J. Stauffer

<<I wouldn't rely on the DaVinci Code for historical data>>

Nor would I. I stated that it was fiction and a good starting point if one
is interested in researching this kind of thing. I was raised Christian and
had never even considered some of the things the book brought up, so I
researched them on the internet.

Actually, there are quite a few historians who do believe that the Christian
festivals are based on the Pagan festivals, not just the DaVinci author. In
fact, I watched a documentary on Christianity on the Discovery chanel not
too long ago, within the last year, that went into it in depth. I believe
that it is fairly widely believed that Constantine usurped the Pagan
holidays with the Christian overlay when he decided everyone needed to be
Christian. Of course, I believe that he was Pagan until his deathbed, but
he used Christianity as a ruse to cement his power.

Probably one of those things with competing theories.

Julie S.

J. Stauffer

<<The author claims that early Christians did not consider the Lord to be
God>>

It is my understanding from my Bible school days that Jesus wasn't
considered God by all. The council of Nicea voted on it. Is that not
correct?

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:04 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4163



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: HMSL2@...
2. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: SandraDodd@...
3. Re: Amy /taking the plunge
From: SandraDodd@...
4. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: Dnowens@...
5. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: SandraDodd@...
6. Halloween
From: Halo5964@...
7. Re: on candy and other limits
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
8. Re: Digest Number 4161
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
9. Re: tracts
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
10. Re: on candy and other limits
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
11. RE: movies
From: "cmkerin" <cmkerin@...>
12. Re: tracts
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
13. how have unschoolers fared after growing up?
From: "moonwindstarsky" <moonwindstarsky@...>
14. homeschooled kids--call for writings
From: SandraDodd@...
15. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: CelticFrau@...
16. Re: math article
From: SandraDodd@...
17. Re: Re: tracts
From: SandraDodd@...
18. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: SandraDodd@...
19. Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Learning Co-ops
From: "Penne & Buddies" <crrbuddy@...>
20. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
From: SandraDodd@...
21. Re: taking the plunge
From: SandraDodd@...
22. Re: taking the plunge
From: Scott Bieser <sbieser@...>
23. Re: Halloween
From: SandraDodd@...
24. Re: Re: Digest Number 4161
From: SandraDodd@...
25. Re: Re: tracts
From: SandraDodd@...


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:26:41 EST
From: HMSL2@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits

Lets remember its not just candy. Candy is only part of it.
I know when I was little my step father would freak over the use of A-1
sauce
on his expensive steak or the amount of ketchup used.

In our home my sons big thing was soda. Why? Cuz my husband used to nag him
about how fast he drank it and tell him that when it was gone that was it.
It
wasn't the last time I bought it but my son drank it like it was.
Over several months I pointed out to my husband that he uses a lot creamer,
Pepsi and requires special peanut butter and only Jam plus others. I told
him
that it was fine with me but that it wasn't right if the rest of us use
generic
or are not allowed to purchase special stuff at all. I told him that our son
is home and not limited on the soda amounts. That when he (my husband) was
home on the weekends he often drank a 2 liter a day and that when he is at
work
his breaks are limited so that was the difference.

We now buy 2-2 liters a week for Dustin rather than 1 and as I sit here they
are both unopened and purchased last Thursday.

Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:35:56 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits


In a message dated 11/5/03 11:23:06 AM, pennacres@... writes:

<< I have a feeling that if people try the "full candy bowl" as an
"experiment " and the kids pick up on the idea that this is just a temporary
thing- the
-"eat it now or it will be gone again" process might kick in and no one will
have any idea if it is possible for their family -not the parents and
certainly not the kids. >>

I think that's true of unschooling and of video game playing and such too.
If the attitude of the parent is bristly suspicious hostility and an honest
HOPE that their "experiment" fails so that they can be proven "right," it
won't
work.

Kids who are told "We'll try unschooling for a month or two to see how it
works" will have parents who say "We used to unschool, and my kids never
showed
any burning interest, never started any big projects, and didn't do any
academic work."

A temporary offer of freedom in a life of limits won't be handled calmly and
maturely. It's smarter to treat it with the wild abandon it requires, if
that
door is closing soon.

Sandra


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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:54:44 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Amy /taking the plunge


In a message dated 11/5/03 8:25:28 AM, jcurtielectric@... writes:

<< I still tell the school oh yeah he is reading and doing math

just to shut them up - >>

Why are you dealing with a school?

I'd try to get away from that if you can.

Sandra


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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:53:50 EST
From: Dnowens@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits

In a message dated 11/5/03 01:21:31 PM Central Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
I also thought about something else. What if you get say, M&M's and
everyone
goes nuts for them, then some hard candy, and it sits for a long time, but
you
get something else good again and everyone devours it again? Would it be
best to get lots of different kinds?

BTW, I went to WAlmart to get leftover Halloween candy and it was ALL
GONE!!!
I'll pick some up at the bulk grocery store instead.

Nancy B. in WV
############

Lets think of this in an economical way. IF you only get candy that no one
likes and it sits there, then what a waste of money, but the experiment
worked.
Right? IF you get candy that everyone likes and they eat it all up, which
they
will, at least for a few days or weeks, then the experiment failed. Right?
Oh
wait! That is only two doors! I choose the third, get candy everyone likes,
they eat it all right off, you keep the bowl filled, they start to realize
their favorite(s) will always be available, gradually the bowl stays full
most of
the time and the experiment works. <g>
~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:06:02 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits


In a message dated 11/4/03 9:09:26 PM, pamhartley@... writes:

<<

"If I have candy, I will eat it all at one sitting" is one of those lies

we tell ourselves, and I think goes along the same lines of "he

would watch TV all day if I let him. It's genetics." >>

I have a collection:

http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet

It's people's primary defense against freedom and the idea of "strewing."

*But if I let him [whatever] he will [whatever] all day and never stop.*

I'm now collecting actual quotes. I wish I had saved all I ever saw. It's a
phenomenon.

Sandra




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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:21:30 EST
From: Halo5964@...
Subject: Halloween

If Hallowe'en is evil, then Christians shouldn't have anything to do
with it at all. No dressing up; no begging for candy; no handing out
candy (or anything else) If it isn't, then why make up some
big "baptized" version of it? sheesh.

I agree; if Christians are going to define Halloween as evil, they shouldn't
have anything to do with it at all. Doing so "compromises" your belief
system, in my opinion. However, so many Christians believe so many
different
things, such as total immersion baptism or sprinkling of water - what about
babies
being baptized? There's a hot topic with Christians. Oh, here' s a really
hot
topic-once saved always saved??? I think God looks at our hearts and the
intent we have when we commit an act. The Bible is too conflicting in its'
statements. You can support each idea by searching through Scriptures and
taking
them out of context-sometimes even in context. I personally don't look at
Halloween as evil. To my family, it is just a fun time to dress up and go
trick-or-treating. And I even let my kids be whatever they want to be,
whether it is
a witch, a demon, a ghost-whatever. For this reason, we don't go to church
fall festivals. If you want to welcome people I don't believe you can put
stipulations on the welcome mat. At least not at church. In my own home,
I'll
decide what parameters I want. As I write that it sounds like a double
standard, but I reason it with "but I'm not God. I'm not all forgiving and
all loving
and all accepting. I'm not willing to die on the cross for the entire
world." Does that make sense, or am I making excuses?

Carol


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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:40:53 -0000
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
Subject: Re: on candy and other limits

Yeah! I have a couple of yogurt recipes/techniques that I want to try
out. I'm researching tightwaddery/simplicity in all areas of life,
and am pretty excited about it all.

blessings, HeidiC

--- In [email protected], ejcrewe@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/4/2003 8:01:20 PM Central Standard Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
>
> > I've seen this with things like yogurt. I buy it once in awhile,
and
> > when I do, it's one or two per person in the family, adn the
stuff
> > simply disappears. It's gone within 24 hours.
>
> If the budget it tight, yogurt is really easy to make and costs
pennies!
> Plus, when you add your own sweeteners, you really know what's
going in it.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:04:21 -0000
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 4161

I wouldn't rely on The DaVinci Code for historical data. He cites The
Gnostic Gospels with as much veracity as valid historical documents,
when the earliest copies of the Gnostic Gospels are dated in the 4th
century or later. The author claims that early Christians didn't
consider the Lord to be God, when early Christians most certainly DID
consider Him to be just that. I enjoyed reading The DaVinci Code, but
it isn't an historical treatise by anyone's measure, and it really
isn't all that well written.

As for all these Christian holidays coming out of Paganism...
actually, I have read a book that refutes this notion. (and can't
remember the title. It is a scholarly, historian thing. Like, a PhD
thesis or something. 500 pages + ) The Reformers wanted Christians to
make a clean break from R Catholicism; therefore, they stigmatized
various Catholic practices by saying they came from paganism.
According to this essay, archaeological data indicates that many of
these traditions didn't come into practice until after Christianity
got into an area. I'll try and remember specifics. The Yule Log was
one of the "pagan practices" debunked in the book. sheesh. can't
remember, but Christian feast days coming from paganism or not, isn't
my main point.

IF Christian traditions come from paganism, my question just takes on
more weight. Why is Halloween evil (and it IS considered evil by many
Christians. Take my word on that one. One of my best friends won't do
trick or treating, and another one completely ignores the day...) Why
is All Hallow's Eve considered evil, and to be shunned, when
Christmas and Easter are embraced? IF they come from pagan practices,
we should shun all of it. And in fact, the Reformers and their
followers DID. Christmas was illegal in Puritan America. The
book "Robinson Crusoe" was written by the Puritan Daniel Defoe. He
makes a point of ignoring Dec. 25. by having the main character mark
off days on his calendar and pointedly having Dec. 25 be just another
day, nothing special.

The Puritans tried to rename the days of the week, even. Sunday being
named after the Sun, Monday after the Moon, and so forth. Can't have
THAT.

If Hallowe'en is evil, having come from paganism, then we must follow
through on our logic and ban other Christian high holy days. But
today's Christians don't follow through. They just consider
Hallowe'en evil, but only certain parts of it, like trick or
treating. They allow the dressing up and the candy, but ban the trick
or treating...or, just put it in the church basement or parking lot.
And they never think twice about Christmas and Easter or the origin
of any other tradition.

blessings, HeidiC

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> <<then why make up some big baptized version of it at all?>>
>
> Because thats how all Christian holidays came into being.
Christmas is
> Yule, when the Pagans celebrate the coming of the Sun God, born out
of the
> Mother who was impregnated by the Horned God. Easter is the Pagan
festival
> of fertility, hence all the eggs. All Saints Day or All Hallow's
Day or Day
> of the Dead (depending on your particular flavor of Christianity)
is the
> Pagan Samhain that celebrates the lowering of the veil between this
world
> and the spirit world.
>
> A fictional book that talks about some of this kind of stuff, using
lots of
> actual facts is "The Davinci Code". Good read and will give people
a place
> to start researching if this kind of thing actually interests them.
>
> Julie S.---born again Pagan




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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:12:28 -0000
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
Subject: Re: tracts

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/5/03 7:26:21 AM, bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> << You see, Hallowe'en is an EVIL holiday. Pagan in origin, and
>
> celebratory of death >>
>
> Only that's not true.
> It's Christian in origin, only it's Catholic in origin, and so it
isn't
> "CHRISTIAN" in origin, but then very little is, by the narrowest
definition, except
> for the strident fictional history they live by.


Right! Most of the Christian traditions are CHRISTIAN in origin.
That's what the treatise that I mention elsewhere was about. Fact is,
Catholicism was outright rejected, therefore all the feast days had
to be rejected, too...Christmas, Easter, Halloween, All Saint's Day,
all of them...are celebrations of the Lord's life or the Church's
life and not pagan at all.

I'm sorry to hear about the banning of the word Medieval! and
laughing my head off...sad and funny at the same time. What idiots.
I'm sorry that there are such idiots representing Christianity out in
the world.

HeidiC


>
> Harvest festivals are just about universal, anthropologically
speaking.
> Christians harvested in agrarian societies as much as anyone else.



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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:14:48 -0000
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
Subject: Re: on candy and other limits

cool...like, really cool...popsicles...coool, gettit? LOL

actually, who was it said using a word like experiment might throw it
all off...maybe just put out the candy bowl and let it sit there,
every day, always replenished, and always give permission if they
ask, and never say no if they don't ask, and don't make a big deal of
it. That's the ticket!

HeidiC


--- In [email protected], HaHaMommy@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11-4-2003 8:23:44 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
> okay, pam. The challenge is on! I'll pick up a sack of candy
tomorrow
> and set it out...in a bowl...and keep it filled...won't we JUST see.
>
> :)
>
> HeidiC
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Just so ya know, Heidi, I'm in on the experiment too <g> I came
home from the
> grocery store last night and the kids ate 22 of the 24 popsicles I
bought...
> I got the feeling it's because I only buy them at the *big*
shopping trip at
> the beginning of the month. I'm going today to pick up the other
things I
> forgot and I'm going to buy a couple more boxes... <bg>
>
> diana,
> The wackiest widow westriver...
> "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre
minds. The
> latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly
submit to
> hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his
intelligence." ~ Albert
> Einstein
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:33:34 -0500
From: "cmkerin" <cmkerin@...>
Subject: RE: movies

Hi Amy,

Unfaithful was originally a French movie and I've been told that the ending
was much more conclusive.

The beauty of the American version is that we can pretty much decide what we
think they did and debate over it. <g>
I'm not sure that's why the American film makers did that but who knows.
;o)

HTH,
Joyce

ps. I didn't put the French version ending here because maybe some people
don't want to not know.
It'll be much easier to find info. on the movie imo knowing that it's
supposedly a classic French movie originally.


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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:17:47 -0000
From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
Subject: Re: tracts

why make up some
> big "baptized" version of it? sheesh.
> Made me think of Christianized Math books. "If Mary had 2 Bibles,
and Mark
> gave her 6 more, how many would she have in all?"
>
> Nancy B. in WV
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


did you ever see Christian Mother Goose? oh, gross. I mean, nauseous.
Absolutely disgusting.

Especially considering that Mother Goose came about in a Christian
Culture...most of the old Mother Goose rhymes, and many of the fairy
tales, are saturated in Christian morals and themes.

Blessings, HeidiC



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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:02:13 -0000
From: "moonwindstarsky" <moonwindstarsky@...>
Subject: how have unschoolers fared after growing up?

how do they go to college, or get a job?



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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:25:17 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: homeschooled kids--call for writings

If this announcement is appropriate for your unschooling site, do you have
an
email loop and/or message board that this announcement could be sent to? I’
d
like to give as many homeschoolers as possible a chance to submit their
writing/artwork for publication. I homeschooled our two boys and now live
on the
coast of New Jersey with my husband in an empty nest! I have had an idea for
a
book for years and am finally pulling it all together! The book will be a
beautiful one; I have found nothing similar in my search of books already
published. It will show everyone just how incredibly creative and talented
our
homeschoolers are. If you have any questions, please let me know. Thanks
very
much. Kate Jennings

Announcement –
My name is Kate Jennings, and I homeschooled our two sons for eight years,
not counting the years from birth to age six! I am compiling
writings
by homeschoolers that will show the world just how talented we are! I am
accepting (very) short stories, essays/paragraphs (creative or instructive),
diary
entries, poems, letters to and from family or friends, etc. Photos and
drawings that tie in with the writing would be great -- really, really
great. The
book will be a showcase of the talents that homeschooled students possess.
Anything written by students would be appropriate, whether it is
descriptive,
instructive or creative. Please keep in mind my plea for accompanying
artwork
-- photos or sketches that relate to the written submission. The
presentation
of the writing in the book is very, very important to me, and accompanying
artwork is very important to the presentation! One of my favorite
submissions
is from a boy whose family built their own home. A photo and a sketch were
included in the submission. This entry will be most effective! Please
email me
at kjennings03@...




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 15
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:03:43 EST
From: CelticFrau@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits

In a message dated 11/5/2003 4:57:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
Yeah! I have a couple of yogurt recipes/techniques that I want to try
out. I'm researching tightwaddery/simplicity in all areas of life,
and am pretty excited about it all.

blessings, HeidiC
*********************************
I'd love to know how to make yogurt. We all love it here too!

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:15:41 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: math article

In a message dated 11/5/2003 3:50:58 AM Mountain Standard Time,
devapriya108@... writes:
-=-Can you explain the 2 things below
and where to get them? I am not familiar with them.


> - two or more matching geoboards and colored rubber bands (you could
> get just
> one, but then you can't copy each other's designs)


> - Cuisenaire rods if you can get them for less than full price (or if
> you're
> rich), but don't worry about the "real" exercises
-=-

I'd say look them up at google.com so you can see pictures of them.
They're
both math tools/toys.

If you live near an educational supply store, you could go in and ask to see
theirs. I wouldn't pay full price for Cuisenaire rods, but you might find
some used or like on e-bay. Look at pictures on websites and you might
find
you've seen some before but just didn't know the name.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 17
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:27:02 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: tracts

In a message dated 11/5/2003 11:56:12 AM Mountain Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
-=-Made me think of Christianized Math books. "If Mary had 2 Bibles, and
Mark
gave her 6 more, how many would she have in all?"-=-


Here's one with more doctrinal basis. I wrote it myself, my finest *word
problem*:

Jesus has twelve apostles and a dozen donuts. How many donuts can each
apostle have?


Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:29:27 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits

In a message dated 11/5/2003 12:21:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,
CelticFrau@... writes:
-=-What if you get say, M&M's and everyone
goes nuts for them, then some hard candy, and it sits for a long time, but
you
get something else good again and everyone devours it again? Would it be
best to get lots of different kinds? -=-


Remember when Marge bought Bart a golf video game? He didn't play it much.

If you get candy they don't like, they can have all they want without
touching any but the change still won't have come.<G>

Marty just turned off a video game, as I was writing this. <bwg>
A good one.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:43:32 -0000
From: "Penne & Buddies" <crrbuddy@...>
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Learning Co-ops

--- In [email protected], Message 13200 [Yes, I
did my homework! :o]

Date: Sun Sep 17, 2000 6:06 am
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Learning Co-ops

"Cathie _" <cathie_98@h...> wrote:
<snip> Its really easy to find
> fun, interesting things to do without a lot of money or planning.
You can
> throw together great learning activities for young children. When
they get a
> little older, the co-op can do so much more that is difficult to
do without
> more structure.
>
> We have had some wonderful classes that involve speakers and field
experts
> that would be difficult to schedule. We have access to materials
that are
> available to schools, but not always to homeschoolers just because
they will
> reach more children. We have gotten grants to pay for some classes
and
> materials. We have a permanant meeting place so long term
commitments can be
> made. One of my latest thoughts is to try to get appoval to start
drivers ed
> classes at the center-in Ohio the kids have to attend a course
through
> school or a private driving school, so why not have a school
program at the
> center so we don't all have to pay $300 to the local driving
school.

We paid over $200 for an insurance-sponsored, profit-driven "driving
school" in Louisiana -- typical, conventional week's worth of wasted
time. They insisted that our son should be able to drive on the
road after six hours of instruction to some arbitrary standard (with
no other "official" road hours under his belt) -before- issuing a
learner's permit (you know, the one you get so you can learn how to
drive on the road?) and when he "failed" to meet their so-called
standard, they had the legal right (as a for-profit company offering
a state-mandated service) to require us to fork over ex-tra bucks
for ex-tra hours from their ex-pert driving instructor. What a scam!

Next time around -- No driver's ed course required in SC --
autodidacts simply pass the written test, which includes some of the
drug & alcohol awareness info, and receive a learner's permit --
then, proceed to learn to drive on the road under an adult, licensed
driver's supervision (you know, like the old days when your parents
sat by your side and took part in the process as a matter of course -
- white knuckles notwithstanding.) Common sense and a lot of love
kept them in the passenger's seat till they were confident in our
ability to steer clear of trouble. Those were the days, my friend...

Here we are in FL -- mandated Traffic Law & Substance Abuse course,
reasonable priced (under $50) and even available in a convenient
online version. Major problem -- the course content on substance
abuse is highly objectionable (nightmarish to those who have gone
through the trauma of losing loved ones to DUI) and in conflict with
our sincerely-held religious beliefs and educational philosophy.

Have contacted the HSMV and State Representatives for information on
a waiver (for the objectionable part of the course, if not all), but
no go. Our Senator's legislative assistant is still looking into
the matter... maybe. Once we exhausted the obvious legal
alternatives, we decided to check out CompuHigh's offerings and drop
a line to Pat Montgomery at Clonlara. Haven't received a response
in the past few weeks since our first inquiry, so plan to follow-up
in a week or so.

Will have to see if any of the umbrella schools/co-ops here in FL
have tackled this one already -- perhaps it's our turn to take the
wheel and formalize our relationship to the un/homeschooling
community by gearing driver's ed to individual needs.

IMHO, driving should never be tied into grades, attendance, or
anything else as a matter of privilege -- it should be recognized as
a marketable skill, and in some cases, an absolute necessity. We
want all who are able to take the initiative to gain this skill
without compromising their values or welfare in the process.

Advice & suggestions welcome & encouraged! Hasta luego, Amigos...

Vayan con Dios ~
Penne & Buddies
>
> I think it is alot easier for new homeschoolers to find the
support they
> need when you have a co-op like this too. They can jump right in
to a
> thriving community of homeschoolers instead of winging it on their
own.
>
>
> The Center that we use is quite far from us, so we often do not
get to
> participate in many of the activities that interest us. I wish we
could have
> them in every community so that more of the wonderful
opportunities were
> available to every one who want to learn for life. Not just the
hsers or
> even just the kids.
>
> Cathie
>




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 20
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:40:14 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits

Good point, Laura.
It's not about candy itself, it's about nagging and judgmentalism about
food.

My mom used to keep my cousin from having more than one glass of milk with a
meal. It was hateful. She really wanted more milk, that was all. If she
ate
all her other food she MIGHT be allowed to have more milk. But not without
her feeling nine kinds of unworthy.

People have been so mean to kids for so long that it's like the wallpaper,
like the clouds.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 21
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:41:33 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: taking the plunge

In a message dated 11/5/2003 1:38:44 PM Mountain Standard Time,
AimeeL73@... writes:
But, that doesn't happen automatically. Check out some links about
deschooling, I think Sandra has one on her page.
==================

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling


Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 22
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:53:43 -0800
From: Scott Bieser <sbieser@...>
Subject: Re: taking the plunge


>
>arcarpenter@... writes:
> > I'll take any and all words of encouragement. <g>
> >
> > Amy
> >

You're doing the right thing, even if the transition may be difficult.

I'm not sure of your situation but it might be worthwhile, during the last
couple of days at the school, for your son to collect phone numbers and
contact info for his favorite friends there. Unless distance is an issue
there's no reason to cut your son off completely from his school friends.
They can still socialize on weekends, in late afternoons, etc. as the
situation permits.


--Scott Bieser
proprietor, LibertyArtworx.com
Professional Graphics and Personal Opinions
http://www.libertyartworx.com
Buy stuff with my art on it!
http://www.cafepress.com/libartworx

----------


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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 23
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:47:48 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Halloween

In a message dated 11/5/2003 2:44:58 PM Mountain Standard Time,
Halo5964@... writes:
Oh, here' s a really hot
topic-once saved always saved???
===============

hey, I wrote about that.

http://sandradodd.com/theology

Some art is missing. Lambs. Easter lambs. I need to upload some I like
enough to look at, though. I had them linked to something that went away.

Sandra


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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 24
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:58:53 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 4161

In a message dated 11/5/2003 3:20:26 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
-=-The author claims that early Christians didn't
consider the Lord to be God, when early Christians most certainly DID
consider Him to be just that.-=-

According to what source? What's the earliest date on epistles?

Nobody has "the originals" of any of that stuff.

-=-It is a scholarly, historian thing. Like, a PhD
thesis or something. 500 pages + -=-

Why do you respect a PhD thesis (dissertation, written by someone with a
master's degree) more than the research done for a novel? I'm not defending
a
particular novel, just pointing out what is an interesting prejudice for an
unschooler to be showing here.

-=-The Puritans tried to rename the days of the week, even. Sunday being
named after the Sun, Monday after the Moon, and so forth. Can't have
THAT.-=-

Hadn't heard that! Do you have a reference?

The other weekdays are names for Norse and Roman gods--at least the Sun and
the Moon are in the Bible! <bwg>

What were the proposed replacement days?

-=-If Hallowe'en is evil, having come from paganism, then we must follow
through on our logic and ban other Christian high holy days. But
today's Christians don't follow through. -=-

We know fundamentalists who won't celebrate anything but Easter, and that
one
is only a Church-going day, no eggs, etc.

What's being discussed here as Christian holidays and pagan holidays is
dealing just with England/English/American stuff. The Catholic church has
been
really good about adapting local custom and giving it a religous overlay.
So
local observances were maintained but given Christian meanings. It happened
in
Rome and Greece, all over Europe. It's still done now. At the Pueblos on
the
northern Rio Grande they have traditional dances which have come to be
associated with Christmas and danced on Christmas eve, with the dancers
starting in
the church (or ending there). Other dances which haven't been attached to
Christian holidays start and end in the kiva.

Sandra


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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 25
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:04:11 EST
From: SandraDodd@...
Subject: Re: Re: tracts

In a message dated 11/5/2003 3:22:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
Right! Most of the Christian traditions are CHRISTIAN in origin.
That's what the treatise that I mention elsewhere was about. Fact is,
Catholicism was outright rejected, therefore all the feast days had
to be rejected, too...Christmas, Easter, Halloween, All Saint's Day,
all of them...are celebrations of the Lord's life or the Church's
life and not pagan at all.
The 'right' was aimed at something I said, and although I agree with some of
what's in the above, not all is equally true.

For one thing, All Saint's Day has little to nothing to do with Jesus.
Catholicism, yes.
Easter (the word itself) is worth looking up. Any dictionary with
etymologies or a google search for the etymology of "Easter": NOT Christian
origin.

Yes, about celebrating the resurrection.
No on "Easter" being of Christian origin. When they stuck it on that
weekend, they kept the old name (in England--I don't know what they call it
in other
languages).

Sandra


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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/5/03 9:22:37 PM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< Actually, there are quite a few historians who do believe that the
Christian

festivals are based on the Pagan festivals, >>

When there was a chance to commandeer an existing tradition they did so.
That doesn't mean things like All Saint's Day and All Hallow's Eve aren't
Christian holidays. They are. But if there was an existing tradition, they got kind
of blended together.

The eggs and bunnies stuff is sometimes used to represent Christian symbols,
when really they're from a whole separate thing originally.

Sandra

Penne & Buddies

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> <<The author claims that early Christians did not consider the
Lord to be
> God>>
>
> It is my understanding from my Bible school days that Jesus wasn't
> considered God by all. The council of Nicea voted on it. Is that
not
> correct?
>
> Julie S.

That's what we heard -- I grew up in the Methodist church with the
doctrine of the Trinity, but came across a more logical explanation
in the teachings of Christian Science (CS) about ten years ago while
doing an investigation on vaccines. Found a reference to CS in a
Mothering Magazine article. An online CS buddy always points out
that Jesus stated himself that he was -not- God ("Why callest thou
me good? There is none good, but one, that is God.") Yet, Jesus
had no qualms about acknowledging that he was the Son of God,
according to the Bible (KJV).

Mary Baker Eddy, the discoverer and founder of CS, pointed out that
Jesus was/is the highest example of the Christ, which is God. That
may be where some of the confusion came about with the Nicaean
Council's conclusion a few hundred years after Jesus' departure.
Mrs. Eddy explained that Christ was originally used as an honorary
title for Jesus, as in Jesus _the_ Christ or Christ Jesus, rather
than a synonym or "surname."

Fascinating stuff for a conventionally-raised Christian. MBE's
book, _Science & Health with Key to the Scriptures_ (S&H) is now my
all-time favorite companion to the Bible (and yes, I prefer the KJV
over the other interpretations, although they've all got their
flaws.) Not to come across as a thumper or anything, but I'm one of
those who can claim to have been healed while reading this book. A
decade's worth of suffering the heartbreak of progressively
crippling psoriasis simply began to fade away before I even noticed
it -- that was nine years ago this fall to be exact and I'm still
trying to find the answer to that (divinely natural) miracle.

I'll never believe it was a mere coincidence, although I've heard
every excuse to refute that CS is legit or this particular disease
was incurable as the doctors all said. It was certainly a miserable
burden before I found CS, so I gotta give credit where credit's
due. The last chapter of S&H is filled with testimonies from others
who were healed in the same way, and according to the record (over
125 years since S&H was first published,) CS has been known to cure
every known disease on the planet.

The fact that I can type on this keyboard (when I could barely hold
a pencil or dress myself) is living proof to me that there is always
hope, with a whole lotta faith (understanding, not blind) and love
in the mix. There's a lot of mind over matter lit out there, but
S&H is the only one that I've found which wholly gives the power to
heal to the one Mind, God. Mrs. Eddy is also the only one whom
we've found to uphold John's statement that "God is Love" (not
subject to human whims, weaknesses, or temper tantrums, but only
found to be practicing parental perfection, i.e. Love.) If that's
not Taking Children Seriously, nothing is!

After nearly ten years, I'm still hooked on CS if you can't tell! I
love to hear other's "reason for the hope within," especially with
all the frightening mess going on in the world. This is where CS
has its finest hour -- allaying fears of all magnitudes -- and
that's what heals not only individual physical challenges, but
spiritual and moral dis-ease on a universal basis.

It really doesn't matter whether Halloween is classified as pagan or
Christian, hacker or terrorist fodder -- it's basically a fright
night. Some think that's a good/holy/fun thing, depending on their
basic beliefs. Personally blood and gore, etc., grosses me out,
faked or otherwise, and the kids feel the same way -- so we try to
avoid it as much as possible. The non-stop graphic advertisements
convinced us to turn off the tube years ago. At least we have a
little more control over this medium, but it's becoming a real toss-
up with all the invasive pop-ups.

Think of this lengthy three-in-one post as my way of saying we've
missed the unschooling crowd and Sandra Dodd's words of wisdom -- so
glad to have caught up with everybuddy on the forum. Thanks for
posting my message as a "newbie" unschooling veteran (is that an
oxymoron? :o) We're still looking through the responses to the
driver's dilemma. If only Yahoo! hadn't removed the "Reply to
Message#" reference link at the bottom of the posts -- makes it
tough to review the history of a topic.

I finally figured out that the Digests were the source of many
replies, so decided the search engine was my best bet (thank
goodness Yahoo! finally added this feature!) Guess our son will
feel better about moving back to FL once he hears about the new law
in SC (or not!) He has been lamenting that we left just a few months
before he turned fifteen since his birthday in September. Still it
would've taken another year to get a full-fledged license (albeit
restricted) that would transfer over.

Heard from the Senator's assistant after posting -- typical "It's
the law, conform or get over it" response, but she said she'd pass
our concerns along to the ever-so-busy legislators. Is Pat
Montgomery out of the country? I expected to hear from someone at
Clonlara by now. Back to the drawing/message board and the search
for umbrellas, coops, etc., to sponsor an independent study driver's
course tailored to meet both our needs and the state's
requirements. Until later, Amigos...

Vayan con Dios ~
Penne & the folks at the ARD :)(: Family CO-OP

Fetteroll

on 11/6/03 11:12 PM, Penne & Buddies at crrbuddy@... wrote:

> It really doesn't matter whether Halloween is classified as pagan or
> Christian, hacker or terrorist fodder

It matters to the people who feel the need to classify it or discuss it!

> -- it's basically a fright night.

The frightening and gross stuff is hard to avoid. But I always chose to
interpret it as a dress up night. My daughter's never chosen to be anything
frightening. Usually favorite imaginary or TV characters. Though she did
ponder going as a Teletubby and said that would be *really* frightening ;-)

> I
> love to hear other's "reason for the hope within," especially with
> all the frightening mess going on in the world.

Sometimes it comes up in the context of trusting children. But this list
isn't the best place for it since it wouldn't be fair to those who signed up
to discuss unschooling.

Joyce

pam sorooshian

On Nov 6, 2003, at 8:12 PM, Penne & Buddies wrote:

> I finally figured out that the Digests were the source of many
> replies, so decided the search engine was my best bet (thank
> goodness Yahoo! finally added this feature!)

Its not a very good search engine, though.

IF you're someone who likes to go back and search the archives - you
might want to save all the posts in your own mail program and use its
search engine instead. Its a lot - but these days people often have
huge storage capacity and email doesn't take up much space.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Nov 7, 2003, at 3:13 AM, Fetteroll wrote:

>
>> -- it's basically a fright night.
>
> The frightening and gross stuff is hard to avoid. But I always chose to
> interpret it as a dress up night. My daughter's never chosen to be
> anything
> frightening. Usually favorite imaginary or TV characters. Though she
> did
> ponder going as a Teletubby and said that would be *really*
> frightening ;-)

My 12 yo daughter wore her western horse riding show outfit. Because
the jacket is bright red and spanish style, we joked that she could say
she was a suicidal matador. She made a costume for her friend - he
carried an umbrella she'd covered with blue cloth and glued on white
batting to look like clouds and she'd tied strips of some glistening
light shimmery cloth from the umbrella spokes - on the inside of the
umbrella - so it looked like it was raining on him. He wore a
rainjacket. For us, Halloween is costume creativity night <G>. I
remember one year when all my girls were little - I put their gold
sweatpants and gold sweatshirts on them and used brown tape to make
stripes all over them - painted their faces with some stripes - they
were tigers. We never have bought a costume. Often they make up a
number of costumes - just out of our dress-up supplies - we also go to
thrift stores. They've always worn costumes a lot of the time - but
Halloween is fun because everybody ELSE is wearing costumes then, too.

And - being a little scared when you know it is all pretend and
you're really safe - there is something appealing about that and I'm
inclined to think there is something beneficial in it.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

zenmomma2kids

>>Though she did ponder going as a Teletubby and said that would be
*really* frightening ;-)>>

Conor was going to dress up as George W. Bush for the same reason.

Life is good.
~Mary

Penne & Buddies

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 11/6/03 11:12 PM, Penne & Buddies at crrbuddy@y... wrote:
>
> > It really doesn't matter whether Halloween is classified as
pagan or
> > Christian, hacker or terrorist fodder
>
> It matters to the people who feel the need to classify it or
discuss it!
>
> > -- it's basically a fright night.
>
> The frightening and gross stuff is hard to avoid. But I always
chose to
> interpret it as a dress up night. My daughter's never chosen to be
anything
> frightening. Usually favorite imaginary or TV characters. Though
she did
> ponder going as a Teletubby and said that would be *really*
frightening ;-)

[PDA] LOL ~ Our kids feel the same way about the Teletubbies
*shudder* As for Bush, it's still the Gore that really gets to
us :o)
>
> > I
> > love to hear other's "reason for the hope within," especially
with
> > all the frightening mess going on in the world.
>
> Sometimes it comes up in the context of trusting children. But
this list
> isn't the best place for it since it wouldn't be fair to those who
signed up
> to discuss unschooling.
>
> Joyce

[PDA] Whoops! Didn't mean for it to come across that way -- but
using a religious quote in any context frightens people more often
than a ghost story around the campfire. Although my own "hope" is
based in Christian Science (CS), I was thinking more along the lines
of the description of the list on Unschooling.com, which is all-
inclusive of the worldwide range of conversation we shared way back
on HEM's first e-mail list.

I think it was Earl Gary Stevens who first started mapping out the
participants -- we had between 50 and 200 max on the listserv back
then, if I recall correctly, from all points of the States and
around the globe. We were awestruck by the magnitude of the
Internet and its capabilities for networking back then -- little did
we know!

***Unschooling.com's e-mail list, a hotbed of conversation. No set
topics, pretty much anything related to unschooling goes- and we all
know that means just about everything! Another good way to get to
know other people, and share opinions and information about all
sorts of things.***

And well do we understand that the "reason for the hope within"
varies just as widely as the locales of the unschooling crowd -- in
fact, that's how we first found out about Taking Children Seriously
and other wonderful ways of trusting each other. One of the best
things we learned about CS is that so-called age and status are
basically irrelevant -- it's more about stages of growth, not
physical but spiritual (which again is individual according to
belief,) and in all fairness -- autodidacts of all ages/stages can
and should be trusted to direct their own education in the world and
reason with confidence on relevant topics without fear of judgment
or censorship.

Simply stated, thanks for trusting us enough to pass the post along
to the group despite "off-topic" appearances and offering us a
chance to clarify. I searched the forum from top to bottom looking
for info on driver's ed courses and the conversation sounded so
openly familiar that I jumped in as if I'd never left the old
un/homeschooling list (which has branched off into a million
directions now.)

We hope to continue to learn from each other in the same spirit,
which includes fearlessness in speaking on subjects that aren't
always understood for what they're worth to unschooling -- and no
matter how it's defined, "that means just about everything!" has
value and potential in this world of ours :o)

It's great to be here amongst open-minded buddies ~
Vayan con Dios, Amigos :)(: Penne & Buddies

Penne & Buddies

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
> On Nov 7, 2003, at 3:13 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
>
> >
> >> -- it's basically a fright night.
> >
> > The frightening and gross stuff is hard to avoid. But I always
chose to
> > interpret it as a dress up night. My daughter's never chosen to
be
> > anything
> > frightening. Usually favorite imaginary or TV characters. Though
she
> > did
> > ponder going as a Teletubby and said that would be *really*
> > frightening ;-)
>
> My 12 yo daughter wore her western horse riding show outfit.
Because
> the jacket is bright red and spanish style, we joked that she
could say
> she was a suicidal matador. She made a costume for her friend - he
> carried an umbrella she'd covered with blue cloth and glued on
white
> batting to look like clouds and she'd tied strips of some
glistening
> light shimmery cloth from the umbrella spokes - on the inside of
the
> umbrella - so it looked like it was raining on him. He wore a
> rainjacket. For us, Halloween is costume creativity night <G>. I
> remember one year when all my girls were little - I put their gold
> sweatpants and gold sweatshirts on them and used brown tape to
make
> stripes all over them - painted their faces with some stripes -
they
> were tigers. We never have bought a costume. Often they make up a
> number of costumes - just out of our dress-up supplies - we also
go to
> thrift stores. They've always worn costumes a lot of the time -
but
> Halloween is fun because everybody ELSE is wearing costumes then,
too.
>
> And - being a little scared when you know it is all pretend and
> you're really safe - there is something appealing about that and
I'm
> inclined to think there is something beneficial in it.
>
> -pam

[PDA] I was a theatre and dance major, so I can appreciate the
benefits of dressing up and costumes, but not necessarily Halloween
scares. Our kids create impromptu and elaborate costumes non-stop
around here, but the stuff they run into one the tele-tube, in the
night, the mall or even the grocery store (the management and clerks
have both been known to go overboard with the gorey masks and
makeup) on Halloween and long beforehand gives 'em the heebie-
jeebies. A few years back two of our neighbors decorated their
yards -- one with a guillotine complete with the trimmings and one
with a monster mask.

Every time we went out to the van to run errands, the displays
caught the eye -- you had to make a real effort to avoid this scene
for an entire month. Forget playing out in the front yard and the
window/shelf displays everywhere accost them, too. Both of these
families had young daughters (under six) whose elementary school bus
rode by those yard decorations every day, and one of them actually
told us her mother had refused to take her trick or treating that
year because she'd been disturbed all night dealing with nightmares
after the last fright fest.

I guess that sounds a little sensitive and paranoid, but I never
liked that kind of thing when I was a kid growing up in the sixties,
either, and still don't. Scariest thing I remember was the older
teenagers who refused to grow up and cut in on our scene with a bad
hippy costume and a smiley face button :o) One of the aliens on a
really lame episode of Star Trek still runs through my mind, too.
We dressed up as "cute" witches and ghosts, not gorey goblins from
another galaxy and it was considered tacky to go to somebody else's
neighborhood to trick or treat unless you lived out in the boonies.
In that case, you hooked up with a school friend _and_ their parents.

Anyway, there's always Mardi Gras (which has more goodies but can
get off the wall) and Highland Games/Caleidh, Civil War (Re-
enactment-toddlers don't like seeing people get shot and
maimed)/Antebellum Balls and the Society for Creative Anachronism,
to name a few other "costume parties" out there which can substitute
for Halloween if need be. The possibilities are endless... not to
mention that we live in the land of make-believe here in central
Florida, so there's never a lack of opportunity in that department.

Enjoyed the thread ... gotta go help my son finish his new kilt (we
got some genuine Clan Davidson tartan for his birthday) before the
Games and holiday parties. Our daughter picked up a pattern for
Scarlett O'Hara's barbeque dress when she and her sister
participated in the Junior Belle program -- strolling the grounds in
antebellum gowns for a couple of hours at Cypress Gardens -- before
they closed the park down for lack of funds. Hopefully, the Gardens
will reopen soon!

Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~