Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] extreme behavior
[email protected]
At 11:50 AM 12/8/03 +0000, you wrote:
sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be "tolerated".
Janet in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>My children have not experienced the "extreme behavior" you seem to beSounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but had
>worried about. "Tolerance for risky or demonstrably destructive choices"
>hasn't been an issue at our house. I think Kirby had sex a time or two
>(at the same camping event) but I know he had condoms because I have them
>to him when he seemed in a possible range.
sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be "tolerated".
Janet in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/03 10:05:54 AM, tpjg@... writes:
<< Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but
had
sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be
"tolerated". >>
How old are your children?
Do you have a teenaged boy?
When one of them has sex will you lie about it or accept it?
How will it look in practical terms when you do not "tolerate" it?
I'm willing to discuss it further if you answer those questions for me.
Sandra
<< Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but
had
sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be
"tolerated". >>
How old are your children?
Do you have a teenaged boy?
When one of them has sex will you lie about it or accept it?
How will it look in practical terms when you do not "tolerate" it?
I'm willing to discuss it further if you answer those questions for me.
Sandra
TreeGoddess
Sex is "extreme" behavior? It's human behavior. Do you think you
could -stop- your teenage child(ren) from having sex? Open
communication goes a long way toward conducting themselves responsibly.
-Tracy-
could -stop- your teenage child(ren) from having sex? Open
communication goes a long way toward conducting themselves responsibly.
-Tracy-
On Dec 8, 2003, at 9:19 AM, tpjg@... wrote:
> Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior
> but had sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not
> be "tolerated". Janet in MN
J. Stauffer
<<<<Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but
had
********************************************
What does that mean, would not be "tolerated?" Exactly, how are you going
to do anything BUT tolerate it, unless you plan on kicking the kid out or
locking them up in their room?
Sandra posted that she talked with him about the possible consequences, that
she talked to him about protecting himself. Kirby, although I only know him
"virtually" through email with his mom, appears to have been working to make
an informed choice on how to handle his very natural urges. He is a teen
after all, not a child.
I was engaging in sexual behavior by the time I was Kirby's age. But I knew
how pregnancy occurred, so I didn't have intercourse until I was 19 and
engaged. Didn't lead to promiscuity....I've only engaged in sexual activity
with 3 men....and only one for the last 20 years <grin>.
Pre-marital sex can be a "not so terrible" thing provided people have access
to information. Uninformed sex of any kind can be a disaster.
I guess Sandra could have screeched at Kirby or grounded him or had him read
Bible verses about how he will go to hell for it.......the most that would
accomplish is that he will simply be sneakier about it next time.
Julie S.
had
> sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be"tolerated".>>>>
********************************************
What does that mean, would not be "tolerated?" Exactly, how are you going
to do anything BUT tolerate it, unless you plan on kicking the kid out or
locking them up in their room?
Sandra posted that she talked with him about the possible consequences, that
she talked to him about protecting himself. Kirby, although I only know him
"virtually" through email with his mom, appears to have been working to make
an informed choice on how to handle his very natural urges. He is a teen
after all, not a child.
I was engaging in sexual behavior by the time I was Kirby's age. But I knew
how pregnancy occurred, so I didn't have intercourse until I was 19 and
engaged. Didn't lead to promiscuity....I've only engaged in sexual activity
with 3 men....and only one for the last 20 years <grin>.
Pre-marital sex can be a "not so terrible" thing provided people have access
to information. Uninformed sex of any kind can be a disaster.
I guess Sandra could have screeched at Kirby or grounded him or had him read
Bible verses about how he will go to hell for it.......the most that would
accomplish is that he will simply be sneakier about it next time.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <tpjg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] extreme behavior
> At 11:50 AM 12/8/03 +0000, you wrote:
> >My children have not experienced the "extreme behavior" you seem to be
> >worried about. "Tolerance for risky or demonstrably destructive
choices"
> >hasn't been an issue at our house. I think Kirby had sex a time or two
> >(at the same camping event) but I know he had condoms because I have
them
> >to him when he seemed in a possible range.
>
>> Janet in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
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http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>
>
>
Elizabeth Roberts
There was a time when teens would be married and living their own lives, were considered young adults with all correlating responsibilities.
"Teen" is a modern concept, and one artificially invented in post-industrial revolutionary times in part to help people to accept the continued indoctrination of children of immigrants into American society. By labeling young adults as children, they could then be forced to stay in the school system until their indoctrination into our values and belief systems was completed, regardless of their natural abilities and inclinations towards other things.
The biological impulses that occur with puberty occur without regards to our modern concept of "teenagers." It's not wrong per se for them to be fulfilling those desires. They will do it irregardless of our desires for their lives. Either they do it behind our backs, and in riskier ways both physically and mentally; or we teach them to take care of themselves, and let them know that while we may not agree with their decision to be sexually active, it is THEIR decision and not ours. We can encourage them to be responsible in their decisions by pointing out to them things they might not have thought about in regards to their physical and/or emotional health, and let them know that we will be there to help them to sort out any physical and/or emotional repercussions.
That's alot better than freaking out and risk losing your children's love and respect for you because of a decision they make.
MamaBeth
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Teen" is a modern concept, and one artificially invented in post-industrial revolutionary times in part to help people to accept the continued indoctrination of children of immigrants into American society. By labeling young adults as children, they could then be forced to stay in the school system until their indoctrination into our values and belief systems was completed, regardless of their natural abilities and inclinations towards other things.
The biological impulses that occur with puberty occur without regards to our modern concept of "teenagers." It's not wrong per se for them to be fulfilling those desires. They will do it irregardless of our desires for their lives. Either they do it behind our backs, and in riskier ways both physically and mentally; or we teach them to take care of themselves, and let them know that while we may not agree with their decision to be sexually active, it is THEIR decision and not ours. We can encourage them to be responsible in their decisions by pointing out to them things they might not have thought about in regards to their physical and/or emotional health, and let them know that we will be there to help them to sort out any physical and/or emotional repercussions.
That's alot better than freaking out and risk losing your children's love and respect for you because of a decision they make.
MamaBeth
Everything I need to know, I learned on my own!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I wrote that for myself only, as mom to my children UNDER 14, sexual
contact with others belonged in a category of risky extremes.
Maybe you see it differently for your children and yourself.
But I don't see any reason why such a difference would prevent either
of us from unschooling happily (or co-existing happily on this list.)
treegoddess@... writes:
contact with others belonged in a category of risky extremes.
Maybe you see it differently for your children and yourself.
But I don't see any reason why such a difference would prevent either
of us from unschooling happily (or co-existing happily on this list.)
treegoddess@... writes:
> Sex is "extreme" behavior? It's human behavior. Do you think you[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> could -stop- your teenage child(ren) from having sex? Open
> communication goes a long way toward conducting themselves responsibly.
>
Tia Leschke
>It wasn't "tolerated" in my house either, but that didn't stop me. Not
> >My children have not experienced the "extreme behavior" you seem to be
> >worried about. "Tolerance for risky or demonstrably destructive choices"
> >hasn't been an issue at our house. I think Kirby had sex a time or two
> >(at the same camping event) but I know he had condoms because I have them
> >to him when he seemed in a possible range.
>
>Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but had
>sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be "tolerated".
feeling that I could talk with my mother about making it less extreme
(birth control advice, etc.) ahead of time meant that I got pregnant
because of it. Luckily, we then *had* to talk, and it was the start of a
lifelong friendship with my mother.
Tia
Dawn Adams
Janet writes:
Dawn (who will hopefully keep her view that sex in natural when her children become randy teenagers)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but hadSex extreme? It's just natural. Besides, it wasn't in her house, it was at a camping event. <g>
>sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be "tolerated".
Dawn (who will hopefully keep her view that sex in natural when her children become randy teenagers)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/03 11:33:52 AM, mamabethuscg@... writes:
<< Either they do it behind our backs, and in riskier ways both physically
and mentally; or we teach them to take care of themselves, and let them know
that while we may not agree with their decision to be sexually active, it is
THEIR decision and not ours. We can encourage them to be responsible in their
decisions by pointing out to them things they might not have thought about in
regards to their physical and/or emotional health, and let them know that we will
be there to help them to sort out any physical and/or emotional repercussions.
And it's not like I went to Kirby and said "Seems maybe this happened. GOOD
IDEA!"
And as of December 2003, he is not "sexually active." He might have lost his
virginity nearly a year ago, or possibly not quite. If that had awakened a
crazy urge in him, he has opportunity, female friends, a driver's license, all
of that. Yet he doesn't maintain much flirtation. He went out a couple of t
imes (not date-like, high school "date" style, but to a movie, to eat, to hang
out) with a girl who has made clear for years that any time Kirby wants a girl
friend and doesn't have one she wants the job. He went to her apartment,
where she was living alone. They watched a movie and he drove home. She came
too, in her car, because he wanted to bring the van back ( I didn't make him,
nor even call a time he should be home), but they still wanted to hang out.
They hung out at our house, lots of lights on, playing board games or cards with
Holly.
That's the most recent date of a teenager at my house. Not "sexual activity."
<<"Teen" is a modern concept, and one artificially invented in
post-industrial revolutionary times ....>>
In a way, maybe.
But in Europe the ages 18 (in France) and 21 (in England) have had
significance in the past as the ages at which young men who were destined to be knights
were knighted. So the idea of those birthdays as hallmarks of something or
other are not new.
And as to marriage, there are also periods in history in which girls didn't
marry boys their own age. Teenaged girls "of society" more likely married
older men (late 20's, 30's) who had finished their education, had their business
steadily going, and had a house.
Among other classes, teenagers might be off and running at their own
apprenticeships or real work long before 18. They were sailors or bakers or whatever,
at least at apprentice level, whether for their dads or someone who would
take them to train them (to have cheap labor) and that was the end of their being
at home with their parents. Fourteen or fifteen years old.
I still think the suggestion that parents who allow kids to play "violent
video games" are inviting or condoning "extreme behavior" sounds like the
suggestion of a mother with little children, not teens.
Sandra
<< Either they do it behind our backs, and in riskier ways both physically
and mentally; or we teach them to take care of themselves, and let them know
that while we may not agree with their decision to be sexually active, it is
THEIR decision and not ours. We can encourage them to be responsible in their
decisions by pointing out to them things they might not have thought about in
regards to their physical and/or emotional health, and let them know that we will
be there to help them to sort out any physical and/or emotional repercussions.
>>Yes.
And it's not like I went to Kirby and said "Seems maybe this happened. GOOD
IDEA!"
And as of December 2003, he is not "sexually active." He might have lost his
virginity nearly a year ago, or possibly not quite. If that had awakened a
crazy urge in him, he has opportunity, female friends, a driver's license, all
of that. Yet he doesn't maintain much flirtation. He went out a couple of t
imes (not date-like, high school "date" style, but to a movie, to eat, to hang
out) with a girl who has made clear for years that any time Kirby wants a girl
friend and doesn't have one she wants the job. He went to her apartment,
where she was living alone. They watched a movie and he drove home. She came
too, in her car, because he wanted to bring the van back ( I didn't make him,
nor even call a time he should be home), but they still wanted to hang out.
They hung out at our house, lots of lights on, playing board games or cards with
Holly.
That's the most recent date of a teenager at my house. Not "sexual activity."
<<"Teen" is a modern concept, and one artificially invented in
post-industrial revolutionary times ....>>
In a way, maybe.
But in Europe the ages 18 (in France) and 21 (in England) have had
significance in the past as the ages at which young men who were destined to be knights
were knighted. So the idea of those birthdays as hallmarks of something or
other are not new.
And as to marriage, there are also periods in history in which girls didn't
marry boys their own age. Teenaged girls "of society" more likely married
older men (late 20's, 30's) who had finished their education, had their business
steadily going, and had a house.
Among other classes, teenagers might be off and running at their own
apprenticeships or real work long before 18. They were sailors or bakers or whatever,
at least at apprentice level, whether for their dads or someone who would
take them to train them (to have cheap labor) and that was the end of their being
at home with their parents. Fourteen or fifteen years old.
I still think the suggestion that parents who allow kids to play "violent
video games" are inviting or condoning "extreme behavior" sounds like the
suggestion of a mother with little children, not teens.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/03 11:38:19 AM, jrossedd@... writes:
<< I wrote that for myself only, as mom to my children UNDER 14,
sexual
contact with others belonged in a category of risky extremes.
<<Maybe you see it differently for your children and yourself. >>
Nobody has suggested sexual contact for children under fourteen. Nobody
suggested sexual contact at ALL! Someone has created a straw man, given him a
name, and accused the rest of us of killing him.
Just stop the hypotheticals and talk about real people and real experiences.
Sandra
<< I wrote that for myself only, as mom to my children UNDER 14,
sexual
contact with others belonged in a category of risky extremes.
<<Maybe you see it differently for your children and yourself. >>
Nobody has suggested sexual contact for children under fourteen. Nobody
suggested sexual contact at ALL! Someone has created a straw man, given him a
name, and accused the rest of us of killing him.
Just stop the hypotheticals and talk about real people and real experiences.
Sandra
Wife2Vegman
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
my children have morphed considerably since Sarah and
Andrew were 3 and 2.
And the third child, Aaron, who is 5 now, sees and
hears so much more than they were allowed to at his
age, and he is so cool and funny and not at all the
"demon child" I thought they would turn into if
exposed to scarey or violent or more things. I
am enjoying his childhood more than I enjoyed the
other two, because I realize that he is going to be
okay, in spite of my efforts ;-)
I look at parents who have one or maybe two very
little children who are trying so hard to teach them
and train them and I smile remembering I was like that
too, and hopefully I can talk to them and reassure
them that they can relax and enjoy them. Sometimes
just pointing out how funny they are being right then
is all that parent needs. You can see the tension
ease away.
Susan
wifetovegman
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
>This is true. My ideals (and ideas) about life with
> I still think the suggestion that parents who allow
> kids to play "violent
> video games" are inviting or condoning "extreme
> behavior" sounds like the
> suggestion of a mother with little children, not
> teens.
>
my children have morphed considerably since Sarah and
Andrew were 3 and 2.
And the third child, Aaron, who is 5 now, sees and
hears so much more than they were allowed to at his
age, and he is so cool and funny and not at all the
"demon child" I thought they would turn into if
exposed to scarey or violent or more things. I
am enjoying his childhood more than I enjoyed the
other two, because I realize that he is going to be
okay, in spite of my efforts ;-)
I look at parents who have one or maybe two very
little children who are trying so hard to teach them
and train them and I smile remembering I was like that
too, and hopefully I can talk to them and reassure
them that they can relax and enjoy them. Sometimes
just pointing out how funny they are being right then
is all that parent needs. You can see the tension
ease away.
Susan
wifetovegman
__________________________________
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New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/
[email protected]
This reminds me of a conversation about Christmas trees in the home. A mom
this week said that if her child touches the tree she pops him. I was and still
am speechless. She followed the comment with "Dont email me about popping my
child its not up for discussion" huh??
I dont consider my self an expert but I do have a 12 yr. old and pretty much
raised my lil sister saving her emotionally (I think). I quietly commented
that restricting a child like that will cause them to take more interest than
they would have had they been left to explore safely. Laura
********************************************************
<<I look at parents who have one or maybe two very
little children who are trying so hard to teach them
and train them and I smile remembering I was like that
too, and hopefully I can talk to them and reassure
them that they can relax and enjoy them. Sometimes
just pointing out how funny they are being right then
is all that parent needs. You can see the tension
ease away.
Susan
wifetovegman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this week said that if her child touches the tree she pops him. I was and still
am speechless. She followed the comment with "Dont email me about popping my
child its not up for discussion" huh??
I dont consider my self an expert but I do have a 12 yr. old and pretty much
raised my lil sister saving her emotionally (I think). I quietly commented
that restricting a child like that will cause them to take more interest than
they would have had they been left to explore safely. Laura
********************************************************
<<I look at parents who have one or maybe two very
little children who are trying so hard to teach them
and train them and I smile remembering I was like that
too, and hopefully I can talk to them and reassure
them that they can relax and enjoy them. Sometimes
just pointing out how funny they are being right then
is all that parent needs. You can see the tension
ease away.
Susan
wifetovegman
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary
From: <tpjg@...>
<<Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but
had
sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be
"tolerated".>>
I am very curious as to how this seems like a contradiction to you. I don't
see sex as extreme behavior at all. At least not in the the way Sandra
explained it. Now a teen having sex with multiple partners consistently is,
imo, extreme behavior. That's when one should take great measures in helping
the teen with the motive behind that behavior. Taking a "not tolerated"
stance is not going to help that person find what it is they are really
looking for.
If a teenager has a girlfriend and thinks about having sex with her, and is
knowledgeable about all the facts, how can having sex with her be an
intolerable choice to make? Whether he keeps on seeing her or decides he
doesn't want to anymore? And is there an age where sex for your teen would
be okay? Or is it just marriage that makes it alright? And on that note,
does one need to not live at home, be engaged or married, and is married
young still an okay so they can have sex?
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me..... no extreme behavior but
had
sex a time or two???? That's extreme in my house and would not be
"tolerated".>>
I am very curious as to how this seems like a contradiction to you. I don't
see sex as extreme behavior at all. At least not in the the way Sandra
explained it. Now a teen having sex with multiple partners consistently is,
imo, extreme behavior. That's when one should take great measures in helping
the teen with the motive behind that behavior. Taking a "not tolerated"
stance is not going to help that person find what it is they are really
looking for.
If a teenager has a girlfriend and thinks about having sex with her, and is
knowledgeable about all the facts, how can having sex with her be an
intolerable choice to make? Whether he keeps on seeing her or decides he
doesn't want to anymore? And is there an age where sex for your teen would
be okay? Or is it just marriage that makes it alright? And on that note,
does one need to not live at home, be engaged or married, and is married
young still an okay so they can have sex?
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Mary
From: "Elizabeth Roberts" <mamabethuscg@...>
snipped <<Either they do it behind our backs, and in riskier ways both
physically and mentally; or we teach them to take care of themselves, and
let them know that while we may not agree with their decision to be sexually
active, it is THEIR decision and not ours. We can encourage them to be
responsible in their decisions by pointing out to them things they might not
have thought about in regards to their physical and/or emotional health, and
let them know that we will be there to help them to sort out any physical
and/or emotional repercussions.
That's alot better than freaking out and risk losing your children's love
and respect for you because of a decision they make. >>
I just wanted this repeated because I think it well said.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
snipped <<Either they do it behind our backs, and in riskier ways both
physically and mentally; or we teach them to take care of themselves, and
let them know that while we may not agree with their decision to be sexually
active, it is THEIR decision and not ours. We can encourage them to be
responsible in their decisions by pointing out to them things they might not
have thought about in regards to their physical and/or emotional health, and
let them know that we will be there to help them to sort out any physical
and/or emotional repercussions.
That's alot better than freaking out and risk losing your children's love
and respect for you because of a decision they make. >>
I just wanted this repeated because I think it well said.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Mary
From: <jrossedd@...>
<<I wrote that for myself only, as mom to my children UNDER 14, sexual
contact with others belonged in a category of risky extremes. >>
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I dont know of any unschooled
kids under 14 that have the desire to be having sex. I see unschooled kids
as being so mature and responsible that they don't fall into the trappings
of what is acceptable and when as far as how other kids feel about wearing
certain fashions, having sex, trying drugs, etc. The fascination just isn't
there. When parents and children can talk openly about all those things, and
there is no taboo and rules of "you absolutely can not," the wants just
aren't the same as with schooled kids.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<I wrote that for myself only, as mom to my children UNDER 14, sexual
contact with others belonged in a category of risky extremes. >>
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I dont know of any unschooled
kids under 14 that have the desire to be having sex. I see unschooled kids
as being so mature and responsible that they don't fall into the trappings
of what is acceptable and when as far as how other kids feel about wearing
certain fashions, having sex, trying drugs, etc. The fascination just isn't
there. When parents and children can talk openly about all those things, and
there is no taboo and rules of "you absolutely can not," the wants just
aren't the same as with schooled kids.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
Mary
From: <HMSL2@...>
<<This reminds me of a conversation about Christmas trees in the home. A mom
this week said that if her child touches the tree she pops him. I was and
still
am speechless. >>
This reminds me of something today. I went out with the 3 little ones today.
We just went to Target. I was looking for long pants to fit them. I know the
cold weather will hit and they will pantless! They also wanted gloves.
Anyway, even though the store was crowded, we all managed well. We had a
good time. So we go to check out and Joseph wanted to see the YuGiOh cards
which are right by a check out lane. One guy came by with his cart and just
yelled at the kids to get out of the way yelling to them "kids, move, c'mon
you kids, get out of the way!" Well it didn't take but a second for me to
tell him that wasn't a very nice way to say excuse me along with a look that
would kill. I know I used the word rude in there somewhere too. His wife
sheepishly followed behind him and apologized to me and the kids. Then when
we were checking out, the check out lady in the next aisle commented about
Alyssa wanting candy. I asked Alyssa that didn't she still have the Nestle
crunch she got the other day. She ate about half. The lady told me to eat it
myself and then she'll not leave it next time. Yeah lady, that's a good
idea. So I was saying candy is no big deal in our house as it's always there
and they have no need to eat it all. Then she started on about how she
doesn't allow her son any candy at all. She said that she was severely
restictive with him. This is the same lady who told me to eat my kids
candy!!!! Well I had some words for her, I wasn't nasty but not really nice.
She pissed me off by butting in on whether my kids should have candy or not.
I guess maybe that's abusive in her eyes. After telling Joe he said he's
going to have to keep me at home from now, I start trouble when I go out!!!!
I feel bad for a lot of kids out there.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
<<This reminds me of a conversation about Christmas trees in the home. A mom
this week said that if her child touches the tree she pops him. I was and
still
am speechless. >>
This reminds me of something today. I went out with the 3 little ones today.
We just went to Target. I was looking for long pants to fit them. I know the
cold weather will hit and they will pantless! They also wanted gloves.
Anyway, even though the store was crowded, we all managed well. We had a
good time. So we go to check out and Joseph wanted to see the YuGiOh cards
which are right by a check out lane. One guy came by with his cart and just
yelled at the kids to get out of the way yelling to them "kids, move, c'mon
you kids, get out of the way!" Well it didn't take but a second for me to
tell him that wasn't a very nice way to say excuse me along with a look that
would kill. I know I used the word rude in there somewhere too. His wife
sheepishly followed behind him and apologized to me and the kids. Then when
we were checking out, the check out lady in the next aisle commented about
Alyssa wanting candy. I asked Alyssa that didn't she still have the Nestle
crunch she got the other day. She ate about half. The lady told me to eat it
myself and then she'll not leave it next time. Yeah lady, that's a good
idea. So I was saying candy is no big deal in our house as it's always there
and they have no need to eat it all. Then she started on about how she
doesn't allow her son any candy at all. She said that she was severely
restictive with him. This is the same lady who told me to eat my kids
candy!!!! Well I had some words for her, I wasn't nasty but not really nice.
She pissed me off by butting in on whether my kids should have candy or not.
I guess maybe that's abusive in her eyes. After telling Joe he said he's
going to have to keep me at home from now, I start trouble when I go out!!!!
I feel bad for a lot of kids out there.
Mary B.
http://www.homeschoolingtshirts.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/2003 10:24:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mummy124@... writes:
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I dont know of any unschooled
kids under 14 that have the desire to be having sex. I see unschooled kids
I do know a family of unschooled children who fit into that category. They
were most certainly unschooled, but not well. Not enough parent involvement
from what I saw. Lots of time alone to explore which isn't all bad, but
certainly can be if like anything else extreme enough.
They are the only unschoolers that I know in real life that are like this.
They have two boys one girl, all three VERY promiscuous in many ways.
I know MANY more schooled kids that behave like this though, even 11 year
olds.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mummy124@... writes:
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I dont know of any unschooled
kids under 14 that have the desire to be having sex. I see unschooled kids
I do know a family of unschooled children who fit into that category. They
were most certainly unschooled, but not well. Not enough parent involvement
from what I saw. Lots of time alone to explore which isn't all bad, but
certainly can be if like anything else extreme enough.
They are the only unschoolers that I know in real life that are like this.
They have two boys one girl, all three VERY promiscuous in many ways.
I know MANY more schooled kids that behave like this though, even 11 year
olds.
glena
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cornerstone Community Farm
On Monday 08 December 2003 11:50 am, TreeGoddess wrote:
We protect our children from dangers because they do not understand the
potential impact of an action (ie: running in front of a car)
Sex IS NOT merely shaking ones hands in greeting.
GREAT sex is much deeper, and never realized by most people.
I would like my daughter to have a GREAT sex life, so she is not in
situations where it is an option.
And she learned the arguments of great books like "I kissed dating good
bye" by Joshua Harris.
"Everyone" is NOT "doing it".
Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.
Keith
> Sex is "extreme" behavior? It's human behavior. Do you think youLying, selfishness, and most of the human condition is "human behavior".
> could -stop- your teenage child(ren) from having sex? Open
> communication goes a long way toward conducting themselves
> responsibly.
We protect our children from dangers because they do not understand the
potential impact of an action (ie: running in front of a car)
Sex IS NOT merely shaking ones hands in greeting.
GREAT sex is much deeper, and never realized by most people.
I would like my daughter to have a GREAT sex life, so she is not in
situations where it is an option.
And she learned the arguments of great books like "I kissed dating good
bye" by Joshua Harris.
"Everyone" is NOT "doing it".
Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.
Keith
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/8/03 10:09:15 PM, joyfullife@... writes:
<< Sex IS NOT merely shaking ones hands in greeting. >>
No, it's not. In many cultures, people don't shake hands.
In THIS culture women didn't shake hands until within the last hundred and
fifty years or so. So shaking hands is NOT a natural human behavior; it's
cultural.
<<"Everyone" is NOT "doing it".>>
Nobody said they were.
Nobody's advocating teens having sex.
This is WAY off the original topic.
I was in the process of rejecting this post when another moderator let it
through. The writer joined the list less than a week ago, and the intro letter
requests people to read for two weeks before posting.
This violates
6. Avoid using loaded terminology. For instance, "If you have no TV
restrictions why don't your kids just watch TV all day?" will get you more useful
responses than, "I don't see how your kids learn anything if all they ever do is
sit around like zombies watching unlimited TV." :
<<Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.>>
There's no way that can be anything but an insult.
Let's get back to unschooling if we can.
Sandra
<< Sex IS NOT merely shaking ones hands in greeting. >>
No, it's not. In many cultures, people don't shake hands.
In THIS culture women didn't shake hands until within the last hundred and
fifty years or so. So shaking hands is NOT a natural human behavior; it's
cultural.
<<"Everyone" is NOT "doing it".>>
Nobody said they were.
Nobody's advocating teens having sex.
This is WAY off the original topic.
I was in the process of rejecting this post when another moderator let it
through. The writer joined the list less than a week ago, and the intro letter
requests people to read for two weeks before posting.
This violates
6. Avoid using loaded terminology. For instance, "If you have no TV
restrictions why don't your kids just watch TV all day?" will get you more useful
responses than, "I don't see how your kids learn anything if all they ever do is
sit around like zombies watching unlimited TV." :
<<Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.>>
There's no way that can be anything but an insult.
Let's get back to unschooling if we can.
Sandra
TreeGoddess
Never said everyone was. Are you saying that the rest of us *don't*
want better for our kids? Gimme a break.
-Tracy-
want better for our kids? Gimme a break.
-Tracy-
On Dec 9, 2003, at 12:05 AM, Cornerstone Community Farm wrote:
> "Everyone" is NOT "doing it". Some of us want better for ourselves
> and our children.
J. Stauffer
<<Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.>>
Getting back to unschooling philosophy, what do the children want?
I don't understand why celibate is 'better' than sexually active, either.
Safer perhaps, but not necessarily better. Never letting kids ride in a car
is safer, but not necessarily better. Never letting the kids out of your
sight is safer, but not necessarily better.
As with most things, I think it depends on the kid, the situation, etc.. I
am surprised to find unschoolers with such a black and white interpretation,
to be honest.
Julie S.
Getting back to unschooling philosophy, what do the children want?
I don't understand why celibate is 'better' than sexually active, either.
Safer perhaps, but not necessarily better. Never letting kids ride in a car
is safer, but not necessarily better. Never letting the kids out of your
sight is safer, but not necessarily better.
As with most things, I think it depends on the kid, the situation, etc.. I
am surprised to find unschoolers with such a black and white interpretation,
to be honest.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cornerstone Community Farm" <joyfullife@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Sexuality
> On Monday 08 December 2003 11:50 am, TreeGoddess wrote:
> > Sex is "extreme" behavior? It's human behavior. Do you think you
> > could -stop- your teenage child(ren) from having sex? Open
> > communication goes a long way toward conducting themselves
> > responsibly.
> Lying, selfishness, and most of the human condition is "human behavior".
> We protect our children from dangers because they do not understand the
> potential impact of an action (ie: running in front of a car)
> Sex IS NOT merely shaking ones hands in greeting.
> GREAT sex is much deeper, and never realized by most people.
> I would like my daughter to have a GREAT sex life, so she is not in
> situations where it is an option.
> And she learned the arguments of great books like "I kissed dating good
> bye" by Joshua Harris.
> "Everyone" is NOT "doing it".
> Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.
> Keith
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 7:52:29 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I am surprised to find unschoolers with such a black and white
interpretation,
to be honest. >>
I'm not sure they're unschoolers.
I suspect (and I could be wrong) that a conservative fundamentalist called
for back-up.
I could be wrong.
If a family's decisions are made primarily on ensuring (they hope) that their
children will have eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, I think they
need to do that, then, and not debate with people for whom that isn't a belief
or a priority, in the way it is with born-again fundamentalists.
If one's life is a set of moral absolutes, then yes, why not tell your kids
what to do and when and where and how and why? Makes life easy. Easy for the
parent who says "Your soul was at stake, so that's why I told you what to do."
I've lived through and beyond that set of beliefs. Yes, maybe I'm going to
hell. I very seriously don't think so. Those who want to think I am are
probably not going to do this list a whole lot of good.
I could be wrong about that too.
Sandra
Sandra
<< I am surprised to find unschoolers with such a black and white
interpretation,
to be honest. >>
I'm not sure they're unschoolers.
I suspect (and I could be wrong) that a conservative fundamentalist called
for back-up.
I could be wrong.
If a family's decisions are made primarily on ensuring (they hope) that their
children will have eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, I think they
need to do that, then, and not debate with people for whom that isn't a belief
or a priority, in the way it is with born-again fundamentalists.
If one's life is a set of moral absolutes, then yes, why not tell your kids
what to do and when and where and how and why? Makes life easy. Easy for the
parent who says "Your soul was at stake, so that's why I told you what to do."
I've lived through and beyond that set of beliefs. Yes, maybe I'm going to
hell. I very seriously don't think so. Those who want to think I am are
probably not going to do this list a whole lot of good.
I could be wrong about that too.
Sandra
Sandra
Janet Gerla
I don't know if this is referring to me or not but I can assure you I
am not a fundamentalist, LOL!! If the fundamentalists knew someone
thought I was they would be horrified. :-)
Define "unschooler" for me and I'll tell you if I fit your
definition. I fit mine.....
Janet in MN
am not a fundamentalist, LOL!! If the fundamentalists knew someone
thought I was they would be horrified. :-)
Define "unschooler" for me and I'll tell you if I fit your
definition. I fit mine.....
Janet in MN
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> I'm not sure they're unschoolers.
> I suspect (and I could be wrong) that a conservative fundamentalist
called
> for back-up.
> I could be wrong.
----SNIP----
> I've lived through and beyond that set of beliefs. Yes, maybe I'm
going to
> hell. I very seriously don't think so. Those who want to think I
am are
> probably not going to do this list a whole lot of good.
>
> I could be wrong about that too.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> Sandra
[email protected]
>>In a message dated 12/9/2003 10:27:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,SandraDodd@... writes:If one's life is a set of moral absolutes, then yes, why not
tell your kids
what to do and when and where and how and why? Makes life easy. Easy for
the
parent who says "Your soul was at stake, so that's why I told you what to
do.">>
******************************************************************************
***************
Much to easy. Threat parenting blows up later.
Sounds like a whole lota "GUILT" to me. Have sex and you go to hell, have sex
and disappoint your parents, Defy us and feel our wrath. I wonder if a child
would even want to attend college knowing that they prob would have to stay in
the home under unreasonable rule? Im getting people mixed up but if this is
the same person HSing for 17 years she/you are not a knowledgeable expert in my
eyes. Your do as I say not as I do rules dont work for this Unschooling
family. How long have you been unschooling not HS unschool? Laura
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Including many of those who waited.
>GREAT sex is much deeper, and never realized by most people.
And some of us who didn't wait have found it, not right away, but eventually.
>I would like my daughter to have a GREAT sex life, so she is not inHow free is she to read books with other points of view?
>situations where it is an option.
>And she learned the arguments of great books like "I kissed dating good
>bye" by Joshua Harris.
Tia
Dawn Adams
Keith writes:
Keith writes:
Great sex? I want that myself. Sex is sometimes little more than a hug, sometimes a gift, sometimes great...sometimes barely worth mentioning...even in the middle of a loving relationship. Sex is no one thing and I find it and it's meaning change a lot within a relationship. In fact I have no aspirations for the quality of my kids sex, simply that it happens within a respectful, loving relationship.
Keith:
Keith:
Dawn (For whom sex was a no-no as a teenager...And so was terribly ignorant as an adult)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Lying, selfishness, and most of the human condition is "human behavior".Hopefully, If we've done our job of parenting right, by the time a young person is comtemplating sex they DO understand the potential impact and concequences. Teenagers aren't impulsive teenagers, or shouldn't be. (ie: running in front of a car)
>We protect our children from dangers because they do not understand the
>potential impact of an action
>(ie: running in front of a car)
Keith writes:
>Sex IS NOT merely shaking ones hands in greeting.True, sex isn't simply a greeting. So I'm hoping I can do a well enough job of parenting that my kids will realize this themselves by the time they begin to think of it. I don't want my teenager thinking her/his body is under anyone else's control, even mine.
>GREAT sex is much deeper, and never realized by most people.
>I would like my daughter to have a GREAT sex life, so she is not in
>situations where it is an option.
Great sex? I want that myself. Sex is sometimes little more than a hug, sometimes a gift, sometimes great...sometimes barely worth mentioning...even in the middle of a loving relationship. Sex is no one thing and I find it and it's meaning change a lot within a relationship. In fact I have no aspirations for the quality of my kids sex, simply that it happens within a respectful, loving relationship.
Keith:
>And she learned the arguments of great books like "I kissed dating goodThen it's her choice, good for her.
>bye" by Joshua Harris.
Keith:
>"Everyone" is NOT "doing it".Pffft. I don't want my kids having sex as teenagers either but I think when that day comes I'll have to trust my parenting and my kids and let them have the freedom of their own choices. For me, that is 'better'.
>Some of us want better for ourselves and our children.
Dawn (For whom sex was a no-no as a teenager...And so was terribly ignorant as an adult)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren
All this talk about teens and sex....quite interesting. Do parents REALLY believe they can control these human beings that have been in their care? REally?
We can guide, we can mentor, we can advise and assist and model....in the end we do not, can not control another human being. Those that believe they can are lying to themselves. And control by fear is the very least effective long term...oh, it seems to work, but all it does is create less communication and more sneakiness.
My mother talked very openly about sex, to a point. She also said that she hoped we would wait for marriage to begin a sexual relationship but if we didn't, she hoped we would use birth control. Knowing how they felt about other topics made us QUITE sure there was no way in hell we could admit we were having sex to them. They shut down effective communication quite well, and yet believed their kids could talk to them about anything. PPPFFFTTT! Yeah, right.
I had sex with two different partners in High school, both of whom I cared deeply for. I was pregnant with Trevor when dh and I got married (I was 20) and never told them until we had moved far away and the wedding was long over. Sad. That's what happens when parents are not calm and contemplative and non-reactionary over their children's behavior.
The fact that someone is using the term "rebellious" tells me a lot about parenting style. My children don't need to "rebel", they do need to be themselves though. If I'm not setting up our lives to where I'm being their adversary, or trying to control them, what is there to rebel against? They speak their minds, sometimes we disagree, but as far as extreme behavior...why? Why would they need to do something extreme? And I don't see sex as extreme, I see certain behaviors as extreme.
In medieval times, in certain cultures, 14y.o. girls were getting married. THere are cultures today in which it is common for teen girls to get married, have sex and have babies. So is it truly extreme and dangerous for teens to have sex? Or is it partly culture, partly religion that views this as extreme? I think healthy attitudes towards sex and a good heap of self confidence are more important than WHEN sex begins.
Ren
We can guide, we can mentor, we can advise and assist and model....in the end we do not, can not control another human being. Those that believe they can are lying to themselves. And control by fear is the very least effective long term...oh, it seems to work, but all it does is create less communication and more sneakiness.
My mother talked very openly about sex, to a point. She also said that she hoped we would wait for marriage to begin a sexual relationship but if we didn't, she hoped we would use birth control. Knowing how they felt about other topics made us QUITE sure there was no way in hell we could admit we were having sex to them. They shut down effective communication quite well, and yet believed their kids could talk to them about anything. PPPFFFTTT! Yeah, right.
I had sex with two different partners in High school, both of whom I cared deeply for. I was pregnant with Trevor when dh and I got married (I was 20) and never told them until we had moved far away and the wedding was long over. Sad. That's what happens when parents are not calm and contemplative and non-reactionary over their children's behavior.
The fact that someone is using the term "rebellious" tells me a lot about parenting style. My children don't need to "rebel", they do need to be themselves though. If I'm not setting up our lives to where I'm being their adversary, or trying to control them, what is there to rebel against? They speak their minds, sometimes we disagree, but as far as extreme behavior...why? Why would they need to do something extreme? And I don't see sex as extreme, I see certain behaviors as extreme.
In medieval times, in certain cultures, 14y.o. girls were getting married. THere are cultures today in which it is common for teen girls to get married, have sex and have babies. So is it truly extreme and dangerous for teens to have sex? Or is it partly culture, partly religion that views this as extreme? I think healthy attitudes towards sex and a good heap of self confidence are more important than WHEN sex begins.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/9/03 3:01:30 PM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< So is it truly extreme and dangerous for teens to have sex? Or is it
partly culture, partly religion that views this as extreme? >>
I think those are legitimate questions for people to consider on their own
(meaning I'm not asking for the answers from people <g>). I've heard a whole
range of beliefs, and I think everyone here is aware there's a whole range.
So given that, maybe we're asking the wrong questions, or not turning our
object/idea around to see it from enough different angles.
Getting married can be dangerous.
Getting married can be more "extreme" a behavior than having pre-marital sex.
My dad was married four times, basically because he wouldn't have sex outside
of marriage. Some people (himself included) considered that more moral than
the four-year relationship I was in from 17 to 20, because I didn't get
married. That relationship lasted longer than two of my dad's marriages. (And we
stayed in contact for several years, considering getting back together. Then
after almost 20 years of loss of contact, he called me last year and so my
follow-up was better than my dad's too.)
There are violent spouses, dishonest ones, gold-digging spouses, murderous
spouses. Dangerous, getting married. You could end up with children who are
half made of the genetic material of someone who is dishonest and violent. I
think that has happened WAY more times than people have contracted a deadly
disease from sex.
Sandra
<< So is it truly extreme and dangerous for teens to have sex? Or is it
partly culture, partly religion that views this as extreme? >>
I think those are legitimate questions for people to consider on their own
(meaning I'm not asking for the answers from people <g>). I've heard a whole
range of beliefs, and I think everyone here is aware there's a whole range.
So given that, maybe we're asking the wrong questions, or not turning our
object/idea around to see it from enough different angles.
Getting married can be dangerous.
Getting married can be more "extreme" a behavior than having pre-marital sex.
My dad was married four times, basically because he wouldn't have sex outside
of marriage. Some people (himself included) considered that more moral than
the four-year relationship I was in from 17 to 20, because I didn't get
married. That relationship lasted longer than two of my dad's marriages. (And we
stayed in contact for several years, considering getting back together. Then
after almost 20 years of loss of contact, he called me last year and so my
follow-up was better than my dad's too.)
There are violent spouses, dishonest ones, gold-digging spouses, murderous
spouses. Dangerous, getting married. You could end up with children who are
half made of the genetic material of someone who is dishonest and violent. I
think that has happened WAY more times than people have contracted a deadly
disease from sex.
Sandra
[email protected]
> Do parents REALLY believe they can control these human beings that haveRen, your post reminded me of this Sweet Honey in the Rock song. Actually,
> been in their care? REally?
it's been humming itself in my head since this thread started.
></A>Your children are not your children
They are the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself
They come through you but they are not from you and though they are with you
They belong not to you
You can give them your love but not your thoughts
They have their own thoughts
You can house their bodies but not their souls
For their souls dwell in a place of tomorrow
Which you cannot visit not even in your dreams
You can strive to be like them
But you cannot make them just like you
Strive to be like them
But you cannot make them just like you
(On Children, Performed by Sweet Honey and the Rock, Lyrics by Kahlil Gibran
Music by Ysaye M. Barnwell)
Elizabeth in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> I've lived through and beyond that set of beliefs. Yes, maybe I'mgoing to
> hell. I very seriously don't think so. Those who want to think Iam are
> probably not going to do this list a whole lot of good.I'm going through some questioning of some of my Christian beliefs,
>
> I could be wrong about that too.
>
> Sandra
and one thing that bothers me is the fear. I hate making decisions
based on fear, but the fear is still there. Not so much fear for
myself ('Cause I was raised with the "once saved always saved"
belief, but for my kids. I SO want to do everything right for them
and what if through my questioning and doubting I make a wrong choice
that ends up with me not leading them toward a decision that ends
them up in hell.
Sheila