discipline advice? (long)
B & S Nowicke
Not sure this appropriate for the list - but my other lists are general h/s lists and punishment and spanking are common responses to behavior problems.
I may be opening a can of worms here - but I cld really use some input on this.... I have 9yo ds, and triplet 6 yo dd's - much of the time they get along fine - But, since Nov they have been particularly nasty when they do get into it - screaming, name calling and sometimes scratching! It's driving me nuts - I have tried talking w/ them - as a group and separately, solely w/ the (usually) 2 fighting - redirecting - - time outs - and when all my wits are gone raising my voice of the battle and then lecturing ( I hate when I snap like that - but on the days when it goes on and on and on w/o any respite from the battles I just lose it!) - which I know does no good at all! So you understand this is not the norm - family stress levels are at peak levels frequently due to background information listed below and though I try to keep things open as to what's happening (info at their level when they ask and trying hard to answer only what they asked) and at the same time try very hard not to let it be the focus of our days. Some days are easier than others.
Background: I shld mention that my tension level and that of the kids are high since Nov 1st - we had literally just returned from a lengthy trip and a 2nd visit with my folks (in TX) when my mom was diagnosed w/ a brain tumor - situation was compounded by the dr OD-ing her on antiseizure meds - nearly killing her. I spent 2 weeks caring for my dad - and going back and forth to the hospital daily right before Xmas. She was finally released from the hospital on 12/24. She has a long way to go to recover - but we're optimistic and she is re-learning how to walk and paralysis of L hand/arm is diminishing a little each day. Just Saturday she had to be rushed to the ER for complications - again life threatening - but, as of tonight she seems to be on the road to recovery. Compound this situation w/ ds's best friend having to move temporarily out of state (w/ mom and siblings) to care for his grandma who is dying of cancer. Their other grandma died 2 yrs ago - though they had only met her twice and then just for very short visits her actual death didn't seem to bother them - other than feeling bad for daddy being so sad. Now suddenly they cry at night - saying that they miss her terribly and they don't want us (dh and me) to die! Yikes, it's just snowballing.
It's just alot of ugly stuff going on in our life right now - I've tried to talk the kids through this - and I know my stress and distraction level play into it too - I'm trying hard to have our days as normal as possible - And when it comes up I try to be being sensitive and age appropriate in my responses to their concerns abt their grammy, their friends grandma and their feelings for the dead grandma and reassuring them that we're not planning on dying any time soon. I am sure that this is what has got them all at each other - but of course in the moment (and even afterwards they say its just bcz he/she looked at me, etc) and make no tie back to all the upheaval.
So - like I said - any suggestions on dealing w/ the battles? They seem to explode from no where - so there's no time to prevent before the explosions.....and I the discussions we've abt the problem have not been fruitful in diminishing or resolving the problem.
Thx.
Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I may be opening a can of worms here - but I cld really use some input on this.... I have 9yo ds, and triplet 6 yo dd's - much of the time they get along fine - But, since Nov they have been particularly nasty when they do get into it - screaming, name calling and sometimes scratching! It's driving me nuts - I have tried talking w/ them - as a group and separately, solely w/ the (usually) 2 fighting - redirecting - - time outs - and when all my wits are gone raising my voice of the battle and then lecturing ( I hate when I snap like that - but on the days when it goes on and on and on w/o any respite from the battles I just lose it!) - which I know does no good at all! So you understand this is not the norm - family stress levels are at peak levels frequently due to background information listed below and though I try to keep things open as to what's happening (info at their level when they ask and trying hard to answer only what they asked) and at the same time try very hard not to let it be the focus of our days. Some days are easier than others.
Background: I shld mention that my tension level and that of the kids are high since Nov 1st - we had literally just returned from a lengthy trip and a 2nd visit with my folks (in TX) when my mom was diagnosed w/ a brain tumor - situation was compounded by the dr OD-ing her on antiseizure meds - nearly killing her. I spent 2 weeks caring for my dad - and going back and forth to the hospital daily right before Xmas. She was finally released from the hospital on 12/24. She has a long way to go to recover - but we're optimistic and she is re-learning how to walk and paralysis of L hand/arm is diminishing a little each day. Just Saturday she had to be rushed to the ER for complications - again life threatening - but, as of tonight she seems to be on the road to recovery. Compound this situation w/ ds's best friend having to move temporarily out of state (w/ mom and siblings) to care for his grandma who is dying of cancer. Their other grandma died 2 yrs ago - though they had only met her twice and then just for very short visits her actual death didn't seem to bother them - other than feeling bad for daddy being so sad. Now suddenly they cry at night - saying that they miss her terribly and they don't want us (dh and me) to die! Yikes, it's just snowballing.
It's just alot of ugly stuff going on in our life right now - I've tried to talk the kids through this - and I know my stress and distraction level play into it too - I'm trying hard to have our days as normal as possible - And when it comes up I try to be being sensitive and age appropriate in my responses to their concerns abt their grammy, their friends grandma and their feelings for the dead grandma and reassuring them that we're not planning on dying any time soon. I am sure that this is what has got them all at each other - but of course in the moment (and even afterwards they say its just bcz he/she looked at me, etc) and make no tie back to all the upheaval.
So - like I said - any suggestions on dealing w/ the battles? They seem to explode from no where - so there's no time to prevent before the explosions.....and I the discussions we've abt the problem have not been fruitful in diminishing or resolving the problem.
Thx.
Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 1/19/04 9:03 PM, B & S Nowicke at snowicke@... wrote:
about it isn't working.
Maybe think of it as talking about swimming to someone who can't swim. You
can talk and demonstrate and little that you do will help them understand
how to swim.
They have emotions building up inside and they just don't have the skills --
not the knowledge, but the skills -- to handle them.
If knowledge were all that's necessary to control our behavior, there would
be fewer overweight people! (If you're skinny, that won't help you see how
it's easy to know about balancing what goes in with what gets expended but
not so easy to put into practice.) Of course weight has to do with genetics
too, but personality is also dependent on genetics as is how quickly and how
effectively kids master reactions to emotions.
That's the thought exercise portion of the answer. Sandra does the practical
portion much better!
to *control* their reactions. Understandably since their reactions are
undoubtedly increasing your stress! But if you can let go of the idea that
their reactions are yours to control, it might help you.
It's hard to get across the difference between the ideas of stopping
children's behavior and helping children understand "That's not an
acceptable response. What else can you do?" The first is an ultimatum. It
sort of assumes the child *wants* to behave that way. The second is seeking
a better way. It assumes the child doesn't want to behave that way but just
doesn't have the skills not to.
Joyce
> But, since Nov they have been particularly nasty when they do get into it -Their behavior isn't caused by not understanding, so that's why talking
> screaming, name calling and sometimes scratching! It's driving me nuts - I
> have tried talking w/ them - as a group and separately, solely w/ the
> (usually) 2 fighting - redirecting - - time outs
about it isn't working.
Maybe think of it as talking about swimming to someone who can't swim. You
can talk and demonstrate and little that you do will help them understand
how to swim.
They have emotions building up inside and they just don't have the skills --
not the knowledge, but the skills -- to handle them.
If knowledge were all that's necessary to control our behavior, there would
be fewer overweight people! (If you're skinny, that won't help you see how
it's easy to know about balancing what goes in with what gets expended but
not so easy to put into practice.) Of course weight has to do with genetics
too, but personality is also dependent on genetics as is how quickly and how
effectively kids master reactions to emotions.
That's the thought exercise portion of the answer. Sandra does the practical
portion much better!
> I am sure that this is what has got them all at each other - but of course inAh, your poor family! I think you're right. And I also think you're trying
> the moment (and even afterwards they say its just bcz he/she looked at me,
> etc) and make no tie back to all the upheaval.
to *control* their reactions. Understandably since their reactions are
undoubtedly increasing your stress! But if you can let go of the idea that
their reactions are yours to control, it might help you.
It's hard to get across the difference between the ideas of stopping
children's behavior and helping children understand "That's not an
acceptable response. What else can you do?" The first is an ultimatum. It
sort of assumes the child *wants* to behave that way. The second is seeking
a better way. It assumes the child doesn't want to behave that way but just
doesn't have the skills not to.
Joyce
liza sabater
On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 09:03 PM, B & S Nowicke wrote:
it sounds like you need a break too. Have you considered getting older
cousins to be with them? Older friends of the family? How about a
mother's helper? Meaning, a teenage or young adult that would play and
be with the kids for a few hours a week while you are still around so
that, at least, you can deal with one at a time.
I just hear this over and over again on lists. Maybe it is just more
acceptable to get outside help in NYC... Still, it seems to be the
'curse' of homeschoolers --no time to pause, take a break and breathe.
You have to schedule time off for yourself. If this were your job,
you'd have to take time off for lunch and then for sleeping and going
home and weekends and maybe a vacation. Yes, this is not a 'job' but
please, be reasonable, if you are fried and stressed out, you may well
be more of a liability than an asset to your family.
This is not a normal time. You need reinforcements. Your children need
to have a sense of security, because they only see you two --your
husband and you-- and of course they are freaking out about your dying.
If the grandparents are dying and then you die, who is going to be
there for them? It is a reasonable question --and fear-- for a child of
any age, really.
I think kids behaviour negative behaviour is their way at pointing at
the obvious that somehow we are missing. Maybe, just maybe, this is
their way of asking where is our support system because we need help.
Maybe.
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So - like I said - any suggestions on dealing w/ the battles? TheyThe kids need attention. This is their way of handling the stress and
> seem to explode from nowhere - so there's no time to prevent before
> the explosions.....and I the discussions we've abt the problem have
> not been fruitful in diminishing or resolving the problem.
it sounds like you need a break too. Have you considered getting older
cousins to be with them? Older friends of the family? How about a
mother's helper? Meaning, a teenage or young adult that would play and
be with the kids for a few hours a week while you are still around so
that, at least, you can deal with one at a time.
I just hear this over and over again on lists. Maybe it is just more
acceptable to get outside help in NYC... Still, it seems to be the
'curse' of homeschoolers --no time to pause, take a break and breathe.
You have to schedule time off for yourself. If this were your job,
you'd have to take time off for lunch and then for sleeping and going
home and weekends and maybe a vacation. Yes, this is not a 'job' but
please, be reasonable, if you are fried and stressed out, you may well
be more of a liability than an asset to your family.
This is not a normal time. You need reinforcements. Your children need
to have a sense of security, because they only see you two --your
husband and you-- and of course they are freaking out about your dying.
If the grandparents are dying and then you die, who is going to be
there for them? It is a reasonable question --and fear-- for a child of
any age, really.
I think kids behaviour negative behaviour is their way at pointing at
the obvious that somehow we are missing. Maybe, just maybe, this is
their way of asking where is our support system because we need help.
Maybe.
l i z a
=========================
www.culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/04 10:55:17 PM, listdiva@... writes:
<< The kids need attention. This is their way of handling the stress and
it sounds like you need a break too. Have you considered getting older
cousins to be with them? Older friends of the family? How about a
mother's helper? >>
I think Liza's right.
My thought was they need more space and things to do individually, instead of
being stuck together in one small space. If you tell the kids "Sit on this
couch and watch this program" (or whyever they're all in one room) it will be
like being in the car too long too close too bored. Make use of your house.
Maybe get one in the tub with toys, one playing a video game, one with playdoh
in the kitchen and one helping you fold towels. THAT kind of "distraction"
can be healthy and good, and they'll get to process their thoughts, or think
about entirely different things, without other kids looking at them or touching
them.
Parents belittle that "he's looking at me" complaint, but if I were stressed
and in close quarters I wouldn't want my husband or one of you people making
googly eyes at me or sticking your fingre half an inch from me and saying "I'm
not touching you, just ignore me," or "it doesn't hurt you for me to just look
at you; what is your problem?"
People need peace. Parents need to see that their children have some peace
or how can the parents have any?
Sandra
<< The kids need attention. This is their way of handling the stress and
it sounds like you need a break too. Have you considered getting older
cousins to be with them? Older friends of the family? How about a
mother's helper? >>
I think Liza's right.
My thought was they need more space and things to do individually, instead of
being stuck together in one small space. If you tell the kids "Sit on this
couch and watch this program" (or whyever they're all in one room) it will be
like being in the car too long too close too bored. Make use of your house.
Maybe get one in the tub with toys, one playing a video game, one with playdoh
in the kitchen and one helping you fold towels. THAT kind of "distraction"
can be healthy and good, and they'll get to process their thoughts, or think
about entirely different things, without other kids looking at them or touching
them.
Parents belittle that "he's looking at me" complaint, but if I were stressed
and in close quarters I wouldn't want my husband or one of you people making
googly eyes at me or sticking your fingre half an inch from me and saying "I'm
not touching you, just ignore me," or "it doesn't hurt you for me to just look
at you; what is your problem?"
People need peace. Parents need to see that their children have some peace
or how can the parents have any?
Sandra
Bill & Diane
My six-year-old has been driving me nuts lately with the same type of
behavior (also a lot of family stress here--I've recently become
effectively a single parent). He doesn't have agemates to pick on, but
has been picking on his 4-year-old sister. The best I've come up with is
just not to let them be in a room together when he gets like that--which
is several times a day!
More bright and wonderful things--new stuff, outings, etc., does seem to
help, but I can only do so much of that stuff!
OH! I just reread--have you given them concrete information on what
would happen to them, who would take care of them if you DID die? My son
was really worried about that, too, and it's common at this age, even
without all the other concerns.
:-) Diane
(off to the Indianapolis Children's Museum today!)
B & S Nowicke wrote:
behavior (also a lot of family stress here--I've recently become
effectively a single parent). He doesn't have agemates to pick on, but
has been picking on his 4-year-old sister. The best I've come up with is
just not to let them be in a room together when he gets like that--which
is several times a day!
More bright and wonderful things--new stuff, outings, etc., does seem to
help, but I can only do so much of that stuff!
OH! I just reread--have you given them concrete information on what
would happen to them, who would take care of them if you DID die? My son
was really worried about that, too, and it's common at this age, even
without all the other concerns.
:-) Diane
(off to the Indianapolis Children's Museum today!)
B & S Nowicke wrote:
>Not sure this appropriate for the list - but my other lists are general h/s lists and punishment and spanking are common responses to behavior problems.
>
>I may be opening a can of worms here - but I cld really use some input on this.... I have 9yo ds, and triplet 6 yo dd's - much of the time they get along fine - But, since Nov they have been particularly nasty when they do get into it - screaming, name calling and sometimes scratching! It's driving me nuts - I have tried talking w/ them - as a group and separately, solely w/ the (usually) 2 fighting - redirecting - - time outs - and when all my wits are gone raising my voice of the battle and then lecturing ( I hate when I snap like that - but on the days when it goes on and on and on w/o any respite from the battles I just lose it!) - which I know does no good at all! So you understand this is not the norm - family stress levels are at peak levels frequently due to background information listed below and though I try to keep things open as to what's happening (info at their level when they ask and trying hard to answer only what they asked) and at the same time try very hard not to let it be the focus of our days. Some days are easier than others.
>
>Background: I shld mention that my tension level and that of the kids are high since Nov 1st - we had literally just returned from a lengthy trip and a 2nd visit with my folks (in TX) when my mom was diagnosed w/ a brain tumor - situation was compounded by the dr OD-ing her on antiseizure meds - nearly killing her. I spent 2 weeks caring for my dad - and going back and forth to the hospital daily right before Xmas. She was finally released from the hospital on 12/24. She has a long way to go to recover - but we're optimistic and she is re-learning how to walk and paralysis of L hand/arm is diminishing a little each day. Just Saturday she had to be rushed to the ER for complications - again life threatening - but, as of tonight she seems to be on the road to recovery. Compound this situation w/ ds's best friend having to move temporarily out of state (w/ mom and siblings) to care for his grandma who is dying of cancer. Their other grandma died 2 yrs ago - though they had only met her twice and then just for very short visits her actual death didn't seem to bother them - other than feeling bad for daddy being so sad. Now suddenly they cry at night - saying that they miss her terribly and they don't want us (dh and me) to die! Yikes, it's just snowballing.
>
>It's just alot of ugly stuff going on in our life right now - I've tried to talk the kids through this - and I know my stress and distraction level play into it too - I'm trying hard to have our days as normal as possible - And when it comes up I try to be being sensitive and age appropriate in my responses to their concerns abt their grammy, their friends grandma and their feelings for the dead grandma and reassuring them that we're not planning on dying any time soon. I am sure that this is what has got them all at each other - but of course in the moment (and even afterwards they say its just bcz he/she looked at me, etc) and make no tie back to all the upheaval.
>
>So - like I said - any suggestions on dealing w/ the battles? They seem to explode from no where - so there's no time to prevent before the explosions.....and I the discussions we've abt the problem have not been fruitful in diminishing or resolving the problem.
>
>Thx.
>Susan
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/23/04 3:09:14 AM, cen46624@... writes:
<< More bright and wonderful things--new stuff, outings, etc., does seem to
help, but I can only do so much of that stuff! >>
People can do too little, though.
Cycling through things they've just never seen lately can be like new stuff,
or letting them go through some of your old things (if they're old enough not
to hurt them).
Borrow movies from friends if you can't afford to rent.
I've sometimes talked a kid into getting in the bathtub to play, offer then
interesting things to do or play with in there, just to get some separation for
an hour that didn't seem like isolation or punishment. A CD that lasts a
long time, some bathtub toys, and spending that time with the other kid(s) has
helped us many times.
Easy toys are ice, kitchen things (strainer, funnel, straws, measuring cups,
turkey baster, bundt pan---not all at once, probably! <g>), blocks that float
(things without holes that would collect too much water, if they're important
to maintain).
There are things to paint with in bathtubs. Some can be bought, but even
just tempera or maybe water colors would do it especially if the purpose is
distraction and soothing fun, instead of to get really clean and dress up and be
photographed.
Sandra
<< More bright and wonderful things--new stuff, outings, etc., does seem to
help, but I can only do so much of that stuff! >>
People can do too little, though.
Cycling through things they've just never seen lately can be like new stuff,
or letting them go through some of your old things (if they're old enough not
to hurt them).
Borrow movies from friends if you can't afford to rent.
I've sometimes talked a kid into getting in the bathtub to play, offer then
interesting things to do or play with in there, just to get some separation for
an hour that didn't seem like isolation or punishment. A CD that lasts a
long time, some bathtub toys, and spending that time with the other kid(s) has
helped us many times.
Easy toys are ice, kitchen things (strainer, funnel, straws, measuring cups,
turkey baster, bundt pan---not all at once, probably! <g>), blocks that float
(things without holes that would collect too much water, if they're important
to maintain).
There are things to paint with in bathtubs. Some can be bought, but even
just tempera or maybe water colors would do it especially if the purpose is
distraction and soothing fun, instead of to get really clean and dress up and be
photographed.
Sandra
Marjorie Kirk
<< More bright and wonderful things--new stuff, outings, etc., does seem to
help, but I can only do so much of that stuff! >>
I loved Sandra's post about doing little too...movies, time in the tub,
different toys, etc. Some things that have worked for us : I box up some
of the kids' toys regularly and then bring them out again a month or two
later. It feels like Christmas to see toys they forgot about! Cooking
something special, or staying in our jammies all day and bringing blankets
and sleeping bags to the living room. Picnicking there, watching movies and
basically having a slumber party. Starting some kind of craft project:
making paper, doing paper-Mache', making a new batch of play-doh, etc. As
for playing in the tub, my kids used to love finger-painting all over their
bodies.
Marjorie
help, but I can only do so much of that stuff! >>
I loved Sandra's post about doing little too...movies, time in the tub,
different toys, etc. Some things that have worked for us : I box up some
of the kids' toys regularly and then bring them out again a month or two
later. It feels like Christmas to see toys they forgot about! Cooking
something special, or staying in our jammies all day and bringing blankets
and sleeping bags to the living room. Picnicking there, watching movies and
basically having a slumber party. Starting some kind of craft project:
making paper, doing paper-Mache', making a new batch of play-doh, etc. As
for playing in the tub, my kids used to love finger-painting all over their
bodies.
Marjorie