our own interests that might have been put on
hold while we had children at home. When the time is right, it can feel
right. I'm not going to feel guilty that I'm glad my daughter, who will
be almost 20 when she really moves out, wants to go. I'll miss the
young girl just like I miss the toddler and the baby she once was, but
we are moving into a wonderful relationship as two adults and I glory
in THAT too.

The above comment makes it seem like parents who are glad to see their
kids grow up and move out don't love their kids as much as she does, or
something. I think the opposite is true, really loving them is going to
mean keeping some of those "sad to see time passing" feelings to
ourselves, not burdening them with them, and, instead, supporting the
heady joy and excitement that they experience at that time of
transition from child to adult. It is a WONDERFUL time for them, why
should they not be excited and giddy and why should we not share that
with them?

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

[email protected]

> > Why do people want to have kids then leave them at an age?

>

>

> Some people were never meant to be parents. >

>
<< I think those people should consider their decisions more carefully

before anything is done IMHO. >>

--------------------

Even in the rare case in which sex is engaged in for the purpose of getting
pregnant, the people have No Idea whether they will be good parents or not.
It's not over til it's over. There are hormonal factors (does mothering
instinct kick in really full force or not? some of that is biochemical). There are
social factors and other people involved. Partners bail sometimes. Partners
stay and make things worse sometimes.

We can't begin to second guess or to prescribe fixes for people who have
bigger problems and other priorities than we have. The best thing we can do here,
I think, is help those whose situations and personalities and priorities have
led them to want to unschool, and we can brainstorm and tweak and speculate
and offer resources to assist.

Sandra

Lisa M. Cottrell Bentley

> I answered her, yes, there are people who get excited and giddy at the
> thought of their children leaving home because it is a good time for it
> and because the child is excited and happy. I have a daughter who is
> right now in the midst of it and I'm thrilled and excited and happy for
> her.

Thanks for saying all of this. I know that when I was naturally growing
away from my parents and wanting to go off to college, I was made to feel
like I was a horrible person for wanting to live away from my parents. My
mother was crying constantly and begging me to stay, or at least call for an
hour or two every day and come home from Friday night until Monday morning
every single weekend. I wasn't allowed to have the independence that I
craved because my mother was too dependent upon me. Life would have been
completely different for us (and I would have respected her) had she just
been happy for me. I had to move 1700 miles away from her just to finally
get that freedom. Love doesn't equal clinging.

-Lisa in AZ, who will never live close to family except my own kids

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/23/04 1:47:43 PM, cottrellbentley@... writes:

<< Thanks for saying all of this. I know that when I was naturally growing
away from my parents and wanting to go off to college, I was made to feel
like I was a horrible person for wanting to live away from my parents. My
mother was crying constantly and begging me to stay, or at least call for an
hour or two every day and come home from Friday night until Monday morning
every single weekend. >>

There's something kind of cool about that, though.

I went to college when I was newly 17. I came home most weekends (it was 90
miles) but not all.

My parents got divorced and before that schoolyear was out, the house had
been sold, and they'd each moved into smaller places. I had no home to go back
to. That was sad for me. So when I read about families who have kids over 18
and they would still like for them to hang out, stay home, keep your room, I'm
wistful and a little jealous.

Sandra