follow up- bedtime
pinkflyingponies
Two nights ago we told the girls they were going to stay up as late
as they wanted. They were like "ok". We told them when it got too
late around the normal bedtime they were going to have to play
quietly. They need to since there is a family downstairs from us,
and any small jump it like a big thud. We know since we use to live
down there before. They were okay with it. I don't know if others
are playing non-stop with their kids at 10-11pm or not but that
didn't seem possible for us. To play all day and into the night. So
my oldest(aspie) had a bit of a problem with this. I thought my dh
was going to go crazy. And he is a peaceful guy. They were up until
midnight when they said they were tired. We got ready and got into
bed with them. Hannah then proceeds to tell me, she may not be
ready. I said "Do you want to get up" "No, but I don't want to
sleep." I told her that she just stayed up until midnight and came
to me to go to sleep. It was like the conversation we normally
have. I told her I would rub her head while she fell asleep(like we
always do, even when she use to nurse.) Ok and she was asleep in
seconds.
Same last night they were up until 11ish. This morning the little
boy downstairs who gets up early and runs around loud. It woke up the
girls and they were a bit grumpy. Tonight in bed at 10pm but oldest
was picking fights with Hannah because she was tired. So it resulted
in tears. Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She
was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.
I asked Hannah if she wanted the bedtime again and she said yes. I
asked her if she thought I was being mean when I would say that it
was bedtime.(I don't mean that I all of a sudden announce it. We do
bath, supper, play, books, bathroom, bed.) She said no. Believe me
this little one will tell you if you are sounding mean.
I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need
the routine. Especially with my dd that is Aspergers. It throws her
whole world out of whack.
I think the girls realized they don't want to stay up. LOL. My first
post made it seem worse than it may be. I try to always work things
out with the girls. I think that was getting me down the most. I try
to put in a lot of effort instead of saying "because I say so". I
explain and talk and listen until they do fall asleep. <g>
Sorry this post is so long.
Deb.
as they wanted. They were like "ok". We told them when it got too
late around the normal bedtime they were going to have to play
quietly. They need to since there is a family downstairs from us,
and any small jump it like a big thud. We know since we use to live
down there before. They were okay with it. I don't know if others
are playing non-stop with their kids at 10-11pm or not but that
didn't seem possible for us. To play all day and into the night. So
my oldest(aspie) had a bit of a problem with this. I thought my dh
was going to go crazy. And he is a peaceful guy. They were up until
midnight when they said they were tired. We got ready and got into
bed with them. Hannah then proceeds to tell me, she may not be
ready. I said "Do you want to get up" "No, but I don't want to
sleep." I told her that she just stayed up until midnight and came
to me to go to sleep. It was like the conversation we normally
have. I told her I would rub her head while she fell asleep(like we
always do, even when she use to nurse.) Ok and she was asleep in
seconds.
Same last night they were up until 11ish. This morning the little
boy downstairs who gets up early and runs around loud. It woke up the
girls and they were a bit grumpy. Tonight in bed at 10pm but oldest
was picking fights with Hannah because she was tired. So it resulted
in tears. Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She
was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.
I asked Hannah if she wanted the bedtime again and she said yes. I
asked her if she thought I was being mean when I would say that it
was bedtime.(I don't mean that I all of a sudden announce it. We do
bath, supper, play, books, bathroom, bed.) She said no. Believe me
this little one will tell you if you are sounding mean.
I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need
the routine. Especially with my dd that is Aspergers. It throws her
whole world out of whack.
I think the girls realized they don't want to stay up. LOL. My first
post made it seem worse than it may be. I try to always work things
out with the girls. I think that was getting me down the most. I try
to put in a lot of effort instead of saying "because I say so". I
explain and talk and listen until they do fall asleep. <g>
Sorry this post is so long.
Deb.
Robyn Coburn
<<Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She
was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.
I asked Hannah if she wanted the bedtime again and she said yes. I
asked her if she thought I was being mean when I would say that it
was bedtime.(I don't mean that I all of a sudden announce it. We do
bath, supper, play, books, bathroom, bed.) She said no. Believe me
this little one will tell you if you are sounding mean.
I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need
the routine. Especially with my dd that is Aspergers. It throws her
whole world out of whack.>>
I realize that you are struggling with this ongoing issue. I have it easy
because I only have one dd, who is definitely a night owl. I may have missed
the answer to this question in the prior posts, but why do both girls have
to go to bed at the same time? Maybe they could have their sleeping and
waking staggered to accommodate the different needs. Why does the younger
girl have to have a routine just because Emme needs it? It sounds like it is
more of a wanting your attention issue than a bedtime issue. We have found
that sometimes Jayn will just watch tv quietly (all her most favorite
cartoons are on in the wee hours) in bed while her father and I snooze. I
usually come half awake at some point to find her sleeping and switch off
the tv. If her dad has to get up early for work, I will stay in the darkened
living room with her while she watches, and I snooze on the sofa. I will get
up and carry her in to our bed once she is actually asleep. When my dh was
sick with a nasty flu recently we slept out there to avoid disturbing each
other, and I think Jayn really likes the sofa as a bed room. It is
comfortable enough but not as nice as our bed for my back. James and I try
to have our together time in the morning before Jayn gets up � not always
possible if I have been kept awake and need to sleep.
Robyn L. Coburn
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was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.
I asked Hannah if she wanted the bedtime again and she said yes. I
asked her if she thought I was being mean when I would say that it
was bedtime.(I don't mean that I all of a sudden announce it. We do
bath, supper, play, books, bathroom, bed.) She said no. Believe me
this little one will tell you if you are sounding mean.
I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need
the routine. Especially with my dd that is Aspergers. It throws her
whole world out of whack.>>
I realize that you are struggling with this ongoing issue. I have it easy
because I only have one dd, who is definitely a night owl. I may have missed
the answer to this question in the prior posts, but why do both girls have
to go to bed at the same time? Maybe they could have their sleeping and
waking staggered to accommodate the different needs. Why does the younger
girl have to have a routine just because Emme needs it? It sounds like it is
more of a wanting your attention issue than a bedtime issue. We have found
that sometimes Jayn will just watch tv quietly (all her most favorite
cartoons are on in the wee hours) in bed while her father and I snooze. I
usually come half awake at some point to find her sleeping and switch off
the tv. If her dad has to get up early for work, I will stay in the darkened
living room with her while she watches, and I snooze on the sofa. I will get
up and carry her in to our bed once she is actually asleep. When my dh was
sick with a nasty flu recently we slept out there to avoid disturbing each
other, and I think Jayn really likes the sofa as a bed room. It is
comfortable enough but not as nice as our bed for my back. James and I try
to have our together time in the morning before Jayn gets up � not always
possible if I have been kept awake and need to sleep.
Robyn L. Coburn
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24hrmom
<<Two nights ago we told the girls they were going to stay up as late as they wanted. They were like "ok".>>
This was likely very confusing for them, all of a sudden changing the game about going to sleep. I think the unschooling idea of "no bedtimes" means getting rid of the idea of an arbitrary time to go to bed just because of what time it is on the clock.
It means helping them learn to listen to their bodies about when they are tired and helping them decide what to do about it (quiet activity? nap? bedtime?).
It means helping them figure out how they best like to get to sleep. Maybe it is playing with them until they happily drop asleep and then carrying them to bed. Maybe it is finding out an opportune time to suggest getting ready for bed and launching into a comforting routine to help them settle into sleep (and not forcing the issue). Maybe it's them coming to you saying they are ready to start their routine. As the get older, maybe it's leaving them to play quietly while you are sleeping and crawling into bed when they are ready.
What "no bedtime" looks like in each unschooling house it going to be different. It's even likely to look different for each kid.
<<I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need the routine.>>
I wouldn't consider that an arbitrary bedtime, I would consider that a routine for going to sleep. You notice somewhere between 8 and 10pm that they seem to be getting tired, that the activity they are doing is coming to a close, and that now is a good time to start getting ready for bed.
<<Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.>>
That's sad. Any child who loves routines (labeled or not) will really enjoy a routine to help them settle into sleep. It sounds likes Emme loves her bedtime routine, irrespective of what time in the evening it starts. You know it's working well for her because she settles in and goes to sleep. The routine will change along with Emme as she grows ... be open to that. It sounds like Hannah enjoys the routine as well - the bath, the playing, the stories, the time with her parents - she's just not be ready to go to sleep at the end of it.
<<We got ready and got into bed with them. Hannah then proceeds to tell me, she may not be ready. I said "Do you want to get up" "No, but I don't want to sleep." I told her that she just stayed up until midnight and came to me to go to sleep. It was like the conversation we normally have.>>
I wouldn't say to her that you're just doing what she asked. It's pointing out your frustration with her that she can't figure out what she wants/needs. She's not doing it on purpose to frustrate you; it's likely just as frustrating for her. Instead take some time to try to help her figure it out. Your suggestion of laying down and rubbing her head worked well that night, you knew she was tired. Other nights if she doesn't take to that one, try some others you think she might be amenable to ... bringing some quiet toys to bed to play with, reading another story, or getting up to play quietly or watch a movie. Try help her figure out what her getting-to-sleep routine looks like.
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This was likely very confusing for them, all of a sudden changing the game about going to sleep. I think the unschooling idea of "no bedtimes" means getting rid of the idea of an arbitrary time to go to bed just because of what time it is on the clock.
It means helping them learn to listen to their bodies about when they are tired and helping them decide what to do about it (quiet activity? nap? bedtime?).
It means helping them figure out how they best like to get to sleep. Maybe it is playing with them until they happily drop asleep and then carrying them to bed. Maybe it is finding out an opportune time to suggest getting ready for bed and launching into a comforting routine to help them settle into sleep (and not forcing the issue). Maybe it's them coming to you saying they are ready to start their routine. As the get older, maybe it's leaving them to play quietly while you are sleeping and crawling into bed when they are ready.
What "no bedtime" looks like in each unschooling house it going to be different. It's even likely to look different for each kid.
<<I think bedtime works for us. It can range between 8-10pm but we need the routine.>>
I wouldn't consider that an arbitrary bedtime, I would consider that a routine for going to sleep. You notice somewhere between 8 and 10pm that they seem to be getting tired, that the activity they are doing is coming to a close, and that now is a good time to start getting ready for bed.
<<Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.>>
That's sad. Any child who loves routines (labeled or not) will really enjoy a routine to help them settle into sleep. It sounds likes Emme loves her bedtime routine, irrespective of what time in the evening it starts. You know it's working well for her because she settles in and goes to sleep. The routine will change along with Emme as she grows ... be open to that. It sounds like Hannah enjoys the routine as well - the bath, the playing, the stories, the time with her parents - she's just not be ready to go to sleep at the end of it.
<<We got ready and got into bed with them. Hannah then proceeds to tell me, she may not be ready. I said "Do you want to get up" "No, but I don't want to sleep." I told her that she just stayed up until midnight and came to me to go to sleep. It was like the conversation we normally have.>>
I wouldn't say to her that you're just doing what she asked. It's pointing out your frustration with her that she can't figure out what she wants/needs. She's not doing it on purpose to frustrate you; it's likely just as frustrating for her. Instead take some time to try to help her figure it out. Your suggestion of laying down and rubbing her head worked well that night, you knew she was tired. Other nights if she doesn't take to that one, try some others you think she might be amenable to ... bringing some quiet toys to bed to play with, reading another story, or getting up to play quietly or watch a movie. Try help her figure out what her getting-to-sleep routine looks like.
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "24hrmom"
<24hrmom@s...> wrote:
<<Your suggestion of laying down and rubbing her head worked well
that night, you knew she was tired. Other nights if she doesn't take
to that one, try some others you think she might be amenable to ...
bringing some quiet toys to bed to play with, reading another story,
or getting up to play quietly or watch a movie. Try help her figure
out what her getting-to-sleep routine looks like.>>
To add to that, you could help her figure out if there's something
that she wants to do before she sleeps, something she needs to make
the day feel complete? I can be dead tired at night, but if I
haven't checked my email, or written a few paragraphs, or read a bit
of a book that's just for me, I don't want to settle into bed until
I've done at least one of those things. But I might do them earlier
in the day, too, and then I'm fine to go right to bed -- I've had
that piece that rounds out my day. Fisher's the same way, but for
him it's playing with his pirate ship or other hands-on toys (as
opposed to video games, TV and play-acting pretend, his other main
activities). He just needs to have it sometime during the day for
life to feel whole.
Peace,
Amy
<24hrmom@s...> wrote:
<<Your suggestion of laying down and rubbing her head worked well
that night, you knew she was tired. Other nights if she doesn't take
to that one, try some others you think she might be amenable to ...
bringing some quiet toys to bed to play with, reading another story,
or getting up to play quietly or watch a movie. Try help her figure
out what her getting-to-sleep routine looks like.>>
To add to that, you could help her figure out if there's something
that she wants to do before she sleeps, something she needs to make
the day feel complete? I can be dead tired at night, but if I
haven't checked my email, or written a few paragraphs, or read a bit
of a book that's just for me, I don't want to settle into bed until
I've done at least one of those things. But I might do them earlier
in the day, too, and then I'm fine to go right to bed -- I've had
that piece that rounds out my day. Fisher's the same way, but for
him it's playing with his pirate ship or other hands-on toys (as
opposed to video games, TV and play-acting pretend, his other main
activities). He just needs to have it sometime during the day for
life to feel whole.
Peace,
Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/04 10:03:55 PM, myprettypony@... writes:
<< I don't know if others
are playing non-stop with their kids at 10-11pm or not but that
didn't seem possible for us. To play all day and into the night. >>
There are quiet ways to be together. There are quiet things for kids to do.
<<Two nights ago we told the girls they were going to stay up as late
as they wanted. They were like "ok". >>
Sudden departures aren't usually as appreciated as gradual moves toward
different ways of being. If you just say "yes" a hundred times along the way to
loosening up rules, you get a hundred happy moments. If you say "all I said
before is off now," you give one kind of baffling answer when there wasn't even a
question asked. "They were like 'ok'" isn't the "THANKS, MOM!" you could get
if you just move through a lot of "Sure, why not?" steps to get to your
destination.
-=- So it resulted
in tears. Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She
was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.
I asked Hannah if she wanted the bedtime again and she said yes. -=-
Three days isn't much adjustment time.
-=- I think the girls realized they don't want to stay up.-=-
They get a day older every day.
-=- My first
post made it seem worse than it may be. I try to always work things
out with the girls.-=-
With words but without facial expression and tone of voice, it's easy to see
something as lighter or heavier than it was intended.
I hope you all find a comfortable place about bedtimes. It won't be for
life, or even for years. It will be for a while, and things do change.
Sandra
<< I don't know if others
are playing non-stop with their kids at 10-11pm or not but that
didn't seem possible for us. To play all day and into the night. >>
There are quiet ways to be together. There are quiet things for kids to do.
<<Two nights ago we told the girls they were going to stay up as late
as they wanted. They were like "ok". >>
Sudden departures aren't usually as appreciated as gradual moves toward
different ways of being. If you just say "yes" a hundred times along the way to
loosening up rules, you get a hundred happy moments. If you say "all I said
before is off now," you give one kind of baffling answer when there wasn't even a
question asked. "They were like 'ok'" isn't the "THANKS, MOM!" you could get
if you just move through a lot of "Sure, why not?" steps to get to your
destination.
-=- So it resulted
in tears. Emme needs the routine. She was a mess without it. She
was even crying. I found her just sitting on the couch crying.
I asked Hannah if she wanted the bedtime again and she said yes. -=-
Three days isn't much adjustment time.
-=- I think the girls realized they don't want to stay up.-=-
They get a day older every day.
-=- My first
post made it seem worse than it may be. I try to always work things
out with the girls.-=-
With words but without facial expression and tone of voice, it's easy to see
something as lighter or heavier than it was intended.
I hope you all find a comfortable place about bedtimes. It won't be for
life, or even for years. It will be for a while, and things do change.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/14/04 7:17:12 AM, 24hrmom@... writes:
<< I think the unschooling idea of "no bedtimes" means getting rid of the
idea of an arbitrary time to go to bed just because of what time it is on the
clock.
It's not so much a change in schedule as a change in beliefs on the part of
the parent, and an examination of priorities.
If the child's comfort and learning outweigh the clock, then that will create
a set of principles to go by instead of just "It's bedtime" default behavior.
When my kids were little there was usually one nursling who was asleep
early, and so it was easy to get another one (or both, when it was Holly-baby) to
lie down then too. When they were older, if one wanted to stay up and play a
video game or watch TV, I'd make a futon-bed on the floor by the TV just in
case, and then that child had the option to go to sleep whenever, or go to sleep
during the movie, or to go and get in bed with parent(s) or other sibling(s).
That's a lot of choices, and our house was really small then, so we could all
hear each other easily if anyone called out.
Now that the kids are older, sometimes one's still up playing online games
when my husband leaves for work at 5:00 in the morning, but as long as they're
being considerate of sleeping others, it's okay. Our "noisy hours" are noon to
10:00 p.m.---that's when nobody has to be extra quiet just because someone's
sleeping. Those are the "sleep-at-your-own-risk hours. If everyone's still
awake, noise after 10:00 p.m. is okay too, as long as it can't be heard outside
the house). We're fortunate to have a bigger house now, and not attached to
neighbors' houses either.
Sandra
<< I think the unschooling idea of "no bedtimes" means getting rid of the
idea of an arbitrary time to go to bed just because of what time it is on the
clock.
>>Well put.
It's not so much a change in schedule as a change in beliefs on the part of
the parent, and an examination of priorities.
If the child's comfort and learning outweigh the clock, then that will create
a set of principles to go by instead of just "It's bedtime" default behavior.
When my kids were little there was usually one nursling who was asleep
early, and so it was easy to get another one (or both, when it was Holly-baby) to
lie down then too. When they were older, if one wanted to stay up and play a
video game or watch TV, I'd make a futon-bed on the floor by the TV just in
case, and then that child had the option to go to sleep whenever, or go to sleep
during the movie, or to go and get in bed with parent(s) or other sibling(s).
That's a lot of choices, and our house was really small then, so we could all
hear each other easily if anyone called out.
Now that the kids are older, sometimes one's still up playing online games
when my husband leaves for work at 5:00 in the morning, but as long as they're
being considerate of sleeping others, it's okay. Our "noisy hours" are noon to
10:00 p.m.---that's when nobody has to be extra quiet just because someone's
sleeping. Those are the "sleep-at-your-own-risk hours. If everyone's still
awake, noise after 10:00 p.m. is okay too, as long as it can't be heard outside
the house). We're fortunate to have a bigger house now, and not attached to
neighbors' houses either.
Sandra