religious questioning
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 9:22:02 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:
<< > I SO want to do everything right for them
house (lots) and have talked to them about religion without snorting or rolling
my eyes. When Holly has wanted to go to church I've taken her. She's more
interested than the boys are, and I remember when I was her age being voracious
about all religious information, not just my own church. I wanted to know what
the Methodists were doing differently, why they had advent and we didn't, and
why my cousins were hopping and shouting to guitar music at the Holiness
church they went to and I had visited.
Of the people I know who were forced to go to church, many won't lightly set
foot in one today. My husband is one of those.
What changed my perspective was that I changed my perspective. I looked at
the world with a little more distance. Inside a church, with the King James
Bible in my hand, looking out, the world looked scary and sinful. Stepping far
away from that church and looking at what Hindus and Buddhists believe and
practice, then looking toward the Baptist church, it seemed very small, and new,
and misguided. Looking at what Jewish children are taught, and the methods
used by rabbis who specialize in teaching children made me envious of the narrow
"just take it on faith" business that passed for education when I was little.
"Sword drills" (formal races to find and read Bible verses) and memorizing
John 3:16 and Matthew 28:19-20. They justify supporting missionaries, and
witnessing to our friends and neighbors and relatives, but they don't tell how to
live beyond that. They say "Do this hard thing, but it won't save you. Only
faith and grace will save you."
If you express faith in people or human nature (as I believe are necessary
components of fluid unschooling), they will say "Humanist" with a nasty tone of
voice.
"Humanist" isn't a bad word in the real world. It's just a bad word among
fundamentalist Christians who are so deeply ashamed of being human.
A somewhat tacky and humorous summary of what I think about hell now that I'm
older is here:
http://sandradodd.com/theology
Most of it first appeared on this list, years ago.
I don't believe the Bible is literally true, though at one time I did.
Reading more about the history of the Bible and then reading other religions'
sacred texts cured me of the idea that the Bible was something really unique and
special. It's a collection of things of varying relative values, and not a
monolithic item created in a moment by a clear-eyed entity.
Anyone new to questioning that could look at The Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Sandra
<< > I SO want to do everything right for them
> and what if through my questioning and doubting I make a wrong choice >>My kids know some people believe in heaven and hell. I have Bibles in my
house (lots) and have talked to them about religion without snorting or rolling
my eyes. When Holly has wanted to go to church I've taken her. She's more
interested than the boys are, and I remember when I was her age being voracious
about all religious information, not just my own church. I wanted to know what
the Methodists were doing differently, why they had advent and we didn't, and
why my cousins were hopping and shouting to guitar music at the Holiness
church they went to and I had visited.
Of the people I know who were forced to go to church, many won't lightly set
foot in one today. My husband is one of those.
What changed my perspective was that I changed my perspective. I looked at
the world with a little more distance. Inside a church, with the King James
Bible in my hand, looking out, the world looked scary and sinful. Stepping far
away from that church and looking at what Hindus and Buddhists believe and
practice, then looking toward the Baptist church, it seemed very small, and new,
and misguided. Looking at what Jewish children are taught, and the methods
used by rabbis who specialize in teaching children made me envious of the narrow
"just take it on faith" business that passed for education when I was little.
"Sword drills" (formal races to find and read Bible verses) and memorizing
John 3:16 and Matthew 28:19-20. They justify supporting missionaries, and
witnessing to our friends and neighbors and relatives, but they don't tell how to
live beyond that. They say "Do this hard thing, but it won't save you. Only
faith and grace will save you."
If you express faith in people or human nature (as I believe are necessary
components of fluid unschooling), they will say "Humanist" with a nasty tone of
voice.
"Humanist" isn't a bad word in the real world. It's just a bad word among
fundamentalist Christians who are so deeply ashamed of being human.
A somewhat tacky and humorous summary of what I think about hell now that I'm
older is here:
http://sandradodd.com/theology
Most of it first appeared on this list, years ago.
I don't believe the Bible is literally true, though at one time I did.
Reading more about the history of the Bible and then reading other religions'
sacred texts cured me of the idea that the Bible was something really unique and
special. It's a collection of things of varying relative values, and not a
monolithic item created in a moment by a clear-eyed entity.
Anyone new to questioning that could look at The Skeptic's Annotated Bible.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>When I went through my Christian period, I started out looking for a
>
>What changed my perspective was that I changed my perspective. I looked at
>the world with a little more distance. Inside a church, with the King James
>Bible in my hand, looking out, the world looked scary and
>sinful. Stepping far
>away from that church and looking at what Hindus and Buddhists believe and
>practice, then looking toward the Baptist church, it seemed very small,
>and new,
>and misguided. Looking at what Jewish children are taught, and the methods
>used by rabbis who specialize in teaching children made me envious of the
>narrow
>"just take it on faith" business that passed for education when I was little.
miracle to save my marriage. (didn't happen, thank goodness) Once I got in
deep, it became fear-based. What got me out of it was moving far away from
the people who were influencing me and not finding a new group right away.
My dh at the time was reading Autobiography of a Yogi. I wouldn't have even
looked at it before moving, but something took the fear away enough for me
to start reading it. Yogananda claimed to have performed the same types of
miracles that Jesus did. Interesting. I started thinking about how both
stories seemed just as impossible and impossible to prove. At that point, I
felt like the fog had lifted and I could think for myself again.
(I'm definitely not saying that all Christians are surrounded by fog or
anything, but I know that some are because I was.)
Tia
Stepheny Cappel
Some thoughts I have had on religion lately don't really cause me to question whether there is a God or not just that Religion in itself is manmade. When man puts his 2 or 3 cents in things get all messed up. I have actually stopped going to church because it always seems to be about a new building or whatever. I talk about my faith only when I am asked..... and don't want to force it on anyone.
My ds 18 has moved in with a 26 year old woman that is still married. She has 4 kids and they have been removed from both parents care by DCF. I have no judgement here. I was really worried about his decision to move in with her, he has provided her with a place to live and is taking care of her. In my opinion she is not a very mature 26 year old, and to me age really doesn't matter. Lots of thoughts have been going through my head. He was raised in the church, I taught him the bible, etc.. yet this is his choice. He asked me if I thought he was wrong and I asked him how he felt about it. She is coming out of an abusive relationship so I want to help her too.
My Mom wants to rant and rave about this, because he is into adultery. I told her to say what she wanted but not when I was around. Then we talked more and I told her, "you are not preparing them for a damn thing. This is life. " She wanted to give all kinds of books to them on the christian life. I said maybe a bible because lots of people have them in their house. The rest is up to God because I believe he calls people to belief without our help kwim?
I guess what I'm saying is I'm questioning alot of things too. And this is not bad in and of itself, I believe it will make me stronger. I want to know exactly what is my beliefs not someone elses. I want my kids to know what theirs is too.
Stepheny
<< > I SO want to do everything right for them
My ds 18 has moved in with a 26 year old woman that is still married. She has 4 kids and they have been removed from both parents care by DCF. I have no judgement here. I was really worried about his decision to move in with her, he has provided her with a place to live and is taking care of her. In my opinion she is not a very mature 26 year old, and to me age really doesn't matter. Lots of thoughts have been going through my head. He was raised in the church, I taught him the bible, etc.. yet this is his choice. He asked me if I thought he was wrong and I asked him how he felt about it. She is coming out of an abusive relationship so I want to help her too.
My Mom wants to rant and rave about this, because he is into adultery. I told her to say what she wanted but not when I was around. Then we talked more and I told her, "you are not preparing them for a damn thing. This is life. " She wanted to give all kinds of books to them on the christian life. I said maybe a bible because lots of people have them in their house. The rest is up to God because I believe he calls people to belief without our help kwim?
I guess what I'm saying is I'm questioning alot of things too. And this is not bad in and of itself, I believe it will make me stronger. I want to know exactly what is my beliefs not someone elses. I want my kids to know what theirs is too.
Stepheny
<< > I SO want to do everything right for them
> and what if through my questioning and doubting I make a wrong choice >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2003 12:29:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
stephc62@... writes:
no judgement here. I was really worried about his decision to move in with
her, he has provided her with a place to live and is taking care of her.<<
*******************************************************
I know it's his decision, and there's probably nothing you can do about it
but live with it and try to support him. But after reading the above, the LAST
thing I would worry about would be whether he's lost his Christian faith, or
if they're living in sin, etc. Although there are a few unfair cases out
there, the majority of DCF cases do not get their children taken away unless there
is serious neglect and/or abuse, or mental problems severe enough to affect
the child (unmonitored schizophrenia, for example). What if this woman gets
pregnant with your son's child? Often, if someone has had their children
removed, DCF will take future children away also, if their case is strong enough. Do
you or your son know what the grounds were for the children being removed?
Have they been removed permanently, or are they coming back? Having a live in
boyfriend will hinder them being returned to her, if that's the case.
I am not saying I agree with any of this. But I have 4 children in my home
who were taken permanently out of 3 homes, and it is not because the mom was in
an abusive relationship. It was because their mothers were abusive and/or
neglectful, in a huge number of ways. I hope your son can learn from someone
besides her what happened in her case. I'm not sure if it's public knowledge or
not. Good luck to you and your son.
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephc62@... writes:
>>My ds 18 has moved in with a 26 year old woman that is still married. Shehas 4 kids and they have been removed from both parents care by DCF. I have
no judgement here. I was really worried about his decision to move in with
her, he has provided her with a place to live and is taking care of her.<<
*******************************************************
I know it's his decision, and there's probably nothing you can do about it
but live with it and try to support him. But after reading the above, the LAST
thing I would worry about would be whether he's lost his Christian faith, or
if they're living in sin, etc. Although there are a few unfair cases out
there, the majority of DCF cases do not get their children taken away unless there
is serious neglect and/or abuse, or mental problems severe enough to affect
the child (unmonitored schizophrenia, for example). What if this woman gets
pregnant with your son's child? Often, if someone has had their children
removed, DCF will take future children away also, if their case is strong enough. Do
you or your son know what the grounds were for the children being removed?
Have they been removed permanently, or are they coming back? Having a live in
boyfriend will hinder them being returned to her, if that's the case.
I am not saying I agree with any of this. But I have 4 children in my home
who were taken permanently out of 3 homes, and it is not because the mom was in
an abusive relationship. It was because their mothers were abusive and/or
neglectful, in a huge number of ways. I hope your son can learn from someone
besides her what happened in her case. I'm not sure if it's public knowledge or
not. Good luck to you and your son.
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny Cappel
They were removed for numerous reasons. The list is
hazardous conditions
mental instability of the father
domestic violence
failure to protect
inadequate supervision
The mom was on bedrest due to an accident in her fifth month of pregnancy. If a 6 or 7 year old child was asked what their mom does all day when they were home they would say she sleeps all day. This caused them to be late for school. Big concern in Fl is attendence.
Thats the inadequate supervision. Hazardous conditions could have been the condition of the house they were living in. The mother was in the process of leaving for the umth time according to her, the baby is now 6 months old. She had the baby but the father would not let her have the other children. She didn't run right down to the court house and get a restraining order and ask the judge to return the children to her, so that is failure to protect.
The father had apparently said he would kill himself and did hold a knife to his side trying to scare her into coming back to him, in front of the children while driving the car. More hazardous conditions.
In florida they will take the children or at least monitor the situation for domestic violence and failure to protect. This is all I know. I feel like I know too much. So she is in the new house with my son and has beds for the children, and a friend of mine and myself are trying to help her have a more suitable environment for her children.
She is supposedly pregnant already. I feel like he is in such a mess. I told him today that if something happened that she maybe lost the baby that it would be a good idea to use all the protection that was available. He said he knew that.
I am not worried that he maybe moved away from his faith or the living in sin. Thats the least of my worries right now. What I see is a valiant young man trying to do what he thinks is right and just.
This is not permanent yet. They are with the mothers father.
Stepheny
*******************************************************
I know it's his decision, and there's probably nothing you can do about it
but live with it and try to support him. But after reading the above, the LAST
thing I would worry about would be whether he's lost his Christian faith, or
if they're living in sin, etc. Although there are a few unfair cases out
there, the majority of DCF cases do not get their children taken away unless there
is serious neglect and/or abuse, or mental problems severe enough to affect
the child (unmonitored schizophrenia, for example). What if this woman gets
pregnant with your son's child? Often, if someone has had their children
removed, DCF will take future children away also, if their case is strong enough. Do
you or your son know what the grounds were for the children being removed?
Have they been removed permanently, or are they coming back? Having a live in
boyfriend will hinder them being returned to her, if that's the case.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hazardous conditions
mental instability of the father
domestic violence
failure to protect
inadequate supervision
The mom was on bedrest due to an accident in her fifth month of pregnancy. If a 6 or 7 year old child was asked what their mom does all day when they were home they would say she sleeps all day. This caused them to be late for school. Big concern in Fl is attendence.
Thats the inadequate supervision. Hazardous conditions could have been the condition of the house they were living in. The mother was in the process of leaving for the umth time according to her, the baby is now 6 months old. She had the baby but the father would not let her have the other children. She didn't run right down to the court house and get a restraining order and ask the judge to return the children to her, so that is failure to protect.
The father had apparently said he would kill himself and did hold a knife to his side trying to scare her into coming back to him, in front of the children while driving the car. More hazardous conditions.
In florida they will take the children or at least monitor the situation for domestic violence and failure to protect. This is all I know. I feel like I know too much. So she is in the new house with my son and has beds for the children, and a friend of mine and myself are trying to help her have a more suitable environment for her children.
She is supposedly pregnant already. I feel like he is in such a mess. I told him today that if something happened that she maybe lost the baby that it would be a good idea to use all the protection that was available. He said he knew that.
I am not worried that he maybe moved away from his faith or the living in sin. Thats the least of my worries right now. What I see is a valiant young man trying to do what he thinks is right and just.
This is not permanent yet. They are with the mothers father.
Stepheny
*******************************************************
I know it's his decision, and there's probably nothing you can do about it
but live with it and try to support him. But after reading the above, the LAST
thing I would worry about would be whether he's lost his Christian faith, or
if they're living in sin, etc. Although there are a few unfair cases out
there, the majority of DCF cases do not get their children taken away unless there
is serious neglect and/or abuse, or mental problems severe enough to affect
the child (unmonitored schizophrenia, for example). What if this woman gets
pregnant with your son's child? Often, if someone has had their children
removed, DCF will take future children away also, if their case is strong enough. Do
you or your son know what the grounds were for the children being removed?
Have they been removed permanently, or are they coming back? Having a live in
boyfriend will hinder them being returned to her, if that's the case.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2003 7:20:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
stephc62@... writes:
would be a good idea to use all the protection that was available. He said
he knew that.
I am not worried that he maybe moved away from his faith or the living in
sin. Thats the least of my worries right now. What I see is a valiant young man
trying to do what he thinks is right and just. <<
****************************************************
No doubt. That's how it appears to me too, bless him for that. And I was
married at 19 with a baby on the way, and I'm still married after 20+ years. I
am not one who believes everyone married young is doomed to failure,
especially with a lot of extended family support (AND accountability).
I don't know what the laws are in Florida, and how it works with returning
children to a home with a live-in boyfriend. He may have to go through a
background check, be fingerprinted, drug tested, show he's got employment,
stability, etc. They may think it's OK, they may tell her the children can't come back
with a new boyfriend living there. As noble and wonderful as your son
sounds, through a social worker's eyes he's a potential abuser or molester, it's
something they see happen every day.
But whatever you do, if he's living there, don't tell them he's not, because
if they find out, the kids will be taken again, no questions asked. Always be
honest and genuine. Unfortunately, your son's love is in a corner, and they
have her and her children's futures in their hands. If the social worker says
jump, your son and his girlfriend need to ask "How High?" So unfair, and
hard to do, but it's the only way. If it gets ridiculous, seek a lawyer.
******************************************************
*******************************************************
Thank God they're with family....there are some really crappy foster homes
out there. That in itself makes the situation look better. It sounds like she's
got a cluster of friends/family rallying around her to pick her up. I hope
for the best!
BTW Stephany, my oldest daughter (20 years) lives with a guy 18 years older
than her, a widower with 3 young daughters. He's Hispanic and working here
(legally) and his children live with his family in Mexico. They're in the
process of getting him citizenship, then they'll both apply for dual citizenship so
they can live in both places and raise the kids. I sometimes sigh deeply and
worry but she seems so sure of herself, they seem incredibly happy together,
he worships the ground she walks on and treats her like a queen, so I bite my
lip and pray and hope for the best.
Good luck to you and your son!! xoxo
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephc62@... writes:
>>She is supposedly pregnant already. I feel like he is in such a mess. Itold him today that if something happened that she maybe lost the baby that it
would be a good idea to use all the protection that was available. He said
he knew that.
I am not worried that he maybe moved away from his faith or the living in
sin. Thats the least of my worries right now. What I see is a valiant young man
trying to do what he thinks is right and just. <<
****************************************************
No doubt. That's how it appears to me too, bless him for that. And I was
married at 19 with a baby on the way, and I'm still married after 20+ years. I
am not one who believes everyone married young is doomed to failure,
especially with a lot of extended family support (AND accountability).
I don't know what the laws are in Florida, and how it works with returning
children to a home with a live-in boyfriend. He may have to go through a
background check, be fingerprinted, drug tested, show he's got employment,
stability, etc. They may think it's OK, they may tell her the children can't come back
with a new boyfriend living there. As noble and wonderful as your son
sounds, through a social worker's eyes he's a potential abuser or molester, it's
something they see happen every day.
But whatever you do, if he's living there, don't tell them he's not, because
if they find out, the kids will be taken again, no questions asked. Always be
honest and genuine. Unfortunately, your son's love is in a corner, and they
have her and her children's futures in their hands. If the social worker says
jump, your son and his girlfriend need to ask "How High?" So unfair, and
hard to do, but it's the only way. If it gets ridiculous, seek a lawyer.
******************************************************
>>This is not permanent yet. They are with the mothers father.Stepheny<<
*******************************************************
Thank God they're with family....there are some really crappy foster homes
out there. That in itself makes the situation look better. It sounds like she's
got a cluster of friends/family rallying around her to pick her up. I hope
for the best!
BTW Stephany, my oldest daughter (20 years) lives with a guy 18 years older
than her, a widower with 3 young daughters. He's Hispanic and working here
(legally) and his children live with his family in Mexico. They're in the
process of getting him citizenship, then they'll both apply for dual citizenship so
they can live in both places and raise the kids. I sometimes sigh deeply and
worry but she seems so sure of herself, they seem incredibly happy together,
he worships the ground she walks on and treats her like a queen, so I bite my
lip and pray and hope for the best.
Good luck to you and your son!! xoxo
Nancy B. in WV
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny Cappel
----- Original Message-- Thank God they're with family....there are some really crappy foster homes
out there. That in itself makes the situation look better. It sounds like she's
got a cluster of friends/family rallying around her to pick her up. I hope
for the best!
Nancy,
Actually they are with her father which she knows he will take care of them but they seem to be siding with her husband. She knows to tell the truth, Neal already did a drug test right in the driveway for the worker. (well he took the cup in the house). That cleared that up right then. Yes everyone that would keep the children now would have to be fingerprinted, background check, etc...
It gets tiring but I am hoping for the best.
It's funny but with our children I guess we do get unrealistic. My past was anything but perfect, and the age thing doesn't bother me. My dh is 8 years younger than me and I had four children when he met me. Quite a guy. My good friend said that he is emulating (SP?) my dh right now, as he was raised by Frank since he was four. My sister is also married to a man 20 years older. Thanks for the information, I'm glad you shared. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
out there. That in itself makes the situation look better. It sounds like she's
got a cluster of friends/family rallying around her to pick her up. I hope
for the best!
Nancy,
Actually they are with her father which she knows he will take care of them but they seem to be siding with her husband. She knows to tell the truth, Neal already did a drug test right in the driveway for the worker. (well he took the cup in the house). That cleared that up right then. Yes everyone that would keep the children now would have to be fingerprinted, background check, etc...
It gets tiring but I am hoping for the best.
It's funny but with our children I guess we do get unrealistic. My past was anything but perfect, and the age thing doesn't bother me. My dh is 8 years younger than me and I had four children when he met me. Quite a guy. My good friend said that he is emulating (SP?) my dh right now, as he was raised by Frank since he was four. My sister is also married to a man 20 years older. Thanks for the information, I'm glad you shared. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2003 12:06:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
<<I
am not one who believes everyone married young is doomed to failure,
especially with a lot of extended family support (AND accountability).>>
I agree. My parents married at sixteen and have been married for 37 years.
Although they have had their ups and downs, they have a wonderful, strong
marriage. I certainly wouldn't encourage my children to marry young, but if that
was their choice, I would support them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
CelticFrau@... writes:
<<I
am not one who believes everyone married young is doomed to failure,
especially with a lot of extended family support (AND accountability).>>
I agree. My parents married at sixteen and have been married for 37 years.
Although they have had their ups and downs, they have a wonderful, strong
marriage. I certainly wouldn't encourage my children to marry young, but if that
was their choice, I would support them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Roberts
I married at 18. Paul and I will be celebrating our 10 year anniversary in April. We've had our share of problems, but we're 100% committed to our marriage and aren't giving up over dumb stuff like so many people seem to do. We know a couple that actually decided they had to divorce because they couldn't agree about the toilet seat being up or down!!
MamaBeth
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MamaBeth
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]