Danielle E. Conger

YUP!

At 10:55 PM 1/1/2004 -0500, tuckervill2@... wrote:
>I think it's quite possible, if the father is available to be attached to the
>child while mom is in class.

[email protected]

danielle.conger@... writes:


> I got my PhD with 3 kids. For a long time I joked that I had more children
> than chapters, but that changed. I actually hand-wrote much of my
> dissertation because I worked in the playroom with my kids. I also worked
> at night and in the wee-wee hours.
>
> I haven't found my education background particularly detrimental to
> unschooling, but I was not an ed. major. I was an English major; I taught
> at Penn State for 6 years before we moved away. Part of my dissertation
> deals with the early stages of what became liberal, public education and
> the beginnings of women's education. This has actually helped me to see
> education as just a bunch of theories laid out by guys like Jean-Jacques
> Rousseau who really didn't have a whole lot to recommend them.
>
> While I don't use my education in homeschooling, I think it did give me a
> certain amount of confidence in myself. I think I'm far more capable than
> anyone else of deciding what's best for my children--hubris that may or may
> not have been there otherwise. I taught lots of education majors, and they
> were, as a group, some of the worst students I had. Unable to write
> coherent thoughts or punctuate and dead set against anything that resembled
> critical inquiry. That's what really made me begin to look into
> homeschooling.
>
>


I got mine pre-family while working fulltime in public school
administration. That was easy, compared to what I imagine a dissertation would demand while
unschooling with children. (Took the kids to see "Cheaper By the Dozen"
yesterday btw <g>.)

After years of family life and happy unschooling, I didn't bother with
the coursework to keep up my certification, and it's just as well.

But imo educators weren't idiots as a group or individually, not then
and not now. Most my colleagues earned my respect, and I had disdain for only
a few, based on who the individual was, not what group or label I assigned
them to. Same with the parents and community leaders we worked with -- respect
for most, disdain for a few. I was further educated and enormously enriched by
many of them.

And I could work with them all, expert or not, even the raging
egomaniacs and the truly idiotic. Even some who couldn't spell and punctuate. <g>

These parallel discussions about degrees and credentials and parents
put me in mind of the old NHEN Legislative list, and a thread called "Experts,
Ruffians and Being Foolish" in Sept 2002.

Message #18,062

. . .a major
> premise of homeschoolers is that you don't need credentialed experts to
> effectively share knowledge or skills. We "just moms/dads" are literally
> walking our talk. Any person or organization that isn't willing to avail
> itself of the expertise of "just moms/dads" is, IMO, foolish.
>


Yes! Any person or organization unwilling to avail itself of input or
expertise of any kind is indeed foolish. Isn't that what learning is all
about?

But I do feel the need to point out that this includes actual
credentialed experts, too, with whom homeschoolers seem to have something of
a love-hate relationship.

We beat the stuffing out of most experts just because they are
experts, but then exalt to expert status uncredentialed experts with whom we
do agree. We then use these self-created experts to beat the stuffing out of
each other! Or we pronounce ourselves certainly not experts but knowledgeable
based on our "experience" -- no doubt the root of the word expert in the
first place -- without ever facing the fact that we do this as a preface to
imparting our "expertise!"

We brag about our own lack of credentials (or downplay the ones we do
have) in the same breath we brag about our children earning those same
credentials! We ask each other for help but then push each other away if the
help seems too "professional." We are deeply suspicious of any expertise that
earns money for the ones offering it. Et cetera.

In fact, having just read this, I'll bet most hsers would now argue
with the statement that began it. It is one of the Great Paradoxes of
Homeschooling. :) JJ






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Just remembered this -- while expecting our first child, I was an
instructional muckety-muck in Florida's department of education, traveling,
analyzing legislation, writing curriculum, supposedly supervising more than 200
staff. As the pregnancy progressed, I was deemed to have gestational diabetes and
preeclampsia (dangerously high blood pressure.) I asked my obstetrician if
he'd recommend I stay home from my very stressful and demanding job until after
delivery.

He considered, and then said the only expectant moms he'd ever
prescribed bedrest for or needed to hospitalize had bigger demands on them than I
did, in other words the ones at home with a toddler or two. But my big important
job -- no problem! Didn't I get to sit down much of the time?

I didn't laugh (or understand) then but I think it's funny now. And so
true. JJ


jrossedd@... writes:


> I got mine pre-family while working fulltime in public school
> administration. That was easy, compared to what I imagine a dissertation
> would demand while
> unschooling with children. (Took the kids to see "Cheaper By the Dozen"
> yesterday btw <g>.)
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

All of which still begs the question: Why would anyone decide to pursue a
masters in education BECAUSE they've decided to homeschool, and why would they
think it was a good idea to pursue that while the child was very young, and why
oh why would any homeschoolers encourage them in that pursuit?

Again, how would pursuing that masters help a young mother in her goal of
homeschooling her very very young child?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2003 12:25:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
DACunefare@... writes:


> All of which still begs the question: Why would anyone decide to pursue a
> masters in education BECAUSE they've decided to homeschool, and why would
> they
> think it was a good idea to pursue that while the child was very young, and
> why
> oh why would any homeschoolers encourage them in that pursuit?
>
> Again, how would pursuing that masters help a young mother in her goal of
> homeschooling her very very young child?
>


But how can any of us "answer" any such questions, except in terms of
ourselves and our own lives? That person isn't even here.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/03 10:38:05 AM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< > Again, how would pursuing that masters help a young mother in her goal
of
> homeschooling her very very young child?
>

<<But how can any of us "answer" any such questions, except in terms of
ourselves and our own lives? That person isn't even here. >>

We don't need that person here to discuss the idea.

Anyone who has studied infant development formally or informally will know
that baby needs NOTHING as much as the constant presence of his mother.

Sandra

Danielle E. Conger

I'd be surprised if anyone here thought having a Master's degree or any
kind of degree in education would HELP in homeschooling, but getting a
degree does not preclude a mother's presence in her child's life. I made
sure that I finished my own course work giving birth, and I took my
comprehensive exams while 7 mos. pregnant. After that, I had my teaching,
tutoring and my dissertation to write.

The only time Emily wasn't with me as an infant was when I was teaching or
tutoring (and college courses meet for only an hour, 3 times a week), and
then she was with her father. I nursed her exclusively, and she didn't take
bottles of even pumped milk. She loved going to the library with me--she
took in absolutely everything! I think she loved all the different colors
on the book spines. Everyone loved seeing her and made a big deal over her.
She even met a couple of Nobel Laureates, who were far more taken with her
than in looking at one more science lab. Carried babies are infinitely mobile!

I did much of my work with my children, while they were playing. They have
wonderful imaginations and often occupy themselves for long periods of
time. I sat in my chair, surrounded by books and papers, while they played
around me. I was there to tie on barbie shoes, skirts and tap shoes,
whatever they needed. When they were done, I was done. I didn't work all
day or every day. I often worked at night. I learned to work with
interruptions, in bits and snatches. I was glad when I was done, but I also
enjoyed what I did and hope to turn my dissertation into a book. My hope is
to turn out a book that is interesting to more than just a handful of
academics.

Unschooling does demand a tremendous amount of time from the primary
parent, but I don't think it precludes that parent from working. What my
kids see is someone reading, researching, writing, pursuing a passion,
asking interesting questions, digging deeper, critically examining,
genuinely questioning. These are really good things for my kids to see. It
would be bad if I did this work from 9 to 5 or allowed it to take
precedence over their needs and time. But that's not how I work.

Hmmmm... maybe there's such a thing as un-working?

--danielle

[email protected]

Sandra wrote:


> <<But how can any of us "answer" any such questions, except in terms of
> ourselves and our own lives? That person isn't even here. >>
>
> We don't need that person here to discuss the idea.
>
> Anyone who has studied infant development formally or informally will know
> that baby needs NOTHING as much as the constant presence of his mother.



Okay. I'm still getting the feel of the place.

I was really enjoying what was explained as a careful emphasis on
telling stories about our own real experiences, for the direct benefit of anyone
who comes here asking as a path to fuller unschooling. I don't see how
generalizing or judging those who are not here and are not asking, and who aren't
unschooling anyway, fit that.

But the explanations are muddying it more instead of clearing it up in
my mind, so l'll hush and just read a while. :) JJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/03 2:37:08 PM, jrossedd@... writes:

<< I was really enjoying what was explained as a careful emphasis on
telling stories about our own real experiences, for the direct benefit of
anyone
who comes here asking as a path to fuller unschooling. >>

I think it was an argument against using hypothetical situations and
hyperbole.

Whether the mother of an unborn/newborn needs to be studying education to
learn how to be a better mother isn't hypothetical. Whether newborns need their
moms isn't hypothetical.

Sandra

liza sabater

On Wednesday, December 31, 2003, at 04:30 PM, jrossedd@... wrote:

> I don't see how
> generalizing or judging those who are not here and are not asking,
> and who aren't
> unschooling anyway, fit that.
>

JJ,

The current posters of the list are not the only members of the list.
There may be newbies out there lurking, thinking, maybe a degree will
help me with this.

The discussion was not around the woman. Nobody knows who she is. We do
know about her decision. It could have been anybody's decision. It is
right on topic for it is the kind of thing that is brought to not only
homeschoolers but unschoolers over and over again. That you cannot do
things until you go to school and are taught how to do them.
Unschooling is not a teaching technique, it is not a homeschooling
technique. It is a way of life for the whole family. You're all in it
or you're not. I think it was very appropriate to comment on that
choice.

/ l i z a, nyc
============================
http://culturekitchen.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2003 3:24:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Anyone who has studied infant development formally or informally will know
that baby needs NOTHING as much as the constant presence of his mother.

Sandra



Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF. Sometimes that
happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the need to absorb and be a
person. Sometimes they can do both, be a good mother AND go to college. Is the
degree worthless because she might never actually teach in a classroom?
Probably not to the mother.

I have a degree in nursing. I don't work, haven't in several years. I went
to college when I had two children. Sometimes on short days one or both went
with me and sat quietly coloring. If they needed me, I was there for them, it
wasn't a choice. BUT I did get an education, for ME and to be able to
support my children IF something were to occur in my marriage, death, divorce,
whatever.

Some people might find it a waste. I worked very HARD to get done as quickly
as possible. Sometimes taking up to 23 credit hours, very early classes and
late night classes and studying ONLY after the children were in bed.

I'm very glad I didn't have to study as much as I see my kids doing, that
would have been hard for me.

Remembering that I got married at 17, had my first child at 19, so it was a
little different than for a lot of people.

I'm glad I have an education. I'm glad that I have knowledge that is often
useful and if I HAD to go to work and earn money I could. For most of my
children's lives I have been lucky enough to be home with them. Some parents don't
have that luxury, I'm grateful for it.

glena


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/03 3:58:00 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:

<<
Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF. Sometimes that
happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the need to absorb and be a
person. >>

What that mother will learn if she goes to school to study what she could use
to be a good unschooler (or homeschooler, whichever was the original scenario
quoted from whichever other list) is that babies need very much to be with
their mothers.

But by the time she learns that, going to school while her infant is
elsewhere, it will be too late.

<<Sometimes they can do both, be a good mother AND go to college. Is the
degree worthless because she might never actually teach in a classroom? >>

If her priority is her own college education, great! It's doable. But it's
not a good path to unschooling.

Someone can go to college with a baby. Someone can be a dedicated attachment
parenting mom. But it's nigh on impossible to do both. One takes precedent.

People have all kinds of priorities. Some people highly value their sex
life, or their drinking, or their clothes (just read an article in that Utne
Reader about someone who's written a book on having a more ecologically-justifiable
wardrobe, but she bought a tube top that cost over $100--weirdly out of my
experience altogether), or their cars or their jewelry or music or quilting or
wildlife rescue or vegetarian cooking or fundraising or religion or political
activism.

Some people's priority is their kids, and becoming unschoolers.
Those are the only people we can really help here.

Other priorities might inhibit or interfere with unschooling. Some won't.
Going to college to get a master's in education in order to stay home with
one's children is an inhibiting interference.

There is nothing they teach in education classes that isn't available in
those textbooks and journals. One could probably learn more reading what's online
than buying textbooks and having people dole out information to them two or
three times a week while they sit in desks.

Those who wonder whether I just wrote is true must be having a HELL of a hard
time unschooling.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF. Sometimes that
>happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the need to absorb and be a
>person. Sometimes they can do both, be a good mother AND go to
>college. Is the
>degree worthless because she might never actually teach in a classroom?
>Probably not to the mother.

On an unschooling list we're talking about someone needing college to learn
things for herself? I haven't stopped learning since I "rose up" out of
high school when I was 16. That included some time in college, but I was
still unschooling, learning what I wanted when I wanted. I don't intend to
*ever* stop learning.

The woman in question seemed to think that she was getting the Masters
degree *because* she was going to homeschool. I *do* know a woman who did
that, but it was long ago before homeschooling was well known. She got her
teaching certificate so nobody would be able to stop her from homeschooling
the kids she hadn't had but knew weren't going to school.


>I'm glad I have an education. I'm glad that I have knowledge that is often
>useful and if I HAD to go to work and earn money I could. For most of my
>children's lives I have been lucky enough to be home with them. Some
>parents don't
>have that luxury, I'm grateful for it.

I'm glad I have an education too. And the last institution I graduated from
was junior high. <g>
Tia

Robyn Coburn

<<Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF. Sometimes that
happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the need to absorb and be
a
person. Sometimes they can do both, be a good mother AND go to college. Is
the
degree worthless because she might never actually teach in a classroom?
Probably not to the mother.>>

I just searched my folder to find the original post - but it is lost
somewhere in the quagmire so I can't quote. However the memory I have of the
post is, simplistically paraphrased: "I want to homeschool my child *so* I
went out and got a degree in Education". She wants to keep to the theme of
hs'ing for her final dissertation. Maybe my recollection is faulty.

I do remember feeling a strong need for education in my mid twenties. I felt
I needed more skills if I wanted to advance as a set/costume designer. So I
went to Technical College specifically for that. First I studied some
Architectural Drafting (in the olden days before CAD)at one place; then I
did some Fashion Illustration and also Pattern Drafting at two others - just
enough for practical purposes. Finally after working for a while, both in
and out of the theater, I returned to University and actually attained a
degree in Theatre Design, discovering both Lighting Design (which I truly
adore) and Film. The feeling of going to college for my own genuine purposes
and really loving it, was so immensely different from going when I first
finished High School, and enrolling in an unfinished Bachelor of Science,
because I felt so pressured by everyone as top of the class to "do something
with my brain", when all I really wanted was Show Business. (I should add
everyone except my mother, ironically, who much preferred that I go into the
"family business"- musical theater.) Now I am very excited to be writing
feature film scripts.

Could I have done all this with a baby? Not with the full immersion in
either baby caring that I did when Jayn was born, or in the degree studies
and extracurricular stuff. Film work is usually at least 12hour days also.
Some things are more compatible with having children than others, some
education options are more compatible with attachment parenting (including
part time studies or internet college); some careers are more compatible
with unschooling than others - for me that is working from home as a script
writer instead of a production designer.

All I know is we rarely (actually only ever one occasion a few months ago)
leave Jayn with other people, so she is with either me or James 24 hours per
day. We like it this way. If I wanted to further my formal education, or
enhance my degree qualifications (don't have a reason to right now) it would
mean a lot of work from James. I would be looking for alternate self study
methods. I wish my career had been so fabulous that I missed working. Most
of the movies were pretty crummy, and not wonderful working experiences
either. The high point: I met my husband on the first movie I worked on when
I arrived in Los Angeles.

Robyn L. Coburn






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<<so she is with either me or James 24 hours per
> day.>>>>

<<<<The high point: I met my husband on the first movie I worked on when
> I arrived in Los Angeles.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn>>>>>
*****************************************

So you are married to James Coburn? <grin> Hey, life could be worse.

Julie S.---who loved Mr. Coburn in that Disney dogsledding movie with Cuba
Gooding Jr.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Degrees and Credentials and
"Experts"


> <<Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF. Sometimes
that
> happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the need to absorb and
be
> a
> person. Sometimes they can do both, be a good mother AND go to college.
Is
> the
> degree worthless because she might never actually teach in a classroom?
> Probably not to the mother.>>
>
> I just searched my folder to find the original post - but it is lost
> somewhere in the quagmire so I can't quote. However the memory I have of
the
> post is, simplistically paraphrased: "I want to homeschool my child *so* I
> went out and got a degree in Education". She wants to keep to the theme of
> hs'ing for her final dissertation. Maybe my recollection is faulty.
>
> I do remember feeling a strong need for education in my mid twenties. I
felt
> I needed more skills if I wanted to advance as a set/costume designer. So
I
> went to Technical College specifically for that. First I studied some
> Architectural Drafting (in the olden days before CAD)at one place; then I
> did some Fashion Illustration and also Pattern Drafting at two others -
just
> enough for practical purposes. Finally after working for a while, both in
> and out of the theater, I returned to University and actually attained a
> degree in Theatre Design, discovering both Lighting Design (which I truly
> adore) and Film. The feeling of going to college for my own genuine
purposes
> and really loving it, was so immensely different from going when I first
> finished High School, and enrolling in an unfinished Bachelor of Science,
> because I felt so pressured by everyone as top of the class to "do
something
> with my brain", when all I really wanted was Show Business. (I should add
> everyone except my mother, ironically, who much preferred that I go into
the
> "family business"- musical theater.) Now I am very excited to be writing
> feature film scripts.
>
> Could I have done all this with a baby? Not with the full immersion in
> either baby caring that I did when Jayn was born, or in the degree studies
> and extracurricular stuff. Film work is usually at least 12hour days also.
> Some things are more compatible with having children than others, some
> education options are more compatible with attachment parenting (including
> part time studies or internet college); some careers are more compatible
> with unschooling than others - for me that is working from home as a
script
> writer instead of a production designer.
>
> All I know is we rarely (actually only ever one occasion a few months ago)
> leave Jayn with other people, We like it this way. If I wanted to further
my formal education, or
> enhance my degree qualifications (don't have a reason to right now) it
would
> mean a lot of work from James. I would be looking for alternate self study
> methods. I wish my career had been so fabulous that I missed working. Most
> of the movies were pretty crummy, and not wonderful working experiences
> either. >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Danielle E. Conger

At 03:47 PM 12/31/2003 -0800, Tia Leschke wrote:
>On an unschooling list we're talking about someone needing college to learn
>things for herself? I haven't stopped learning since I "rose up" out of
>high school when I was 16. That included some time in college, but I was
>still unschooling, learning what I wanted when I wanted.

The sad thing is that in a formal educational framework, graduate school is
when you finally get to do all this, which is probably why I went as far as
I did. In grad school, you get to choose your classes in the subject *you*
like and the area *you* like. When I got to my dissertation, I defined the
parameters of what was interesting to study. I chose the topic, proposed
it, researched it, wrote it. No one told me what to do. My director said,
"read a lot; you'll find something that interests you."

Unschooling, to me, is grad school without the gate keepers or the hoops.
What could be better than that? Read a lot, find your passion, pursue it as
far as you'd like. I love to read, so that's pretty much pure heaven to me.
;) Others could replace it with "Do a lot, find your passion, pursue it as
far as you'd like."

--danielle

Tia Leschke

>
>The sad thing is that in a formal educational framework, graduate school is
>when you finally get to do all this, which is probably why I went as far as
>I did. In grad school, you get to choose your classes in the subject *you*
>like and the area *you* like. When I got to my dissertation, I defined the
>parameters of what was interesting to study. I chose the topic, proposed
>it, researched it, wrote it. No one told me what to do. My director said,
>"read a lot; you'll find something that interests you."

I did much the same at a community college. I took whatever classes
interested me, dropped the ones I ended up not liking. Then again, I wasn't
at all interested in a degree at that point. In fact, when I did settle on
a major and started working towards a degree, the unschooling aspect went
out of it and I quit. I had been learning way more when I was doing it my way.
Tia

Robyn Coburn

My late father-in-law.

Robyn L. Coburn




<<So you are married to James Coburn? <grin> Hey, life could be worse.

Julie S.---who loved Mr. Coburn in that Disney dogsledding movie with Cuba
Gooding Jr.>>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<< My late father-in-law.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn>>>>>
******************************************
Sorry for my being flip. I didn't know he had passed.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:37 PM
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Degrees and Credentials and
"Experts"


>>
>
>
>
> <<So you are married to James Coburn? <grin> Hey, life could be worse.
>
> Julie S.---who loved Mr. Coburn in that Disney dogsledding movie with Cuba
> Gooding Jr.>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Kelly Lenhart

<<<< My late father-in-law.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn>>>>>

Really? Very cool. I always enjoyed his work. My favorite was Charade,
with Audrey Hepburn and Cary Grant. And of course the Flint movies.
Despite playing many 'bad guys' he always seemed so charming in interviews
and the like.

I went to take a quick look at his Internet Movie Database entry and had
forgotten how many roles of his I knew. They just don't make them like that
anymore. Harrison Ford is the closest we have these days.

I'm sorry for your family's loss.

Kelly

zenmomma2kids

>>Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF.
Sometimes that happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the
need to absorb and be a person.>>

This sounds so outside the realm of unschoolish thinking to me. I'm
trying to help raise a generation of humans that understands they
don't NEED to go to a school to become educated and informed. I learn
all the time, every day, and haven't set foot in a classroom in over
20 years. And I have always felt like a full and complete person.

>>I'm glad I have an education too. And the last institution I
graduated from was junior high. <g> >>

You and my husband both, Tia. :o) And he is by far the most educated
man I know. I'm thinking you've given yourself quite an education too.

Life is good.
~Mary

Kelly Lenhart

>This sounds so outside the realm of unschoolish thinking to me. I'm
>trying to help raise a generation of humans that understands they
>don't NEED to go to a school to become educated and informed.

I think it depends on what interests you and what you want to learn. You
may chose to go to a "formal" program because of the green card effect.
When it's over you are employable. You may chose a formal program because
of the people teaching--they may be inspiring or interesting.

There are many reasons to persue formal, academic education. For me the
unschooling aspect is making an informed decision to take that route rather
than others because of what you really get, rather than because you think
another ways isn't "enough."

Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2003 5:08:13 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Someone can go to college with a baby. Someone can be a dedicated attachment
parenting mom. But it's nigh on impossible to do both. One takes precedent.

~~~

I think it's quite possible, if the father is available to be attached to the
child while mom is in class.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/2004 4:35:26 PM Central Standard Time,
zenmomma@... writes:
>>Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF.
Sometimes that happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the
need to absorb and be a person.>>

This sounds so outside the realm of unschoolish thinking to me. I'm
trying to help raise a generation of humans that understands they
don't NEED to go to a school to become educated and informed. I learn
all the time, every day, and haven't set foot in a classroom in over
20 years. And I have always felt like a full and complete person.

~~~

This is such a dilemma for me. I have thought it would be interesting to try
going to college, since I never did. Each time I have tried I have been
majorly turned off by the "rules". Just going through the admission process was
daunting and frustrating, and this was before I was an unschooler! One time I
applied for a job at the University of Memphis. It required fast typing,
which I do well, for doing word processing on a computer. But they made me take
the typing test on an ancient Selectric. I don't have to explain this idiocy
to this group, do I? Anyway, that's the kind of frustration I had with the
admissions process the couple of times I attempted.

I am much more savvy about college now, having helped my son get his
scholarships, etc., but I wonder if it would even be worth my time. The unschooling
life is so ingrained, it would probably be torture.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Life is good. And a great teacher. And sometimes we can learn something in a
more structured setting -- and choose to learn that way. Must we all learn
only one way for it to be unschoolish? To me the important unschooling step is
the choosing. Closing off options doesn't seem unschoolish to me -- it seems
dogmatic. More of both as desired -- that's what I hope my kids understand. Life
as a banquet!

Nance



In a message dated 1/1/2004 7:46:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 22:33:35 -0000
From: "zenmomma2kids" <zenmomma@...>
Subject: Re: Degrees and Credentials and "Experts"

>>Maybe the mother felt the need for education for HERSELF.
Sometimes that happens. Mothers still want to learn, still feel the
need to absorb and be a person.>>

This sounds so outside the realm of unschoolish thinking to me. I'm
trying to help raise a generation of humans that understands they
don't NEED to go to a school to become educated and informed. I learn
all the time, every day, and haven't set foot in a classroom in over
20 years. And I have always felt like a full and complete person.

>>I'm glad I have an education too. And the last institution I
graduated from was junior high. <g> >>

You and my husband both, Tia. :o) And he is by far the most educated
man I know. I'm thinking you've given yourself quite an education too.

Life is good.
~Mary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

catherine aceto

----- Original Message -----
From: tuckervill2@...

This is such a dilemma for me. I have thought it would be interesting to try
going to college, since I never did. ... but I wonder if it would even be worth my time. The unschooling life is so ingrained, it would probably be torture.

Tuck




I certainly don't think anyone needs to go to college and definitely not in order to unschool. But if you wanted to go, you'd probably like classes at a small, liberal arts college better than a university. I attended a miniscule women's college (around 100 or so in my graduating class) and most of my classes (other than a few freshmen lecture classes) were conversations with knowledgeable people about interesting things -- but I majored and minored in things that I was fascinated by (psychology, English, mathematics). I think a smaller place, or the honors college of a larger place, would less "rule-bound" than a university. I went to college caring too much about grades and so had less of a good time than I should have -- but by-and-large it was fun.

The most fun I have ever had in academics was my last year of lawschool. I already had a job for after graduation with the firm I had interned with the previous summer, so for the first time in my life I felt that grades were completely irrelevant. I had a blast. It made me think of how much better all my education would have been, had I had that attitude from the beginning.

The thing I liked best about college and lawschool, though -- a ready source of people willing to talk endlessly about things I was interested in -- you can now get right at home on the internet! I don't have to take a class to find people to discuss the ins-and-outs of the characters of Angela Thirkell -- there is a list right on yahoo.

-Cat



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/2/2004 9:14:16 AM Central Standard Time,
aceto3@... writes:
I certainly don't think anyone needs to go to college and definitely not in
order to unschool. But if you wanted to go, you'd probably like classes at a
small, liberal arts college better than a university. I attended a miniscule
women's college (around 100 or so in my graduating class) and most of my
classes (other than a few freshmen lecture classes) were conversations with
knowledgeable people about interesting things -- but I majored and minored in things
that I was fascinated by (psychology, English, mathematics). I think a
smaller place, or the honors college of a larger place, would less "rule-bound"
than a university. I went to college caring too much about grades and so had
less of a good time than I should have -- but by-and-large it was fun.

~~~

That would be lovely, but I'm about to move to NW Arkansas. I'm not sure
such a thing would exist there. There are private colleges, but most of them are
Christian and I'm not. I've thought about if I could do that when my last
child is grown (10 years to go), maybe relocate temporarily to where I wanted to
go to school. But I am sure I will be doing so many other things it would be
hard to break away. There are some schools, like the one advertised in HEM,
which only require you to be there 3 weeks per semester, and the rest is done
on your own. But I'm not sure they would take someone like me, and I'm not
sure that would provide the "learning community" that you and others have told
me about. I'd have to hunt it up in my location for sure.

Right now I can only formulate the plan and think about it. Executing it
will come much later. But if I talk about it now I will have more information
for when I can execute it. That will be much later. Maybe after all that time,
I won't even feel the need for a degree!

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

melissa4123

--- In [email protected], rubyprincesstsg@a...
wrote:
In a message dated 12/31/2003 3:24:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

<<For most of my children's lives I have been lucky enough to be
home with them. Some parents don't have that luxury, I'm grateful
for it.

glena>>

I'm a litle late getting in on this discussion. I just now went
back and read all the talk on degrees and unschooling. I find the
discussion very interesting however, I did read this sentence and
was compelled to put my .02 in about how "lucky" some of us are to
be able to stay home with their kids.

Luck has nothing to do with my being able to stay home with my
daughter. My husband and I planned from the time we talked about
getting married and having a family right away that one of us would
stay home with her (preferably me but, there have been times when it
was him). Then, we sat down and talked about what we needed to do
to make that happen(ie, what bills do we need to pay off so that we
can lower out debts and live on one income). Next, we both worked
two jobs so that we could pay off our credit cards and our cars and
then put some money in savings as a small cushion "just in case."

Living on one income has nothing to do with luck, it has to do with
planning (in our case, a lot of it) and being willing to put your
kids before all the wonderful new "stuff" you might like to have. I
know lots of people (mostly friends of friends) who always say how
lucky I am to be able to stay home and how much they would enjoy
being able to do that. The next thing I know they go out and buy a
much bigger much more expensive home and two brand new cars! No
wonder she can't stay home.....she would rather have the new SUV (I
LOVE my SUV but, it's certainly not new) and the big house.

Of course (since I have such a hard time keeping my mouth shut) I
pointed out the contradiction in what she was saying and what she
was doing. When I told her that, if she and her husband would quit
going out to dinner (and breakfast and lunch) everyday, stayed in
the smaller house, and hadn't bought two brand new cars, she would
be able to stay home with her son, she wasn't too happy with me
but....oh well.

I am just so sick of having people tell me how lucky I am to stay
home and then go out and spend thousands on "things" that they don't
need. All the while complaining about how they both have to work!
Grrrrr

Melissa

PS. I do realize that there are some couples where both have to work
outside the home. However, I also think that, in most cases (and I
know there are always exceptions to the rule), if they had planned a
bit better, both would not have to work outside the home.

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/02/2004 10:58:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
melissa4123@... writes:


> PS. I do realize that there are some couples where both have to work
> outside the home. However, I also think that, in most cases (and I
> know there are always exceptions to the rule), if they had planned a
> bit better, both would not have to work outside the home.
>

There's a new book out by two learned women (who strike me as real
experts, formally educated *and* worthy of being listened to) called The
Two-Income Trap. I can't put my hands on my copy right now, but the main idea is that
most what's wrong with our education and economic systems results form this
mistaken belief that individuals just don't plan well enough or work hard
enough. JJ




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/2/04 7:49:05 AM, marbleface@... writes:

<< Must we all learn
only one way for it to be unschoolish? >>

"One way"??

That seems to be dividing life into "the school-style way" and "the
not-school-style way."

<<To me the important unschooling step is
the choosing. Closing off options doesn't seem unschoolish to me -- it seems
dogmatic. >>

Are you defending classroom teaching being as legitimate a natural learning
tool as learning outside a classroom?

I'm not clear if you're thinking about adults or children either.

<<More of both as desired -- that's what I hope my kids understand. Life
as a banquet! >>

I've never been to a banquet where people told you what to eat in what order,
stretched it out over 18 weeks, and tested you at the end.

Sandra