Kids "going insane"
Sorcha Aisling
I've been thinking about what Sandra said about kids purposely dumping a soda from the point of view of someone new to unschooling. Suppose you were interested in unschooling and you signed up and got the impression that unschooling meant never telling kids anything and letting them do absolutely whatever they want, to the extent of purposefully destroying property. You'd probably unsubscribe immediately and go on to tell your friends about the "crazy unschoolers and their wild kids."
And Mamabeth, I'm not saying this to pick on you, but rather because I am concerned enough about your situation that I've been trying to find a way to say this that you'll "hear" and not dismiss as overly critical: If you have a social worker coming to your home on a regular basis, and on her clipboard there's a paper saying, "history of negligence", if she walks into a home where it's ok for your daughter to write on the wall, graffiti-style, and ok for your son to dump a can of soda, she's not likely to think, "What a free-spirited family!" but rather to note it as further evidence of neglect.
I'm not saying you're a bad mother; I can tell you care deeply about your children. But now, with the social worker examining the situation, it might not be the best time to say that you don't have rules in your household and the kids can do whatever they want. And if this social worker has the power to insist that you put your children in school, then if you're committed to unschooling, you might want to set up more rules than you'd like right now to achieve the larger goal of keeping the kids at home rather than school. Because if you insist on no rules and it looks like continued negligence, you might lose the option to unschool, and sending them to school would be worse than telling them, "Don't write on the wall" or "Don't dump your drink."
Sorcha
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And Mamabeth, I'm not saying this to pick on you, but rather because I am concerned enough about your situation that I've been trying to find a way to say this that you'll "hear" and not dismiss as overly critical: If you have a social worker coming to your home on a regular basis, and on her clipboard there's a paper saying, "history of negligence", if she walks into a home where it's ok for your daughter to write on the wall, graffiti-style, and ok for your son to dump a can of soda, she's not likely to think, "What a free-spirited family!" but rather to note it as further evidence of neglect.
I'm not saying you're a bad mother; I can tell you care deeply about your children. But now, with the social worker examining the situation, it might not be the best time to say that you don't have rules in your household and the kids can do whatever they want. And if this social worker has the power to insist that you put your children in school, then if you're committed to unschooling, you might want to set up more rules than you'd like right now to achieve the larger goal of keeping the kids at home rather than school. Because if you insist on no rules and it looks like continued negligence, you might lose the option to unschool, and sending them to school would be worse than telling them, "Don't write on the wall" or "Don't dump your drink."
Sorcha
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
liza sabater
On Friday, January 9, 2004, at 11:07 PM, Sorcha Aisling wrote:
You may want to read more on what Pam has to say about punishment and
discipline, rules and boundaries. She just posted something brilliant
that really makes a distinction between boundaries and rules.
Here is an example of a rule:
Pam said:
Pam said:
that spilling juice in the holder was mean to be destructive but
disruptive. I find it very interesting that the son did that as mom was
once again shlepping somewhere the toxic neighbor.
Which also proves the point that if one does not know how to set
boundaries with certain people, one maybe has a problem setting them
with others as well. Even our own children --and grock knows I've seen
that happen with relatives and elsewhere.
So the distinction again, is that boundaries are not necessarily the
same as rules.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> if you're committed to unschooling, you might want to set up moreSorcha,
> rules than you'd like right now to achieve the larger goal of keeping
> the kids at home rather than school.
You may want to read more on what Pam has to say about punishment and
discipline, rules and boundaries. She just posted something brilliant
that really makes a distinction between boundaries and rules.
Here is an example of a rule:
Pam said:
> Mom or dad says, "GO to your room and while you're thereHere is an example of setting boundaries :
> think about being obedient and doing what I tell you the FIRST time I
> say it. And no playing in there." There are people with rules about
> what "crimes" will result in how many minutes in the kid's room. I've
> heard people suggest one minute for each year old the child is. What
> do you think the kids REALLY think about while they are in there -
> waiting to be released?
Pam said:
> Protecting other people from a kid who is being destructive orDestructive behaviour can come in many shapes or forms. I don't think
> purposely causing a problem - a kid who is overtired and overstimulated
> and being super loud and disruptive and pestering, for example - is
> something we have to do. Ideally, of COURSE, we'd do it sweetly and
> brilliantly - figure out that a soothing bubble bath is just what the
> child needs - or a bowl of hot soup or a backrub or whatever -- but in
> real life there are times we just say, as you described, Krisula, "Be
> more quiet or go in the other room."
>
> For a kid who is overstimulated - being too rough - being rude or mean
> to the rest of the family - asking them to "Go in the other room and
> get yourself calmed down before you come back," is not a punishment -
> it is an attempt by the parent to protect other family members and let
> the child know that he/she is being rude and an opportunity for the
> child to get in control of him/herself.
that spilling juice in the holder was mean to be destructive but
disruptive. I find it very interesting that the son did that as mom was
once again shlepping somewhere the toxic neighbor.
Which also proves the point that if one does not know how to set
boundaries with certain people, one maybe has a problem setting them
with others as well. Even our own children --and grock knows I've seen
that happen with relatives and elsewhere.
So the distinction again, is that boundaries are not necessarily the
same as rules.
/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/2004 12:05:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
sorcha_aisling@... writes:
have a social worker coming to your home on a regular basis, and on her
clipboard there's a paper saying, "history of negligence", if she walks into a home
where it's ok for your daughter to write on the wall, graffiti-style, and ok
for your son to dump a can of soda, she's not likely to think, "What a
free-spirited family!" but rather to note it as further evidence of neglect. <<
I so agree with you Sorcha, and hope Mamabeth is not offended too. These
things are said as kindly as possible. I'm a foster mom and have many friends
who foster. I know you are concerned with whether they have to be put in
school, but it could be much worse.
Although there are many children who are removed from homes rightly (and
probably should have been removed much earlier and permanantly) there are many
kids removed by overzealous social workers for educational neglect, a dirty
house, dirty clothes. You're already in the loop of the system now. Do what you
have to do to keep your kids.
This doesn't mean rigid rules but reasonable ones. Get your house clean, all
the clothes washed, make sure the kids are clean and clothed most of the
time. You can still unschool! Once you lose your kids, who knows what damage can
be done, and they'll make you jump through hoops of fire to get them back.
None of this is meant to scare you. But put your home and kids first, scr**
anyone else pulling at you for help or support or rides, and get things squared
away.
Blessings to you
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sorcha_aisling@... writes:
>>I am concerned enough about your situation that I've been trying to find away to say this that you'll "hear" and not dismiss as overly critical: If you
have a social worker coming to your home on a regular basis, and on her
clipboard there's a paper saying, "history of negligence", if she walks into a home
where it's ok for your daughter to write on the wall, graffiti-style, and ok
for your son to dump a can of soda, she's not likely to think, "What a
free-spirited family!" but rather to note it as further evidence of neglect. <<
I so agree with you Sorcha, and hope Mamabeth is not offended too. These
things are said as kindly as possible. I'm a foster mom and have many friends
who foster. I know you are concerned with whether they have to be put in
school, but it could be much worse.
Although there are many children who are removed from homes rightly (and
probably should have been removed much earlier and permanantly) there are many
kids removed by overzealous social workers for educational neglect, a dirty
house, dirty clothes. You're already in the loop of the system now. Do what you
have to do to keep your kids.
This doesn't mean rigid rules but reasonable ones. Get your house clean, all
the clothes washed, make sure the kids are clean and clothed most of the
time. You can still unschool! Once you lose your kids, who knows what damage can
be done, and they'll make you jump through hoops of fire to get them back.
None of this is meant to scare you. But put your home and kids first, scr**
anyone else pulling at you for help or support or rides, and get things squared
away.
Blessings to you
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
Sorcha,
I never said that it was ok for Logan to have poured out the Coke, I just asked him clean it up. I'd also reminded him that sodas and other things should be poured out into a sink and not into the van.
I appreciate your point about the situation with the social worker, and no I hadn't considered it that way.
MamaBeth
Sorcha Aisling <sorcha_aisling@...> wrote:
I've been thinking about what Sandra said about kids purposely dumping a soda from the point of view of someone new to unschooling. Suppose you were interested in unschooling and you signed up and got the impression that unschooling meant never telling kids anything and letting them do absolutely whatever they want, to the extent of purposefully destroying property. You'd probably unsubscribe immediately and go on to tell your friends about the "crazy unschoolers and their wild kids."
And Mamabeth, I'm not saying this to pick on you, but rather because I am concerned enough about your situation that I've been trying to find a way to say this that you'll "hear" and not dismiss as overly critical: If you have a social worker coming to your home on a regular basis, and on her clipboard there's a paper saying, "history of negligence", if she walks into a home where it's ok for your daughter to write on the wall, graffiti-style, and ok for your son to dump a can of soda, she's not likely to think, "What a free-spirited family!" but rather to note it as further evidence of neglect.
I'm not saying you're a bad mother; I can tell you care deeply about your children. But now, with the social worker examining the situation, it might not be the best time to say that you don't have rules in your household and the kids can do whatever they want. And if this social worker has the power to insist that you put your children in school, then if you're committed to unschooling, you might want to set up more rules than you'd like right now to achieve the larger goal of keeping the kids at home rather than school. Because if you insist on no rules and it looks like continued negligence, you might lose the option to unschool, and sending them to school would be worse than telling them, "Don't write on the wall" or "Don't dump your drink."
Sorcha
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I never said that it was ok for Logan to have poured out the Coke, I just asked him clean it up. I'd also reminded him that sodas and other things should be poured out into a sink and not into the van.
I appreciate your point about the situation with the social worker, and no I hadn't considered it that way.
MamaBeth
Sorcha Aisling <sorcha_aisling@...> wrote:
I've been thinking about what Sandra said about kids purposely dumping a soda from the point of view of someone new to unschooling. Suppose you were interested in unschooling and you signed up and got the impression that unschooling meant never telling kids anything and letting them do absolutely whatever they want, to the extent of purposefully destroying property. You'd probably unsubscribe immediately and go on to tell your friends about the "crazy unschoolers and their wild kids."
And Mamabeth, I'm not saying this to pick on you, but rather because I am concerned enough about your situation that I've been trying to find a way to say this that you'll "hear" and not dismiss as overly critical: If you have a social worker coming to your home on a regular basis, and on her clipboard there's a paper saying, "history of negligence", if she walks into a home where it's ok for your daughter to write on the wall, graffiti-style, and ok for your son to dump a can of soda, she's not likely to think, "What a free-spirited family!" but rather to note it as further evidence of neglect.
I'm not saying you're a bad mother; I can tell you care deeply about your children. But now, with the social worker examining the situation, it might not be the best time to say that you don't have rules in your household and the kids can do whatever they want. And if this social worker has the power to insist that you put your children in school, then if you're committed to unschooling, you might want to set up more rules than you'd like right now to achieve the larger goal of keeping the kids at home rather than school. Because if you insist on no rules and it looks like continued negligence, you might lose the option to unschool, and sending them to school would be worse than telling them, "Don't write on the wall" or "Don't dump your drink."
Sorcha
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In a message dated 1/10/04 1:09:41 AM, listdiva@... writes:
<< I find it very interesting that the son did that as mom was
once again shlepping somewhere the toxic neighbor. >>
Good point, and sobering.
The neighbor gots to go, and the boy needs lots of time right next to mom,
smiling!
Sandra
<< I find it very interesting that the son did that as mom was
once again shlepping somewhere the toxic neighbor. >>
Good point, and sobering.
The neighbor gots to go, and the boy needs lots of time right next to mom,
smiling!
Sandra
scookeafan
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
things should be poured out into a sink and not into the van.
about this incident. Sounded like a perfectly normal "kid
experimenting moment" to me, (MamaBeth did say her son was 3 years
old, right?). You'd probably be appalled at some of the
"experimenting" my youngest son does!
I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". (although this approach is not always successful
with dh and my teenage ds!;-) They tend to need extra "reminding".
Sherry
>just asked him clean it up. I'd also reminded him that sodas and other
> I never said that it was ok for Logan to have poured out the Coke, I
things should be poured out into a sink and not into the van.
>I must admit, I'm amazed at some of the comments that have been made
about this incident. Sounded like a perfectly normal "kid
experimenting moment" to me, (MamaBeth did say her son was 3 years
old, right?). You'd probably be appalled at some of the
"experimenting" my youngest son does!
I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". (although this approach is not always successful
with dh and my teenage ds!;-) They tend to need extra "reminding".
Sherry
Tia Leschke
>When I first read about the soda-pouring, my first thought was that it was
>
>I must admit, I'm amazed at some of the comments that have been made
>about this incident. Sounded like a perfectly normal "kid
>experimenting moment" to me, (MamaBeth did say her son was 3 years
>old, right?). You'd probably be appalled at some of the
>"experimenting" my youngest son does!
something my 3 year old grandson would do.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/04 9:29:12 PM, sherrycook@... writes:
<< I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". >>
We've always helped each other clean up messes here. That means I've never
expected a child to clean up totally alone ANY kind of mess. And the
reciprocal happened: if I break a glass or spill something or whatever, the nearest
kid is quick to just start helping, until the mess is picked up.
I would never have broken one of their toys or even messed up their
arrangements of action figures or stuffed animals. I used to go through the vacuum
clean bags by dumping them into shallow cardboard boxes before throwing them away
to make sure I didn't throw away any Ninja Turtle weapons.
And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including cars. We've
had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans. Had
one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY place that was
clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it's
impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their things that
they were easily and naturally reciprocating.
I don't think it should be considered "amazing" to say that it doesn't seem
right or good for a mom to just calmly accept that a three year old would pour
a drink into a hole in a van. Some holes in vans would cause expensive
damage if a soda was poured into them.
Why would a child pour out a soda anywhere besides the ground or a sink? My
guesses, which could be wrong, would be out of frustration or spite, out of
some desperation for input or to take attention away from other people. The
suggestion that it was because the irritating neighbor was there makes sense.
But in families in which I've seen parents do things I consider shocking,
like putting toys away in a hostile fashion (taking creations apart and slamming
the parts in a box while going on about how the kids should have put things
away themselves) or have been mean to kids or yelled at them until the kids
weren't listening anymore, or whose kids can say "Mom. Mom. Mom?" six times
and get no response, I've seen kids do some things to get attention. Sometimes
physical things to their own bodies.
If we say "Oh, good mothering!" about every story that comes here, we could
just replace this list with a webpage on which you write your problem, click
"help" and random messages appear like
"Well you know your kids better than anyone! Do what feels right."
or
"Your kids are so lucky to have you as their mom!"
When there's a mess made here, whoever made it calls for help, and anyone
within range grabs rags or a sponge or paper towels and goes to save the
carpet/table/keyboard or whatever it is.
Marty did make one AMAZING mess when he was two. He poured out half a
gallon of apple juice. He didn't mean to, but he picked up the pitcher, and it was
so heavy all he could do was try to hold it as it slowly spilled on the
floor, and he gave up.
I went to run him a bath, so I could come back and clean it up. The bath
water was running. I went back and he had opened the cardboard can of instant
hot chocolate and spilled THAT, on top of the apple juice, which resists that
powdered milk.
Heck of a mess. But it was my fault because he was obviously thirsty, and I
had left him and juice too close together. The doorbell rang and it was a
friend of mine so she sat in the bathroom with Marty while he was in the bathtub
and I cleaned the kitchen floor.
So I'm not trying to say my kids are angels who never did anything wrong, but
the story told seemed to involve an ongoing stress fest, and if extreme
behavior like that is going unnoted and unaddressed, and a social worker is already
involved, it IS a problem.
I don't think all families can unschool. I think unschooling is a luxury in
times of plenty and health. I think the principles of attachment parenting
can help in even little ways, under any circumstances, but sometimes things get
very disjointed and it takes some concentrated attention on healing to get
back to a stable starting place.
Sandra
<< I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". >>
We've always helped each other clean up messes here. That means I've never
expected a child to clean up totally alone ANY kind of mess. And the
reciprocal happened: if I break a glass or spill something or whatever, the nearest
kid is quick to just start helping, until the mess is picked up.
I would never have broken one of their toys or even messed up their
arrangements of action figures or stuffed animals. I used to go through the vacuum
clean bags by dumping them into shallow cardboard boxes before throwing them away
to make sure I didn't throw away any Ninja Turtle weapons.
And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including cars. We've
had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans. Had
one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY place that was
clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it's
impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their things that
they were easily and naturally reciprocating.
I don't think it should be considered "amazing" to say that it doesn't seem
right or good for a mom to just calmly accept that a three year old would pour
a drink into a hole in a van. Some holes in vans would cause expensive
damage if a soda was poured into them.
Why would a child pour out a soda anywhere besides the ground or a sink? My
guesses, which could be wrong, would be out of frustration or spite, out of
some desperation for input or to take attention away from other people. The
suggestion that it was because the irritating neighbor was there makes sense.
But in families in which I've seen parents do things I consider shocking,
like putting toys away in a hostile fashion (taking creations apart and slamming
the parts in a box while going on about how the kids should have put things
away themselves) or have been mean to kids or yelled at them until the kids
weren't listening anymore, or whose kids can say "Mom. Mom. Mom?" six times
and get no response, I've seen kids do some things to get attention. Sometimes
physical things to their own bodies.
If we say "Oh, good mothering!" about every story that comes here, we could
just replace this list with a webpage on which you write your problem, click
"help" and random messages appear like
"Well you know your kids better than anyone! Do what feels right."
or
"Your kids are so lucky to have you as their mom!"
When there's a mess made here, whoever made it calls for help, and anyone
within range grabs rags or a sponge or paper towels and goes to save the
carpet/table/keyboard or whatever it is.
Marty did make one AMAZING mess when he was two. He poured out half a
gallon of apple juice. He didn't mean to, but he picked up the pitcher, and it was
so heavy all he could do was try to hold it as it slowly spilled on the
floor, and he gave up.
I went to run him a bath, so I could come back and clean it up. The bath
water was running. I went back and he had opened the cardboard can of instant
hot chocolate and spilled THAT, on top of the apple juice, which resists that
powdered milk.
Heck of a mess. But it was my fault because he was obviously thirsty, and I
had left him and juice too close together. The doorbell rang and it was a
friend of mine so she sat in the bathroom with Marty while he was in the bathtub
and I cleaned the kitchen floor.
So I'm not trying to say my kids are angels who never did anything wrong, but
the story told seemed to involve an ongoing stress fest, and if extreme
behavior like that is going unnoted and unaddressed, and a social worker is already
involved, it IS a problem.
I don't think all families can unschool. I think unschooling is a luxury in
times of plenty and health. I think the principles of attachment parenting
can help in even little ways, under any circumstances, but sometimes things get
very disjointed and it takes some concentrated attention on healing to get
back to a stable starting place.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>But you're looking at it as purposefully making a mess. I read it and
>And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
>purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including
>cars. We've
>had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans. Had
>one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY place
>that was
>clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it's
>impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their
>things that
>they were easily and naturally reciprocating.
thought, 3 year old experimenting and making a mess as a side effect of not
knowing exactly what would happen.
>Why would a child pour out a soda anywhere besides the ground or a sink? MyThat's certainly a possibility MamaBeth should look at, but experimenting
>guesses, which could be wrong, would be out of frustration or spite, out of
>some desperation for input or to take attention away from other people. The
>suggestion that it was because the irritating neighbor was there makes
>sense.
still sounds likely for a 3 year old.
Tia
Stepheny
Frankie when he was two kept turning on the microwave. He was not really talking at the time. I took him aside and told him food had to be in it before you could turn it on. You could not just turn it on when it was empty. I came home from work a few nights later and the house really stunk. Frankie had taken a mac and cheese box out of the cabinet and put it in the microwave, turned it on, and dad didn't notice it until it was really burnt up. That meant that dad was not seeing to Frankies needs as he must have been hungry and dad wasn't listening nor watching him very well either. I came home from work and have stayed home since.
We don't drink very many drinks in our new van because we want to keep it nice. That was everyone's decision. Frankie did pour sugar in the armrest. Although I was relieved to find out it wasn't wet, I did kind of get a little sore about it. He slammed the fridge door the other night and broke the bottom shelf on the door. I really let him know that it was broke because he slammed it. He is being very careful with the fridge door now. But Caitlin instantly went to trying to fix it the best she could. It will no longer hold mayonaise or things heavy like that.
He didn't want to break it, it was a result of a temper tantrum because there was no milk. We had probably just run out. I don't know why he put the sugar in the arm rest. I told him why I didn't think it was good and he said oh ok. And I let him know right then and there that wet things will ruin the power windows. Another ok.We go through a lot of that with him. Some things I think are happening now because he seems to just be coming out of that everything centers around him. He is 9 now. Like he is realizing there is a big wide world out there or something. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We don't drink very many drinks in our new van because we want to keep it nice. That was everyone's decision. Frankie did pour sugar in the armrest. Although I was relieved to find out it wasn't wet, I did kind of get a little sore about it. He slammed the fridge door the other night and broke the bottom shelf on the door. I really let him know that it was broke because he slammed it. He is being very careful with the fridge door now. But Caitlin instantly went to trying to fix it the best she could. It will no longer hold mayonaise or things heavy like that.
He didn't want to break it, it was a result of a temper tantrum because there was no milk. We had probably just run out. I don't know why he put the sugar in the arm rest. I told him why I didn't think it was good and he said oh ok. And I let him know right then and there that wet things will ruin the power windows. Another ok.We go through a lot of that with him. Some things I think are happening now because he seems to just be coming out of that everything centers around him. He is 9 now. Like he is realizing there is a big wide world out there or something. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 1/11/04 12:32 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
My first reaction was that pouring a soda into a cup holder sounded like
something a 3yo might do. But maybe what you're saying is that if mom is
reacting to a soda overflowing a cup and a soda poured into an inappropriate
place with the same reaction like "Let's get this cleaned up," then the
child isn't being provided with the important information they need to start
making judgements about when it's appropriate to do something and when it
isn't.
I think there's another piece of information missing too. It isn't just
treating a child's things with respect that will help a child learn to
respect other people's things. I think a mom could dig through vacuum bags
because it's part of the job she's taken on -- and because Sandra said it's
important ;-) -- but not pass on the message of respect for each other.
Digging through vaccuum bags is something that someone who strongly believes
in respecting others would choose to do for someone else, rather than
choosing digging through vaccuum bags as a way to show respect.
It's the difference between living a principle you believe in and going
through the motions of what you want kids to learn.
Joyce
> I don't think it should be considered "amazing" to say that it doesn't seemOh, I think I get your point.
> right or good for a mom to just calmly accept that a three year old would
> pour
> a drink into a hole in a van. Some holes in vans would cause expensive
> damage if a soda was poured into them.
My first reaction was that pouring a soda into a cup holder sounded like
something a 3yo might do. But maybe what you're saying is that if mom is
reacting to a soda overflowing a cup and a soda poured into an inappropriate
place with the same reaction like "Let's get this cleaned up," then the
child isn't being provided with the important information they need to start
making judgements about when it's appropriate to do something and when it
isn't.
I think there's another piece of information missing too. It isn't just
treating a child's things with respect that will help a child learn to
respect other people's things. I think a mom could dig through vacuum bags
because it's part of the job she's taken on -- and because Sandra said it's
important ;-) -- but not pass on the message of respect for each other.
Digging through vaccuum bags is something that someone who strongly believes
in respecting others would choose to do for someone else, rather than
choosing digging through vaccuum bags as a way to show respect.
It's the difference between living a principle you believe in and going
through the motions of what you want kids to learn.
Joyce
Amy McCormick
I had been following this thread with growing amusement, until I read this.
<<And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including cars. We've
had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans. Had
one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY place that was
clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it's impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their things that
they were easily and naturally reciprocating.>>
That a child of 3 will reciprocate or emulate respectful behavior shown to them is absolutely TRUE. But to expect a child of 3 to know that pouring out a drink into a cup holder is NOT being "kind and careful" is a stretch. Cause and effect are not entirely clear at this age, nor are consequences, such as messes and how to get something OUT once it's in - Knots, little things stuck in small-necked bottles, small toys poked into a knothole in paneling because "that is a fairy house," etc. To insinuate this is because of disrespect (lack of "kindness and caring") with children and their posessions, for this one situation, is a reach.
If I had to acknowledge my own judgment, I personally would never, ever give a 3-year-old an open soda or drink of any kind in my car. I DO believe in some rules for little people, with a gradual relaxation as they mature, gain better motor control, and understand cause and effect. Even now my 5-year-old daughter has a two-hand rule with drinks in the car, and only if we are parked, where we hand her the drink, she takes it with two hands, drinks it with two hands, and then passes it back with two hands. The only exception is a sippy cup with a small amount in it when on a long trip, and that is always water. My daughter is also not allowed in the front of the vehicle ever, even when parked, as recommended by all child automobile safety guidelines, so there is no danger of releasing the emergency break, etc., an effective preventative for pouring a drink into any electronic equipment, for instance. As for the adults, we also do not drink in a moving vehicle unless it is a long trip and it is in a closed container (like a travel coffee mug). I am unwilling to accept the mess of liquids and stains in my car or anywhere in my house outside of my kitchen or dining room, so we have rules in place to avoid the problem entirely. This is what works for us, period. As for other folks who advocate more freedom, to each their own. I unschool; I don't unparent.
It is also because I know that children do like to try new things, and little holes or cubbies are irresistible, as is any kind of water play. With an open soda and the boredom that can accompany frequent car trips, to make a judgment on parenting ability because of a child doing this is ludicrous.
I will not comment on the social worker visits, etc., because I cannot know the situation based on a few posts. To assume or insinuate there is violence or constant yelling is prejudice, plain and simple, unless, of course, I have missed the posts that detail such behavior, in which case I stand corrected. I do agree that there are definitely some boundary issues clearly evident in these posts (toxic friends, etc.), and boundary issues always send up red flags for me, but I really don't feel I have a 3D perspective of the situation from a few e-mails to comment on that.
Frankly, I have a bigger problem with the post asking if a mother has the right to ask her kids to keep their rooms clean when there are snakes and rats/mice nesting in their rooms! A huge part of parenting is providing a safe and harmonious environment for children. I would expect social workers to be involved in THAT situation, for certain, as children are in danger of rodent-borne illness, snake bite, etc. I actually thought that post was a joke and still am hoping it is!
Respectfully to all,
Amy
<<And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including cars. We've
had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans. Had
one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY place that was
clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it's impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their things that
they were easily and naturally reciprocating.>>
That a child of 3 will reciprocate or emulate respectful behavior shown to them is absolutely TRUE. But to expect a child of 3 to know that pouring out a drink into a cup holder is NOT being "kind and careful" is a stretch. Cause and effect are not entirely clear at this age, nor are consequences, such as messes and how to get something OUT once it's in - Knots, little things stuck in small-necked bottles, small toys poked into a knothole in paneling because "that is a fairy house," etc. To insinuate this is because of disrespect (lack of "kindness and caring") with children and their posessions, for this one situation, is a reach.
If I had to acknowledge my own judgment, I personally would never, ever give a 3-year-old an open soda or drink of any kind in my car. I DO believe in some rules for little people, with a gradual relaxation as they mature, gain better motor control, and understand cause and effect. Even now my 5-year-old daughter has a two-hand rule with drinks in the car, and only if we are parked, where we hand her the drink, she takes it with two hands, drinks it with two hands, and then passes it back with two hands. The only exception is a sippy cup with a small amount in it when on a long trip, and that is always water. My daughter is also not allowed in the front of the vehicle ever, even when parked, as recommended by all child automobile safety guidelines, so there is no danger of releasing the emergency break, etc., an effective preventative for pouring a drink into any electronic equipment, for instance. As for the adults, we also do not drink in a moving vehicle unless it is a long trip and it is in a closed container (like a travel coffee mug). I am unwilling to accept the mess of liquids and stains in my car or anywhere in my house outside of my kitchen or dining room, so we have rules in place to avoid the problem entirely. This is what works for us, period. As for other folks who advocate more freedom, to each their own. I unschool; I don't unparent.
It is also because I know that children do like to try new things, and little holes or cubbies are irresistible, as is any kind of water play. With an open soda and the boredom that can accompany frequent car trips, to make a judgment on parenting ability because of a child doing this is ludicrous.
I will not comment on the social worker visits, etc., because I cannot know the situation based on a few posts. To assume or insinuate there is violence or constant yelling is prejudice, plain and simple, unless, of course, I have missed the posts that detail such behavior, in which case I stand corrected. I do agree that there are definitely some boundary issues clearly evident in these posts (toxic friends, etc.), and boundary issues always send up red flags for me, but I really don't feel I have a 3D perspective of the situation from a few e-mails to comment on that.
Frankly, I have a bigger problem with the post asking if a mother has the right to ask her kids to keep their rooms clean when there are snakes and rats/mice nesting in their rooms! A huge part of parenting is providing a safe and harmonious environment for children. I would expect social workers to be involved in THAT situation, for certain, as children are in danger of rodent-borne illness, snake bite, etc. I actually thought that post was a joke and still am hoping it is!
Respectfully to all,
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Kids "going insane"
In a message dated 1/10/04 9:29:12 PM, sherrycook@... writes:
<< I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". >>
We've always helped each other clean up messes here. That means I've never
expected a child to clean up totally alone ANY kind of mess. And the
reciprocal happened: if I break a glass or spill something or whatever, the nearest
kid is quick to just start helping, until the mess is picked up.
I would never have broken one of their toys or even messed up their
arrangements of action figures or stuffed animals. I used to go through the vacuum
clean bags by dumping them into shallow cardboard boxes before throwing them away
to make sure I didn't throw away any Ninja Turtle weapons.
And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including cars. We've
had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans. Had
one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY place that was
clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it's
impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their things that
they were easily and naturally reciprocating.
I don't think it should be considered "amazing" to say that it doesn't seem
right or good for a mom to just calmly accept that a three year old would pour
a drink into a hole in a van. Some holes in vans would cause expensive
damage if a soda was poured into them.
Why would a child pour out a soda anywhere besides the ground or a sink? My
guesses, which could be wrong, would be out of frustration or spite, out of
some desperation for input or to take attention away from other people. The
suggestion that it was because the irritating neighbor was there makes sense.
But in families in which I've seen parents do things I consider shocking,
like putting toys away in a hostile fashion (taking creations apart and slamming
the parts in a box while going on about how the kids should have put things
away themselves) or have been mean to kids or yelled at them until the kids
weren't listening anymore, or whose kids can say "Mom. Mom. Mom?" six times
and get no response, I've seen kids do some things to get attention. Sometimes
physical things to their own bodies.
If we say "Oh, good mothering!" about every story that comes here, we could
just replace this list with a webpage on which you write your problem, click
"help" and random messages appear like
"Well you know your kids better than anyone! Do what feels right."
or
"Your kids are so lucky to have you as their mom!"
When there's a mess made here, whoever made it calls for help, and anyone
within range grabs rags or a sponge or paper towels and goes to save the
carpet/table/keyboard or whatever it is.
Marty did make one AMAZING mess when he was two. He poured out half a
gallon of apple juice. He didn't mean to, but he picked up the pitcher, and it was
so heavy all he could do was try to hold it as it slowly spilled on the
floor, and he gave up.
I went to run him a bath, so I could come back and clean it up. The bath
water was running. I went back and he had opened the cardboard can of instant
hot chocolate and spilled THAT, on top of the apple juice, which resists that
powdered milk.
Heck of a mess. But it was my fault because he was obviously thirsty, and I
had left him and juice too close together. The doorbell rang and it was a
friend of mine so she sat in the bathroom with Marty while he was in the bathtub
and I cleaned the kitchen floor.
So I'm not trying to say my kids are angels who never did anything wrong, but
the story told seemed to involve an ongoing stress fest, and if extreme
behavior like that is going unnoted and unaddressed, and a social worker is already
involved, it IS a problem.
I don't think all families can unschool. I think unschooling is a luxury in
times of plenty and health. I think the principles of attachment parenting
can help in even little ways, under any circumstances, but sometimes things get
very disjointed and it takes some concentrated attention on healing to get
back to a stable starting place.
Sandra
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In a message dated 1/11/04 9:10:16 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< But maybe what you're saying is that if mom is
reacting to a soda overflowing a cup and a soda poured into an inappropriate
place with the same reaction like "Let's get this cleaned up," then the
child isn't being provided with the important information they need to start
making judgements about when it's appropriate to do something and when it
isn't. >>
Yes.
An accident should be handled differently than something deliberately done.
If my teapot is broken and on the floor, will I be angry?
Not if it was an accident. If a child picked it up, looked around, and
dropped it to experiment and see if it would break, I'm going to wonder why the
child cares so little about me, my things, my time, possibly being injured, the
expense of a new teapot... It's not the one act, it's the greater situation
and relationship.
Spilling in the van will happen if kids are allowed drinks in there. I've
certainly picked toddlers up out of puddles in carseats before. I've never had
a toddler eyeball me in the rearview mirror, pull the lid off his drink and
pour it out.
I'm not trying to be holier than thou about this. I'm trying to say that
there are few acts or responses between parents and children, husbands and wives,
any set of people who have an ongoing relationship, which are not indicative
of their mutual trust and cooperation (or lack thereof). And every response
we make to our children will affect the future of that relationship. If I
backhanded Holly for dropping a teapot, I could apologize like crazy for a year,
but it wouldn't rewind/erase/record for either of us. Similarly, if I
treated a deliberate act the same way I would treat an accident, even if I did it
carelessly, Holly would notice. And IF I carelessly don't bother to
discriminate between accidents and deliberate messes, it would be because I wasn't paying
enough attention to *Holly.* Not to Holly being in the van and whether her
soda was still in her cup, but to whether Holly was comfortable, happy, still
wanted her soda or was through with it, or whatever.
<<Digging through vaccuum bags is something that someone who strongly believes
in respecting others would choose to do for someone else, rather than
choosing digging through vaccuum bags as a way to show respect.>>
I just knew how much he loved his Ninja Turtles. He still has ever weapon
and piece he ever had except for April O'Neil's gun. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it didn't show up someday, having been under the flap in the bottom of a
cardboard box from when we moved.
<<It's the difference between living a principle you believe in and going
through the motions of what you want kids to learn.>>
What's that quote? (It's quote season, maybe someone will know it.)
"Change your beliefs, and your actions will follow"?? Something like that.
If people change action instead of changing belief, they'll be awkward at
what they're doing at best, and eventually will break down in tears or anger
because they have no idea what they're doing, and it's not working.
If someone really believes teaching is necessary for learning, but she just
leaves her kids alone, watching them from the doorway every few hours, she will
end up angry with them for not learning on their own, angry with us for
giving her bad advice, and angry with herself for not just doing what she believed
was right in the first place.
If someone is willing to read more than they thought they should've needed
to, willing to let people say "WHY do you keep saying 'teach' or 'have to'?" and
eventually readjust some of their own internal organization regarding how
people should/must/can/might be, then when they really believe it can work, they
don't need people to tell them what to do. Then they can tell what needs to
be done, by being with their child.
Sandra
<< But maybe what you're saying is that if mom is
reacting to a soda overflowing a cup and a soda poured into an inappropriate
place with the same reaction like "Let's get this cleaned up," then the
child isn't being provided with the important information they need to start
making judgements about when it's appropriate to do something and when it
isn't. >>
Yes.
An accident should be handled differently than something deliberately done.
If my teapot is broken and on the floor, will I be angry?
Not if it was an accident. If a child picked it up, looked around, and
dropped it to experiment and see if it would break, I'm going to wonder why the
child cares so little about me, my things, my time, possibly being injured, the
expense of a new teapot... It's not the one act, it's the greater situation
and relationship.
Spilling in the van will happen if kids are allowed drinks in there. I've
certainly picked toddlers up out of puddles in carseats before. I've never had
a toddler eyeball me in the rearview mirror, pull the lid off his drink and
pour it out.
I'm not trying to be holier than thou about this. I'm trying to say that
there are few acts or responses between parents and children, husbands and wives,
any set of people who have an ongoing relationship, which are not indicative
of their mutual trust and cooperation (or lack thereof). And every response
we make to our children will affect the future of that relationship. If I
backhanded Holly for dropping a teapot, I could apologize like crazy for a year,
but it wouldn't rewind/erase/record for either of us. Similarly, if I
treated a deliberate act the same way I would treat an accident, even if I did it
carelessly, Holly would notice. And IF I carelessly don't bother to
discriminate between accidents and deliberate messes, it would be because I wasn't paying
enough attention to *Holly.* Not to Holly being in the van and whether her
soda was still in her cup, but to whether Holly was comfortable, happy, still
wanted her soda or was through with it, or whatever.
<<Digging through vaccuum bags is something that someone who strongly believes
in respecting others would choose to do for someone else, rather than
choosing digging through vaccuum bags as a way to show respect.>>
I just knew how much he loved his Ninja Turtles. He still has ever weapon
and piece he ever had except for April O'Neil's gun. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it didn't show up someday, having been under the flap in the bottom of a
cardboard box from when we moved.
<<It's the difference between living a principle you believe in and going
through the motions of what you want kids to learn.>>
What's that quote? (It's quote season, maybe someone will know it.)
"Change your beliefs, and your actions will follow"?? Something like that.
If people change action instead of changing belief, they'll be awkward at
what they're doing at best, and eventually will break down in tears or anger
because they have no idea what they're doing, and it's not working.
If someone really believes teaching is necessary for learning, but she just
leaves her kids alone, watching them from the doorway every few hours, she will
end up angry with them for not learning on their own, angry with us for
giving her bad advice, and angry with herself for not just doing what she believed
was right in the first place.
If someone is willing to read more than they thought they should've needed
to, willing to let people say "WHY do you keep saying 'teach' or 'have to'?" and
eventually readjust some of their own internal organization regarding how
people should/must/can/might be, then when they really believe it can work, they
don't need people to tell them what to do. Then they can tell what needs to
be done, by being with their child.
Sandra
[email protected]
<< Had one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY
place that was clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. >>
In a message dated 1/11/04 10:34:21 AM, cottagevt@... wrote:
-=-But to expect a child of 3 to know that pouring out a drink into a cup
holder is NOT being "kind and careful" is a stretch. -=-
What I said was had one of mine done it, I would have been stunned. I've had
three kids who didn't do it. I didn't give them drinks that weren't in
kid-cups, though, either, so that's part of it perhaps. But I gave them lots of
chances to pour liquids in appropriate places and times.
Kids DO need to experiment, and explore. If parents are providing lots of
togetherness and exploration, there will be fewer messes. If kids are being
taken outside enough for them, they won't need to escape. There are principles
which can be applied to make situations better for parents, children and
families.
<< I DO believe in some rules for little people, with a gradual relaxation as
they mature, gain better motor control, and understand cause and effect.
Even now my 5-year-old daughter has a two-hand rule with drinks in the car>>
My kids would gladly hold a drink with two hands when we asked them to, but
we used cups with handles (that you drink through the handle) or small
tupperware cups with sipper seals AND we would put a straw in it, so they were safe
one-handed.
Principle and practicality can work better than rules sometimes.
<<I am unwilling to accept the mess of liquids and stains in my car or
anywhere in my house outside of my kitchen or dining room, so we have rules in place
to avoid the problem entirely. This is what works for us, period.>>
"Period" meaning you don't think it should be discussed?
I might have different priorities if I had a badillion dollar house and
carpet, but I don't. I have kids who are careful with drinks all over the world,
whether they're in my house or someone else's or a restaurant or a park.
Here's the start of a collection of commentary on principles vs. rules.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
There was a workshop on living by principles at the Live & Learn conference
last August. It was especially inspiring, as the dad who ran it attended The
Citadel and had been a military officer for years.
<<I unschool; I don't unparent.>>
Just as it can take more effort, thought and attention to unschool than to
use a curriculum, it's not "doing nothing" to live by principles instead of by
rules.
<<It is also because I know that children do like to try new things, and
little holes or cubbies are irresistible, as is any kind of water play. >>
"Any kind of water play" is more resistable to a child who has been told,
"Yes! Sure, go outside and play. Here's a super-soaker. There's a pool. Use
the sprinkler! Have fun!" than to a child who has been told to stay in, sit
down, be quiet. There's a principle. Children do need to play with liquids.
It's a great learning opportunity which parents should and need to provide.
<<With an open soda and the boredom that can accompany frequent car trips, to
make a judgment on parenting ability because of a child doing this is
ludicrous. >>
The word "ludicrous" is too strong for use on this list, in my opinion.
The discussion was about general principles of parenting, and people have
come to this list for such discussions.
<<but I really don't feel I have a 3D perspective of the situation from a few
e-mails to comment on that>>
We don't need 3D perspective to comment on what people choose voluntarily and
freely to share in public. If I mention Holly cut off and dyed her hair,
people can discuss children chopping and dying without having to see Holly's
haircut.
Sandra
P.S. pre-pinkness, it's here:
http://sandradodd.com/holly
place that was clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. >>
In a message dated 1/11/04 10:34:21 AM, cottagevt@... wrote:
-=-But to expect a child of 3 to know that pouring out a drink into a cup
holder is NOT being "kind and careful" is a stretch. -=-
What I said was had one of mine done it, I would have been stunned. I've had
three kids who didn't do it. I didn't give them drinks that weren't in
kid-cups, though, either, so that's part of it perhaps. But I gave them lots of
chances to pour liquids in appropriate places and times.
Kids DO need to experiment, and explore. If parents are providing lots of
togetherness and exploration, there will be fewer messes. If kids are being
taken outside enough for them, they won't need to escape. There are principles
which can be applied to make situations better for parents, children and
families.
<< I DO believe in some rules for little people, with a gradual relaxation as
they mature, gain better motor control, and understand cause and effect.
Even now my 5-year-old daughter has a two-hand rule with drinks in the car>>
My kids would gladly hold a drink with two hands when we asked them to, but
we used cups with handles (that you drink through the handle) or small
tupperware cups with sipper seals AND we would put a straw in it, so they were safe
one-handed.
Principle and practicality can work better than rules sometimes.
<<I am unwilling to accept the mess of liquids and stains in my car or
anywhere in my house outside of my kitchen or dining room, so we have rules in place
to avoid the problem entirely. This is what works for us, period.>>
"Period" meaning you don't think it should be discussed?
I might have different priorities if I had a badillion dollar house and
carpet, but I don't. I have kids who are careful with drinks all over the world,
whether they're in my house or someone else's or a restaurant or a park.
Here's the start of a collection of commentary on principles vs. rules.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
There was a workshop on living by principles at the Live & Learn conference
last August. It was especially inspiring, as the dad who ran it attended The
Citadel and had been a military officer for years.
<<I unschool; I don't unparent.>>
Just as it can take more effort, thought and attention to unschool than to
use a curriculum, it's not "doing nothing" to live by principles instead of by
rules.
<<It is also because I know that children do like to try new things, and
little holes or cubbies are irresistible, as is any kind of water play. >>
"Any kind of water play" is more resistable to a child who has been told,
"Yes! Sure, go outside and play. Here's a super-soaker. There's a pool. Use
the sprinkler! Have fun!" than to a child who has been told to stay in, sit
down, be quiet. There's a principle. Children do need to play with liquids.
It's a great learning opportunity which parents should and need to provide.
<<With an open soda and the boredom that can accompany frequent car trips, to
make a judgment on parenting ability because of a child doing this is
ludicrous. >>
The word "ludicrous" is too strong for use on this list, in my opinion.
The discussion was about general principles of parenting, and people have
come to this list for such discussions.
<<but I really don't feel I have a 3D perspective of the situation from a few
e-mails to comment on that>>
We don't need 3D perspective to comment on what people choose voluntarily and
freely to share in public. If I mention Holly cut off and dyed her hair,
people can discuss children chopping and dying without having to see Holly's
haircut.
Sandra
P.S. pre-pinkness, it's here:
http://sandradodd.com/holly
Elizabeth Roberts
Yes, Logan is 3.
scookeafan <sherrycook@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
things should be poured out into a sink and not into the van.
about this incident. Sounded like a perfectly normal "kid
experimenting moment" to me, (MamaBeth did say her son was 3 years
old, right?). You'd probably be appalled at some of the
"experimenting" my youngest son does!
I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". (although this approach is not always successful
with dh and my teenage ds!;-) They tend to need extra "reminding".
Sherry
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scookeafan <sherrycook@...> wrote:--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
>just asked him clean it up. I'd also reminded him that sodas and other
> I never said that it was ok for Logan to have poured out the Coke, I
things should be poured out into a sink and not into the van.
>I must admit, I'm amazed at some of the comments that have been made
about this incident. Sounded like a perfectly normal "kid
experimenting moment" to me, (MamaBeth did say her son was 3 years
old, right?). You'd probably be appalled at some of the
"experimenting" my youngest son does!
I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
you clean it up". (although this approach is not always successful
with dh and my teenage ds!;-) They tend to need extra "reminding".
Sherry
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TreeGoddess
The first poster that mentioned a snake coming into their home did not
indicate that it was "nesting" in their home and it was not in anyone's
bedroom or even the main area of the home. Perhaps you may want reread
that thread because I think you missed some vital info if that's the
conclusion that you've drawn.
-Tracy-
indicate that it was "nesting" in their home and it was not in anyone's
bedroom or even the main area of the home. Perhaps you may want reread
that thread because I think you missed some vital info if that's the
conclusion that you've drawn.
-Tracy-
On Jan 11, 2004, at 11:57 AM, Amy McCormick wrote:
> Frankly, I have a bigger problem with the post asking if a mother has
> the right to ask her kids to keep their rooms clean when there are
> snakes and rats/mice nesting in their rooms! <snip> I would expect
> social workers to be involved in THAT situation, for certain, as
> children are in danger of rodent-borne illness, snake bite, etc. I
> actually thought that post was a joke and still am hoping it is!
Fetteroll
on 1/11/04 12:56 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
If mom's taken the child out twice and the child wants more, denying the
child another trip out because mom thinks twice is enough won't make the
child's need adjust to suit mom's convenience.
A child going through a growth spurt needs the amount of food he needs, not
the amount of food mom thinks is enough.
A child going through an "I need to explore the world" spurt needs the
number of trips out that he needs, not the number of trips out mom thinks is
enough.
We can't always provide them with what they need at the moment they need it,
but we can communicate that their needs are important to us and we'll do the
best we can, not an inconvenience. If we think of their needs as food they
need, then perhaps it's easier to understand the principle. To a hungry
child we wouldn't say soon and then hope they forget. But we would say lets
figure out how to get you some food and then we'd be sure to make that it
did happen.
Joyce
> If kids are being taken outside enough for them, they won't need to escape.*For them* is a key phrase.
If mom's taken the child out twice and the child wants more, denying the
child another trip out because mom thinks twice is enough won't make the
child's need adjust to suit mom's convenience.
A child going through a growth spurt needs the amount of food he needs, not
the amount of food mom thinks is enough.
A child going through an "I need to explore the world" spurt needs the
number of trips out that he needs, not the number of trips out mom thinks is
enough.
We can't always provide them with what they need at the moment they need it,
but we can communicate that their needs are important to us and we'll do the
best we can, not an inconvenience. If we think of their needs as food they
need, then perhaps it's easier to understand the principle. To a hungry
child we wouldn't say soon and then hope they forget. But we would say lets
figure out how to get you some food and then we'd be sure to make that it
did happen.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/2004 11:33:09 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
be able to be here with the kids right now and really how lucky they are too. I
feel bad not everyone gets a chance at this lifestyle but then there are
probably a good many who could not/would not embrace it either. (adults I mean)
Laura Buoni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I don't think all families can unschool. I think unschooling is a luxuryYes, I like this, I was thinking the same thing recently, how lucky I am to
> in
> times of plenty and health.
be able to be here with the kids right now and really how lucky they are too. I
feel bad not everyone gets a chance at this lifestyle but then there are
probably a good many who could not/would not embrace it either. (adults I mean)
Laura Buoni
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
That's why Logan was sneaking out so much last summer. I was in late pregnancy, uncomfortable, and unable to, and at times unwilling, to spend all day sitting outside in the muggy heat to watch him play. So he'd sneak out. He didn't understand that the worst hours of the day for the heat weren't the best times for me to be outside, or that I had to make lunch, or just needed to be inside awhile. No matter how often I took him out in the early morning and late afternoons when the heat wasn't so bad, he wanted to be outside ALL day.
Maybe I was just being selfish on that point, but I can't go back and change that that is what was going on. His sneaking out is what led to the social worker being involved in our lives.
All I can do is make it possible that next summer, if he's still wanting to be outside so much, we can work out a suitable arrangement so that it can happen.
MamaBeth
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
on 1/11/04 12:56 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
If mom's taken the child out twice and the child wants more, denying the
child another trip out because mom thinks twice is enough won't make the
child's need adjust to suit mom's convenience.
A child going through a growth spurt needs the amount of food he needs, not
the amount of food mom thinks is enough.
A child going through an "I need to explore the world" spurt needs the
number of trips out that he needs, not the number of trips out mom thinks is
enough.
We can't always provide them with what they need at the moment they need it,
but we can communicate that their needs are important to us and we'll do the
best we can, not an inconvenience. If we think of their needs as food they
need, then perhaps it's easier to understand the principle. To a hungry
child we wouldn't say soon and then hope they forget. But we would say lets
figure out how to get you some food and then we'd be sure to make that it
did happen.
Joyce
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe I was just being selfish on that point, but I can't go back and change that that is what was going on. His sneaking out is what led to the social worker being involved in our lives.
All I can do is make it possible that next summer, if he's still wanting to be outside so much, we can work out a suitable arrangement so that it can happen.
MamaBeth
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
on 1/11/04 12:56 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
> If kids are being taken outside enough for them, they won't need to escape.*For them* is a key phrase.
If mom's taken the child out twice and the child wants more, denying the
child another trip out because mom thinks twice is enough won't make the
child's need adjust to suit mom's convenience.
A child going through a growth spurt needs the amount of food he needs, not
the amount of food mom thinks is enough.
A child going through an "I need to explore the world" spurt needs the
number of trips out that he needs, not the number of trips out mom thinks is
enough.
We can't always provide them with what they need at the moment they need it,
but we can communicate that their needs are important to us and we'll do the
best we can, not an inconvenience. If we think of their needs as food they
need, then perhaps it's easier to understand the principle. To a hungry
child we wouldn't say soon and then hope they forget. But we would say lets
figure out how to get you some food and then we'd be sure to make that it
did happen.
Joyce
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Wife2Vegman
Do you think that perhaps also that a child of 3
doesn't understand why the mom lets other people treat
her badly but they are supposed to be different?
That doesn't sound the way I mean it, but I can't
figure out another way to phrase it.
For instance, I had a friend whose child was
constantly being disrespectful (I don't mean in just a
child to adult way, but in a general person to person
way), and even hitting me and throwing things at me
when he would get upset at my house.
I wasn't sure how to react since the mom didn't seem
to care or take control of the situation. I tried
jollying the child out of his temper, which does not
work with some children, just makes it worse. Asking
him to stop just resulted in a torrent of curse words
at me.
My then 3.5yo started treating me the same way as this
child did, hitting me and screaming at me when upset
and not getting his way, and it would be worse after
that child came over to visit.
(I later found out the same child was also punching my
little guy and saying things like "I hate you! You're
an idiot!" when out of earshot of the parents)
I suggested we try going some place neutral like a
park instead of each other's houses, or having some
sort of activity/craft for the kids to do with us
parents rather that just letting them play until they
were tired of eachother while the moms chatted.
The mom didn't like that idea, though, feeling the
kids ought to be able to just play freely.
I finally had to ask the mom not bring her child over
any more. I told the mom that I valued her friendship
but that Aaron was beginning to treat me the same way
and I felt some time apart would be better. Aaron was
just too young to understand why her child was allowed
to act this way but he wasn't.
The mom wasn't willing to do this, though, so our
friendship died out. But after a couple months of not
seeing them, and spending time as a family treating
each other with respect and gentleness, my little guy
stopped acting that way too, and would even say, "it
was bad when {child's name} did that, wasn't it?"
What I mean is, if other people are treating the mom
badly, and no one is saying, "this is not right, this
must stop NOW," then the child isn't going to learn
that either?
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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doesn't understand why the mom lets other people treat
her badly but they are supposed to be different?
That doesn't sound the way I mean it, but I can't
figure out another way to phrase it.
For instance, I had a friend whose child was
constantly being disrespectful (I don't mean in just a
child to adult way, but in a general person to person
way), and even hitting me and throwing things at me
when he would get upset at my house.
I wasn't sure how to react since the mom didn't seem
to care or take control of the situation. I tried
jollying the child out of his temper, which does not
work with some children, just makes it worse. Asking
him to stop just resulted in a torrent of curse words
at me.
My then 3.5yo started treating me the same way as this
child did, hitting me and screaming at me when upset
and not getting his way, and it would be worse after
that child came over to visit.
(I later found out the same child was also punching my
little guy and saying things like "I hate you! You're
an idiot!" when out of earshot of the parents)
I suggested we try going some place neutral like a
park instead of each other's houses, or having some
sort of activity/craft for the kids to do with us
parents rather that just letting them play until they
were tired of eachother while the moms chatted.
The mom didn't like that idea, though, feeling the
kids ought to be able to just play freely.
I finally had to ask the mom not bring her child over
any more. I told the mom that I valued her friendship
but that Aaron was beginning to treat me the same way
and I felt some time apart would be better. Aaron was
just too young to understand why her child was allowed
to act this way but he wasn't.
The mom wasn't willing to do this, though, so our
friendship died out. But after a couple months of not
seeing them, and spending time as a family treating
each other with respect and gentleness, my little guy
stopped acting that way too, and would even say, "it
was bad when {child's name} did that, wasn't it?"
What I mean is, if other people are treating the mom
badly, and no one is saying, "this is not right, this
must stop NOW," then the child isn't going to learn
that either?
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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Danielle Conger
Sandra wrote:
"Change your beliefs, and your actions will follow"?? Something like that.
If people change action instead of changing belief, they'll be awkward at
what they're doing at best, and eventually will break down in tears or anger
because they have no idea what they're doing, and it's not working.
I think that actions and beliefs are interrelated and reciprocal rather than cause and effect. I think a person has to change both for real change to come about. One can believe in something, but if her actions do not exemplify those beliefs then the belief is kind of beside the point. Same thing with actions, like Sandra said.
Sometimes a change in one is enough to initiate a change in the other. I, for one, would rather see someone going through actions awkwardly with the hope that in doing comes believing than to listen to someone preach ideas whose actions have yet to follow.
Expressions like "I would never," "I am unwilling" and "works for us, period" seem extremely rigid to me--far more rigid than I would want anything to be in my life, that's for sure. I am always looking for better ways to do things, better ways to meet my children's need and my own needs, better ways to live our lives. Reading around on this list as well as the unschooling.com message boards have offered loads of really useful ideas--some concrete and some abstractly adaptable given further thought.
We all have our boundaries, but to dig one's feet into the ground over those boundaries without inspection and questioning is doing a disservice both to oneself and those around. I've rummaged through many a vacuum bag *after* I heard something go up--not something I do on a regular basis. We've had several small toys go up the chute only to be broken beyond repair. We found Aladdin broken in two, and I tried valiantly to melt him back together, but he always broke apart again. We had a "wounded" dinosaur around for quite a while whose vacuum injuries were incorporated into the kids' imaginative play. I don't make it a habit to dig through my vacuum bags, but I do make it a principle to respect the other members of my family, which sometimes includes digging through vacuum bags. At the same time, the kids have learned the principle that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and maybe it's better to be careful about picking things up before the vacuum comes out than to risk mom vacuuming them unwittingly.
Some boundaries ARE unbreachable, as several people on this list have already said. There is never an excuse for hurting someone or deliberately destroying property--for example, carving initials into a dining room table, like Sandra mentioned. Unschooling isn't about no boundaries any more than it's about rigid boundaries.
I was struck by Julie's post about being closed in dark closet and flinging the door open. All I could imagine was how much the light would hurt everyone's eyes, and how much kinder it would be to let that light in a bit more gradually. Maybe working more gradually, taking one boundary at a time or incremental steps in multiple boundaries would be more gentle. In my experience, extremes are rarely useful--you don't want to be wholly in the dark, but maybe not flooded by light either, at least not before your eyes have had a chance to adjust a bit.
Unschooling, for me, is about looking for a better way, giving up rigid rules and boundaries and embracing, instead, a way of life that is about joy, respect, togetherness, ease and comfort. This doesn't mean dismissing my needs or comforts, but it does mean re-examining them and being open to other ways of meeting them and new ways of thinking that might not make them seem so important after all.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Change your beliefs, and your actions will follow"?? Something like that.
If people change action instead of changing belief, they'll be awkward at
what they're doing at best, and eventually will break down in tears or anger
because they have no idea what they're doing, and it's not working.
I think that actions and beliefs are interrelated and reciprocal rather than cause and effect. I think a person has to change both for real change to come about. One can believe in something, but if her actions do not exemplify those beliefs then the belief is kind of beside the point. Same thing with actions, like Sandra said.
Sometimes a change in one is enough to initiate a change in the other. I, for one, would rather see someone going through actions awkwardly with the hope that in doing comes believing than to listen to someone preach ideas whose actions have yet to follow.
Expressions like "I would never," "I am unwilling" and "works for us, period" seem extremely rigid to me--far more rigid than I would want anything to be in my life, that's for sure. I am always looking for better ways to do things, better ways to meet my children's need and my own needs, better ways to live our lives. Reading around on this list as well as the unschooling.com message boards have offered loads of really useful ideas--some concrete and some abstractly adaptable given further thought.
We all have our boundaries, but to dig one's feet into the ground over those boundaries without inspection and questioning is doing a disservice both to oneself and those around. I've rummaged through many a vacuum bag *after* I heard something go up--not something I do on a regular basis. We've had several small toys go up the chute only to be broken beyond repair. We found Aladdin broken in two, and I tried valiantly to melt him back together, but he always broke apart again. We had a "wounded" dinosaur around for quite a while whose vacuum injuries were incorporated into the kids' imaginative play. I don't make it a habit to dig through my vacuum bags, but I do make it a principle to respect the other members of my family, which sometimes includes digging through vacuum bags. At the same time, the kids have learned the principle that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and maybe it's better to be careful about picking things up before the vacuum comes out than to risk mom vacuuming them unwittingly.
Some boundaries ARE unbreachable, as several people on this list have already said. There is never an excuse for hurting someone or deliberately destroying property--for example, carving initials into a dining room table, like Sandra mentioned. Unschooling isn't about no boundaries any more than it's about rigid boundaries.
I was struck by Julie's post about being closed in dark closet and flinging the door open. All I could imagine was how much the light would hurt everyone's eyes, and how much kinder it would be to let that light in a bit more gradually. Maybe working more gradually, taking one boundary at a time or incremental steps in multiple boundaries would be more gentle. In my experience, extremes are rarely useful--you don't want to be wholly in the dark, but maybe not flooded by light either, at least not before your eyes have had a chance to adjust a bit.
Unschooling, for me, is about looking for a better way, giving up rigid rules and boundaries and embracing, instead, a way of life that is about joy, respect, togetherness, ease and comfort. This doesn't mean dismissing my needs or comforts, but it does mean re-examining them and being open to other ways of meeting them and new ways of thinking that might not make them seem so important after all.
--danielle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Jan 11, 2004, at 12:35 PM, Elizabeth Roberts wrote:
doctor's office, no? Anyway - that there were multiple issues that got
the social services department involved?
play outdoor type of play that he can't do indoors, right? My nephew -
now 9 years old - was like this. I feel bad to say this, but I don't
think my sister handled it the best way possible and I think they all
suffered for it - to the point that she STILL doesn't like to have him
home much - has him in after-school daycare and signs him up for
all-day sports camps during vacations.
Make a room safe for him to do outdoorsy kinds of things indoors - play
with balls, etc.
Bring in BIG building stuff - those big brick type blocks - lots of
them to build big forts and things he can really crawl into, etc. You
can make those with milk cartons and shoe boxes - tape them shut tight
after filling with something to make them a little heavier so they
stack up more securely.
Or just collect a whole lot of cardboard boxes and let him paint them
and build a city or a spaceship or whatever out of them. A cardboard
box city is GREAT fun!!!
Set up obstacle courses - give him old hula hoops, boxes, little
mini-trampoline, stepstool, whatever - things to climb over and under.
Boards and wooden blocks to set them on make balance beams.
Styrofoam chunks and golf tees can be hammered.
You have an ACTIVE little boy and he needs that outlet.
He needs to NOT be in the car....that is inappropriate for him. It is
tough sometimes to not have to have young kids stuck in the car - but
for an active 3 yo kid it is very very worth it for you to find every
way to not have him stuck in the car. Giving rides to an ungrateful
neighbor is putting her needs above his. Your job right now is to put
your children's needs first. Rest assured, there will be many years
ahead of you, when your children won't need you to think so much about
them, that you'll be able to help out other people.
I'd make a rule for myself, if I was you. I'd promise myself to NEVER
again inconvenience my 3 yo because I have a problem saying "no" to
that neighbor.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Maybe I was just being selfish on that point, but I can't go back andI thought I remembered you talking about something happening in the
> change that that is what was going on. His sneaking out is what led to
> the social worker being involved in our lives.
doctor's office, no? Anyway - that there were multiple issues that got
the social services department involved?
>I'm guessing that you have a really energetic 3 yo boy who wants to
> All I can do is make it possible that next summer, if he's still
> wanting to be outside so much, we can work out a suitable arrangement
> so that it can happen.
>
play outdoor type of play that he can't do indoors, right? My nephew -
now 9 years old - was like this. I feel bad to say this, but I don't
think my sister handled it the best way possible and I think they all
suffered for it - to the point that she STILL doesn't like to have him
home much - has him in after-school daycare and signs him up for
all-day sports camps during vacations.
Make a room safe for him to do outdoorsy kinds of things indoors - play
with balls, etc.
Bring in BIG building stuff - those big brick type blocks - lots of
them to build big forts and things he can really crawl into, etc. You
can make those with milk cartons and shoe boxes - tape them shut tight
after filling with something to make them a little heavier so they
stack up more securely.
Or just collect a whole lot of cardboard boxes and let him paint them
and build a city or a spaceship or whatever out of them. A cardboard
box city is GREAT fun!!!
Set up obstacle courses - give him old hula hoops, boxes, little
mini-trampoline, stepstool, whatever - things to climb over and under.
Boards and wooden blocks to set them on make balance beams.
Styrofoam chunks and golf tees can be hammered.
You have an ACTIVE little boy and he needs that outlet.
He needs to NOT be in the car....that is inappropriate for him. It is
tough sometimes to not have to have young kids stuck in the car - but
for an active 3 yo kid it is very very worth it for you to find every
way to not have him stuck in the car. Giving rides to an ungrateful
neighbor is putting her needs above his. Your job right now is to put
your children's needs first. Rest assured, there will be many years
ahead of you, when your children won't need you to think so much about
them, that you'll be able to help out other people.
I'd make a rule for myself, if I was you. I'd promise myself to NEVER
again inconvenience my 3 yo because I have a problem saying "no" to
that neighbor.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Robyn Coburn
Since Julie hasn't replied I will just add that she is not Mamabeth, who is
the person with the social worker issue. I gather from prior posts that
Julie lives in a somewhat rural area of Australia, and snakes are not at all
rare or unusual there. It takes work to keep some of them out at the best of
times. In some places it is also hard to keep possums (a different animal
from American possums) out of the roof, and bats out of the eaves.
Robyn L. Coburn
<<The first poster that mentioned a snake coming into their home did not
indicate that it was "nesting" in their home and it was not in anyone's
bedroom or even the main area of the home.>
<snip> I would expect
the person with the social worker issue. I gather from prior posts that
Julie lives in a somewhat rural area of Australia, and snakes are not at all
rare or unusual there. It takes work to keep some of them out at the best of
times. In some places it is also hard to keep possums (a different animal
from American possums) out of the roof, and bats out of the eaves.
Robyn L. Coburn
<<The first poster that mentioned a snake coming into their home did not
indicate that it was "nesting" in their home and it was not in anyone's
bedroom or even the main area of the home.>
<snip> I would expect
> social workers to be involved in THAT situation, for certain, as[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> children are in danger of rodent-borne illness, snake bite, etc. I
> actually thought that post was a joke and still am hoping it is! >>
J. Stauffer
<<<< I don't think it should be considered "amazing" to say that it doesn't
seem
********************************************
I think a large assumption is being made here. What would you have her do?
She is driving down a road with a car load of kids. The kid makes a mess
and somehow she is informed of it. She passes back napkins to the sister to
help him clean it up. What was she supposed to do in that situation?
I know lots of kids that would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS do something like
that. Three of them live in my house. I know a few kids that would do
something like that, never out of spite, but out of getting caught up in
their own little world of seeing what happens, how it works, etc..
When Marsie was three, she bit a hole in the bottom of her cup of grape
slushie. We were in the car and she wanted to drink it out of the bottom
(why I'll never know, but she did) made a huge mess. I talked with her
about it and she later did it again. The thrill of drinking her own special
way was more appealing than the prevention of some possible mess.
When Danny was 2, he took the baseboards off his walls. Not because he was
angry, he wanted to see what was back there. When he was about 3, he broke
a wooden spoke off a Jinny Lind changing table. When asked why he said
"because I needed it Mama."
My other kids would never have done anything like this, ever. It would
simply never have occurred to them.
Julie S.
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Kids "going insane"
seem
> right or good for a mom to just calmly accept that a three year old wouldpour >>>>>
********************************************
I think a large assumption is being made here. What would you have her do?
She is driving down a road with a car load of kids. The kid makes a mess
and somehow she is informed of it. She passes back napkins to the sister to
help him clean it up. What was she supposed to do in that situation?
I know lots of kids that would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS do something like
that. Three of them live in my house. I know a few kids that would do
something like that, never out of spite, but out of getting caught up in
their own little world of seeing what happens, how it works, etc..
When Marsie was three, she bit a hole in the bottom of her cup of grape
slushie. We were in the car and she wanted to drink it out of the bottom
(why I'll never know, but she did) made a huge mess. I talked with her
about it and she later did it again. The thrill of drinking her own special
way was more appealing than the prevention of some possible mess.
When Danny was 2, he took the baseboards off his walls. Not because he was
angry, he wanted to see what was back there. When he was about 3, he broke
a wooden spoke off a Jinny Lind changing table. When asked why he said
"because I needed it Mama."
My other kids would never have done anything like this, ever. It would
simply never have occurred to them.
Julie S.
> a drink into a hole in a van.----- Original Message -----From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Kids "going insane"
>never
> In a message dated 1/10/04 9:29:12 PM, sherrycook@... writes:
>
> << I would have handled it exactly the same way MamaBeth did, without
>
> giving it a second thought. The rule at my house is "you make a mess,
>
> you clean it up". >>
>
> We've always helped each other clean up messes here. That means I've
> expected a child to clean up totally alone ANY kind of mess. And thethe nearest
> reciprocal happened: if I break a glass or spill something or whatever,
> kid is quick to just start helping, until the mess is picked up.the vacuum
>
> I would never have broken one of their toys or even messed up their
> arrangements of action figures or stuffed animals. I used to go through
> clean bags by dumping them into shallow cardboard boxes before throwingthem away
> to make sure I didn't throw away any Ninja Turtle weapons.We've
>
> And without any prompting or "rules" whatsoever, my kids never made any
> purposeful mess in or with my stuff, or in shared places, including cars.
> had cup holders in vans. We've had side storage compartments in vans.Had
> one of my kids KNOWINGLY, and purposely poured something into ANY placethat was
> clearly not for liquids I would have been stunned. Not because it'sthings that
> impossible to do, but because I had been so kind and careful with their
> they were easily and naturally reciprocating.My
>
> Some holes in vans would cause expensive
> damage if a soda was poured into them.
>
> Why would a child pour out a soda anywhere besides the ground or a sink?
> guesses, which could be wrong, would be out of frustration or spite, outof
> some desperation for input or to take attention away from other people.The
> suggestion that it was because the irritating neighbor was there makessense.
>slamming
> But in families in which I've seen parents do things I consider shocking,
> like putting toys away in a hostile fashion (taking creations apart and
> the parts in a box while going on about how the kids should have putthings
> away themselves) or have been mean to kids or yelled at them until thekids
> weren't listening anymore, or whose kids can say "Mom. Mom. Mom?" sixtimes
> and get no response, I've seen kids do some things to get attention.Sometimes
> physical things to their own bodies.could
>
> If we say "Oh, good mothering!" about every story that comes here, we
> just replace this list with a webpage on which you write your problem,click
> "help" and random messages appear likeand it was
> "Well you know your kids better than anyone! Do what feels right."
> or
> "Your kids are so lucky to have you as their mom!"
>
> When there's a mess made here, whoever made it calls for help, and anyone
> within range grabs rags or a sponge or paper towels and goes to save the
> carpet/table/keyboard or whatever it is.
>
> Marty did make one AMAZING mess when he was two. He poured out half a
> gallon of apple juice. He didn't mean to, but he picked up the pitcher,
> so heavy all he could do was try to hold it as it slowly spilled on theinstant
> floor, and he gave up.
>
> I went to run him a bath, so I could come back and clean it up. The bath
> water was running. I went back and he had opened the cardboard can of
> hot chocolate and spilled THAT, on top of the apple juice, which resiststhat
> powdered milk.I
>
> Heck of a mess. But it was my fault because he was obviously thirsty, and
> had left him and juice too close together. The doorbell rang and it wasa
> friend of mine so she sat in the bathroom with Marty while he was in thebathtub
> and I cleaned the kitchen floor.but
>
> So I'm not trying to say my kids are angels who never did anything wrong,
> the story told seemed to involve an ongoing stress fest, and if extremeis already
> behavior like that is going unnoted and unaddressed, and a social worker
> involved, it IS a problem.in
>
> I don't think all families can unschool. I think unschooling is a luxury
> times of plenty and health. I think the principles of attachmentparenting
> can help in even little ways, under any circumstances, but sometimesthings get
> very disjointed and it takes some concentrated attention on healing to gethttp://www.unschooling.com
> back to a stable starting place.
>
> Sandra
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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>
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>
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>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<< I've never had
incident" wasn't posted. The mom simply stated that he poured it. She
didn't assume that he did it vengefully.
Julie S.
> a toddler eyeball me in the rearview mirror, pull the lid off his drinkand
> pour it out.>>>I haven't either. Unless I'm mistaken, this particular take on the "soda
incident" wasn't posted. The mom simply stated that he poured it. She
didn't assume that he did it vengefully.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Kids "going insane"
>
> In a message dated 1/11/04 9:10:16 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
>
> << But maybe what you're saying is that if mom is
> reacting to a soda overflowing a cup and a soda poured into an
inappropriate
> place with the same reaction like "Let's get this cleaned up," then the
> child isn't being provided with the important information they need to
start
> making judgements about when it's appropriate to do something and when it
> isn't. >>
>
> Yes.
>
> An accident should be handled differently than something deliberately
done.
>
> If my teapot is broken and on the floor, will I be angry?
> Not if it was an accident. If a child picked it up, looked around, and
> dropped it to experiment and see if it would break, I'm going to wonder
why the
> child cares so little about me, my things, my time, possibly being
injured, the
> expense of a new teapot... It's not the one act, it's the greater
situation
> and relationship.
>
> Spilling in the van will happen if kids are allowed drinks in there. I've
> certainly picked toddlers up out of puddles in carseats before. >
> I'm not trying to be holier than thou about this. I'm trying to say that
> there are few acts or responses between parents and children, husbands and
wives,
> any set of people who have an ongoing relationship, which are not
indicative
> of their mutual trust and cooperation (or lack thereof). And every
response
> we make to our children will affect the future of that relationship. If
I
> backhanded Holly for dropping a teapot, I could apologize like crazy for a
year,
> but it wouldn't rewind/erase/record for either of us. Similarly, if I
> treated a deliberate act the same way I would treat an accident, even if I
did it
> carelessly, Holly would notice. And IF I carelessly don't bother to
> discriminate between accidents and deliberate messes, it would be because
I wasn't paying
> enough attention to *Holly.* Not to Holly being in the van and whether
her
> soda was still in her cup, but to whether Holly was comfortable, happy,
still
> wanted her soda or was through with it, or whatever.
>
> <<Digging through vaccuum bags is something that someone who strongly
believes
> in respecting others would choose to do for someone else, rather than
> choosing digging through vaccuum bags as a way to show respect.>>
>
> I just knew how much he loved his Ninja Turtles. He still has ever weapon
> and piece he ever had except for April O'Neil's gun. And I wouldn't be
> surprised if it didn't show up someday, having been under the flap in the
bottom of a
> cardboard box from when we moved.
>
> <<It's the difference between living a principle you believe in and going
> through the motions of what you want kids to learn.>>
>
> What's that quote? (It's quote season, maybe someone will know it.)
>
> "Change your beliefs, and your actions will follow"?? Something like
that.
>
> If people change action instead of changing belief, they'll be awkward at
> what they're doing at best, and eventually will break down in tears or
anger
> because they have no idea what they're doing, and it's not working.
>
> If someone really believes teaching is necessary for learning, but she
just
> leaves her kids alone, watching them from the doorway every few hours, she
will
> end up angry with them for not learning on their own, angry with us for
> giving her bad advice, and angry with herself for not just doing what she
believed
> was right in the first place.
>
> If someone is willing to read more than they thought they should've needed
> to, willing to let people say "WHY do you keep saying 'teach' or 'have
to'?" and
> eventually readjust some of their own internal organization regarding how
> people should/must/can/might be, then when they really believe it can
work, they
> don't need people to tell them what to do. Then they can tell what needs
to
> be done, by being with their child.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Wife2Vegman
--- Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
Australia, coming into homes and backyards in search
of prey, water, etc.
(I learned this from watching Steve Irwin)
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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> Julie lives in a somewhat rural area of Australia,Yes, brown snakes are very poisonous, and abundant, in
> and snakes are not at all
> rare or unusual there. It takes work to keep some of
> them out at the best of
> times. In some places it is also hard to keep
> possums (a different animal
> from American possums) out of the roof, and bats out
> of the eaves.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
Australia, coming into homes and backyards in search
of prey, water, etc.
(I learned this from watching Steve Irwin)
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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J. Stauffer
<<<< Do you think that perhaps also that a child of 3
MamaBeth.....but as a general principle, I think it is a good one.
My SIL is a doormat to her husband. He treats her like a pet, fun to play
with but needs to go sit down and shut up when he doesn't feel like playing.
Her adult children treat her the same way. It drives me insane.
Julie S.
> doesn't understand why the mom lets other people treatI think this is an excellent point. I don't know if it applies to
> her badly but they are supposed to be different?>>>>
MamaBeth.....but as a general principle, I think it is a good one.
My SIL is a doormat to her husband. He treats her like a pet, fun to play
with but needs to go sit down and shut up when he doesn't feel like playing.
Her adult children treat her the same way. It drives me insane.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wife2Vegman" <wifetovegman2002@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Kids "going insane"
>
>>
> That doesn't sound the way I mean it, but I can't
> figure out another way to phrase it.
>
> For instance, I had a friend whose child was
> constantly being disrespectful (I don't mean in just a
> child to adult way, but in a general person to person
> way), and even hitting me and throwing things at me
> when he would get upset at my house.
>
> I wasn't sure how to react since the mom didn't seem
> to care or take control of the situation. I tried
> jollying the child out of his temper, which does not
> work with some children, just makes it worse. Asking
> him to stop just resulted in a torrent of curse words
> at me.
>
> My then 3.5yo started treating me the same way as this
> child did, hitting me and screaming at me when upset
> and not getting his way, and it would be worse after
> that child came over to visit.
>
> (I later found out the same child was also punching my
> little guy and saying things like "I hate you! You're
> an idiot!" when out of earshot of the parents)
>
> I suggested we try going some place neutral like a
> park instead of each other's houses, or having some
> sort of activity/craft for the kids to do with us
> parents rather that just letting them play until they
> were tired of eachother while the moms chatted.
>
> The mom didn't like that idea, though, feeling the
> kids ought to be able to just play freely.
>
> I finally had to ask the mom not bring her child over
> any more. I told the mom that I valued her friendship
> but that Aaron was beginning to treat me the same way
> and I felt some time apart would be better. Aaron was
> just too young to understand why her child was allowed
> to act this way but he wasn't.
>
> The mom wasn't willing to do this, though, so our
> friendship died out. But after a couple months of not
> seeing them, and spending time as a family treating
> each other with respect and gentleness, my little guy
> stopped acting that way too, and would even say, "it
> was bad when {child's name} did that, wasn't it?"
>
> What I mean is, if other people are treating the mom
> badly, and no one is saying, "this is not right, this
> must stop NOW," then the child isn't going to learn
> that either?
>
>
>
> =====
> --Susan in VA
> WifetoVegman
>
> What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for
children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the
schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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>
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>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
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http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<< Make a room safe for him to do outdoorsy kinds of things indoors - play
A friend of mine (former teacher, ps mom even) got rid of her dining room
furniture and set up a large heavy plastic playscape in there. She had big
bins of dress up clothes, arts and crafts stuff. She had real outdoorsy
kinds of kids so it helped her.
Julie S.
> with balls, etc.>>>>*******************************************
A friend of mine (former teacher, ps mom even) got rid of her dining room
furniture and set up a large heavy plastic playscape in there. She had big
bins of dress up clothes, arts and crafts stuff. She had real outdoorsy
kinds of kids so it helped her.
Julie S.
Deborah Lewis
*** I am unwilling to accept the mess of liquids and stains in my car or
anywhere in my house outside of my kitchen or dining room, so we have
rules in place to avoid the problem entirely. This is what works for us,
period. As for other folks who advocate more freedom, to each their own.
I unschool; I don't unparent.***
We live in Montana and we're at least an hour away from good shopping and
sometimes two or three hours or more away from fun stuff. When my son
was first starting to use the potty we took the potty chair with us and
if he had to go, we'd pull over and he'd use the potty. Before that I
changed diapers in the car when I needed to. When he was little, if he'd
fallen asleep while we were driving and we wanted to eat, we'd eat in the
car while he slept. His comfort was our first priority and it didn't
seem nice to withhold a beverage or food or potty stop just in the hope
we'd save some wear and tear on the car. I'll have another car someday,
but I won't ever have that two year old again.
I advocate freedom and I'm an unschooler and a parent. Your statement
seems to be saying anyone who does it differently from you is being
neglectful. I may be guilty of being neglectful of my car upholstery
from time to time, but never my son. <g>
As he got older he would get motion sickness. We'd stop frequently for
him to breathe and reorient but it didn't always stop the motion
sickness. We carried a barfy bag and we cleaned up afterwards.
Later, I was taking my dad for chemo fifty miles away and he could never
make it all the way home before he got sick.
How many of you want to ride in my car now?<g> We clean it, but golly,
it's a car. It'll never be more important than the people who use the
car.
***Frankly, I have a bigger problem with the post asking if a mother has
the right to ask her kids to keep their rooms clean when there are snakes
and rats/mice nesting in their rooms!***
That poster was asking for ideas about encouraging her kids to help, not
asking for permission. She wanted to be respectful of her kids and
create an atmosphere of cooperation. I thought she was cool and I admire
that she knows the solution to potentially venomous snakes in the house
is not a venomous mom. <g>
Deb L in MT where only an occasional garter snake glides through the yard
and is promptly tackled so everyone can get a closer look. <g>
anywhere in my house outside of my kitchen or dining room, so we have
rules in place to avoid the problem entirely. This is what works for us,
period. As for other folks who advocate more freedom, to each their own.
I unschool; I don't unparent.***
We live in Montana and we're at least an hour away from good shopping and
sometimes two or three hours or more away from fun stuff. When my son
was first starting to use the potty we took the potty chair with us and
if he had to go, we'd pull over and he'd use the potty. Before that I
changed diapers in the car when I needed to. When he was little, if he'd
fallen asleep while we were driving and we wanted to eat, we'd eat in the
car while he slept. His comfort was our first priority and it didn't
seem nice to withhold a beverage or food or potty stop just in the hope
we'd save some wear and tear on the car. I'll have another car someday,
but I won't ever have that two year old again.
I advocate freedom and I'm an unschooler and a parent. Your statement
seems to be saying anyone who does it differently from you is being
neglectful. I may be guilty of being neglectful of my car upholstery
from time to time, but never my son. <g>
As he got older he would get motion sickness. We'd stop frequently for
him to breathe and reorient but it didn't always stop the motion
sickness. We carried a barfy bag and we cleaned up afterwards.
Later, I was taking my dad for chemo fifty miles away and he could never
make it all the way home before he got sick.
How many of you want to ride in my car now?<g> We clean it, but golly,
it's a car. It'll never be more important than the people who use the
car.
***Frankly, I have a bigger problem with the post asking if a mother has
the right to ask her kids to keep their rooms clean when there are snakes
and rats/mice nesting in their rooms!***
That poster was asking for ideas about encouraging her kids to help, not
asking for permission. She wanted to be respectful of her kids and
create an atmosphere of cooperation. I thought she was cool and I admire
that she knows the solution to potentially venomous snakes in the house
is not a venomous mom. <g>
Deb L in MT where only an occasional garter snake glides through the yard
and is promptly tackled so everyone can get a closer look. <g>
Tia Leschke
>Last night my daughter found a pile of hair on the floor and realized that
>
>When Marsie was three, she bit a hole in the bottom of her cup of grape
>slushie. We were in the car and she wanted to drink it out of the bottom
>(why I'll never know, but she did) made a huge mess. I talked with her
>about it and she later did it again. The thrill of drinking her own special
>way was more appealing than the prevention of some possible mess.
Kaelin (3) had cut his hair. She had been very respectful about his hair,
only cutting or even brushing it when he agreed. She didn't get mad about
him cutting it. It's his hair, though it's going to be hard to fix it
without cutting it really short. (It was halfway down his back, and he cut
one side to about 2 inches.)
He must have liked the feel of cutting hair because this morning he snuck
up behind my daughter and cut a chunk right off the top of her head. He
must have known that she wouldn't appreciate it or he wouldn't have snuck
up on her. But he also had no idea how upset she would be or how long it's
going to take before her hair looks right again. (She's been growing it out
and was really happy about it.)
His sister never cut anyone else's hair, though she did cut her own (and
her dolls') a few times. But she did cut a few things that she shouldn't
around the same age, when she first figured out that she could.
None of these were deliberate messes or meant to upset anyone. They were
about the thrill of doing something new, and having power, and stuff like that.
Tia