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Hi Liza,

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way. Communicating via email doesn't convey one's tone and true meaning very well and since I am new to the group my true personality has not had time to become known. I am not trying to attack you or your birth memories and I apologize if this is how my replies have come across.

>if you are taken to court you can be held liable for breaking the 'law'<

I agree. I again may have not been clear about what I meant by the statement, "It is not law." Having a first vbac after c-sec in a hospital only, is not law, a person who chooses a homebirth(and I realize this is not an option for everyone) for there first vbac after c-sec can not be prosecuted if she is using a licensed midwife who is practicing within her legal scope of practice. Each NY midwife's scope of practice will vary according to their education, having a NY license, and the consulting physicians who have signed their practice agreement. If it was illegal for all NY midwives to attend first time vbacs, then the midwives I work with and others that I know would not be doing them. I believe that a woman can choose to have an unattended homebirth as the law does not prohibit this. Will they be reported to CWS and have to address their choice in court, I can't really say. I'm sure some may feel the need to drag them through the court system based on their interpretation of certain regulations. Is this a risk or option for everyone, no.

>why? i had what i consider a good experience with Aidan's birth. i am not the first woman to tear<

The letter that I was referring you to consider writing was not based on your experience with Aidan's birth or tearing. Sorry I should have been more clear about that. I was referring to the comment about the terrible treatment you received from the hospital across the street. >We live across the street from a hospital but we've been treated so horridly in the past that not even dead I'd want to go in there. The inquisition we had to sustain because of the medical treatments we were questioning were more than rude.<

>so i want to go on record as saying that i had a positive experience with the midwives at Elizabeth Seton Childbirthing Center. they were not manipulative or anything that you would like to tag on them. i am actually getting quite upset that you're trying to paint them in a negative light. they were an incredible group of women who had to overcome a lot of obstacles because they wanted to have as little
medical intrusion as possible in their practice.<

Understand, I do believe you had a positive birth experience and do not want to detract from your memory and I do believe you made the best choices for your personal situation in collaboration with your careproviders.

I wasn't aware that I was making the ESBC midwives look manipulative or putting them in a negative light, this was not my intent. I believe that I may have conveyed this in previous statements from my first post. As a doula, many times I have seen midwives (mostly hospital midwives) and other childbirth careproviders (including RN, OB, etc.) manipulate woman by sharing information not backed up by evidence in order to get them to comply to their wishes and management of maternity care. I wasn't meaning this is what happened to you, but that it was a possibility that it could have, based on my limited knowledge of Aiden's birth, where you were located and your personal situation. I apologize to you for the way it came across and do agree that the midwives of ESBC are wonderful women. I know the position that they are put in because of regulations on midwifery in NY is very difficult and I've seen how it has effected the midwives that I work with as well. I feel that what they have done for birthing women in NY is remarkable. I thought I was speaking of how midwifery regulations do effect the options midwives have. Sometimes their hands are tied and even though they know in their hearts there is a better way, they have to do what is lawfully required of them or risk prosecution and losing their license.

>the hospital's wording was misleading but, again, unless you have an unlimited budget to fight these things in court, you have to treat the document as the law.<

I agree with this and when I asked if I could see the document, I was meaning for my own educational experiences for a childbirth careprovider in NY. Not to question whether it was real or to imply that the wording was deliberately misleading. Having information of this kind helps me to serve childbearing woman better. Again if my tone or intent came across demeaning or dismissing the value of your statements, I apologize. I consider your experience and viewpoints valueable and important.

>i just received the IHIP packets and their asking for book lists, attendance records, the name of the curriculum we'll be using. now in NYC all the districts are sending out these forms. technically, i should not be filling out forms BUT because now the districts have agreed to send these out, the day will come when it will be considered unlawful not to
fill<

Wow! I have it easy where I live, at least for now. Is there anyone rallying together to discuss ways to prevent this from happening? I'd love anything you could share with me.

>there was NOTHING mindless about the decisions we made. we were very clear about what the options and compromises we were going to have to put up with if things where not going "our way".<

Again I apologize if I implied this through my words in any way. This was not my intent.

I do agree with a lot of what you've said.

>the issue here is not ESCbC. the Consolidated Laws of NY<

I agree that the issue isn't ESCbc and that it is with NY law, which is why I felt it was important to share additional information regarding birth and vbac options in NY.

>the core of the problem and the power of hospitals and insurance companies.<

I have to agree and that is why I think it very important for women to write letters and stand up for themselves. This creates changes in policy, maybe not immediately for you (not meaning you personally), but for future women. Hospitals and medicine is consumer driven, they need patients to make money. Yes they are powerful and manipulate our choices sometimes for their own benefit, and they sometimes win, like in the case of ESCbC, but history shows that if consumers demand changes they will need to revise the way they do things or lose business. That is why women are now allowed to have their partners with them, and once a cesarean always a cesarean policy has changed, labor/delivery/and postpartum rooms, etc. Over the years some women have demanded the choice to have an elective c-sec for non-medical reasons and this is now being addressed by ACOG who has stated that OB's may provide this option to certain patients requesting it.
Even women who are happy with their birth experience, but not with the hospital policies could write letters commending their careproviders for a job well done, but clarifying their disappointment with the policies and how they feel they may have effected the outcome of their birth either physically or emotionally. If they receive enough complaints about particular policies, they will review them and make the neccessary changes to keep business. If one hospital in an area becomes liberal in their policies and starts to pull in a lot of business, you bet that eventually others will review what they are doing to try and bring business back to them.

The task can seem dainting, but by not speaking out at all, allows these institutions to continue in the manner that they do. Resistance equals change.

Again, I'm sorry for upsetting you and I appreciate your bringing this to my attention.

Warmly,

Regina

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In a message dated 1/18/04 4:02:15 PM, rpofwarwick@... writes:

<< I have to agree and that is why I think it very important for women to
write letters and stand up for themselves. >>

I was involved in Ceaserean Prevention Movement stuff when my kids were
little. There are others here who have been involved with midwifery and birth
activism, but priorities being what they are, they're here to discuss
homeschooling.

For a person whose priority is still birth activism, they might think the
rest of us are lazy and unconcerned, but we're not being lazy and unconcerned
about unschooling!

Do you have recommendations for other lists, websites or bulletin boards for
people who want more information or who would like to lend their experiences
to current activists?

Yes it's related, but let's focus on the children where they are now, please,
for this list's purposes.

Sandra