Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Extreme behavior
[email protected]
><< Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior butMy kids are 22b, 19b, 16b, 13g, 10b and 6g. The oldest is living with his
>had sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be
>"tolerated". >>
>
>How old are your children?
>Do you have a teenaged boy?
>
>When one of them has sex will you lie about it or accept it?
>How will it look in practical terms when you do not "tolerate" it?
>
>I'm willing to discuss it further if you answer those questions for me.
>
>Sandra
girlfriend and has probably had sex, yes, but not when he was a minor
living at home. The rest have not. Of course we won't lie about it... if
that's the lifestyle they chose to lead - premarital sex, then they'll just
have to accept the consequences.... We do talk about it all the time and
they know how we feel about it. And thus far they agree (except for the
oldest, but once he hit 21 and moved out it was his business and we don't
have a problem with that at his age.) They all agree that sex before
marriage, even once, is high risk behavior and they are not willing or
desirous of taking that risk. They also agree with us that it is morally
wrong.
If they decided to go ahead and have sex, they would lose their driving
privileges and not be allowed to go to college until they were old enough
to act mature enough to be trusted. (they are all homeschooled but start
college at age 16 if they want to - through MN's PSEO program - free two
years of college!)
Janet in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> Of course we won't lie about it... ifthey'll just
> that's the lifestyle they chose to lead - premarital sex, then
> have to accept the consequences....What are the consequences? The *possiblity* of negative
consequences (unwanted pregnancy, disease, etc) can be minimized,
particularly if the young person has the kind of relationship with
his parents where he is unafraid to be honest about his feelings and
intentions and therefore more likely to consider their advice.
> We do talk about it all the time andfor the
> they know how we feel about it. And thus far they agree (except
> oldest, but once he hit 21 and moved out it was his business andwe don't
> have a problem with that at his age.)Do you think he suddenly changed his mind about premarital sex when
he "hit 21" or do you think it's possible that when he "hit 21" he
could finally be himself without the possiblity of having other
freedoms (driving, college) taken away from him?
> They all agree that sex beforewilling or
> marriage, even once, is high risk behavior and they are not
> desirous of taking that risk. They also agree with us that it ismorally
> wrong.I know people who say those same things about *their* teens who have
no idea that those teens have in fact had sex already.
A close friend of mine as a teen struggled with having an abortion
with no parental support. In her heart she would have preferred to
have and keep the baby, but she was just too terrified to tell her
parents that she wasn't a virgin.
I could go on and on with examples like this.
I don't think "my way or the highway" is a good approach to take
with something as serious as sexuality.
And even though you're insisting that your kids agree with you, in
the same post you're saying that if they go against that "agreement"
they will be punished until they are "mature enough to be trusted"
with living according to their parent's morals.
Patti
J. Stauffer
<<< If they decided to go ahead and have sex, they would lose their driving
neon bulb goes off over their heads. I was sexually active for years prior
to marriage and my parents didn't know it. In fact, I was sexually active
for a good while before I was old enough to drive....living in a small town
it wasn't much of a hinderance <grin>
So how long have you been unschooling?
Julie S.
> privileges and not be allowed to go to college until they were old enoughHow do you figure you will know if they are having sex? It's not like a
> to act mature enough to be trusted>>>
neon bulb goes off over their heads. I was sexually active for years prior
to marriage and my parents didn't know it. In fact, I was sexually active
for a good while before I was old enough to drive....living in a small town
it wasn't much of a hinderance <grin>
So how long have you been unschooling?
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <tpjg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Extreme behavior
>
> ><< Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior
but
> >had sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be
> >"tolerated". >>
> >
> >How old are your children?
> >Do you have a teenaged boy?
> >
> >When one of them has sex will you lie about it or accept it?
> >How will it look in practical terms when you do not "tolerate" it?
> >
> >I'm willing to discuss it further if you answer those questions for me.
> >
> >Sandra
>
> My kids are 22b, 19b, 16b, 13g, 10b and 6g. The oldest is living with his
> girlfriend and has probably had sex, yes, but not when he was a minor
> living at home. The rest have not. Of course we won't lie about it... if
> that's the lifestyle they chose to lead - premarital sex, then they'll
just
> have to accept the consequences.... We do talk about it all the time and
> they know how we feel about it. And thus far they agree (except for the
> oldest, but once he hit 21 and moved out it was his business and we don't
> have a problem with that at his age.) They all agree that sex before
> marriage, even once, is high risk behavior and they are not willing or
> desirous of taking that risk. They also agree with us that it is morally
> wrong.
>
>. (they are all homeschooled but start
> college at age 16 if they want to - through MN's PSEO program - free two
> years of college!)
>
> Janet in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>
Janet Gerla
> What are the consequences? The *possiblity* of negativeand intentions and therefore more likely to consider their advice.
> consequences (unwanted pregnancy, disease, etc) can be minimized,
> particularly if the young person has the kind of relationship with
> his parents where he is unafraid to be honest about his feelings
They know about the 'natural' consequences, from seeing friends get
pregnant, from others with health problems, from reading about
consequences... I can assure you they are free to talk with either
dh and I and they know it.
> Do you think he suddenly changed his mind about premarital sexwhen
> he "hit 21" or do you think it's possible that when he "hit 21" heI really think he changed his mind when he hit 20 and this girl
> could finally be himself without the possiblity of having other
> freedoms (driving, college) taken away from him?
latched onto him and never let go. She never gave him the option,
LOL, of dating anyone else.... she is nice, but rather controlling
and they have been together since. For a long time they were in a
platonic relationship, but they told us when that changed. He had no
clue how we would react if he had premarital sex when he was living
at home because he never asked and we never even thought about it!
He never even dated till he met this gal. He was 20 when they met
and wham bam they are now together, and that's fine. He's 22 for
crying out loud and can do what he wants. At 17?? No. I don't think
most 17 yos are mature enough (and to be totally honest, I don't
think this 22 year old is very mature either, but still, he's "old
enough" and will mature in time.) But he was always honest with us,
and we with him.
> I know people who say those same things about *their* teens whohave no idea that those teens have in fact had sex already.
> A close friend of mine as a teen struggled with having an abortionYeah, yeah, and I know that. I could eaily have had sex as a teen
> with no parental support. In her heart she would have preferred to
> have and keep the baby, but she was just too terrified to tell her
> parents that she wasn't a virgin.
and my mom would never have known. A close friend of mine had three
clandestine abortions when we were 17-19. But we ARE honest with our
children, and forthright about this topic. And they are honest with
us. So far. I realize that they could sneak around, but the one who
is CA (he's 19) I can guarantee has never had sex and doesn't want
to till he's married, and the 16yo at home has truly never had the
chance. All his overnights (scout camp, activities at church) have
been well chaperoned. He could get away if he wanted, we don't tie
him in the room. He is free to go wherever he wants, really, but has
no desire to have sex with anyone. We are not dogmatic about our
beliefs, but we do teach them what we believe and express to them
that while they are under our roof they need to abide by our rules.
(Which are very few in number!) And they all have - so far. I'm well
aware that could change with 4 more reaching those years... but I'm
not worried about it. We totally disagree with so many in our
culture that sex is merely an animal instinct that 'needs' to be
satisfied. That's not how it worked out for either of us, and we
don't expect it to be so for our children.
> I could go on and on with examples like this.that "agreement"
> I don't think "my way or the highway" is a good approach to take
> with something as serious as sexuality.
> And even though you're insisting that your kids agree with you, in
> the same post you're saying that if they go against
> they will be punished until they are "mature enough to be trusted"Yep. This is true, we do expect them to live according to our morals
> with living according to their parent's morals.
>
> Patti
as long as they are in our home. Even the "now rebellious" one, the
22 year old, has always respected that.
Janet in MN
Janet Gerla
> So how long have you been unschooling?17 years.
>
> Julie S.
Janet in MN
Mary
From: <tpjg@...>
<<The rest have not.>>
I'm just wondering how you really know? Because if it were me, and I knew
someone would take away my driving privileges and not allow me to go to
college, I would make darn well sure they would never find out. Even if it
was just once. And I would also wonder what was so taboo about sex that
would cause anyone to take away something so dear to me? Like driving and
college. And why sex was okay if I wasn't living with at home? But I guess
it's still not okay, just that there is no control over me. I would want out
of the house earlier rather than feel like it was a secure place for me.
That and just being really good and covering my ass. (so to speak)
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<The rest have not.>>
I'm just wondering how you really know? Because if it were me, and I knew
someone would take away my driving privileges and not allow me to go to
college, I would make darn well sure they would never find out. Even if it
was just once. And I would also wonder what was so taboo about sex that
would cause anyone to take away something so dear to me? Like driving and
college. And why sex was okay if I wasn't living with at home? But I guess
it's still not okay, just that there is no control over me. I would want out
of the house earlier rather than feel like it was a secure place for me.
That and just being really good and covering my ass. (so to speak)
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/03 6:25:02 PM, tpjg@... writes:
<< if that's the lifestyle they chose to lead - premarital sex >>
I don't see it as "a lifestyle," but from your point of view it might be.
<<They also agree with us that it is morally wrong.>>
You can just declare video games morally wrong too, then, and there won't be
any question for you about them or from your kids, maybe.
<< We do talk about it all the time and they know how we feel about it.>>
We don't talk about it all the time.
We talk about it very occasionally, when it seems appropriate for some reason.
The kids ask questions about what they see, read, hear and we discuss it.
One of their friends (now a high school senior) has been living with his
girlfriend for nearly a year (at first with her family). We've discussed the
limitations, the historical comparisons, the social and financial ramifications, etc.
<<If they decided to go ahead and have sex, they would lose their driving
privileges and not be allowed to go to college until they were old enough
to act mature enough to be trusted. >>
But if they have sex and just don't tell you, they can still drive and go to
college?
That's been going on all around us all for years, hasn't it?
If it's working for you that's great, but the question of whether video games
or pierced noses (or whatever all led here) lead to dangerous behaviors, I
don't believe it's true.
Sandra
<< if that's the lifestyle they chose to lead - premarital sex >>
I don't see it as "a lifestyle," but from your point of view it might be.
<<They also agree with us that it is morally wrong.>>
You can just declare video games morally wrong too, then, and there won't be
any question for you about them or from your kids, maybe.
<< We do talk about it all the time and they know how we feel about it.>>
We don't talk about it all the time.
We talk about it very occasionally, when it seems appropriate for some reason.
The kids ask questions about what they see, read, hear and we discuss it.
One of their friends (now a high school senior) has been living with his
girlfriend for nearly a year (at first with her family). We've discussed the
limitations, the historical comparisons, the social and financial ramifications, etc.
<<If they decided to go ahead and have sex, they would lose their driving
privileges and not be allowed to go to college until they were old enough
to act mature enough to be trusted. >>
But if they have sex and just don't tell you, they can still drive and go to
college?
That's been going on all around us all for years, hasn't it?
If it's working for you that's great, but the question of whether video games
or pierced noses (or whatever all led here) lead to dangerous behaviors, I
don't believe it's true.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/03 11:52:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, tpjg@...
writes:
but I still am open to the possibility that my children (when they are older
teens) may want to have sex. I think sex can be an amazing gift from God. I
think it can take a while to get to the gift part, but sometimes people want
to open it too early. That's okay -- it can still become a gift, though there
might be some heartache on the way. As long as they're mature enough and
supported enough to stay safe (using protection, etc.), they can survive the
heartache, learn from it, use it to mature to the point where they can actually
receive the gift.
I'm lucky in that I have a pastor that agrees with me. <g>
Peace,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> We totally disagree with so many in ourInteresting -- I disagree with an "animal instinct" portrayal of sex as well,
> culture that sex is merely an animal instinct that 'needs' to be
> satisfied.
but I still am open to the possibility that my children (when they are older
teens) may want to have sex. I think sex can be an amazing gift from God. I
think it can take a while to get to the gift part, but sometimes people want
to open it too early. That's okay -- it can still become a gift, though there
might be some heartache on the way. As long as they're mature enough and
supported enough to stay safe (using protection, etc.), they can survive the
heartache, learn from it, use it to mature to the point where they can actually
receive the gift.
I'm lucky in that I have a pastor that agrees with me. <g>
Peace,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Maybe this slippery slope or domino fear is the part I'm not getting.
I've never heard that video games, nose piercing etc would "lead to"
dangerous behaviors.
For me, there's enough to worry about in every behavior itself! <g>
JJ
SandraDodd@... writes:
I've never heard that video games, nose piercing etc would "lead to"
dangerous behaviors.
For me, there's enough to worry about in every behavior itself! <g>
JJ
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If it's working for you that's great, but the question of whether video[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> games
> or pierced noses (or whatever all led here) lead to dangerous behaviors, I
> don't believe it's true.
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2003 10:51:38 PM Central Standard Time, tpjg@...
writes:
You really have no way of knowing that, truly.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I can guarantee has never had sex and doesn't want~~~
> to till he's married, and the 16yo at home has truly never had the
> chance. All his overnights (scout camp, activities at church) have
> been well chaperoned. He could get away if he wanted, we don't tie
> him in the room. He is free to go wherever he wants, really, but has
> no desire to have sex with anyone.
You really have no way of knowing that, truly.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> They know about the 'natural' consequences, from seeing friendsget
> pregnant, from others with health problems, from reading aboutDo they also know that most often those consquences can be prevented
> consequences... I can assure you they are free to talk with either
> dh and I and they know it.
even if the person *does* choose to have sex?
I think that pointing to such examples and saying "see they
shouldn't have had sex" is dishonest. The teenaged friends of mine
who had such problems didn't have them because they had the audacity
(or lack of "morals") to experiment with sex, they had them because
they lacked a trusted advisor who could give them important support
and information.
And I just can't believe that teenagers with parents who think that
premarital sex is absolutely immoral (and that having premarital sex
indicates a lack of maturity that will result in punishment handed
down by those parents) feel as "free" to talk about it as you think
they do. Free to talk about it so long as they agree and obey,
mabye, but that's not truly free. Perhaps I just have very clear
memories of being a teenager, but I can assure you that the issues
my parents took such strong stands on were *not* the issues I felt
comfortable bringing up in an honest way.
> I realize that they could sneak around, but the one whohas
> is CA (he's 19) I can guarantee has never had sex and doesn't want
> to till he's married, and the 16yo at home has truly never had the
> chance. All his overnights (scout camp, activities at church) have
> been well chaperoned. He could get away if he wanted, we don't tie
> him in the room. He is free to go wherever he wants, really, but
> no desire to have sex with anyone.How can you "guaruntee" that an adult in another state has never had
sex? And I can't help but add that I know many people who had their
first sexual experience at "chaperoned" church overnights. In the
case of someone very close to me it was actually in the back of the
bus in the middle of broad daylight under a blanket on the way to a
church funded ski trip.
I'm not talking about your son specifically here, just assuring you
and anyone else that it's absolutely possible (and more likely than
parents want to admit) for sexual experiences to happen at
chaperoned events. My husband and I have very fond memories (we've
been together since high school) of our clandestine encounters as
teenagers- and my mother believed at the time that I was chaperoned
and supervised every second. Nope. :-)
> We are not dogmatic about ourWhat is your definition of dogmatic then?
> beliefs, but we do teach them what we believe and express to them
> that while they are under our roof they need to abide by our rules.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 7:47:34 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< I can guarantee has never had sex and doesn't want
I know Marty hasn't. He declared loudly one day (I was two rooms away) that
when he gets laid EVERYone is going to know it. (That was a year and a half
or so ago. I teased him about how it might be his first and last time if he
doesn't reconsider his plan for announcement. <g>)
If Marty felt strongly at this moment he wanted to wait for marriage, that
could change in just a few minutes given the right circumstances.
I wouldn't want to make any guarantees on my kids' futures.
Sandra
<< I can guarantee has never had sex and doesn't want
> to till he's married >><<You really have no way of knowing that, truly.>>
I know Marty hasn't. He declared loudly one day (I was two rooms away) that
when he gets laid EVERYone is going to know it. (That was a year and a half
or so ago. I teased him about how it might be his first and last time if he
doesn't reconsider his plan for announcement. <g>)
If Marty felt strongly at this moment he wanted to wait for marriage, that
could change in just a few minutes given the right circumstances.
I wouldn't want to make any guarantees on my kids' futures.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2003 10:15:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
I can assure you they are free to talk with either
"Our kids can come to us about ANYTHING at ANY time". Do you know how many times
they said to my face, "You can talk to us about ANYTHING?"
Uh, anything IF you want to risk the wrath of their full selves. My parents
would have been and WERE the last people I would ever speak to about anything
regarding sex, love, lust, drugs, drinking, smoking, ANYTHING. I KNEW were
they stood and I KNEW what would happen if they EVER suspected I even THOUGHT
about such stuff.
It always makes me suspect of parents who say "my children KNOW they can talk
to us about anything" or I KNOW they would NEVER think about such and such.
Most likely they would never THINK about getting CAUGHT.
I realize there are other cases when this might be true. But it sends up BIG
red flags in my brain. I never said "my kids can come talk to me about
ANYTHING", but surprisingly enough, they always have. I never pushed but they
always came forward with whatever they wanted to discuss and believe me I've
sometimes sat having conversations looking very calm on the outside but inside
thinking very loudly to myself I can NOT believe I am hearing this, stay calm,
stay calm and LISTEN. Them talking to me about whatever isn't something I
expected, required or even thought of but a natural act when there is not fear of
repercussions and judgment, something I never had.
In the absence of feeling judged by ones parents I believe it frees the child
to truly ask, listen and seek out the parents point of view and advice on
subjects others might find difficult.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
I can assure you they are free to talk with either
> dh and I and they know it.Do you know how many times I heard that growing up from both my parents?
"Our kids can come to us about ANYTHING at ANY time". Do you know how many times
they said to my face, "You can talk to us about ANYTHING?"
Uh, anything IF you want to risk the wrath of their full selves. My parents
would have been and WERE the last people I would ever speak to about anything
regarding sex, love, lust, drugs, drinking, smoking, ANYTHING. I KNEW were
they stood and I KNEW what would happen if they EVER suspected I even THOUGHT
about such stuff.
It always makes me suspect of parents who say "my children KNOW they can talk
to us about anything" or I KNOW they would NEVER think about such and such.
Most likely they would never THINK about getting CAUGHT.
I realize there are other cases when this might be true. But it sends up BIG
red flags in my brain. I never said "my kids can come talk to me about
ANYTHING", but surprisingly enough, they always have. I never pushed but they
always came forward with whatever they wanted to discuss and believe me I've
sometimes sat having conversations looking very calm on the outside but inside
thinking very loudly to myself I can NOT believe I am hearing this, stay calm,
stay calm and LISTEN. Them talking to me about whatever isn't something I
expected, required or even thought of but a natural act when there is not fear of
repercussions and judgment, something I never had.
In the absence of feeling judged by ones parents I believe it frees the child
to truly ask, listen and seek out the parents point of view and advice on
subjects others might find difficult.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janet Gerla
> How can you "guaruntee" that an adult in another state has neverhad
> sex? And I can't help but add that I know many people who hadtheir
> first sexual experience at "chaperoned" church overnights. In theI know the 19yo in CA isn't having sex because of what he is doing
> case of someone very close to me it was actually in the back of the
> bus in the middle of broad daylight under a blanket on the way to a
> church funded ski trip.
> I'm not talking about your son specifically here, just assuring you
> and anyone else that it's absolutely possible (and more likely than
> parents want to admit) for sexual experiences to happen at
> chaperoned events. My husband and I have very fond memories (we've
> been together since high school) of our clandestine encounters as
> teenagers- and my mother believed at the time that I was chaperoned
> and supervised every second. Nope. :-)
out there. He is with another fellow 24/7 and they have a job to do
and that's what they are doing. If they don't follow the "rules" they
get sent home. They CHOOSE to do this with open eyes, so I'm not at
all worried that he is out there doing anything other than what he is
supposed to be. And I'm 100% sure sex isn't involved.
I went on a coed youth trip with my church youth this summer and I
can assure you athough we traveled 1800 miles by bus, camped and
stayed at hotels there was no sex. I know you think that's impossible
to claim, but with our chaperones and the way we set things up it's
impossible. And the kids have to agree to certain behavior before
they go. If they don't agree, they don't have to go! Those who feel
that they want more "freedoms" don't come along, and that's fine.
It's not something that is new to them and not something most of them
have any problem with.
We do feel that sex is a fabulous gift from God and that it is
designed for the marriage relationship. I felt that way as a teen and
didn't mind my parents (mom's mostly) "strict" rules. As a matter of
fact, I'm deeply greatful to her for keeping me from experimenting
around that way. She wasn't heavy handed, didn't keep tight reigns on
me and she talked freely about sex when the subject arose, but I knew
how she felt and respected that. And that's what I try to do with my
children. Not a one of them knows that I would react with removal of
privilidges if they started fooling around, so that's not going to
cause them to hide what they are doing. But they aren't doing it and
we'll cross that bridge if it appears in front of us. Not only do we
feel strongly about this (and all I'm talking about is that I view
teen sex as extreme behavior - I don't mind if you don't - we all
have our own views after all) the kids in my home have these concepts
reinforced at our church - and they are certainly free to disagree
with the views, and when they are old enough to choose they can do
what they want. The oldest has chosen to disregard our views and
lives with his "fiancee". The next son down has embraced our beliefs
and is out there doing something else. We love them both. But I would
not allow my children to knowingly put themselves in danger by having
sex early without serious consequences. It would be the same if they
were chasing each other around with knives or guns. I would step in
and put a stop to it. But I understand that there are those who don't
view sex in teens as "extreme". All I'm saying is that I do.
Janet in MN
averyschmidt
> In a message dated 12/9/2003 10:15:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,parents?
> patti.schmidt2@v... writes:
> I can assure you they are free to talk with either
> > dh and I and they know it.
> Do you know how many times I heard that growing up from both my
> "Our kids can come to us about ANYTHING at ANY time". Do you knowhow many times
> they said to my face, "You can talk to us about ANYTHING?"I don't know what happened there, but patti.schmidt didn't write
that. :-/
Patti
Wife2Vegman
--- rubyprincesstsg@... wrote:
times in my recent posts. He has said to his parents
recently, "why didn't you ever TELL me" in regards to
the consequences of his risky behavior.
They never felt the need to inform him about drugs or
STDs or any of the other consequences of risky and
self-destructive behavior (unprotected casual sex,
drug abuse/use, cigarette smoking, etc.) because they
always assumed that if they brought him up according
to their beliefs and kept disciplining him, and didn't
let him listen to bad music or watch bad tv or movies,
or have friends who were not Christians, he would
never do those things.
Perhaps waiting until a child comes to us isn't the
best way to help them in some instances. Supplying
them with the information they need to know
beforehand, as the opportunity arises and taking into
account the child's situation as well, might be a
better course.
Would that be in keeping with unschooling? To supply
information that the child might not have thought to
ask about, but we as adults might know they will need
to succeed (or be safe)? If a child starts being
interested in the opposite sex or mentions that they
like the taste of beer, or whatever...not in a
"lesson/lecture" kind of way, but in a conversational
"have you considered" kind of way?
(I'm not talking about math facts or spelling, more
like social information, but that might apply too, if
the child was frustrated about something and we say,
"here is something you might not have considered.")
I know this boy would have been spared a lot of pain
and illness and heartache if his parents hadn't said,
"Thou Shalt NOT" and instead said, "because you might,
you need to know what the consequences might be", and
instead of saying, "don't because it is a sin" also
been more practical and concrete in the reasons given.
=====
--Susan in Sterling, VA
"In our every deliberation we must consider the impact
of our decisions on the next seven generations" -- The
Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
> Do you know how many times I heard that growing upI've mentioned a certain 17yo friend, I know, several
> from both my parents?
> "Our kids can come to us about ANYTHING at ANY
> time". Do you know how many times
> they said to my face, "You can talk to us about
> ANYTHING?"
times in my recent posts. He has said to his parents
recently, "why didn't you ever TELL me" in regards to
the consequences of his risky behavior.
They never felt the need to inform him about drugs or
STDs or any of the other consequences of risky and
self-destructive behavior (unprotected casual sex,
drug abuse/use, cigarette smoking, etc.) because they
always assumed that if they brought him up according
to their beliefs and kept disciplining him, and didn't
let him listen to bad music or watch bad tv or movies,
or have friends who were not Christians, he would
never do those things.
Perhaps waiting until a child comes to us isn't the
best way to help them in some instances. Supplying
them with the information they need to know
beforehand, as the opportunity arises and taking into
account the child's situation as well, might be a
better course.
Would that be in keeping with unschooling? To supply
information that the child might not have thought to
ask about, but we as adults might know they will need
to succeed (or be safe)? If a child starts being
interested in the opposite sex or mentions that they
like the taste of beer, or whatever...not in a
"lesson/lecture" kind of way, but in a conversational
"have you considered" kind of way?
(I'm not talking about math facts or spelling, more
like social information, but that might apply too, if
the child was frustrated about something and we say,
"here is something you might not have considered.")
I know this boy would have been spared a lot of pain
and illness and heartache if his parents hadn't said,
"Thou Shalt NOT" and instead said, "because you might,
you need to know what the consequences might be", and
instead of saying, "don't because it is a sin" also
been more practical and concrete in the reasons given.
=====
--Susan in Sterling, VA
"In our every deliberation we must consider the impact
of our decisions on the next seven generations" -- The
Great Law of the Iroquois Confederacy
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2003 12:18:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, tpjg@...
writes:
But I would
not allow my children to knowingly put themselves in danger by having
sex early without serious consequences. It would be the same if they
were chasing each other around with knives or guns. I would step in
and put a stop to it. But I understand that there are those who don't
view sex in teens as "extreme". All I'm saying is that I do.
Janet in MN>>>
******************************************************************
What danger? Will they die if they have sex? You have children so we all know
it happened. Making sex look like a dirty secret may just offer you some
very confused children later in life.
This topic can fall into some gray areas depending on the ages.
Did you ban toy guns, tv, certain movies etc. I would like to think its just
this topic but something is telling me its not. Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
But I would
not allow my children to knowingly put themselves in danger by having
sex early without serious consequences. It would be the same if they
were chasing each other around with knives or guns. I would step in
and put a stop to it. But I understand that there are those who don't
view sex in teens as "extreme". All I'm saying is that I do.
Janet in MN>>>
******************************************************************
What danger? Will they die if they have sex? You have children so we all know
it happened. Making sex look like a dirty secret may just offer you some
very confused children later in life.
This topic can fall into some gray areas depending on the ages.
Did you ban toy guns, tv, certain movies etc. I would like to think its just
this topic but something is telling me its not. Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2003 12:30:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wifetovegman2002@... writes:
"because you might,
you need to know what the consequences might be", and
instead of saying, "don't because it is a sin" also
been more practical and concrete in the reasons given.
I think because there are very few absolute NO's in my house my children are
more free to discuss things with me.
Probably those who feel that way have issues that you suggested come up well
before the child is ready to experiment for themselves.
In my own personal experience we discussed EVERYTHING in the world around us
long before it even pertained to the children, just observations about life.
Movies and TV bring up LOTS of opportunities for discussing real life things.
When something personally pertains to them (i.e., drugs, alcohol, sex) we've
probably already discussed it in many contexts and it's not some out there
abstract unknown whatif type situation.
In the very top of my linen closet is a shoe box. Inside said shoe box are
condoms, all varieties, all kinds and even sizes (Internet site that you buy
them buy the dozens for good prices). I have not looked inside that box in the
six years since I put it there. I have taken the lid off and thrown more
inside. Sometimes finding it too full to add.
I also know that other teens who are 19, 20 and sometimes even older visit
the linen closet before heading back to college.
My children do NOT regal me with tales of the sexual escapades but I do know
who they've had sex with and who they've made love with and it's not because
I've asked, they've felt like sharing.
Sometimes they will come and say they've made a mistake by taking a
relationship to that level, I think it shows maturity to be able to say that.
My oldest boy was sick for a week once at age 16, didn't want to see his
girlfriend. I thought it must be a sickness of the heart. Finally he confided to
me that he had "done the deed" and was just sick about it and worried what I
would think about it. (in regard to it being that particular girl) We talked
for a long time, he felt better, much better. He's 22 now, he's still with the
same girl, they live together not far from here, I'm pretty sure he's having
sex outside of marriage. I've talked to him about why NOT marry the girl.
Makes sense to me if you've been with someone since before your 15th birthday
and you are now 22 and you've lived together since you were 18 that marriage
might be on the horizon or at least an engagement. But apparently not. I don't
love him any less, there are no repercussions, it's just life.
Same with my older girl. I could have said if you have sex before marriage I
am not sending you to college, but WHY would you? So they either don't or
say they haven't had sex, go off to college where there is no way in the world
that you can keep those same ground rules for your child and it just opens up
the avenue to a deceitful relationship.
That being said, I have discussed at length loving, committed relationships
with my children. I have discussed disease and pregnancy. I have discussed
emotional ramifications that are often associated with being sexual with
someone. I have discussed that fornication is fornication, whether I have a
punishment for it or not, whether I see it as right or wrong or not. I don't
necessarily think that my beliefs are their beliefs nor expect that they would follow
all of mine.
I'm Baptist, one child grew up to want to be Catholic, so she went through
all the classes and is now a practicing Catholic, not because of a spouse who
wanted her to convert or having children who "must" be raised in the faith, but
because she chose to embrace that particular religion. Of course a lot of
GOOD Baptists would be glad to tell you that Catholics are going to hell...
apparently I am NOT a good Baptist.
One son wanted to be Jewish in the worst way when he was around the seven to
nine year old age. (MANY nights of presents appealed to him more than waiting
the ONE night for Santa) We did lots of research on it, we explored Jewish
customs and participated with Jewish families, not just at Hanukkah time. He
liked the feeling of being special, different I think. It passed after a while.
He met a really extreme Jewish family who lobbied the school to have no
instance of "Christmas" in the building. No decorating with snowmen, no Santa's in
sight, no candy canes even. He wrongly judged Jewish people on one family
that was very fanatical and I think it was more about causing a fuss than their
religion. He no longer wanted to be Jewish anymore. So he's not, not really
anything.
My DH's family thinks it HIGHLY extreme that I ALLOW my 23 year old daughter
to convert and be a practicing Catholic. They think it's wrong that I serve
wine with dinner, they think a lot of things are extreme and wrong. Some
people are like that, whatever it is that THEY don't approve of, it's extreme
behaviour if you do it or "allow" your kids to do it.
Can we ever really "allow" our kids to do things? I know I've said, I'd
rather they NOT do things, but that doesn't carry any threat of punishment or
consequences from me if they choose to go ahead with whatever activity is being
discussed.
How would one stop one's child from doing something they didn't approve of?
Do you just tell them so they stop it? Do you hit them so they stop it? Do
you ground them so you can watch every move? Do you never let them out of your
sight to do anything outside the home? Do you call the police?
What does it look like to stop a child from doing something they want to do
but you do not want them to? I can understand the mutual respect that would
cause a child or parent to not do something, but I don't know how it would look
to stop a child that truly wanted to do something. Probably not a pretty
sight.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wifetovegman2002@... writes:
"because you might,
you need to know what the consequences might be", and
instead of saying, "don't because it is a sin" also
been more practical and concrete in the reasons given.
I think because there are very few absolute NO's in my house my children are
more free to discuss things with me.
Probably those who feel that way have issues that you suggested come up well
before the child is ready to experiment for themselves.
In my own personal experience we discussed EVERYTHING in the world around us
long before it even pertained to the children, just observations about life.
Movies and TV bring up LOTS of opportunities for discussing real life things.
When something personally pertains to them (i.e., drugs, alcohol, sex) we've
probably already discussed it in many contexts and it's not some out there
abstract unknown whatif type situation.
In the very top of my linen closet is a shoe box. Inside said shoe box are
condoms, all varieties, all kinds and even sizes (Internet site that you buy
them buy the dozens for good prices). I have not looked inside that box in the
six years since I put it there. I have taken the lid off and thrown more
inside. Sometimes finding it too full to add.
I also know that other teens who are 19, 20 and sometimes even older visit
the linen closet before heading back to college.
My children do NOT regal me with tales of the sexual escapades but I do know
who they've had sex with and who they've made love with and it's not because
I've asked, they've felt like sharing.
Sometimes they will come and say they've made a mistake by taking a
relationship to that level, I think it shows maturity to be able to say that.
My oldest boy was sick for a week once at age 16, didn't want to see his
girlfriend. I thought it must be a sickness of the heart. Finally he confided to
me that he had "done the deed" and was just sick about it and worried what I
would think about it. (in regard to it being that particular girl) We talked
for a long time, he felt better, much better. He's 22 now, he's still with the
same girl, they live together not far from here, I'm pretty sure he's having
sex outside of marriage. I've talked to him about why NOT marry the girl.
Makes sense to me if you've been with someone since before your 15th birthday
and you are now 22 and you've lived together since you were 18 that marriage
might be on the horizon or at least an engagement. But apparently not. I don't
love him any less, there are no repercussions, it's just life.
Same with my older girl. I could have said if you have sex before marriage I
am not sending you to college, but WHY would you? So they either don't or
say they haven't had sex, go off to college where there is no way in the world
that you can keep those same ground rules for your child and it just opens up
the avenue to a deceitful relationship.
That being said, I have discussed at length loving, committed relationships
with my children. I have discussed disease and pregnancy. I have discussed
emotional ramifications that are often associated with being sexual with
someone. I have discussed that fornication is fornication, whether I have a
punishment for it or not, whether I see it as right or wrong or not. I don't
necessarily think that my beliefs are their beliefs nor expect that they would follow
all of mine.
I'm Baptist, one child grew up to want to be Catholic, so she went through
all the classes and is now a practicing Catholic, not because of a spouse who
wanted her to convert or having children who "must" be raised in the faith, but
because she chose to embrace that particular religion. Of course a lot of
GOOD Baptists would be glad to tell you that Catholics are going to hell...
apparently I am NOT a good Baptist.
One son wanted to be Jewish in the worst way when he was around the seven to
nine year old age. (MANY nights of presents appealed to him more than waiting
the ONE night for Santa) We did lots of research on it, we explored Jewish
customs and participated with Jewish families, not just at Hanukkah time. He
liked the feeling of being special, different I think. It passed after a while.
He met a really extreme Jewish family who lobbied the school to have no
instance of "Christmas" in the building. No decorating with snowmen, no Santa's in
sight, no candy canes even. He wrongly judged Jewish people on one family
that was very fanatical and I think it was more about causing a fuss than their
religion. He no longer wanted to be Jewish anymore. So he's not, not really
anything.
My DH's family thinks it HIGHLY extreme that I ALLOW my 23 year old daughter
to convert and be a practicing Catholic. They think it's wrong that I serve
wine with dinner, they think a lot of things are extreme and wrong. Some
people are like that, whatever it is that THEY don't approve of, it's extreme
behaviour if you do it or "allow" your kids to do it.
Can we ever really "allow" our kids to do things? I know I've said, I'd
rather they NOT do things, but that doesn't carry any threat of punishment or
consequences from me if they choose to go ahead with whatever activity is being
discussed.
How would one stop one's child from doing something they didn't approve of?
Do you just tell them so they stop it? Do you hit them so they stop it? Do
you ground them so you can watch every move? Do you never let them out of your
sight to do anything outside the home? Do you call the police?
What does it look like to stop a child from doing something they want to do
but you do not want them to? I can understand the mutual respect that would
cause a child or parent to not do something, but I don't know how it would look
to stop a child that truly wanted to do something. Probably not a pretty
sight.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I think at some point I'd be really angry that I had been bribed to accept
><<If they decided to go ahead and have sex, they would lose their driving
>privileges and not be allowed to go to college until they were old enough
>to act mature enough to be trusted. >>
someone else's morals as my own. The fact that they *say* they agree with
you on them is beside the point. They really don't have much of a choice,
do they? Your way or the highway.
Tia
Dawn Adams
Janet writes;
They're also set up to disobey you. If one has sex, they can't tell you. It would put their future and freedom at risk. They will have to decieve.
And the punishment is so strange. 'You haven't acted maturely so I'm going to make sure you can't mature any further by keeping you under my thumb.' That's fine as long as they're under your thumb, once they're out and free...What stops them then?
Do you trust your own parenting, so that you know they'd make responsible choices about sex? Do you trust that they would come to you if they needed to if it involved sex?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>If they decided to go ahead and have sex, they would lose their drivingThis paragraph really bugs me, especially coming from an unschooler. I thought the basis of unschooling was trust. It has to be. You're handing your child's education over to them and trusting them to learn what they need. How can you trust your child, truly, if you've already got punishments set up. You don't need punishmenats if you trust your children to make the right choices.
>privileges and not be allowed to go to college until they were old enough
>to act mature enough to be trusted. (they are all homeschooled but start
>college at age 16 if they want to - through MN's PSEO program - free two
>years of college!)
They're also set up to disobey you. If one has sex, they can't tell you. It would put their future and freedom at risk. They will have to decieve.
And the punishment is so strange. 'You haven't acted maturely so I'm going to make sure you can't mature any further by keeping you under my thumb.' That's fine as long as they're under your thumb, once they're out and free...What stops them then?
Do you trust your own parenting, so that you know they'd make responsible choices about sex? Do you trust that they would come to you if they needed to if it involved sex?
Dawn (in NS)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 3:08:33 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< In the very top of my linen closet is a shoe box. Inside said shoe box
are
condoms, all varieties, all kinds and even sizes (Internet site that you buy
them buy the dozens for good prices). I have not looked inside that box in
the
six years since I put it there. >>
I don't know how true or valid it is, but condoms have started having
expiration dates on them. Six years might be too long. (Maybe someone here knows
the current info on shelf-life.)
Sandra
<< In the very top of my linen closet is a shoe box. Inside said shoe box
are
condoms, all varieties, all kinds and even sizes (Internet site that you buy
them buy the dozens for good prices). I have not looked inside that box in
the
six years since I put it there. >>
I don't know how true or valid it is, but condoms have started having
expiration dates on them. Six years might be too long. (Maybe someone here knows
the current info on shelf-life.)
Sandra
[email protected]
<<In a message dated 12/9/2003 5:08:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
I've talked to him about why NOT marry the girl.
Makes sense to me if you've been with someone since before your 15th birthday
and you are now 22 and you've lived together since you were 18 that marriage
might be on the horizon or at least an engagement. But apparently not. I
don't
love him any less, there are no repercussions, it's just life.>>>
*******************************************************
My little sister is getting married this weekend to a boy she has known for 1
year. They have lost their apartment in RI and have moved in with his
parents. She is 9 weeks pregnant. They are getting married NOW because the boys
parents refuse to let them sleep in the same room or bed. I have offered her to
move here she says no. I suspect the same sleeping arrangements will continue
after they are married also. She says if it does she is leaving him. I have
tried to talk to her she doesn't want to listen right now.
She was raised catholic and went to only catholic schools and daycare's. She
is pregnant and planned to be as a rebellion at my Mom. As soon as she began
to be attracted to boys and close to sexual encounters my Mom began to treat
her poorly and later called her horrible names.
When she was 16 she came to me and said she thought she was pregnant. I asked
for some details and found that she never had intercourse just foreplay. My
Mom never told her anything! All she knew was that my Mom said no sex bf
marriage. Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
I've talked to him about why NOT marry the girl.
Makes sense to me if you've been with someone since before your 15th birthday
and you are now 22 and you've lived together since you were 18 that marriage
might be on the horizon or at least an engagement. But apparently not. I
don't
love him any less, there are no repercussions, it's just life.>>>
*******************************************************
My little sister is getting married this weekend to a boy she has known for 1
year. They have lost their apartment in RI and have moved in with his
parents. She is 9 weeks pregnant. They are getting married NOW because the boys
parents refuse to let them sleep in the same room or bed. I have offered her to
move here she says no. I suspect the same sleeping arrangements will continue
after they are married also. She says if it does she is leaving him. I have
tried to talk to her she doesn't want to listen right now.
She was raised catholic and went to only catholic schools and daycare's. She
is pregnant and planned to be as a rebellion at my Mom. As soon as she began
to be attracted to boys and close to sexual encounters my Mom began to treat
her poorly and later called her horrible names.
When she was 16 she came to me and said she thought she was pregnant. I asked
for some details and found that she never had intercourse just foreplay. My
Mom never told her anything! All she knew was that my Mom said no sex bf
marriage. Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
--- In [email protected], HMSL2@a... wrote:
old having sex. Intellectually I can say that but when I think of my
kids (who haven't hit puberty yet) having sex, I can't feel
comfortable with it. Not sure why, but I definitely feel discomfort!
If I'm talking about another person's kids, I'm ok with it. (Did NOT
used to be ok with it and still am not ok with people of any age
sleeping around with tons of people).
Sheila
> In a message dated 12/9/2003 12:18:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,tpjg@r...
> writes:having
> But I would
> not allow my children to knowingly put themselves in danger by
> sex early without serious consequences.I think a teen having sex is at the same amount of risk as a 40 year
old having sex. Intellectually I can say that but when I think of my
kids (who haven't hit puberty yet) having sex, I can't feel
comfortable with it. Not sure why, but I definitely feel discomfort!
If I'm talking about another person's kids, I'm ok with it. (Did NOT
used to be ok with it and still am not ok with people of any age
sleeping around with tons of people).
Sheila
Mary
From: <SandraDodd@...>
<<I don't know how true or valid it is, but condoms have started having
expiration dates on them. Six years might be too long. (Maybe someone here
knows
the current info on shelf-life.)>>
Latex condoms, if there is no expiration date should be used within 5 years
of the manufacturing date. If they have spermacide with them, it's 2 years.
And where they are kept makes a difference too. Cool, dry and no sun.
(before use of course BEG>)
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<I don't know how true or valid it is, but condoms have started having
expiration dates on them. Six years might be too long. (Maybe someone here
knows
the current info on shelf-life.)>>
Latex condoms, if there is no expiration date should be used within 5 years
of the manufacturing date. If they have spermacide with them, it's 2 years.
And where they are kept makes a difference too. Cool, dry and no sun.
(before use of course BEG>)
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Robyn Coburn
<<Not a one of them knows that I would react with removal of
privilidges if they started fooling around, so that's not going to
cause them to hide what they are doing.>>
Are you saying that you have these planned punishments of not being allowed
to drive, and being kept from college, but are keeping them secret from your
children? That doesn't seem to be a good way to foster trust. Have you used
punishments and coercion in the past as a way to enforce certain behaviors?
Hope they don't read this list - your secret may be out.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
privilidges if they started fooling around, so that's not going to
cause them to hide what they are doing.>>
Are you saying that you have these planned punishments of not being allowed
to drive, and being kept from college, but are keeping them secret from your
children? That doesn't seem to be a good way to foster trust. Have you used
punishments and coercion in the past as a way to enforce certain behaviors?
Hope they don't read this list - your secret may be out.
Robyn L. Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/2003 8:31:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
Latex condoms, if there is no expiration date should be used within 5 years
of the manufacturing date. If they have spermacide with them, it's 2 years.
And where they are kept makes a difference too. Cool, dry and no sun.
I'm SURE the original contents are not still there (but just cause you all
mentioned it, I think I'll take the box down and check them but maybe not, I DID
promise to NEVER look inside, one child thought it would be WAY so
embarrassing if one or the other of them started counting and pointing fingers at some
point). I've bought and put MANY dozens in that little shoe box over the last
six years. There are LOTS of young adults who know about the existence of the
box and have well utilized it over the years, no questions asked.
Better safe than suffering in who knows how many possible ways.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
Latex condoms, if there is no expiration date should be used within 5 years
of the manufacturing date. If they have spermacide with them, it's 2 years.
And where they are kept makes a difference too. Cool, dry and no sun.
I'm SURE the original contents are not still there (but just cause you all
mentioned it, I think I'll take the box down and check them but maybe not, I DID
promise to NEVER look inside, one child thought it would be WAY so
embarrassing if one or the other of them started counting and pointing fingers at some
point). I've bought and put MANY dozens in that little shoe box over the last
six years. There are LOTS of young adults who know about the existence of the
box and have well utilized it over the years, no questions asked.
Better safe than suffering in who knows how many possible ways.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 7:25:24 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< (Did NOT
used to be ok with it and still am not ok with people of any age
sleeping around with tons of people). >>
I think this is the first mention of "tons of people."
And it only takes one partner to get someone pregnant or to give them a
sexually transmitted disease.
Sandra
<< (Did NOT
used to be ok with it and still am not ok with people of any age
sleeping around with tons of people). >>
I think this is the first mention of "tons of people."
And it only takes one partner to get someone pregnant or to give them a
sexually transmitted disease.
Sandra
kayb85
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
saying. I think what I was trying to express is that what wouldn't
be ok with me is the desperate behavior that some people stereotype
teens with--having sex all the time as a form of rebellion or need of
love. But unschoolers aren't likely to do anything out of rebellion
or a need of love, which is really cool.
Sheila
>them a
> In a message dated 12/9/03 7:25:24 PM, sheran@p... writes:
>
> << (Did NOT
>
> used to be ok with it and still am not ok with people of any age
>
> sleeping around with tons of people). >>
>
> I think this is the first mention of "tons of people."
>
> And it only takes one partner to get someone pregnant or to give
> sexually transmitted disease.You're right, and I wasn't trying to say that's what everyone was
>
> Sandra
saying. I think what I was trying to express is that what wouldn't
be ok with me is the desperate behavior that some people stereotype
teens with--having sex all the time as a form of rebellion or need of
love. But unschoolers aren't likely to do anything out of rebellion
or a need of love, which is really cool.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 9:21:59 PM, rubyprincesstsg@... writes:
<< I'm SURE the original contents are not still there (but just cause you all
mentioned it, I think I'll take the box down and check them but maybe not, I
DID
promise to NEVER look inside, one child thought it would be WAY so
embarrassing if one or the other of them started counting and pointing
fingers at some
point). >>
You could just ask the kids to check the expiration dates. Or maybe order a
new batch and get one of the kids to replace the old ones, but throw them away
and don't give them away IF they're very old. Then you still haven't had to
look in there.
Sandra
<< I'm SURE the original contents are not still there (but just cause you all
mentioned it, I think I'll take the box down and check them but maybe not, I
DID
promise to NEVER look inside, one child thought it would be WAY so
embarrassing if one or the other of them started counting and pointing
fingers at some
point). >>
You could just ask the kids to check the expiration dates. Or maybe order a
new batch and get one of the kids to replace the old ones, but throw them away
and don't give them away IF they're very old. Then you still haven't had to
look in there.
Sandra
Cornerstone Community Farm
On Monday 08 December 2003 11:37 pm, arcarpenter@... wrote:
No such thing.
Check out the actual statistics.
www.medinstitute.org is a non-profit organization run by a OB/GYN M.D.
with accurate info.
Keith
> As long as they're mature enough andPart of the big lie in our culture is "safe sex".
> supported enough to stay safe (using protection, etc.), they can
> survive the heartache,
No such thing.
Check out the actual statistics.
www.medinstitute.org is a non-profit organization run by a OB/GYN M.D.
with accurate info.
Keith