unolist

oh, where do i begin. you will probably hear some guilty confessions
in this, but being honest is the only way i can ever get past a stuck
point.

my kid. she is one tough cookie. when i hear about all these
wonderful unschooling kids, and have a really tough day with my kid,
i tell myself, oh their kids can't be this difficult. they must have
easy going, highly motivated, don't have to worry too much about
kids.

i know some people here probably detest labels, but sometimes it's
all i can do to find a particular description of her personality to
try to understand why she is the way she is. when she was in school,
i thought it was ADHD. when she came home, i started thinking it was
Oppositional-Defiant. Now I'm convinced she is just plain old Passive-
Aggressive. Stubborn, procrastinates, makes excuses, blames others
for her problems, doesn't take much accountability, promises to
change and and begs for second chances, and get's into a "poor me"
speech. So much negativity and and manipulation, lots of faulty
thinking patterns (extreme all or none, magnification, projection,
denial, can you tell i loved psychology at one point?)

my kid is not all bad. she has improved some things since she came
home from school. like the encopresis(chronic constipation and
soiling because she refused to go to the bathroom on time) and
enuresis(daytime leaking urine) but some days it's hard to remember
the all the good things about her. it's hard to talk about all this.

we are coming up on two years unschooling, and i have seen some
promising results, like she gets motivated to learn things or take
care of her hygeine. but most times she doesn't finish what she
starts. i really try not to place too many expectations on her, but i
really worry that by unschooling i am giving her a free pass to make
excuses and do nothing with her life. and that someday she will blame
me for it all, for not making her. she's very good at trying to turn
things around and blame others for things she won't do.

i believe in unschooling, i truly do, but are their some kids that
need a little more direction? i can just see it now, some day she
will refuse to get a job and support herself because no one ever made
her do anything. these are my worst fears intimidating me, but i
could use some new insight.

she displays such tough personality issues that you don't see much in
children. at least from my perspective. is there any merit to
therapy? i tend to eschew psychologists and psychiatrists, even with
my own mood problems, but i don't want to make excuses if she truly
needs outside help.

does anyone have a child like this? how do you unschool when at the
worst moments you wish they would go back to school because it's not
fair the problems she causes to the younger siblings during the day,
because of her antics? when you tell her, look, i don't have to keep
you home to be abusive to the rest of the family. she is not
physically abusive, but she is really good at emotional blackmail and
sucking me into power struggles. i wish i was better at not taking
her bait, but damn she's good, and i am not stupid.

she hates when i am right about anything, and loves trying to prove
me wrong. very argumentative. i used to tell myself that she would
make a good lawyer, but not if she is always going to be in comtempt
for any authority. she's an incredible kid, she really is. but i am
stuck in frustration now. the doubts are drowning out the the hope.

i have tried replacing good descriptions for the bad, focusing on the
positive, like she is persistent, highly selective, outgoing, and so
forth, things that could serve her well if properly channeled. but
how does that work with unschooling? i know deep down that school
isn't the answer, but she can be such a drain. she wears me out.

help? thanks for listening.

ang

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2004 10:15:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
unolist@... writes:
<<but i
really worry that by unschooling i am giving her a free pass to make
excuses and do nothing with her life. and that someday she will blame
me for it all, for not making her. she's very good at trying to turn
things around and blame others for things she won't do.>>


Sometimes I worry that one day my kids are going to come to me and say "why
didn't you make me study harder...or learn this...or practice that." Whenever I
start to feel that way, I talk to one of my children about it. I ask them
how they feel about unschooling. They always say they love unschooling and can
learn things whenever they want to! This sets my mind to rest and usually
makes me laugh at my own insecurities.

Maybe you should ask your daughter how she feels about unschooling. Does she
think she should be doing more? It sounds like she's pretty young and still
deschooling.

--Jacqueline

--Jacqueline


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2004 9:15:58 AM Central Standard Time, unolist@...
writes:


> my kid. she is one tough cookie. when i hear about all these
> wonderful unschooling kids, and have a really tough day with my kid,
> i tell myself, oh their kids can't be this difficult. they must have
> easy going, highly motivated, don't have to worry too much about
> kids.
>

OK, I have no time to write at this moment we are off to a clinic at Mad
River but let me assure you that this is not the case. No one said this was going
to be easy, LOL
More later,
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/04 8:16:03 AM, unolist@... writes:

<< Stubborn, procrastinates, makes excuses, blames others

for her problems, doesn't take much accountability, promises to

change and and begs for second chances, and get's into a "poor me"

speech. >>

What are you trying to get her to do that she's stubbornly procrastinating
about?

Maybe you should take a session of aikido to make up for some of that excess
of psychology! If she's in motion, go with it! It's hard for people to
resist their own personal momentum.

If she likes to just sit, can she grow plants? Root vines in water for
transplanting next year? That takes months. Maybe that's her speed.

<<like the encopresis(chronic constipation and

soiling because she refused to go to the bathroom on time) and

enuresis(daytime leaking urine) >>

Can you just "diet" that out of her some, by happily eating foods (maybe away
from the house) that will NOT allow for constipation?

I have heard that women get lots of urinary tract infections and bladder
infections because they can hold it well, so they just hold it too long. Maybe
you and she should do the "lets pee before we go" and find more places to go,
like long drives into the country, or hikes, where peeing before feels good, and
peeing when she gets back feels good? (This is just brainstorming stuff and
might not be helpful at all.)

<< i

really worry that by unschooling i am giving her a free pass to make

excuses and do nothing with her life. and that someday she will blame

me for it all, for not making her. >>

If she were in school she'd be being punished and graded down and branded a
lazy failure. You've just saved her from all that (and more). Maybe in your
own future defense you should start keeping little summaries of her
improvements and your concerns and your relief that she isn't having to suffer the
cruelty of kids and teachers at school. Make more than one copy. <g> When she's
older, at first indication that she wants to blame you, hand her that "report."

<<i believe in unschooling, i truly do, but are their some kids that

need a little more direction?>>

In such cases I always think getting her out and about is best. Take her for
an overnight trip to another town. See a show, or museum, or go to an
amusement park or something like tourists do. Get a cheap motel room and go back
to it early enough to watch a movie. Eat at her favorite fast-food place.
Let it be a happy vacation.

If it costs you $120 it's over and done and that's about what just the first
visit with a counselor would cost. And if it makes any difference and gives
you happy shared experiences, that's WAY more than most first visits with
counsellors do. And counsellors usually want you to come back over and over and
over! <g>

<<i can just see it now, some day she

will refuse to get a job and support herself because no one ever made

her do anything. >>

How many kids who graduate high school are that way?
And many who graduate college?!

-=-i can just see it now, some day she

will refuse to get a job and support herself because no one ever made

her do anything. -=-

Negativity sink-holes are a big problem. I would try to shake her out of
the dark hole and into the light so she can start to dry out and move again.

If you have to make sacrifices of time and money, it's better now than two or
five years out. If she broke a leg, you'd take her to an emergency room
without saying, "Wait, how much? Can we just let it heal on its own at home?"

I don't think therapy is the best first move, though. I think an amusement
park and a motel room would be better. But don't take the whole family. And
go somewhere where you'll have fun even if she holds her breath and looks away
the whole time.

<<she hates when i am right about anything>>

Well duh. Stop being right so much. Stop expressing phase one of "i told
you so" if you can possibly help it.

<<how do you unschool when at the

worst moments you wish they would go back to school because it's not

fair the problems she causes to the younger siblings during the day,

because of her antics? >>

Worst case, I WOULD send a kid to school for the peace and safety of the
other kids.
Did she want to come home? If she wanted to, remind her. If you brought her
home against her will, you might have caused the problem yourself.

Guesses, all, but maybe some will help a little.

Sandra

Danielle Conger

Ang wrote:
my kid. she is one tough cookie. when i hear about all these
wonderful unschooling kids, and have a really tough day with my kid,
i tell myself, oh their kids can't be this difficult. they must have
easy going, highly motivated, don't have to worry too much about
kids.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ang,

How old is your daughter? Labels are dangerous, though I can understand the temptation to use them if they offer coping strategies along with the label. I just checked out Dr. Sears's book on ADD, and was seriously disappointed in the kinds of strategies he suggested. The book _Raising Your Spirited Child_ was far better, imo, and it sounds like you're already implementing many of those suggestions.

Have you looked into the possibility of food allergies? I'm new to this myself, so there may be people who can speak to it with more experience than I. You might want to begin by checking out Doris Rapp's book _Is this Your Child?_; she has loads of information in there for all aged children. Also, check out the Feingold website if you haven't already www.feingold.org . There's much controversy surrounding the effects of food allergies on behavior, but lots of anecdotal evidence offered by parents (along with several studies) supports the link. The two things the caught my eye in your post were the constipation and enuresis--these are two very likely signs of food issues. Of course, they could also be related to the fact that elimination has been turned into a power struggle or just the way her body is working (you can find a thread on this in the archives). *shrug* No hard and fast answers, just suggestions.

At any rate, elimination diets have been shown to help with ADD/ ADHD tendencies as well as autistic tendencies. My guy (3.5) would definitely be labeled ADHD if he were in the school system, and he has more than his fair share of aggression issues. Right now we're in the elimination part of the diet, where we eliminate all the possible allergens. Soon, we'll get to the challenge part of the diet, where we reintroduce things one at a time to see if he does, in fact, react behaviorally. Once we've done that, we will hopefully have narrowed down and identified all his triggers if they truly are related to food.

In all sincerity, we have already seen a *tremendous* improvement in his behavior. His tantrums have gone from 5-7 a day lasting from 15-30 min. to maybe 1-3 a day lasting for 1-3 minutes. They've also diminished in intensity--no hitting, biting, kicking or throwing involved. Now, he can be calmed and comforted whereas in the past he could not. These are *huge* improvements for everyone in the family! Allergic kids I've spoken to describe reactions as like trying to crawl out of your skin or watching yourself decompose from the outside as a rational being but being unable to do anything to stop it. The only thing I can relate it to is PMS gone really bad. *g* Lots of times sensitivities like this don't show up on traditional allergy tests, so elimination and challenge are the only way really to test at all.

But, the allergy/ sensitivity road is hard, and it comes at a pretty high cost. It is very difficult to eliminate things completely from a child's diet, and it affects everyone in the family. You have to completely rethink how you cook, the kinds of things you have in your house. Honestly, it sucks. I guess that once you get used to it, it probably becomes second nature. But until then, it's a struggle. But in my opinion, it's a far better road to try than psychiatrists and medication. If an elimination diet helps, and my guy is happier, then it will all be worth it.

At any rate, I just posted my own story and struggle at the unschooling.com boards in the special needs folder. Just thought I'd offer this in case it might be helpful.

--danielle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<<<my kid. she is one tough cookie. >>>>>

The best advice I ever got when I was having a tough time with my kid was to
quit thinking of her as MY kid. She was just who she was. She didn't
belong to me. It wasn't up to me to make her into something she wasn't.

As a first step, this wise man suggested that I spend time with her and
pretend she was someone else's kid. The took all responsibility of having
her grow up into a functional adult out of my hands. I was able to just
focus on having fun with her....not fixing her.

Made a huge difference for us.

Julie S.

unolist

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/1/04 8:16:03 AM, unolist@a... writes:
>
> << Stubborn, procrastinates, makes excuses, blames others
>
> for her problems, doesn't take much accountability, promises to
>
> change and and begs for second chances, and get's into a "poor me"
>
> speech. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



> What are you trying to get her to do that she's stubbornly
procrastinating
> about?

---------------------------------------------------
things that you guys would probably smack me for, like helping around
the house, or picking up after herself. for awhile she seemed to be
better when i was making sure she was contributing to the family
workload more. she loves to make deals, can so and so come over and
she will promise to clean her room and the basement rec room, then
she doesn't follow through and i feel taken advantage of.
but we don't have any tv or food battles LOL

and actually she voluntarily helps me out with the younger kids and
other things more than i give her credit for.
------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe you should take a session of aikido to make up for some of
that excess
> of psychology! If she's in motion, go with it! It's hard for
people to
> resist their own personal momentum.
>

-------------------------------------------------
my worst fear is that she learned to be this way by my parenting, the
things i used to do by being controlling, demanding, over-critical.
the do what your told because i'm the mom, the go to school and do
your work or else. the highly punitive idiot that thought she was
doing what a parent is supposed to do.

she probably never thought she could be good enough for me. she knows
i've changed, but sometimes we still butt heads over the stupidest
things. she is so much like me sometimes, it's frightening.
----------------------------------------------------





> <<like the encopresis(chronic constipation and
>
> soiling because she refused to go to the bathroom on time) and
>
> enuresis(daytime leaking urine) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


> Can you just "diet" that out of her some, by happily eating foods
(maybe away
> from the house) that will NOT allow for constipation?
>

------------------------------------------------------
this is actually one good thing about bringing her home, it kind of
resolved itself. it's not so much a problem anymore. and she is
better about other hygeinic issues that she used to neglect.
------------------------------------------------------


> << i
>
> really worry that by unschooling i am giving her a free pass to
make
>
> excuses and do nothing with her life. and that someday she will
blame
>
> me for it all, for not making her. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


> If she were in school she'd be being punished and graded down and
branded a
> lazy failure. You've just saved her from all that (and more).
Maybe in your
> own future defense you should start keeping little summaries of her
> improvements and your concerns and your relief that she isn't
having to suffer the
> cruelty of kids and teachers at school. Make more than one copy.
<g> When she's
> older, at first indication that she wants to blame you, hand her
that "report."


---------------------------------------------
that's exactly what happened when she was in school, and i know she'd
be worse off if she went back. then i worry if our younger kids are
getting a raw deal because of her bad moments, and my impulsive
responses. for the most part, they play and get along and have so
much fun together. my 4yo daughter hates the thought of 11yo megan
ever going back to school. so do i. i just hate the negativity that
we get locked into.
-----------------------------------------------



>
> <<i believe in unschooling, i truly do, but are their some kids
that
>
> need a little more direction?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


> In such cases I always think getting her out and about is best.
Take her for
> an overnight trip to another town. See a show, or museum, or go to
an
> amusement park or something like tourists do. Get a cheap motel
room and go back
> to it early enough to watch a movie. Eat at her favorite fast-
food place.
> Let it be a happy vacation.
>
> If it costs you $120 it's over and done and that's about what just
the first
> visit with a counselor would cost. And if it makes any difference
and gives
> you happy shared experiences, that's WAY more than most first
visits with
> counsellors do. And counsellors usually want you to come back over
and over and
> over! <g>
>

---------------------------------------------------------
wow, that is such good advice. and i remember you saying before about
just getting in the car and getting out, and it always stimulates
conversations. the weather hasn't been kind to travelers lately. i
think we are having major cabin fever, we haven't been to the park,
zoo, historical farm, in such a long time. the excitement of
christmas is over. it's hard to go to the library with the little
kids, i get exasperated. i definitely need to schedule more one on
one time with her, she's probably mad that i don't. that's a main
reason why i try not to spend as much time online and on busy lists
like this one, but then i get shorted the support and fresh
perspective i sometimes need. we did go to the library just the two
of us a few weeks ago, and shopping alone, and it was nice. daddy
teaches several nights a week and i feel guilty asking him to stay
home with the little ones on his nights off. definitely going to
schedule more time one on one, i think even (anti-homeschooling)
grandma would help out with that sometime.
--------------------------------------------------------------

> <<i can just see it now, some day she
>
> will refuse to get a job and support herself because no one ever
made
>
> her do anything. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


> How many kids who graduate high school are that way?
> And many who graduate college?!

---------------------------------------------------------------
yes, some in my own family. some who say that my kids need structure,
because they learned in an outpatient mental facility that it's
important, after a breakdown and years of attendance problems at work
and financial irresponsibilities. and i haven't had the nerve to say:
school didn't teach you that structure, now did it? you chose it
because you figured out without it, you were screwing up your life.
you had to choose it for yourself, someone making you never fixed
you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



>
> -=-i can just see it now, some day she
>
> will refuse to get a job and support herself because no one ever
made
>
> her do anything.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -=-


> Negativity sink-holes are a big problem. I would try to shake her
out of
> the dark hole and into the light so she can start to dry out and
move again.
>
> If you have to make sacrifices of time and money, it's better now
than two or
> five years out. If she broke a leg, you'd take her to an emergency
room
> without saying, "Wait, how much? Can we just let it heal on its
own at home?"
>
> I don't think therapy is the best first move, though. I think an
amusement
> park and a motel room would be better. But don't take the whole
family. And
> go somewhere where you'll have fun even if she holds her breath and
looks away
> the whole time.

---------------------------------------------------
i so wanted to just take her to SC conference last year, and we
couldn't swing it. maybe this year will be more realistic, and we can
do local things to build up to that. i know that unschooling and lack
of forced structure is a good thing, but if i don't make myself lists
or mark calendars, i don't accept it as a priority. going to schedule
some one on one time. and invite her suggestions and input. i'm
starting to feel better about this!
-------------------------------------------------



>
> <<she hates when i am right about anything>>>>>>>>>>


> Well duh. Stop being right so much. Stop expressing phase one
of "i told
> you so" if you can possibly help it.

---------------------------------------------------------------
i do try to never say that, but even just telling her to trust me, or
not even coming out and saying it, just things in general she loves
to argue about. it's like sometimes she wants advice but hates having
to ask for it. times like that i try to ask her questions instead of
just telling her what to do. so she can think she figured it out
herself. mental note to myself to do that more.
--------------------------------------------------------------




>
> <<how do you unschool when at the
>
> worst moments you wish they would go back to school because it's
not
>
> fair the problems she causes to the younger siblings during the
day,
>
> because of her antics? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


> Worst case, I WOULD send a kid to school for the peace and safety
of the
> other kids.
> Did she want to come home? If she wanted to, remind her. If you
brought her
> home against her will, you might have caused the problem yourself.
>
> Guesses, all, but maybe some will help a little.
>
> Sandra

-------------------------------------------------------------------
most of it has helped a lot. she chose to come home after i offered
it to her, and i know it's the right place for her. i really need to
work on my attitudes and responses to her.

this has been really helpful. i hope all the double quoting and
responses weren't too difficult to follow.

ang

unolist

>
> Maybe you should ask your daughter how she feels about
unschooling. Does she
> think she should be doing more? It sounds like she's pretty young
and still
> deschooling.
>
> --Jacqueline
>
> --Jacqueline
>
>


she's 11. which makes the teenage years to come so scary! she has
deschooled for two years, and sometimes she really seems productive.
other times i feel like i am ruining her life. those are my problems,
i bet. my focusing on the outcomes so i can prove that i'm doing
alright by her in our year-end portfolio. i still need deschooling,
and i haven't admitted that to myself until now.

ugh.......

ang

unolist

--- In [email protected], "Danielle Conger"
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
> Ang wrote:
> my kid. she is one tough cookie. when i hear about all these
> wonderful unschooling kids, and have a really tough day with my
kid,
> i tell myself, oh their kids can't be this difficult. they must
have
> easy going, highly motivated, don't have to worry too much about
> kids.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
>
> Ang,
>
> How old is your daughter? Labels are dangerous, though I can
understand the temptation to use them if they offer coping strategies
along with the label. I just checked out Dr. Sears's book on ADD, and
was seriously disappointed in the kinds of strategies he suggested.
The book _Raising Your Spirited Child_ was far better, imo, and it
sounds like you're already implementing many of those suggestions.
>
> Have you looked into the possibility of food allergies? >
> At any rate, I just posted my own story and struggle at the
unschooling.com boards in the special needs folder. Just thought I'd
offer this in case it might be helpful.
>
> --danielle


thank you. i have a feingold book, and have been to the site. i told
myself it was just her personality, and i needed to get over it. i
also don't want to put dietary restrictions on her, because she has
had a lifelong battle being overweight, and i believe giving her
freedom around food and showing her that eating when hungry is the
true secret to stabilizing her weight. she has been doing well with
that. i do want to eliminate as many processed foods as possible in
our family diet, but i don't want to have forbidden foods that she
will binge on when she can get them elsewhere. i don't know what to
do with a feingold diet at this point.

ang

unolist

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> <<<<<my kid. she is one tough cookie. >>>>>
>
> The best advice I ever got when I was having a tough time with my
kid was to
> quit thinking of her as MY kid. She was just who she was. She
didn't
> belong to me. It wasn't up to me to make her into something she
wasn't.
>
> As a first step, this wise man suggested that I spend time with her
and
> pretend she was someone else's kid. The took all responsibility of
having
> her grow up into a functional adult out of my hands. I was able to
just
> focus on having fun with her....not fixing her.
>
> Made a huge difference for us.
>
> Julie S.


wow. i know that in the past and more than i care to admit now, she
is a reflection of my parenting. anything that isn't "acceptable"
like her weight and her school performance were my fault. i used to
get so angry that she just wouldn't be like all the "normal" kids.
for making me look like such a failure. it's really hard.

i ask myself why is it so hard for me to accept her size, when i
accept my husband's big size?(hey don't take that the wrong way LOL)
why don't i unconditionally accept who she is?

what the hell is wrong with me????????????


so much guilt involved that i have made her the way she is. and that
everyone will see through me. i have always worried too much about
what other people think of me, and she became a natural extension of
that the day she was born. i will give this advice a try, thanks.

ang

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2004 4:51:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, unolist@...
writes:
i used to
get so angry that she just wouldn't be like all the "normal" kids.
for making me look like such a failure. it's really hard.

i ask myself why is it so hard for me to accept her size, when i
accept my husband's big size?(hey don't take that the wrong way LOL)
why don't i unconditionally accept who she is?
******************************************************************
Its easier for me to explain my thoughts from an inside view so here
goes............

Your daughter sounds as I did as a child. Does she still have bowel issues? I
know for me it was a big part of my weight issue. I also lacked confidence
inside though I came across as a hard charging bad ass at times It was all just
a front.

Holding bowels for me was better than the pain when I went. I was asked
nonstop as to if I went. In the end I was beaten by my father and ended up in
Boston Children's because of my bowels. Later I was made fun of by my sister who
told all my friends. I came out of all of it ok but I know for my own children I
am sure not to ask those potty questions.

I would say mean things to my Mom some times but inside it broke my heart. I
knew the right words to say but they never came out right or good enough. My
weight was a big issue with my Mom we would go school shopping and in the end
she would rage out of the store to call my nana or someone to complain to. Boys
clothes fit me better and the girls clothes were itchy this angered her.

Now that I look back she was disappointed and embarrassed at how I turned
out. She still comes across that way.

I dont know the full situation but it sounds as if she may have confidence
issues and needs more one on one time with Mom. My Mom thought as a teen it was
too late to try and turned my sister an I over to the state. It was a sad
time in my life it still is. I just wanted to be loved for who I was and not what
she wanted me to be. Your daughter needs some time and love. Sounds to me as
if Unschooling is the right fit for her. She will have the time she needs to
know who she is and for you to see what makes her tic.

Laura D


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

Angie,

Your daughter sounds a bit like my Sarah. She does have an official ADHD diagnosis, but when she went to school they also came out with "obsessive-compulsive," "oppositional-defiance" and possibly Asperger's.

When Sarah was very young we were very AP and unschooly...but somewhere around the age of 4, and I'm not really sure why, we started becoming very strict with her and went more traditional. So yeah, she has become very oppositional, etc. and I think it's more that the changes in our parenting really bothered her (as it did us and we have returned to what was working so well before!).

But she is still working through alot of the problems, and has made major improvements since coming home, but especially since beginning to completely unschool and AP.

I do worry that someday she'll end up "a bum" or something because we never "made" her do anything, or that she'll say she hates me for not letting her go to school and "be normal" or any number of versions of that.

I'm trying to hang in there, realize she's still very much deschooling. I'm also learning to listen to her again. I also realize that attendence in a government school is NOT a guarantee that she will succeed in life, and would very well only cause many more problems than she has right now. She's becoming my happy little girl again.

It's going to be a process, and all I can do is guide her. I really have my moments of doubt and everything right now...but I try to stay focused on how much more she is smiling these days.

I can't sympathize with some of your struggles with your daughter in regards to her health concerns and such, but the best advice I've been given was to remember to look at her for who she IS rather than who she is NOT. I take time each day to sit and snuggle with her, and tell her something I like about her, something I enjoyed that day about her and things along that lines.

I'm glad to hear that you're doing the same, just take a deep breath and hang in there!!! Things WILL get better...!

Anytime you want to talk, feel free to email me off-list!

MamaBeth



unolist <unolist@...> wrote:
oh, where do i begin. you will probably hear some guilty confessions
in this, but being honest is the only way i can ever get past a stuck
point.

my kid. she is one tough cookie. when i hear about all these
wonderful unschooling kids, and have a really tough day with my kid,
i tell myself, oh their kids can't be this difficult. they must have
easy going, highly motivated, don't have to worry too much about
kids.

i know some people here probably detest labels, but sometimes it's
all i can do to find a particular description of her personality to
try to understand why she is the way she is. when she was in school,
i thought it was ADHD. when she came home, i started thinking it was
Oppositional-Defiant. Now I'm convinced she is just plain old Passive-
Aggressive. Stubborn, procrastinates, makes excuses, blames others
for her problems, doesn't take much accountability, promises to
change and and begs for second chances, and get's into a "poor me"
speech. So much negativity and and manipulation, lots of faulty
thinking patterns (extreme all or none, magnification, projection,
denial, can you tell i loved psychology at one point?)

my kid is not all bad. she has improved some things since she came
home from school. like the encopresis(chronic constipation and
soiling because she refused to go to the bathroom on time) and
enuresis(daytime leaking urine) but some days it's hard to remember
the all the good things about her. it's hard to talk about all this.

we are coming up on two years unschooling, and i have seen some
promising results, like she gets motivated to learn things or take
care of her hygeine. but most times she doesn't finish what she
starts. i really try not to place too many expectations on her, but i
really worry that by unschooling i am giving her a free pass to make
excuses and do nothing with her life. and that someday she will blame
me for it all, for not making her. she's very good at trying to turn
things around and blame others for things she won't do.

i believe in unschooling, i truly do, but are their some kids that
need a little more direction? i can just see it now, some day she
will refuse to get a job and support herself because no one ever made
her do anything. these are my worst fears intimidating me, but i
could use some new insight.

she displays such tough personality issues that you don't see much in
children. at least from my perspective. is there any merit to
therapy? i tend to eschew psychologists and psychiatrists, even with
my own mood problems, but i don't want to make excuses if she truly
needs outside help.

does anyone have a child like this? how do you unschool when at the
worst moments you wish they would go back to school because it's not
fair the problems she causes to the younger siblings during the day,
because of her antics? when you tell her, look, i don't have to keep
you home to be abusive to the rest of the family. she is not
physically abusive, but she is really good at emotional blackmail and
sucking me into power struggles. i wish i was better at not taking
her bait, but damn she's good, and i am not stupid.

she hates when i am right about anything, and loves trying to prove
me wrong. very argumentative. i used to tell myself that she would
make a good lawyer, but not if she is always going to be in comtempt
for any authority. she's an incredible kid, she really is. but i am
stuck in frustration now. the doubts are drowning out the the hope.

i have tried replacing good descriptions for the bad, focusing on the
positive, like she is persistent, highly selective, outgoing, and so
forth, things that could serve her well if properly channeled. but
how does that work with unschooling? i know deep down that school
isn't the answer, but she can be such a drain. she wears me out.

help? thanks for listening.

ang



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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/1/2004 12:30:49 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> I would try to shake her out of
> the dark hole and into the light so she can start to dry out and move again.
>
> If you have to make sacrifices of time and money, it's better now than two
> or
> five years out.

This is exactly what I have been doing with my 16yro son. It was a big
commitment on my part to agree to drive him to the ski resort to teach snowboarding
lessons. He was very excited about doing this and has remained committed the
whole season. I caught negative remarks from all around, family members who
thought I was/am really putting myself out by doing this. It is about a 40 minute
drive each way, somedays I drop him off and go back for him depending on how
long he is to be there, we have been going there 5 years just for
entertainment (I don't ski) so I am REALLY sick of this place and in no way shape or form
do I like sitting and waiting there but I do it. It is cold and uncomfortable
(hard plastic chairs) and on some nights like last Friday there are 1500
middle school kids there with their schools club. UGH!

I have had to take him to training meetings also, replaced a lost pair of
goggles ($30 and the money is not why I encourage this, the money is lousy) and
even had to make a trip to the ER one day he wiped out. He was fine but felt he
couldn't teach the rest of the day, kind of reminded me of school, he was
told if felt unable to complete his shift then he needed to go to the ER via
emergency squad. (over $200 if my insurance doesn't cover it) He was bruised but
not broken for which I am thankful but I think they knew that already at the
ski resort. It might help to know that he is paid by the lesson not the hour.
Friday night his binding broke, I think it was because it was so cold here,
below zero. I have been able to show him how I value him because I tend to these
things right away, we went to our favorite ski store who recommended we go to
the place we purchased the bindings (not our favorite, LOL). We were thrilled
that they replaced them free of charge. We took care of this right away.

In spite of all of the bad this has been a wonderful experience for him. He
has learned a lot and is having fun being there. He loves to snowboard and it
has given him and I a lot of one on one time in the car. He has thanked me many
times for taking him. Even the unpleasant incidents have been good as they
have provided the opportunity to show him how much I care and he has responded
with gratitude but not only that, it has gone farther, our whole relationship
has been affected and has improved.

This is a long winded example of what has been working for me with my more
challenging child. It would be very hard to tell anyone exactly what to do
because we and our kids are all so different. I have been through a lot of
difficult times with this kid to get where we are and now it just keeps getting
better. We still have our moments as we are still learning but now that he is older
he is much more aware and tries very hard to work with me.

My feeling is exactly as Sandra put it, it is so much better to spend the
time and money now in building up the kid and the relationship. I know there are
a number of family members who do not understand my philosophy and therefore
think I'm a sap but this is not my first time down this road and I figure an
ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Laura Buoni


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Ang, How much older is your older dd than the younger kids?
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Here's another thought I had, I am the oldest of 5 and was my mom's right arm
from a very young age due to a regular absentee father. The older I got the
more my mother depended on me to help, which I did willingly. I was a very
responsible kid and also a self starter so I also did a lot w/o my Mom asking.

What I hated was that my Mom would treat me as an adult (for lack of a better
word) when it suited her but then would turn around and then treat me like a
kid when she didn't need me. I did not understand then what was happening but
in my head I was an adult, I was capable of adult work and did it regularly.
Once you have matured in your head you don't go backwards. I can remember
really feeling angry and betrayed when asked to take a turn sitting in the
back-seat because my sister wanted a turn in the front, things like that. (my sister
was a master at not helping out,LOL)

It all sounds so silly now and I am sure my Mom felt in the middle trying to
be fair but in such a situation I don't know how one ever can be fair. I can
see now what a dilemma it was but I couldn't then. Maybe if she had talked more
about it.

Don't know if that helps any or not.
Laura Buoni


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Feb 1, 2004, at 7:38 AM, ivorygrace7@... wrote:

> Sometimes I worry that one day my kids are going to come to me and say
> "why
> didn't you make me study harder...or learn this...or practice that."
> Whenever I
> start to feel that way, I talk to one of my children about it. I ask
> them
> how they feel about unschooling. They always say they love
> unschooling and can
> learn things whenever they want to! This sets my mind to rest and
> usually
> makes me laugh at my own insecurities.

As my kids have gotten older, I've helped them understand unschooling.
I think they won't "blame" anybody because they didn't learn something
- they'll always feel like learning anything is still an option. There
won't ever be the sense of it being "too late," for them. They are
HUGELY supportive of unschooling and will certainly unschool their own
kids - it would not be possible for them to feel okay about sending
their own kids off to school, I don't think.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Feb 1, 2004, at 11:01 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> How old is your daughter? Labels are dangerous, though I can
> understand the temptation to use them if they offer coping strategies
> along with the label. I just checked out Dr. Sears's book on ADD, and
> was seriously disappointed in the kinds of strategies he suggested.
> The book _Raising Your Spirited Child_ was far better, imo, and it
> sounds like you're already implementing many of those suggestions.

Don't miss: "The Explosive Child: A New Approach for Understanding and
Parenting Easily Frustrated, "Chronically Inflexible" Children by Ross
W. Greene."

-pam

pam sorooshian

On Feb 1, 2004, at 5:02 PM, Elizabeth Roberts wrote:

> I also realize that attendence in a government school is NOT a
> guarantee that she will succeed in life, and would very well only
> cause many more problems than she has right now. She's becoming my
> happy little girl again.

You know what? That concept of "succeeding" in life -- is the cause of
SO much unhappiness and needless worry. Life isn't a contest or a
project you can win or succeed at - it is an experience. Maybe its
because I'm looking at it from the other side of 50, but I am SO not
impressed with people who have "succeeded" in life in conventional ways
and so VERY impressed with those who are living life on their own
terms, whatever those terms may be.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Elizabeth Roberts

Hey, Julie...thanks for posting that! I've been trying to do that lately with Sarah and it IS helping!

MamaBeth

"J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...> wrote:
<<<<<my kid. she is one tough cookie. >>>>>

The best advice I ever got when I was having a tough time with my kid was to
quit thinking of her as MY kid. She was just who she was. She didn't
belong to me. It wasn't up to me to make her into something she wasn't.

As a first step, this wise man suggested that I spend time with her and
pretend she was someone else's kid. The took all responsibility of having
her grow up into a functional adult out of my hands. I was able to just
focus on having fun with her....not fixing her.

Made a huge difference for us.

Julie S.




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tjreynoso

> You know what? That concept of "succeeding" in life -- is the
cause of
> SO much unhappiness and needless worry. Life isn't a contest or a
> project you can win or succeed at - it is an experience. Maybe its
> because I'm looking at it from the other side of 50, but I am SO
not
> impressed with people who have "succeeded" in life in conventional
ways
> and so VERY impressed with those who are living life on their own
> terms, whatever those terms may be.
>
> -pam

This really hit me. For two reasons, one to do with unschooling my
son and the other with my own personal battle with my "success"

First my son. After a year of homeschooling and then unschooling
we're still feeling our way. He is enjoying unschooling. I love the
way he does things now for joy instead of obligation. He still
reads, he still does math and science. The diiference is that he
does it because he WANTS to and not in the traditional ways. This
week he's been reading his Nicktoons magazine. I was amazed at how
well he reads now! We've been playing Monopoly and Zoombinis. He
plays with magnets and makes weird concoctions in the yard. He's
into Bible stories. His whole face lights up when he's describing
some Bible character that he learned about. The funny thing is that
I don't read the Bible with him. He knows way more than me on that
subject though and loves to "teach" me a thing or two! He still
mentions school alot, and I'm hoping and waiting for this to pass.
For him it's really about the social aspect of it. But I think in
the year that he's been out he's forgotten what it was really like
at school. He was getting kicked in the stomach. None of his
classmates were actual playmates. They were mostly bussed in from
other neighborhoods. His class didn't get to do any extra activities
because they were so disruptive. I think he's looking at school
with "rose colored glasses" and that's why he still mentions it.

I've seen the parallel between unschooling and my "career". I've
been pondering the question "What am I really good at?" You see, I
went back to work full time because of financial reasons. I work
for decent people. My job is not horrible. But it offers no personal
fulfillment. I am not great at it because I have no personal
investment in it. Am I being a good example to my kids by staying
with something that doesn't offer me joy? Isn't that one of the
basis of unschooling? How do I tell them that learning should be a
joy and not a chore and then go off to a job that doesn't give me
anything but money back? It's been alot easier to take the leap of
unschooling with my kids than to take that leap into the unknown
with my own career. Anybody else taken that leap with themselves?

Tanya

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/2/04 8:32:28 AM, tjreynoso@... writes:

<< He's

into Bible stories. His whole face lights up when he's describing

some Bible character that he learned about. The funny thing is that

I don't read the Bible with him. He knows way more than me on that

subject though and loves to "teach" me a thing or two! >>

Holly really likes Bible stories.

Yesterday Marty and I went to see Master and Commander. I realized he didn't
know the story of Jonah, so I was whispering to him about it some between
lines of dialog. Luckily, the theatre was nearly empty, early matinee and
all...

Today I will find it and let him read it, or if he hesitates in the slightest
at me handing him a Bible, Ill just read it to him.

The last time he asked me to find him a Bible passage was as source material
and clarity for an end-of-world scenario role-playing game involving The
Apocalypse, the Christians being gone, and others still being here. He wanted to
sort out what was based on the Bible and what wasn't.

Sandra