Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Letting parents get in your head
Elizabeth Hill
** I don't think I ever really understood that my parent's
view of life and children in general is that there are rules attached to
everything. If you want to have a camera you better become a
world-renowned photographer. If you want tap shoes you better take
classes or you have no right to wear them. I'm not sure where this rule
structure came from, whether most people from their generation (the 50's
and 60's) have the same belief system or not.**
I think it comes from the Depression where wasting $20 was a tragedy and
being extremely frugal was highly moral because it was necessary for
survival.
My two cents,
Betsy
view of life and children in general is that there are rules attached to
everything. If you want to have a camera you better become a
world-renowned photographer. If you want tap shoes you better take
classes or you have no right to wear them. I'm not sure where this rule
structure came from, whether most people from their generation (the 50's
and 60's) have the same belief system or not.**
I think it comes from the Depression where wasting $20 was a tragedy and
being extremely frugal was highly moral because it was necessary for
survival.
My two cents,
Betsy
Mark and Rheta Wallingford
This comment by Pinkflyingponies made me think:
nursing past 3yrs. She has never approved of my parenting or my
decision to homeschool, she was on me for a bit about hannah going to
preschool. Saying that Hannah needs to go to preschool so that she
would learn to respect adults, and learn how other kids her age
should be.( I didn't realize ~hOw~ bad that sounded until I just
wrote it)<<
Recently we bought tap shoes for Isabel because they were the
"clackiest" shoes we could find. When she proudly showed them to my
parents they said in unison "Oh, are you taking tap dancing class?" We
all shook our head no and I saw my mom struggle for a second but she had
to lecture me about letting her have tap shoes without lessons. I said
"why would you squash the joy out of wearing a pair of tap shoes?" She
said it wasn't the way it was done. We discussed this again at a later
time and she said that children aren't taught anymore that achievement
comes only through hard work. I asked what that had to do with a pair
of tap shoes. She said we were never going to see eye to eye and that
was the end of it.
I used to try to defend my position to my parents (especially since I
told them I was not going to do school-at-home and they told me I had no
right to experiment on my children - but that's another on-going
discussion). I don't think I ever really understood that my parent's
view of life and children in general is that there are rules attached to
everything. If you want to have a camera you better become a
world-renowned photographer. If you want tap shoes you better take
classes or you have no right to wear them. I'm not sure where this rule
structure came from, whether most people from their generation (the 50's
and 60's) have the same belief system or not. I do see that it takes
the joy out of life and learning. Unschooling to them means letting a
child rule the house. Seen and not heard are what they believe in.
We went to dinner at their house and they expected my children to sit
still and eat until everyone was done. That's not what I expect at my
own house because if my dh and I want to talk, we'll sit there for
awhile. Same at my parents. There's always some long-winded discussion
going at dinner, this day was no different. When my children finished
they wanted to get up (especially my 2yo). I said I didn't feel the
necessity to make them sit through a discussion that they are not
"allowed" to participate in because they will be chastised for
"interrupting" when they had eaten and were done. My 2 yo is sitting
there crying because my mother was making her sit by not letting her get
down and giving me a hard time because she wanted to sit in my lap. I
snapped and asked why she had to be such a tyrant at the dinner table.
Granted, it wasn't a nice thing to say to my mom, but it was the only
word that fit. I don't want to be a dictator in my house and make my
kids do things just because I was told they should be done that way. My
5 yo got up to go to the bathroom - I didn't notice but my mom did - who
notices stuff like that and puts a black mark in their mental book?
Someone who thinks children are here to obey and by doing so become good
adults. Isn't that the same as what Deb's mom said about going to
preschool to learn to respect adults? Is respect learned by blindly
obeying? Or is it from being shown from the beginning that you are a
person with feelings and thoughts as much as anyone else around you.
Respect is learned by having your feelings and thoughts respected, too.
Not saying kids don't say "disrespectful" things but helping them to
realize that they have hurt someone else's feelings is how children
learn to respect others.
This got very long . I have been doing a lot of thinking about how I was
raised to view children by the way my parents raised me. I'm going
completely against my parents' grain by viewing my children as people
with thoughts and feelings. They don't "run" the house but they do
know their feelings and thoughts are as important as anyone else's in
the family. That they are part of our family and not just an extension
of myself and my dh. I think that is where my first paradigm shift took
place (this may be a personal shift others here have not needed to go
through but I needed to make it before I could even begin to get the
rest).
Rheta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>Now I feel really bad for this month of crazy bedtime demands. I letmy mother bother me. I was hiding the fact that Hannah was still
nursing past 3yrs. She has never approved of my parenting or my
decision to homeschool, she was on me for a bit about hannah going to
preschool. Saying that Hannah needs to go to preschool so that she
would learn to respect adults, and learn how other kids her age
should be.( I didn't realize ~hOw~ bad that sounded until I just
wrote it)<<
Recently we bought tap shoes for Isabel because they were the
"clackiest" shoes we could find. When she proudly showed them to my
parents they said in unison "Oh, are you taking tap dancing class?" We
all shook our head no and I saw my mom struggle for a second but she had
to lecture me about letting her have tap shoes without lessons. I said
"why would you squash the joy out of wearing a pair of tap shoes?" She
said it wasn't the way it was done. We discussed this again at a later
time and she said that children aren't taught anymore that achievement
comes only through hard work. I asked what that had to do with a pair
of tap shoes. She said we were never going to see eye to eye and that
was the end of it.
I used to try to defend my position to my parents (especially since I
told them I was not going to do school-at-home and they told me I had no
right to experiment on my children - but that's another on-going
discussion). I don't think I ever really understood that my parent's
view of life and children in general is that there are rules attached to
everything. If you want to have a camera you better become a
world-renowned photographer. If you want tap shoes you better take
classes or you have no right to wear them. I'm not sure where this rule
structure came from, whether most people from their generation (the 50's
and 60's) have the same belief system or not. I do see that it takes
the joy out of life and learning. Unschooling to them means letting a
child rule the house. Seen and not heard are what they believe in.
We went to dinner at their house and they expected my children to sit
still and eat until everyone was done. That's not what I expect at my
own house because if my dh and I want to talk, we'll sit there for
awhile. Same at my parents. There's always some long-winded discussion
going at dinner, this day was no different. When my children finished
they wanted to get up (especially my 2yo). I said I didn't feel the
necessity to make them sit through a discussion that they are not
"allowed" to participate in because they will be chastised for
"interrupting" when they had eaten and were done. My 2 yo is sitting
there crying because my mother was making her sit by not letting her get
down and giving me a hard time because she wanted to sit in my lap. I
snapped and asked why she had to be such a tyrant at the dinner table.
Granted, it wasn't a nice thing to say to my mom, but it was the only
word that fit. I don't want to be a dictator in my house and make my
kids do things just because I was told they should be done that way. My
5 yo got up to go to the bathroom - I didn't notice but my mom did - who
notices stuff like that and puts a black mark in their mental book?
Someone who thinks children are here to obey and by doing so become good
adults. Isn't that the same as what Deb's mom said about going to
preschool to learn to respect adults? Is respect learned by blindly
obeying? Or is it from being shown from the beginning that you are a
person with feelings and thoughts as much as anyone else around you.
Respect is learned by having your feelings and thoughts respected, too.
Not saying kids don't say "disrespectful" things but helping them to
realize that they have hurt someone else's feelings is how children
learn to respect others.
This got very long . I have been doing a lot of thinking about how I was
raised to view children by the way my parents raised me. I'm going
completely against my parents' grain by viewing my children as people
with thoughts and feelings. They don't "run" the house but they do
know their feelings and thoughts are as important as anyone else's in
the family. That they are part of our family and not just an extension
of myself and my dh. I think that is where my first paradigm shift took
place (this may be a personal shift others here have not needed to go
through but I needed to make it before I could even begin to get the
rest).
Rheta
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Rheta - I think you are so brave! Standing up to my parents and in-laws has been really hard for me, so I am really impressed by your post. One thought (that may or may not be helpful): I think going over to your mother's house is optional. In fact, having anything at all to do with your mother is optional. Who says you have to spend time with her? If you weren't related by blood, is she someone you would choose to spend time with? If she weren't realted to you, is she someone you would leave your children with? Personally, I avoid people who are out to "fix" me or my children. Maybe it's just that I know that my own self-esteem can't handle too many of these little attacks--those moments when someone questions how I am doing things. And I know that I am parenting in a completely different way than me or my husband were raised. Maybe I'm just trying to limit their influence by spending less and less time with them. But I do know for sure that I've got more important things to do than argue with someone about how I'm living my life. Deirdre
>
> From: "Mark and Rheta Wallingford" <wallingford@...>
>
> This got very long . I have been doing a lot of thinking about how I was
> raised to view children by the way my parents raised me. I'm going
> completely against my parents' grain by viewing my children as people
> with thoughts and feelings. They don't "run" the house but they do
> know their feelings and thoughts are as important as anyone else's in
> the family. That they are part of our family and not just an extension
> of myself and my dh. I think that is where my first paradigm shift took
> place (this may be a personal shift others here have not needed to go
> through but I needed to make it before I could even begin to get the
> rest).
>
>
> Rheta
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/04 7:19:30 AM, aycock@... writes:
<< One thought (that may or may not be helpful): I think going over to your
mother's house is optional. >>
We've had better luck in public places with the inlaws than at their house or
ours.
Sandra
<< One thought (that may or may not be helpful): I think going over to your
mother's house is optional. >>
We've had better luck in public places with the inlaws than at their house or
ours.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/04 9:31:25 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< I think it comes from the Depression where wasting $20 was a tragedy and
being extremely frugal was highly moral because it was necessary for
survival. >>
If they're that old, I think undoubtedly. But it was 50's and 60's in the
speculation:
-=-I'm not sure where this rule
structure came from, whether most people from their generation (the 50's
and 60's) have the same belief system or not.**-=-
Maybe THEY over-efficiently internalized their own depression-era parents.
My husband is much like a guy who lived through the depression. Why?
Genetics, maybe, in part. Both his parents' hobbies and focus involve not eating
much and not spending much. I was there one day when his dad finished a roll
of scotch tape (cheaper brand). He had noted the price and date and
roll-length, taped it on the dispenser with a SMALL piece of tape, and when he ran out,
he calculated how long it had lasted and what the price per foot had been, and
reported this to my mother in law, who seemed happily impressed.
They're in their late 80's. Their 56th wedding anniversary (maybe 57th) is
tomorrow.
Stereotypes or real causes? Nature or nurture? They've had the depression,
and WWII. He was a Navy recon pilot in the Pacific; she was a nurse. They
are of Scottish ancestry. They are Presbyterian.
They seem baffled that my kids have so much stuff.
They give checks for gifts.
We used to give them checks and now we don't. We were there one Christmas
when she laughed derisively at gifts from the other sons (who weren't there) so
I can only imagine if we hadn't been there ours would've gotten the same
treatment. (In fact one was returned to us while we were there, but politely, if
such a thing can be polite.)
They would not think tap shoes outside a tap-dance class or dance performance
would have any virtue or purpose.
I remember being a kid and taps were sold separately and could be put on any
shoes, and it was the fad for a while for older kids to put taps on their
shoes.
We used to try to get soda-pop lids to stick in our shoes sometimes just so
we'd make noise when we walked. <g>
-=- I don't think I ever really understood that my parent's
view of life and children in general is that there are rules attached to
everything. -=-
Some people just get in the habit of bitching about everything, though, and
maybe they don't realize they do it.
Sandra
<< I think it comes from the Depression where wasting $20 was a tragedy and
being extremely frugal was highly moral because it was necessary for
survival. >>
If they're that old, I think undoubtedly. But it was 50's and 60's in the
speculation:
-=-I'm not sure where this rule
structure came from, whether most people from their generation (the 50's
and 60's) have the same belief system or not.**-=-
Maybe THEY over-efficiently internalized their own depression-era parents.
My husband is much like a guy who lived through the depression. Why?
Genetics, maybe, in part. Both his parents' hobbies and focus involve not eating
much and not spending much. I was there one day when his dad finished a roll
of scotch tape (cheaper brand). He had noted the price and date and
roll-length, taped it on the dispenser with a SMALL piece of tape, and when he ran out,
he calculated how long it had lasted and what the price per foot had been, and
reported this to my mother in law, who seemed happily impressed.
They're in their late 80's. Their 56th wedding anniversary (maybe 57th) is
tomorrow.
Stereotypes or real causes? Nature or nurture? They've had the depression,
and WWII. He was a Navy recon pilot in the Pacific; she was a nurse. They
are of Scottish ancestry. They are Presbyterian.
They seem baffled that my kids have so much stuff.
They give checks for gifts.
We used to give them checks and now we don't. We were there one Christmas
when she laughed derisively at gifts from the other sons (who weren't there) so
I can only imagine if we hadn't been there ours would've gotten the same
treatment. (In fact one was returned to us while we were there, but politely, if
such a thing can be polite.)
They would not think tap shoes outside a tap-dance class or dance performance
would have any virtue or purpose.
I remember being a kid and taps were sold separately and could be put on any
shoes, and it was the fad for a while for older kids to put taps on their
shoes.
We used to try to get soda-pop lids to stick in our shoes sometimes just so
we'd make noise when we walked. <g>
-=- I don't think I ever really understood that my parent's
view of life and children in general is that there are rules attached to
everything. -=-
Some people just get in the habit of bitching about everything, though, and
maybe they don't realize they do it.
Sandra
Lisa H
<<We've had better luck in public places with the inlaws than at their house or ours.>>
We have learned not to leave my kids alone with mom when they are young. My mom is a wonderful woman and has much to offer my kids - i don't want to cut off their relationship but need to monitor or be there to protect my kids from some of her attitudes that i think are offensive to young children. I've attempted to talk to my mom about it but she feels criticized and gets defensive. I've gotten better at sharing my ideas with her without it being about her and her ways...but she still doesn't integrate my understandings into her behaviour. So, i continue to model (and be taken advantage of - according to her <g>) at the same time - she has expressed awe of my infinite patience. Patience has nothing to do with it (most of the time). I think once you have an understanding of being in the moment and living respectfully with all people you don't need "patience." For me, patience is called upon when expectations gets in the way of being in the moment and acceptance of individuality.
Now my mother adores being with my 10dd. She says she such a joy, so self expressive and interesting. (This is so funny considering my mother thinks unless someone has an advanced degree they are uneducated).
Lisa H.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have learned not to leave my kids alone with mom when they are young. My mom is a wonderful woman and has much to offer my kids - i don't want to cut off their relationship but need to monitor or be there to protect my kids from some of her attitudes that i think are offensive to young children. I've attempted to talk to my mom about it but she feels criticized and gets defensive. I've gotten better at sharing my ideas with her without it being about her and her ways...but she still doesn't integrate my understandings into her behaviour. So, i continue to model (and be taken advantage of - according to her <g>) at the same time - she has expressed awe of my infinite patience. Patience has nothing to do with it (most of the time). I think once you have an understanding of being in the moment and living respectfully with all people you don't need "patience." For me, patience is called upon when expectations gets in the way of being in the moment and acceptance of individuality.
Now my mother adores being with my 10dd. She says she such a joy, so self expressive and interesting. (This is so funny considering my mother thinks unless someone has an advanced degree they are uneducated).
Lisa H.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/13/04 9:42:37 AM, Lmanathome@... writes:
<< she has expressed awe of my infinite patience. Patience has nothing to
do with it (most of the time). I think once you have an understanding of being
in the moment and living respectfully with all people you don't need
"patience." >>
That's really interesting. I've had friends say I'm really patient with my
kids. I don't consider myself to be a very patient person. I don't like to
wait, I don't like to sit still, I'm easily frustrated. But maybe the way
you've worded your explanation gives me an idea of what my friends were saying with
"patient."
Maybe they had just never seen anyone be respectful with a child, and it
looked like patience.
When they saw, for example maybe, a little-boy Kirby trying over and over to
get a straw into a soda lid by himself and not wanting help, they saw him
taking too long, or "needing help" or wasting time or being in danger of spilling
a soda. I saw him as learning, and feeling big, and doing something on his
own, and it didn't matter to me if it took him five or ten minutes. The second
he got tired of it and asked for help I was ready to do it for him, but not a
moment before that. So that seemed like patience, maybe.
I'm glad for what you wrote because I had an unfinished stuck-thought about
it.
Sandra
<< she has expressed awe of my infinite patience. Patience has nothing to
do with it (most of the time). I think once you have an understanding of being
in the moment and living respectfully with all people you don't need
"patience." >>
That's really interesting. I've had friends say I'm really patient with my
kids. I don't consider myself to be a very patient person. I don't like to
wait, I don't like to sit still, I'm easily frustrated. But maybe the way
you've worded your explanation gives me an idea of what my friends were saying with
"patient."
Maybe they had just never seen anyone be respectful with a child, and it
looked like patience.
When they saw, for example maybe, a little-boy Kirby trying over and over to
get a straw into a soda lid by himself and not wanting help, they saw him
taking too long, or "needing help" or wasting time or being in danger of spilling
a soda. I saw him as learning, and feeling big, and doing something on his
own, and it didn't matter to me if it took him five or ten minutes. The second
he got tired of it and asked for help I was ready to do it for him, but not a
moment before that. So that seemed like patience, maybe.
I'm glad for what you wrote because I had an unfinished stuck-thought about
it.
Sandra