question about how people learn about unschooling
[email protected]
I have obtained permission to quote from a private e-mail, from a confident
unschooler who has spent a lot of time trying to help others get it. I had
some ideas about the answers, but I thought maybe people here could discuss it
and maybe shed more light on it.
"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the years.
Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying about doing a
lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being
said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the only two
possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
"What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over and
over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us. It's
really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
Sandra (who only wrote the first paragraph above and is quoting "anonymous"
on the other two)
unschooler who has spent a lot of time trying to help others get it. I had
some ideas about the answers, but I thought maybe people here could discuss it
and maybe shed more light on it.
"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the years.
Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying about doing a
lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being
said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the only two
possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
"What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over and
over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us. It's
really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
Sandra (who only wrote the first paragraph above and is quoting "anonymous"
on the other two)
Fetteroll
on 2/5/04 2:39 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
I try to explain it to someone else. I learn better by explaining than by
reading.
I think it's a matter of how some people learn. Reading lots of philosophy
and stories from other people isn't the same thing for them as having it
translated into someone's own situation.
almost always something different in each question. And posts are like
puzzles. It's a challenge to find all the pieces that fit together,
influencing each other, causing someone to think as they do.
And there are still some connections I need to make in order to explain
things better and each post gets me a little closer. Like the difference
between what we think we need and our personal boundaries. Describing how we
need to stop imposing our boundaries on kids often comes across as sounding
like we need to stop having boundaries. And how to tell people to stop doing
academic things to their kids without it sounding like stop doing things
with your kids. When they're thinking learning is doing academics, then
stopping that sounds like stopping everything :-/
So it doesn't bother me to answer the seemingly same question over and over
because they aren't ever the same question!
Joyce
> "I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the listsI know I've read lots of stuff, but it often doesn't mean much to me unless
> and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the years.
> Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat question.
> So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying about doing a lot
> of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being said
> unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the only two
> possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
I try to explain it to someone else. I learn better by explaining than by
reading.
I think it's a matter of how some people learn. Reading lots of philosophy
and stories from other people isn't the same thing for them as having it
translated into someone's own situation.
> "What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over andI nearly always find some new insight when I answer a question. There's
> over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
> the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us.
> It's
> really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
> lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
> longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
almost always something different in each question. And posts are like
puzzles. It's a challenge to find all the pieces that fit together,
influencing each other, causing someone to think as they do.
And there are still some connections I need to make in order to explain
things better and each post gets me a little closer. Like the difference
between what we think we need and our personal boundaries. Describing how we
need to stop imposing our boundaries on kids often comes across as sounding
like we need to stop having boundaries. And how to tell people to stop doing
academic things to their kids without it sounding like stop doing things
with your kids. When they're thinking learning is doing academics, then
stopping that sounds like stopping everything :-/
So it doesn't bother me to answer the seemingly same question over and over
because they aren't ever the same question!
Joyce
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
needing to interact with this new material, and to interact on an
emotional level. New unschoolers are learners -- when I was
considering whether or not to unschool, I read stuff all day every
day for weeks. I was passionate about it, immersed in it -- I
couldn't get to sleep at night because I needed to read "just one
more article" on it. I'd wake up thinking about it.
It felt like a lot. I've read much more since then.
And then when I posted to the list, I sure 'nough asked repeat
questions. (I hadn't seen them on the list in the 2 weeks I'd read,
though.) "Do you guys *really* have no restrictions on TV? Do you
*really* have no set bedtimes?" I thought I had read most of
Sandra's site (I hadn't -- there were some rather huge pockets I
hadn't found yet), but still, she was one person, and I didn't know
she was a big name in unschooling. And I thought I might be missing
something -- I didn't want to make these changes based on a
misunderstanding.
So I put my question out there, and got responses -- interactivity.
Real people, from Florida to Ontario, from New York to California,
saying, "Yes, what you read is true. It's not a trick. You won't be
ruining your child."
And the other thing they said? "Welcome." There was that emotional
element, too.
Peace,
Amy
> Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask arepeat
> question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they werelying about doing a
> lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate towhat's being
> said unless it's said directly to them?My response leans toward the latter, except I think it's a matter of
needing to interact with this new material, and to interact on an
emotional level. New unschoolers are learners -- when I was
considering whether or not to unschool, I read stuff all day every
day for weeks. I was passionate about it, immersed in it -- I
couldn't get to sleep at night because I needed to read "just one
more article" on it. I'd wake up thinking about it.
It felt like a lot. I've read much more since then.
And then when I posted to the list, I sure 'nough asked repeat
questions. (I hadn't seen them on the list in the 2 weeks I'd read,
though.) "Do you guys *really* have no restrictions on TV? Do you
*really* have no set bedtimes?" I thought I had read most of
Sandra's site (I hadn't -- there were some rather huge pockets I
hadn't found yet), but still, she was one person, and I didn't know
she was a big name in unschooling. And I thought I might be missing
something -- I didn't want to make these changes based on a
misunderstanding.
So I put my question out there, and got responses -- interactivity.
Real people, from Florida to Ontario, from New York to California,
saying, "Yes, what you read is true. It's not a trick. You won't be
ruining your child."
And the other thing they said? "Welcome." There was that emotional
element, too.
Peace,
Amy
Aimee
<<are some people simply unable to relate to what's
being
said unless it's said directly to them? >>
Maybe not "to" them, but *about* them and their
families?
I'm one of those people that will hear the same
thing over and over again, but until I can put it into
context in my REAL life, I won't "get it".
My son must have told me 15 times that CTRL + ENTER
is a shortcut key to put in http:/www....com in the IE
window, but until I wanted to use it, I couldn't
remember it.
Hey, we're unschoolers, is this really news? lol
~Aimee
being
said unless it's said directly to them? >>
Maybe not "to" them, but *about* them and their
families?
I'm one of those people that will hear the same
thing over and over again, but until I can put it into
context in my REAL life, I won't "get it".
My son must have told me 15 times that CTRL + ENTER
is a shortcut key to put in http:/www....com in the IE
window, but until I wanted to use it, I couldn't
remember it.
Hey, we're unschoolers, is this really news? lol
~Aimee
Erika Nunn
In regards to...
"Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying
about doing a lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to
what's being said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't
the only two possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me."
A few things popped into my head when I read this, and they are:
A) I am new to this list. I have done a lot of reading. I also was raised
completely opposite to what I am trying to achieve with my own family. In
my mind, I often feel like I have this battle going on between what I
instinctually know is right (and from what I have read), and my own
upbringing. So although I have read a lot and know where I am going, I also
have to struggle with responding to my children in ways that my own parents
responded to me.
B) Reading something and understanding it, and then actually living it are
two different things. I have come to this site to learn from parents who
have been unschooling for awhile and who have dealt with various situations,
to learn concrete ways that I can live peacefully with my own family. Like
I said before, I never have actually seen a family live peacefully. And
while I am not really "seeing" it on this message board, I am hearing
real-life situations that will more than likely occur in my own family
someday.
C) I love John Holt's books (and other's too - but especially John :).
And while I read them before I found this message board, it wasn't until I
started reading this board that I really started to "get" what he was saying
in relation to living in day-to-day life.
D) I am uncertain as to the "repeat question" remark. It isn't a repeat
question if the person has never asked it before.....? I am sure it is to
other people who have been on the board awhile, but that is to be expected,
right? Especially if this board is for explaining unschooling to other
people... Also, although I have read a lot about unschooling, there are
certain things that I never read in unschooling books that I have learned at
this message board - such as issues regarding eating, bedtimes, TV, etc.
Just my two cents.
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
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http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/WPI_WhereWillWeFindJobsIn2004.htm?siteid=CBMSN3006&sc_extcmp=JS_wi08_dec03_hotmail1
"Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying
about doing a lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to
what's being said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't
the only two possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me."
A few things popped into my head when I read this, and they are:
A) I am new to this list. I have done a lot of reading. I also was raised
completely opposite to what I am trying to achieve with my own family. In
my mind, I often feel like I have this battle going on between what I
instinctually know is right (and from what I have read), and my own
upbringing. So although I have read a lot and know where I am going, I also
have to struggle with responding to my children in ways that my own parents
responded to me.
B) Reading something and understanding it, and then actually living it are
two different things. I have come to this site to learn from parents who
have been unschooling for awhile and who have dealt with various situations,
to learn concrete ways that I can live peacefully with my own family. Like
I said before, I never have actually seen a family live peacefully. And
while I am not really "seeing" it on this message board, I am hearing
real-life situations that will more than likely occur in my own family
someday.
C) I love John Holt's books (and other's too - but especially John :).
And while I read them before I found this message board, it wasn't until I
started reading this board that I really started to "get" what he was saying
in relation to living in day-to-day life.
D) I am uncertain as to the "repeat question" remark. It isn't a repeat
question if the person has never asked it before.....? I am sure it is to
other people who have been on the board awhile, but that is to be expected,
right? Especially if this board is for explaining unschooling to other
people... Also, although I have read a lot about unschooling, there are
certain things that I never read in unschooling books that I have learned at
this message board - such as issues regarding eating, bedtimes, TV, etc.
Just my two cents.
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
What are the 5 hot job markets for 2004? Click here to find out.
http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/WPI_WhereWillWeFindJobsIn2004.htm?siteid=CBMSN3006&sc_extcmp=JS_wi08_dec03_hotmail1
Marti
At 02:39 PM 02/05/2004, you wrote:
matter how many times I've reviewed them before my trip.
I'm often pleasantly surprised to follow a link, or dig up a book or
article... and realize I looked at the resource a year or more ago. And it
makes so much more sense to me now...
assistance. I don't want to add to the confusion by displaying my
inexperienced thoughts.
So I keep quiet. And then find myself nodding happily to what someone else
has posted, or realizing that I've discovered yet another area that I need
to work on, and boy! am I glad I kept my mouth shut on this topic, or ....
Marti
Smithsburg MD
>are some people simply unable to relate to what's beingMaps make more sense to me when I'm actually driving in the territory, no
>said unless it's said directly to them?
matter how many times I've reviewed them before my trip.
I'm often pleasantly surprised to follow a link, or dig up a book or
article... and realize I looked at the resource a year or more ago. And it
makes so much more sense to me now...
>it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. SNIPI often defer to the "old-timers" because I feel so deficient in offering
>it has to get old for the rest of us.
assistance. I don't want to add to the confusion by displaying my
inexperienced thoughts.
So I keep quiet. And then find myself nodding happily to what someone else
has posted, or realizing that I've discovered yet another area that I need
to work on, and boy! am I glad I kept my mouth shut on this topic, or ....
Marti
Smithsburg MD
Holly Selden
I first heard about Unschooling about 3-4 years ago. A friend of mine was a practicing unschooler and told me a little about it. I was intrigued.
In the short time I've been on this list and reading websites, testimonials, etc....I have noticed a lot of the same questions/concerns tossed around.
For myself, I know that my upbringing has contributed a lot to my fears of "Am I really doing the right thing???", but I have simply to watch what's really happening to discover that I am, indeed, doing what's best for my family.
During the last week, I kept thinking "Man, if Nathan comes home and finds out I let Madison play video games all day...he's going to be really upset and I'm going to get a lecture on how irresponsible I'm being!!!"
Then I sat down and showed him some articles. Madison is an avid gamer. He always has been. I remember when he was 3 and we had a PlayStation. He would sit there and get so into playing that he'd forget he was potty trained. He was just flat out passionate about it. It drove me crazy. I kept saying "He's going to end up some veggie that's addicted to video games and never make anything of himself!!!!" He was only 3!!! I've still struggled with it over the years, but in making the decision to homeschool/unschool him, I have also forced myself to let go. To stop being my parents.
So how people learn about unschooling (this is stricty opinion) is by doing. It's a process. Although, I can honestly say that the instinct to reach for the nearest "seasoned" unschooler and say "OH PLEASE HELP ME!!! I'M SCARED!" is strong, I try to hold myself back and say "The info is here somewhere"...in other words..look before you leap.
I've ingested a lot of information over the last two weeks or so. It's helpful. It's still scary, but I did talk to my husband. I showed him the same articles I'd read. I told him about how Madison really needs to "de-school"..and you know what the result was? He was proud. He was proud of me for letting go and finally getting to know this really cool little boy I've got. We can't wait to get started on the other two :)
Holly Selden
Mom to Morgan Elaine, Madison William and Ayden Maxwell
In the short time I've been on this list and reading websites, testimonials, etc....I have noticed a lot of the same questions/concerns tossed around.
For myself, I know that my upbringing has contributed a lot to my fears of "Am I really doing the right thing???", but I have simply to watch what's really happening to discover that I am, indeed, doing what's best for my family.
During the last week, I kept thinking "Man, if Nathan comes home and finds out I let Madison play video games all day...he's going to be really upset and I'm going to get a lecture on how irresponsible I'm being!!!"
Then I sat down and showed him some articles. Madison is an avid gamer. He always has been. I remember when he was 3 and we had a PlayStation. He would sit there and get so into playing that he'd forget he was potty trained. He was just flat out passionate about it. It drove me crazy. I kept saying "He's going to end up some veggie that's addicted to video games and never make anything of himself!!!!" He was only 3!!! I've still struggled with it over the years, but in making the decision to homeschool/unschool him, I have also forced myself to let go. To stop being my parents.
So how people learn about unschooling (this is stricty opinion) is by doing. It's a process. Although, I can honestly say that the instinct to reach for the nearest "seasoned" unschooler and say "OH PLEASE HELP ME!!! I'M SCARED!" is strong, I try to hold myself back and say "The info is here somewhere"...in other words..look before you leap.
I've ingested a lot of information over the last two weeks or so. It's helpful. It's still scary, but I did talk to my husband. I showed him the same articles I'd read. I told him about how Madison really needs to "de-school"..and you know what the result was? He was proud. He was proud of me for letting go and finally getting to know this really cool little boy I've got. We can't wait to get started on the other two :)
Holly Selden
Mom to Morgan Elaine, Madison William and Ayden Maxwell
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:39 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] question about how people learn about unschooling
I have obtained permission to quote from a private e-mail, from a confident
unschooler who has spent a lot of time trying to help others get it. I had
some ideas about the answers, but I thought maybe people here could discuss it
and maybe shed more light on it.
"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the years.
Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying about doing a
lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being
said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the only two
possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
"What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over and
over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us. It's
really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
Sandra (who only wrote the first paragraph above and is quoting "anonymous"
on the other two)
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[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/04 7:42:44 PM, erikanunn@... writes:
<< It isn't a repeat
question if the person has never asked it before.....? >>
Good point. Holly has only seen two hamsters, and those in the past year. I
said "But you've seen pictures of them, right?" "Not really," she said.
So I wondered how a person could live in the world without seeing at least
pictures of hamsters, but I remembered she hasn't been here as long as I have
been.
Lots of people haven't seen snow. Most people have never been to Hawaii
(where lots of people haven't seen snow. <g>) So even people who've been on
earth a long time can totally miss out on things.
But then...
If Holly really cares about hamsters, she can look on websites and in books.
If I'm going to Hawaii I should study up a bit, at least geography and
history, so I don't ask them questions that are in the flyer in my hand, that they
might've answered 350 times before.
Sometimes people talk too much. I talk too much.
But sometimes people talk without meaning to. Or they don't figure out how
to have an exchange without nattering on. Lots of times people could just
think a little while and look for the answer to their question without asking it.
But it's true, if it's that person's first time to ask, they'll ask. Or
worse, they'll make the insulting suggestion that probably none of us have
considered that maybe our children can never get into college or get jobs, or that
because we focus too much on our children's comfort, that they'll never be able
to set an alarm and get to work, or asking questions in that way that suggests
the people they're coming to for help are probably really stupid. "How do
you expect a child to learn to read if you don't teach him?" Or "He won't find
math in the real world."
Those kinds of statements are the ones that bother me most. It would be like
someone coming to my house, me inviting them to eat, handing them a plate,
and them saying some pretty horrible things before the food's on it. I don't
know like what. Maybe like "Most people WASH their vegetables before they cook
them," or "chickens have to have the feathers and entrails removed before you
cook them" before they've even seen what's in the dish.
I know sometimes people come to unschooling discussions kind of distraught
and over-emotional. But if someone's really hungry, maybe he just needs to hold
his plate and smile quietly, and taste the food, and then decide whether to
eat it.
I have a huge amount of respect for La Leche League leaders who will help
other moms after their own kids are older. It's a sacrifice. Same with scout
leaders, and other volunteers who put their own time into organization and
meetings and cleanup and follow-up and hand-holding for people, few of whom know
how much is involved. At least on-line help can be done without dressing up
or leaving home.
Sandra
<< It isn't a repeat
question if the person has never asked it before.....? >>
Good point. Holly has only seen two hamsters, and those in the past year. I
said "But you've seen pictures of them, right?" "Not really," she said.
So I wondered how a person could live in the world without seeing at least
pictures of hamsters, but I remembered she hasn't been here as long as I have
been.
Lots of people haven't seen snow. Most people have never been to Hawaii
(where lots of people haven't seen snow. <g>) So even people who've been on
earth a long time can totally miss out on things.
But then...
If Holly really cares about hamsters, she can look on websites and in books.
If I'm going to Hawaii I should study up a bit, at least geography and
history, so I don't ask them questions that are in the flyer in my hand, that they
might've answered 350 times before.
Sometimes people talk too much. I talk too much.
But sometimes people talk without meaning to. Or they don't figure out how
to have an exchange without nattering on. Lots of times people could just
think a little while and look for the answer to their question without asking it.
But it's true, if it's that person's first time to ask, they'll ask. Or
worse, they'll make the insulting suggestion that probably none of us have
considered that maybe our children can never get into college or get jobs, or that
because we focus too much on our children's comfort, that they'll never be able
to set an alarm and get to work, or asking questions in that way that suggests
the people they're coming to for help are probably really stupid. "How do
you expect a child to learn to read if you don't teach him?" Or "He won't find
math in the real world."
Those kinds of statements are the ones that bother me most. It would be like
someone coming to my house, me inviting them to eat, handing them a plate,
and them saying some pretty horrible things before the food's on it. I don't
know like what. Maybe like "Most people WASH their vegetables before they cook
them," or "chickens have to have the feathers and entrails removed before you
cook them" before they've even seen what's in the dish.
I know sometimes people come to unschooling discussions kind of distraught
and over-emotional. But if someone's really hungry, maybe he just needs to hold
his plate and smile quietly, and taste the food, and then decide whether to
eat it.
I have a huge amount of respect for La Leche League leaders who will help
other moms after their own kids are older. It's a sacrifice. Same with scout
leaders, and other volunteers who put their own time into organization and
meetings and cleanup and follow-up and hand-holding for people, few of whom know
how much is involved. At least on-line help can be done without dressing up
or leaving home.
Sandra
Erika Nunn
This is in response to the question regarding if people are asking repeat
unschooling questions because they haven't read a lot, or just don't
comprehend ideas that don't relate to them....(not exactly what was written
before, but the general gist...)
Okay, so I was just folding my laundry and all of a sudden I realized, "That
Dodd! She just pulled a good one over on us! She's asking why us
unschooling people have to ask questions even though we just read tons of
books!"
And it seemed kind of like a question we would ask kids who are
schooled....."Well, you read all these books on algebra....why are you
asking MORE questions about how it relates to x, y, and z?"
I know Sandra wasn't really pulling our chain, but it made me think for a
bit.
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
Choose now from 4 levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - no more account
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unschooling questions because they haven't read a lot, or just don't
comprehend ideas that don't relate to them....(not exactly what was written
before, but the general gist...)
Okay, so I was just folding my laundry and all of a sudden I realized, "That
Dodd! She just pulled a good one over on us! She's asking why us
unschooling people have to ask questions even though we just read tons of
books!"
And it seemed kind of like a question we would ask kids who are
schooled....."Well, you read all these books on algebra....why are you
asking MORE questions about how it relates to x, y, and z?"
I know Sandra wasn't really pulling our chain, but it made me think for a
bit.
Erika :)
_________________________________________________________________
Choose now from 4 levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - no more account
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Lisa H
For me, learning something so often includes my asking a question about what was just said or read. My question is often simply rephrasing the point presented. It is a way for me to integrate information by using my own language and/or point of reference. Funny thing about this trait is that of the two people who have commented on this bothering them the most - one offered me a job and the other married me <g>.
Lisa Heyman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Heyman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Diane
I've been on these boards since my six-year-old was a toddler. I
consider myself a person who "gets it," but I know at times I don't.
Somebody else's problems often seem easier to me than my own, and when
I'm deep in the fray the solutions that were offered a week or a month
before don't seem to apply, or don't come to mind.
If it's getting annoyingly old, you could pause and let someone else
respond, or make your own personal FAQ with responses you can just cut
and paste (like Sandra's offering the relevant parts of her website in
response to repetitive questions).
As someone else said, the map is of much more use to me when I'm
actually driving the terrain than when I'm sitting in my comfortable
chair at home.
:-) Diane
consider myself a person who "gets it," but I know at times I don't.
Somebody else's problems often seem easier to me than my own, and when
I'm deep in the fray the solutions that were offered a week or a month
before don't seem to apply, or don't come to mind.
If it's getting annoyingly old, you could pause and let someone else
respond, or make your own personal FAQ with responses you can just cut
and paste (like Sandra's offering the relevant parts of her website in
response to repetitive questions).
As someone else said, the map is of much more use to me when I'm
actually driving the terrain than when I'm sitting in my comfortable
chair at home.
:-) Diane
>"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
>and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the years.
> Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
>question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying about doing a
>lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being
>said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the only two
>possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
>
>
>"What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over and
>over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
>the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us. It's
>really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
>lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
>longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 05/02/2004 21:20:30 Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
one of the first resources I came to. I think I asked all the dumb first
questions, and may yet have more up my sleeve(hope not). To me it all made sense, but
it took some time for me to realize that if I just shut up, the information
was there, and I like the taste of it very much.
The people who get incredulous(sp?) about the impossibility of unschooling
working and post the irritating posts seem to just not be ready yet? They
simply are not yet of the mindset to believe in it , perhaps. That may be why they
can't be quiet and read maybe?
this list has been a great jumping on point for me and pointed me in the
direction of many other great resources and given me great ideas, even the posts
from the people asking the irritating things teach me stuff, not the least of
which is how much patience the "old-timers" here must have.
Nancy, finished rambling in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>I know for me, I came here starving for talk about Unschooling, and it was
> I know sometimes people come to unschooling discussions kind of distraught
> and over-emotional. But if someone's really hungry, maybe he just needs to
> hold
> his plate and smile quietly, and taste the food, and then decide whether to
> eat it.
>
one of the first resources I came to. I think I asked all the dumb first
questions, and may yet have more up my sleeve(hope not). To me it all made sense, but
it took some time for me to realize that if I just shut up, the information
was there, and I like the taste of it very much.
The people who get incredulous(sp?) about the impossibility of unschooling
working and post the irritating posts seem to just not be ready yet? They
simply are not yet of the mindset to believe in it , perhaps. That may be why they
can't be quiet and read maybe?
this list has been a great jumping on point for me and pointed me in the
direction of many other great resources and given me great ideas, even the posts
from the people asking the irritating things teach me stuff, not the least of
which is how much patience the "old-timers" here must have.
Nancy, finished rambling in BC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/6/2004 4:48:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
HLSelden@... writes:
"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the
years.
Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying
about doing a
lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being
said unless it's said directly to them?
First, if all the questions have been asked and the answers are readily
available, why have a list like this or unschooling 101?
I could read every book ever written about engine repair but I think I'd
still have a hard time doing it until someone told me about their experience, how
they actually were successful at rebuilding a car engine on their own.
Maybe I'd believe that I COULD do it but maybe I'd doubt WHY I would want to.
After all, engine repair shops have been in the business for a long long
time, how could I EVER be as good? Sure some of them are really really bad and I
would never want them to work on my engine but how could I KNOW that I could
do this thing to perfection since I've never tried?
Sure I've read lots and lots about it and other people SAY they've done it,
but how did it REALLY turn out?
You make connections with others that have been where you want to be, you ask
questions, you listen, you respond, you ask some more, they might word it a
little differently so you finally understand that you CAN do this.
On some level you KNOW you can repair an engine. You can read, your hands
work fine, you can turn a wrench but what about all the little details? What
about all the people who tell you that you are insane for even thinking about
such a thing? There are places that stuff like that gets done and it's not done
at home by YOU. But you say, well, I've talked to ____________ and they've
did it. Then you tell them about another experience that someone else had and
how wonderfully it turned out. You build a sense of encouragement and a sense
of ability and confidence the more stories you hear, the more ways and tricks
(in the sense of things you've never thought about before to get you to where
you want to be).
Reading is certainly wonderful. It plants the seeds of WANT TO, even NEED
TO, unschool. BUT interaction with those who HAVE been there and are living
wonderful lives, is what gives the confidence that one CAN DO!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HLSelden@... writes:
"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the
years.
Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying
about doing a
lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's being
said unless it's said directly to them?
First, if all the questions have been asked and the answers are readily
available, why have a list like this or unschooling 101?
I could read every book ever written about engine repair but I think I'd
still have a hard time doing it until someone told me about their experience, how
they actually were successful at rebuilding a car engine on their own.
Maybe I'd believe that I COULD do it but maybe I'd doubt WHY I would want to.
After all, engine repair shops have been in the business for a long long
time, how could I EVER be as good? Sure some of them are really really bad and I
would never want them to work on my engine but how could I KNOW that I could
do this thing to perfection since I've never tried?
Sure I've read lots and lots about it and other people SAY they've done it,
but how did it REALLY turn out?
You make connections with others that have been where you want to be, you ask
questions, you listen, you respond, you ask some more, they might word it a
little differently so you finally understand that you CAN do this.
On some level you KNOW you can repair an engine. You can read, your hands
work fine, you can turn a wrench but what about all the little details? What
about all the people who tell you that you are insane for even thinking about
such a thing? There are places that stuff like that gets done and it's not done
at home by YOU. But you say, well, I've talked to ____________ and they've
did it. Then you tell them about another experience that someone else had and
how wonderfully it turned out. You build a sense of encouragement and a sense
of ability and confidence the more stories you hear, the more ways and tricks
(in the sense of things you've never thought about before to get you to where
you want to be).
Reading is certainly wonderful. It plants the seeds of WANT TO, even NEED
TO, unschool. BUT interaction with those who HAVE been there and are living
wonderful lives, is what gives the confidence that one CAN DO!
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
--- In [email protected], "Jen Garrison Stuber"
<<I'm considering working on a FAQ and a Bibliography (although if I
don't have to reinvent the wheel, just modify, I'm very ready to
steal good stuff).
Jen>>
Sandra's website is a good place to start. sandradodd.com
When I first discovered unschooling and knew that was how I wanted
to homeschool my DD, I then tried to explain it to my DH. He really
had a hard to "getting" what I was telling him. When I joined this
list and learned of Sandra's website, I printed several articles and
things for him to read.....that's when he "got" it.
Thanks Sandra!
Melissa
<<I'm considering working on a FAQ and a Bibliography (although if I
don't have to reinvent the wheel, just modify, I'm very ready to
steal good stuff).
Jen>>
Sandra's website is a good place to start. sandradodd.com
When I first discovered unschooling and knew that was how I wanted
to homeschool my DD, I then tried to explain it to my DH. He really
had a hard to "getting" what I was telling him. When I joined this
list and learned of Sandra's website, I printed several articles and
things for him to read.....that's when he "got" it.
Thanks Sandra!
Melissa
Deirdre Aycock
From: <SandraDodd@...>
just read for a while before posting. That was a great idea! Maybe you
could add to that standard email a suggestion that the new person go to
http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and read that website. I had never
heard of sandradodd.com until you sent someone there instead of repeating
yourself--maybe the other new folks don't know about it either. What an
awesome resource! It'll take me awhile to read everything I want to at that
website, but are there other websites like it? Maybe you could
automatically give us newbies a list of websites!
Deirdre in Alabama
> "I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or thelists
> and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over theyears.
> Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeatWhen I first subscribed to this list I got the email that suggested that I
> question.
just read for a while before posting. That was a great idea! Maybe you
could add to that standard email a suggestion that the new person go to
http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and read that website. I had never
heard of sandradodd.com until you sent someone there instead of repeating
yourself--maybe the other new folks don't know about it either. What an
awesome resource! It'll take me awhile to read everything I want to at that
website, but are there other websites like it? Maybe you could
automatically give us newbies a list of websites!
Deirdre in Alabama
Ren
I had written a long and glorius response to this...and LOST IT!
I'm just not in the mood to try and recreate what I said...way too much work.
I had a piece of what Erika wrote and expounded upon her thoughts in #1 of her list, and how I still battle the things I learned as a child, rather than doing what I KNOW is right and good.
I had read so much John Holt when we started in 1996, but just didn't GET that I had to actually live the way those he was talking about were living, I couldn't get the results without living the lifestyle FIRST.
I didn't see the results in my ds, so I thought I had to push him.
So sad.
Anyhoo...why people don't want to accept that unschooling could work all relates to FEAR in my opinion. Fear that their children will be failures, fear to step out of the comfortable bounds of society, fear that someone will think they're not being "good" parents etc....
'Course, that's why I wrote an article about it:
http://addy.com/mhegener/HEM/202/marunning.html
So having been there myself, I do understand why some folks take longer to connect the dots. It took me several years to totally 100% GET IT. But I wasn't here blathering on about how nuts you all were either..... I did question a lot, because the unschooling was pretty easy for me, the part that was hard was how the philosophies apply to everything, including chores, food etc...
Ren
"I never teach my pupils; I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn."
Albert Einstein
I'm just not in the mood to try and recreate what I said...way too much work.
I had a piece of what Erika wrote and expounded upon her thoughts in #1 of her list, and how I still battle the things I learned as a child, rather than doing what I KNOW is right and good.
I had read so much John Holt when we started in 1996, but just didn't GET that I had to actually live the way those he was talking about were living, I couldn't get the results without living the lifestyle FIRST.
I didn't see the results in my ds, so I thought I had to push him.
So sad.
Anyhoo...why people don't want to accept that unschooling could work all relates to FEAR in my opinion. Fear that their children will be failures, fear to step out of the comfortable bounds of society, fear that someone will think they're not being "good" parents etc....
'Course, that's why I wrote an article about it:
http://addy.com/mhegener/HEM/202/marunning.html
So having been there myself, I do understand why some folks take longer to connect the dots. It took me several years to totally 100% GET IT. But I wasn't here blathering on about how nuts you all were either..... I did question a lot, because the unschooling was pretty easy for me, the part that was hard was how the philosophies apply to everything, including chores, food etc...
Ren
"I never teach my pupils; I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn."
Albert Einstein
J. Stauffer
<<<< But if someone's really hungry, maybe he just needs to hold
entire lives over the years but I am continually looking for where I am
still resisting...still controlling...how to handle various situations
better.
Sometimes the repeated questions let me look at things at a slightly
different angle which helps me tremendously. Some threads I immediately
pass over ( been there, done that) and others I know the information but I
find myself reading them anyway. For me, it is almost a way for me to see
where I am on this journey our family is taking.
It is kind of like listening to tourists ask the locals where the good
places to eat are. You may have driven past a restaurant over and over and
not given it a thought but then you hear someone talking about it and
suddenly you look at the place a little differently.
Julie S.
> his plate and smile quietly, and taste the food, and then decide whetherto
> eat it.>>>>I am a committed unschooler. Unschooling has evolved to influence our
entire lives over the years but I am continually looking for where I am
still resisting...still controlling...how to handle various situations
better.
Sometimes the repeated questions let me look at things at a slightly
different angle which helps me tremendously. Some threads I immediately
pass over ( been there, done that) and others I know the information but I
find myself reading them anyway. For me, it is almost a way for me to see
where I am on this journey our family is taking.
It is kind of like listening to tourists ask the locals where the good
places to eat are. You may have driven past a restaurant over and over and
not given it a thought but then you hear someone talking about it and
suddenly you look at the place a little differently.
Julie S.
J. Stauffer
<<<<My question is often simply rephrasing the point presented. It is a way
for me to integrate information by using my own language and/or point of
reference. >>>>
My son does this. It drove me absolutely bonkers until I figured out why he
was doing it. It is like he has a pre-set outline that information must fit
in for it to make sense to him.
He also does this about "the schedule" of the day. He wants to know when,
where, why, who, etc. in great detail when usually those details are
unknowns.
Julie S.
for me to integrate information by using my own language and/or point of
reference. >>>>
My son does this. It drove me absolutely bonkers until I figured out why he
was doing it. It is like he has a pre-set outline that information must fit
in for it to make sense to him.
He also does this about "the schedule" of the day. He wants to know when,
where, why, who, etc. in great detail when usually those details are
unknowns.
Julie S.
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/6/04 2:55:21 AM, garrisonstuber@... writes:
<< At present, I'm working to articulate unschooling to folks who haven't
read ANYTHING about unschooling and can't possibly make the paradigm
shift (which you would think is a silly thing). >>
For me it was easy because I had been trained in open-classroom philosophy in
the early 1970's, and there is a lot of educational research from the late
60's and early 70's that supports that. So if your audience is older (45+) and
has been following education all those years, if you say "Like the school
reformers of the 60's and 70's..." or "Open classroom" and that opens a flood of
info for them.
If they're younger, it's harder.
Sandra
<< At present, I'm working to articulate unschooling to folks who haven't
read ANYTHING about unschooling and can't possibly make the paradigm
shift (which you would think is a silly thing). >>
For me it was easy because I had been trained in open-classroom philosophy in
the early 1970's, and there is a lot of educational research from the late
60's and early 70's that supports that. So if your audience is older (45+) and
has been following education all those years, if you say "Like the school
reformers of the 60's and 70's..." or "Open classroom" and that opens a flood of
info for them.
If they're younger, it's harder.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/6/04 2:56:08 AM, Lmanathome@... writes:
<< For me, learning something so often includes my asking a question about
what was just said or read. My question is often simply rephrasing the point
presented. It is a way for me to integrate information by using my own language
and/or point of reference. Funny thing about this trait is that of the two
people who have commented on this bothering them the most - one offered me a
job and the other married me <g>.
If one really wants clarification it's less irritating than if one has the
conversational habit of echoing, to keep the conversation going. I have
always QUITE despised the therapists' tool of repeating a question back *when* it
is used thoughtlessly.
If someone says something they didn't hear themselves say and a therapists
says "So you're saying you have plans for when your mother dies?" that's one
thing. <g>
If they say, "So you're saying you don't like potatoes?" when the person has
just said "I don't like potatoes," it probably means they're thinking about
their car payment, and have learned a trick which makes it seem they're
listening.
-=- My question is often simply rephrasing the point presented. It is a way
for me to integrate information by using my own language and/or point of
reference. -=-
When people are dealing in writing, it seems that some people's personal ways
of integrating information could be done on the side, in journal/notetaking
style instead of to the whole group. OR NOT! Sometimes one person's request
for clarification is a great relief to 35 lurkers who were too shy to ask.
Sandra
<< For me, learning something so often includes my asking a question about
what was just said or read. My question is often simply rephrasing the point
presented. It is a way for me to integrate information by using my own language
and/or point of reference. Funny thing about this trait is that of the two
people who have commented on this bothering them the most - one offered me a
job and the other married me <g>.
>>So you must have redeeming characteristics. <g>
If one really wants clarification it's less irritating than if one has the
conversational habit of echoing, to keep the conversation going. I have
always QUITE despised the therapists' tool of repeating a question back *when* it
is used thoughtlessly.
If someone says something they didn't hear themselves say and a therapists
says "So you're saying you have plans for when your mother dies?" that's one
thing. <g>
If they say, "So you're saying you don't like potatoes?" when the person has
just said "I don't like potatoes," it probably means they're thinking about
their car payment, and have learned a trick which makes it seem they're
listening.
-=- My question is often simply rephrasing the point presented. It is a way
for me to integrate information by using my own language and/or point of
reference. -=-
When people are dealing in writing, it seems that some people's personal ways
of integrating information could be done on the side, in journal/notetaking
style instead of to the whole group. OR NOT! Sometimes one person's request
for clarification is a great relief to 35 lurkers who were too shy to ask.
Sandra
Danielle Conger
I think part of it is that newcomers just need reassurance from real live people when they're starting off--all the reading in the world isn't the same as personal reassurance. Unschooling goes against what society and loved ones say is "right" and "good" for children. Newbies just need to hear from people living this right now that they are not going to screw up their kids, the kind of rhetoric probably being flung at them from lots of directions. They're in that hand-holding phase where advice needs to be tailored to their lives. Whether veterans really want to continue this coddling is a whole 'nother question. *g* It's like when people join twelve step programs and get a sponsor to check in with daily. Veteran unschoolers are sponsoring new unschoolers, holding their hands and reassuring them on their journey.
--danielle
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--danielle
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over and[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
>the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us. It's
>really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
>lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
>longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
kayb85
I think it's because human beings have a need for community.
Younger, unexperienced people have a need for older, more experienced
people to show them how to do things and hold their hands and assure
them. I think that's why we have grandparents. :) Unfortunately in
today's society we often don't have grandparents living nearby their
grandkids, or the grandparents are working or don't have the
experience needed to help people. (If Grandma didn't breastfeed or
cook from scratch or sew, she can't pass those skills down to her
grandkids)
I have a huge mental block when it comes to sewing. I've read books
and websites, I've read my sewing machine instruction book, but I
couldn't figure out how to thread my bobbin. And once I took the
bobbin compartment apart, I couldn't figure out how to put it back
together again. The diagrams in the instruction book didn't help me
and my very non-technical brain couldn't figure it out. I'm an
otherwise intelligent person, but I have huge difficulties figuring
out how to sew. So last time dd had pants she wanted hemmed, I
called a friend. I made her lunch, her kids played with my kids, and
she patiently helped me through all the steps so that I could hem the
pants.
There is a lot of literature available about breastfeeding. But La
Leche league exists even though people could just read The Womanly
Art of Breastfeeding.
When dd wanted to make pancakes for the first time, she read the
cookbook but still wanted me to stand with her and encourage her as
she made them. "I can flip them now?" "Yes, I told you, as soon as
you see bubbles". "There are bubbles here, but are there enough
bubbles?" "Yes, go ahead and flip them." "What if the pancake
breaks when I flip it?" "That would be ok, it will still taste just
as good." "So I should flip it?" "Yes, go ahead and flip it." And
she finally did.
Sheila
Younger, unexperienced people have a need for older, more experienced
people to show them how to do things and hold their hands and assure
them. I think that's why we have grandparents. :) Unfortunately in
today's society we often don't have grandparents living nearby their
grandkids, or the grandparents are working or don't have the
experience needed to help people. (If Grandma didn't breastfeed or
cook from scratch or sew, she can't pass those skills down to her
grandkids)
I have a huge mental block when it comes to sewing. I've read books
and websites, I've read my sewing machine instruction book, but I
couldn't figure out how to thread my bobbin. And once I took the
bobbin compartment apart, I couldn't figure out how to put it back
together again. The diagrams in the instruction book didn't help me
and my very non-technical brain couldn't figure it out. I'm an
otherwise intelligent person, but I have huge difficulties figuring
out how to sew. So last time dd had pants she wanted hemmed, I
called a friend. I made her lunch, her kids played with my kids, and
she patiently helped me through all the steps so that I could hem the
pants.
There is a lot of literature available about breastfeeding. But La
Leche league exists even though people could just read The Womanly
Art of Breastfeeding.
When dd wanted to make pancakes for the first time, she read the
cookbook but still wanted me to stand with her and encourage her as
she made them. "I can flip them now?" "Yes, I told you, as soon as
you see bubbles". "There are bubbles here, but are there enough
bubbles?" "Yes, go ahead and flip them." "What if the pancake
breaks when I flip it?" "That would be ok, it will still taste just
as good." "So I should flip it?" "Yes, go ahead and flip it." And
she finally did.
Sheila
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I have obtained permission to quote from a private e-mail, from a
confident
> unschooler who has spent a lot of time trying to help others get
it. I had
> some ideas about the answers, but I thought maybe people here could
discuss it
> and maybe shed more light on it.
>
> "I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or
the lists
> and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over
the years.
> Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a
repeat
> question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were
lying about doing a
> lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to
what's being
> said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the
only two
> possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
>
>
> "What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff]
over and
> over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording
it. I know
> the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest
of us. It's
> really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually
think about,
> lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this
a lot
> longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "
>
>
> Sandra (who only wrote the first paragraph above and is
quoting "anonymous"
> on the other two)
tjreynoso
>or the lists
> "I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards
> and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly overthe years.
> Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask arepeat
> question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they werelying about doing a
> lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate towhat's being
> said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't theonly two
> possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.Aside from what everyone already responded, I'd like to add that
>
everyone has different home situations and sometimes need help
applying general information to their specific situation. For
example, I work full time so I might have the same question as
someone who doesn't but in a different context. Most of the time
books and articles are geared towards a particular audience and some
people don't exactly fit that audience to the tee. So they'll have
the same question but might need a slightly different answer.
Tanya
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/6/04 2:52:52 AM, erikanunn@... writes:
<< Okay, so I was just folding my laundry and all of a sudden I realized,
"That
Dodd! She just pulled a good one over on us! She's asking why us
unschooling people have to ask questions even though we just read tons of
books!" >>
Good theory, but no!
If anything, it's more like asking people who calmed to have read a ton of
books to actually read them, and maybe even think about them!! <g>
The complaint didn't come from me, I was just sharing what someone had
written in private e-mail. I figured my own theories weren't sufficient and by
asking in public it would not only help more experienced unschoolers know they
weren't the only ones who get tired of the same answers, but to kinda
pep-rally-up their enthusiasm to keep doing it a while.
And maybe at the same time, some of the people who tend to ask the same
questions they know are answered elsewhere could consider waiting a day each time
and seeing if the answers don't present themselves.
Other than that, I just figured it would be something to make everybody think
about how learning works when someone's in a hurry to learn something and
they go to the resources they can find.
What I wrote back, now that others have put forth their ideas and theories,
was that some people want to be spoonfed. Not the most charitable analysis,
but on the other hand it's frustrating when a mom says "How will my children
learn unless I spoon-feed it to them?" and my thought is "Maybe she hasn't
experienced learning without it being dolloped out bit by bit herself."
And there have been moms come through and leave in a huffy fury that we're
hypocrites because we *claim* to be patient and to let our children learn at
their own pace, but we're not that nice to the moms on the list.
That irritates me anew every time, because the moms on the list are NOT my
young children, they are themselves the mothers of young children and I don't
have time to help them through Piaget's stages of mental development (their own,
I mean). They're past that. They're asking an adult question of adults, and
I want them to take the answers like an adult with a mission and go and use
them.
Maybe I'm expecting too much sometimes.
Sandra
<< Okay, so I was just folding my laundry and all of a sudden I realized,
"That
Dodd! She just pulled a good one over on us! She's asking why us
unschooling people have to ask questions even though we just read tons of
books!" >>
Good theory, but no!
If anything, it's more like asking people who calmed to have read a ton of
books to actually read them, and maybe even think about them!! <g>
The complaint didn't come from me, I was just sharing what someone had
written in private e-mail. I figured my own theories weren't sufficient and by
asking in public it would not only help more experienced unschoolers know they
weren't the only ones who get tired of the same answers, but to kinda
pep-rally-up their enthusiasm to keep doing it a while.
And maybe at the same time, some of the people who tend to ask the same
questions they know are answered elsewhere could consider waiting a day each time
and seeing if the answers don't present themselves.
Other than that, I just figured it would be something to make everybody think
about how learning works when someone's in a hurry to learn something and
they go to the resources they can find.
What I wrote back, now that others have put forth their ideas and theories,
was that some people want to be spoonfed. Not the most charitable analysis,
but on the other hand it's frustrating when a mom says "How will my children
learn unless I spoon-feed it to them?" and my thought is "Maybe she hasn't
experienced learning without it being dolloped out bit by bit herself."
And there have been moms come through and leave in a huffy fury that we're
hypocrites because we *claim* to be patient and to let our children learn at
their own pace, but we're not that nice to the moms on the list.
That irritates me anew every time, because the moms on the list are NOT my
young children, they are themselves the mothers of young children and I don't
have time to help them through Piaget's stages of mental development (their own,
I mean). They're past that. They're asking an adult question of adults, and
I want them to take the answers like an adult with a mission and go and use
them.
Maybe I'm expecting too much sometimes.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deirdre Aycock" <aycock@...>
** I had never
> heard of sandradodd.com until you sent someone there instead of repeating
> yourself--maybe the other new folks don't know about it either. What an
> awesome resource! It'll take me awhile to read everything I want to at
that
website, but are there other websites like it? **
I think this is worth repeating. Sandra also has so many other related
links there too. Ones that relate to unschooling, but really don't
literally relate to unschooling. <g> Ones on peaceful living and
respectful parenting. All sorts of offshoots. I remember when I first
started reading about unschooling and found her site. I think I read for 3
hours one night, just going from one link to another. Then the next
night I read and read at the unschooling.com message boards. That can go on
for hours and hours also.
Another thing that really helped me were tapes. Her peaceful parenting tape
is great. Also Anne O has some great parenting tapes that helped me to get
to a place where I could understand, feel comfortable and *live*
unschooling.
I think all of these resources can help a person get to that happy
unschooling place. Discussion lists, message boards, tapes, books, and
of course meeting these people, in person, at conferences. :)
Kelli~
[email protected]
>>>>In a message dated 2/5/2004 3:44:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,SandraDodd@... writes:
"I've been thinking about all the people that come to the boards or the lists
and ask the same questions that have been answered repeatedly over the years.
Some claim to have done LOTS of reading, but then still ask a repeat
question. So, do you think this is due to laziness and they were lying about
doing a lot of reading, or are some people simply unable to relate to what's
being
said unless it's said directly to them? I know these aren't the only two
possibilities, but they seem the most likely to me.
"What do you think? I'm finding myself saying the same old [stuff] over and
over, and it's getting hard to come up with new ways of wording it. I know
the new people don't realize it, but it has to get old for the rest of us.
It's
really cool when someone asks something that I have to actually think about,
lol. I can only imagine how you must feel. You've been doing this a lot
longer than I have, and I'm feeling a little burnt out sometimes. "<<<<<
When I first read this, I thought *I* might have written it in a daze or
while sleeping and had just forgotten I'd written it! <G>
To me, the problem is not necessarily the same "idea"----it's the same damned
QUESTION. Word for word. No alterations. Sometimes the child-in-question is
the *same* age and gender as the child who was discussed the *last* time it was
brought up (not to mention the month or season before). Did the questioner
REALLY read last week's posts? Really? REALLY???
I realize that the questioner maybe *has* read for a week or two (not just
the daily posts, but also the archives) and that maybe she's thought about what
she's read. But she wants to know that it'll ALSO work in *her* family. Well,
we're all willing to say YES, it can. Again. It can. We can NOT tell her
exactly how it will work. We can't even tell her definitively that it will
work----if she doesn't DO the work. We can tell her again and again that it *has*
worked in our families and how. We can tell her that it can work if she's willing
to trust and respect her children and the process. But it really won't be any
different from the way we told the last person. (Except for Joyce----she can
pull another great analogy out of her butt every single DAY!)
Sometimes, I'm willing to "do it again" and sometimes I'm not. I'm about to
the point where I'm NOT. I just want to scream, "READ!" And then I'll just
watch Joyce and Sandra and Deb and and Mary and Tia and Kathryn and Pam(s) and
Ren and Rue and Lyle and ... do it all over again.
I'm on Unschooling-101 because I feel that "someone" has to be there (other
than Joyce and Deb). Otherwise it's overrun by NON-unschoolers giving really
bad advice----which has happened!
If there weren't ---what did someone call us? Professional unschoolers? <g>
If there weren't "seasoned/experienced/got-it unschoolers" around to answer the
same questions over and over, what would happen to all the potential
unschoolers? They'd HAVE to read what others had already written (in the archives)
---just like many of the old-timers did before the 'net (when they just had GWS
and a few books)!
If other experienced unschoolers like this original poster *are* getting
burnt out and exhausted, there'll be fewer and fewer experienced unschoolers to
help. Burn out is burn out! What if we ALL quit? (won't happen, but you know...)
There will (I hope! <g>) always be experienced unschoolers around to help the
newbies. It's a passion! But the burn out factor IS there! I think that you
should definitely ask a question if you have one----ALWAYS. BUT! If you can
find the answer in the same spot without asking the *same* question,
well----isn't that better? MUST it be explained *just* to you? To your exact
specifications? Can't you take what you read and translate it into your situation? You're
going to have to anyway because EACH family is different: there are no two
alike!
That's one of the "issues" that comes up here often: that some poster's
advice/writing style/inspiration is not what *you* wanted to hear. Well, then the
next poster might be "just what you needed"---or the next or the next or the
next. And the first poster might have been spot on with someone else. If we
lose one, well.......
The advice and inspiration here is free. My fear is that when an experienced
unschooler has had enough of the same-old-same-old,.....well, I'd HATE to lose
that poster! Each experienced unschooler is invaluable to this process of
nurturing newbies. Each one! Because *that* experienced poster's advice might be
the one that's so inspiring to YOU.
So! <g> Please read, read, and read some more----not just the daily posts,
which can indeed be daunting all by themselves: this is a *very* active list.
But read the archives at the site. Follow threads that interest you or that
address your concerns. It's rare that a new issue comes up. They happen, but it's
rare. Spanking, chores, reading, bedtimes, algebra, in-laws, alarm clocks,
spouses, etc.----they've all been discussed again and again. After you've read
and read, it'll be a part of you and you can even start *quoting* some of these
brilliant people. We'll still be here for your more pressing concerns (that
we'd LOVE to explore---we're always up for a *new* challenge! <G>).
I guess we're between a rock and a hard place: if you don't ask questions,
we're here twiddling our thumbs. If you ask the SAME questions that have been
repeatedly answered, we'll burn out. I guess my suggestion is this: read until
you're blind! <g> Then if you STILL have questions, challenge us! <G>
I've probably muddied the situation even more, but I know where this note to
Sandra came from. I've been there. I don't want newbies to quit asking; I just
want them to think about their situation a bit more before jumping in with
the same word-for-word questions. I WANT to help; I really do. I enjoy it. I
wouldn't be here ever day if I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have put on the
conferences! But the "if I let him, he would________ all day" ....well, I find it
hysterical that Sandra's finally started a list of those! We hear it so much!
<G>
Your situation *is* different from the last poster's, but our advice can't
change much: we're still describing our own families and what *we've* done/can
do! It's all we have! You're going to *have* to tweak our advice anyway to fit
your family. Try it ----or at least THINK about it----before you ask the same
question.
~VERY respectfully, Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/6/04 8:40:13 AM, aycock@... writes:
<< What an
awesome resource! It'll take me awhile to read everything I want to at that
website, but are there other websites like it? >>
There are some other homeschooling-moms', they're listed at the bottom of
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
but none is as solidly unschooling as mine (Kathy Ward's maybe)
And if you want to receive notices of new additions to my site, send e-mail to
[email protected]
Sandra
<< What an
awesome resource! It'll take me awhile to read everything I want to at that
website, but are there other websites like it? >>
There are some other homeschooling-moms', they're listed at the bottom of
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
but none is as solidly unschooling as mine (Kathy Ward's maybe)
And if you want to receive notices of new additions to my site, send e-mail to
[email protected]
Sandra
tjreynoso
Maybe you could think of all those repeated questions as training
for new "experienced" unschoolers. It gives someone else to get
their feet wet. And the "big guns" can handle the tough ones.
Tanya
for new "experienced" unschoolers. It gives someone else to get
their feet wet. And the "big guns" can handle the tough ones.
Tanya
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/6/04 8:40:13 AM, aycock@... writes:
<< Maybe you could
automatically give us newbies a list of websites! >>
We need a list FAQ!
(I say that sheepishly, since I should've been drafting one.)
A list of other sources is a good thing to have there.
What else should we have there? Answers to the repeating questions!
Like....
(What questions/answers should this FAQ have? and the modern days of the
internet allow FAQs to be full of links!)
Sandra
<< Maybe you could
automatically give us newbies a list of websites! >>
We need a list FAQ!
(I say that sheepishly, since I should've been drafting one.)
A list of other sources is a good thing to have there.
What else should we have there? Answers to the repeating questions!
Like....
(What questions/answers should this FAQ have? and the modern days of the
internet allow FAQs to be full of links!)
Sandra
Jon and Rue Kream
I don't get tired of answering the same questions (which I do more of on
another list because by the time I read these messages someone's already
written what I would've said <G>) because it helps me tune my thinking
and keeps me mindful of how I'm relating to my family, and I hope that
it helps somebody's children to have a better life.
I think if I did feel burnt-out about it I would stop doing it for a
while. There are enough people who 'get it' that it's ok if one
person's voice isn't heard for a while. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
another list because by the time I read these messages someone's already
written what I would've said <G>) because it helps me tune my thinking
and keeps me mindful of how I'm relating to my family, and I hope that
it helps somebody's children to have a better life.
I think if I did feel burnt-out about it I would stop doing it for a
while. There are enough people who 'get it' that it's ok if one
person's voice isn't heard for a while. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]