J. Stauffer

<<The only thing I've ever seen described as a tract>>

What we used to give out (not at Halloween) was a small booklet type thing
like a comic book. One strip I remember from 30years ago was a man being
attacked by an intruder and dying. He went to Hell with all sorts of demons
reaching for him. Then they show the scenario again but when attacked the
man called out to Jesus. He still died but went smiling into the "light".

Yuck.

I get mad about this stuff. My older kids (9 and 12 at the time) were with
me at a stock show in Fort Worth. We were unloading our animals and stuff,
making trips in and out of the show barn. People always stop and ask
questions about the animals (it is kind of the tacit agreement, like leaving
your light on during Halloween) and the kids readily and happily answer
them.

An older couple stopped and was talking to the kids about the goats etc. and
I went to get another load. When I came back, this couple was reading from
the Bible to the kids and praying over them. It pissed me off and I gently
sent them on their way. Yuck!!

Julie S.

J. Stauffer

<<then why make up some big baptized version of it at all?>>

Because thats how all Christian holidays came into being. Christmas is
Yule, when the Pagans celebrate the coming of the Sun God, born out of the
Mother who was impregnated by the Horned God. Easter is the Pagan festival
of fertility, hence all the eggs. All Saints Day or All Hallow's Day or Day
of the Dead (depending on your particular flavor of Christianity) is the
Pagan Samhain that celebrates the lowering of the veil between this world
and the spirit world.

A fictional book that talks about some of this kind of stuff, using lots of
actual facts is "The Davinci Code". Good read and will give people a place
to start researching if this kind of thing actually interests them.

Julie S.---born again Pagan
----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:24 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4161


>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 25 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: tracts
> From: TeresaBnNC@...
> 2. Re: Digest Number 4156
> From: LauraBourdo@...
> 3. Re: Digest Number 4160
> From: LauraBourdo@...
> 4. Speaking of tracts
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> 5. taking the plunge
> From: "arcarpenter2003" <arcarpenter@...>
> 6. Re: Sandra question about an article you wrote
> From: "The Scanlons" <scanlon36@...>
> 7. math article
> From: Devapriya <devapriya108@...>
> 8. Educational Experience
> From: "Sharon Traylor" <littlenanny57@...>
> 9. Re: Re: tracts
> From: TeresaBnNC@...
> 10. Re: taking the plunge
> From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@...>
> 11. Re: Re: re:questions/how much is too much?
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 12. Re: tracts
> From: CelticFrau@...
> 13. Re: Re: tracts
> From: tuckervill2@...
> 14. Re: Sandra question about an article you wrote
> From: Genant2@...
> 15. Re: Re: tracts
> From: tuckervill2@...
> 16. Re: Re: tracts
> From: Genant2@...
> 17. tracts
> From: Halo5964@...
> 18. tracts
> From: Halo5964@...
> 19. Re: Sandra question about an article you wrote
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> 20. Re: tracts
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> 21. Re: on candy and other limits
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> 22. Re: taking the plunge
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> 23. Re: Re: on candy and other limits
> From: "Lillian Haas" <lhaas@...>
> 24. Re: tracts
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> 25. Re: Re: taking the plunge
> From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:43:14 EST
> From: TeresaBnNC@...
> Subject: Re: tracts
>
> In a message dated 11/4/03 1:21:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
> Teresa sent me a link to the chick tract site.
> OH MY GOSH!!
>
> It's both frightening and funny.
> >>>
> Yeah, those Chick tracts are .. well. like I said "notorious" .. They are
> downright absurd.. so much so, that is it funny.. But, not really funny
when you
> think about the propaganda that they spread. I don't know how many of
them
> that Landon has collected, actually, he is the one that told me (showed
me)
> about them..
>
> Teresa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 01:43:03 EST
> From: LauraBourdo@...
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 4156
>
> In a message dated 11/4/03 10:16:21 AM Central Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
>
> > But TV is the tool people use to achieve that state, not the cause of
it.
> > Unschooled kids don't need to watch TV to tune out the noise of the day.
And
> > if they do need that, then there's something wrong in the unschooling
> > environment that needs fixed! Unschooled kids watch TV because they want
to
> > pay attention to a particular show not because they want to tune
something
> > out.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> >
>
> Thank you, Joyce!
>
> I was getting a little worried <g> with this thread, because 15 yo ds
watches
> quite a bit of TV, really. Someone said the other day that tuning out is
a
> sign of a problem (and you repeated it here). That is what worried me.
Back
> when he was in school, he used the TV to tune out on a disturbingly
regular
> basis. Now, after 2 years at home, he's started watching it more again.
>
> But I'm looking at what he's watching, and it's *stimulating* TV, for the
> most part. Not *tuning out* TV. There really is a difference. He's
getting a
> lot of history, physics, mechanical engineering, biology, etc. with his TV
> time. And some pure entertainment, and I don't see anything wrong with
that,
> either. Science fiction shows and anime.
>
> Laura B.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 02:09:17 EST
> From: LauraBourdo@...
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 4160
>
> In a message dated 11/4/03 11:48:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
>
> > On Nov 4, 2003, at 5:42 PM, Heidi wrote:
> > >
> > > > I like the idea of an endless candy bowl, but our budget right
> > now is
> > > > VERY tight, and food is a big cut-back for us. Maybe I could do
> > it,
> > > > if I grabbed a ton of post-Halloween candy. hmmm, as much and more
> > > > than they could possibly want...
> >
> >
>
> Try the dollar stores. I got all my Halloween (and post-Halloween ;-)
candy
> there for next to nuthin'. And couldn't believe the selection.
>
> Laura B.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:43:01 -0800
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> Subject: Speaking of tracts
>
> I have always wanted to hand them out. Not to kids who come to our
> house, but to homes who hand out Nestle candy. Just a small paper that
> says "buying Nestle products, including candy, contributes significantly
> to the death of millions of babies world wide every year. Please go to
> http://www.wearsthebaby.com/articles/nestle.html or
> http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html for more information.
>
> I've never done it, simply because october seems so busy that I don't
> have time, but one day I'll do it.
>
> Joylyn
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:13:17 -0000
> From: "arcarpenter2003" <arcarpenter@...>
> Subject: taking the plunge
>
> Well, today was the day. I called Fisher's school principal and told
> him we would be homeschooling, starting next week. He's only got two
> half-days of school left, since this is parent-teacher conference week
> -- a chance to say good-bye.
>
> Now that the wheels are in motion, I'm surprised at how many fears are
> surfacing for me. I thought I felt very sure of this. When we made
> the decision to do it *now*, Fisher was feeling overscheduled and very
> much wanted to do it. Now his thoughts are turning to his nice
> teachers and the things about school that he does like (recess, gym,
> music <g>), and the fact that people there like him. I know in the
> long run this is the right thing, but the transition is feeling a
> little dicey.
>
> I'll take any and all words of encouragement. <g>
>
> Amy
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:55:31 -0000
> From: "The Scanlons" <scanlon36@...>
> Subject: Re: Sandra question about an article you wrote
>
> Kathy,
> I read in a book called One to One about homework help. This was advice
for
> parents who couldn't pull their kids out of school just yet (or ever
because
> of custody agreements/disagreements or whathaveyou). The author
recommends
> actually *doing* the homework for the child! What a brilliant idea.
Doing
> the homework went along with making sure that your child understands that
> you don't think there's something wrong with him because he can't read or
do
> the math. What a great way to minimize the trauma of early schooling for
> the child who just isn't ready.
>
> Not your situation, but your email made me think of it.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:24:24 -0800
> From: Devapriya <devapriya108@...>
> Subject: math article
>
>
> Sandra, this is a great article! Can you explain the 2 things below
> and where to get them? I am not familiar with them.
>
>
> > - two or more matching geoboards and colored rubber bands (you could
> > get just
> > one, but then you can't copy each other's designs)
>
>
> > - Cuisenaire rods if you can get them for less than full price (or if
> > you're
> > rich), but don't worry about the "real" exercises
> >
> > Thanks,
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 05:06:46 -0000
> From: "Sharon Traylor" <littlenanny57@...>
> Subject: Educational Experience
>
> My 10 year old son and I are emberking on an educational experience.
> As part of his homeschool study he is creating a website and
> discussion group. He and I invite you and your children to take
> part in this experience. You may join at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aristotleacademy_group/
>
> Visit his "under construction" website at:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/aristotleacademy/aristotleacademy.html
>
> Thanks,
> Sharon T
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:51:30 EST
> From: TeresaBnNC@...
> Subject: Re: Re: tracts
>
> In a message dated 11/4/03 6:35:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> tuckervill2@... writes:
> Oh what a ridiculous idea. Really. Unless you live in Canada and it's 40
> below on Halloween or something like that.
> >>>
>
> Or you live out in the country, sometimes miles between each house.... NOT
> walking distance.. and there is no sidewalk, no street lights... Not
everyone
> lives in the city or in suburbia. Trunk or treat is a lifesaver out
here.. I
> can't count how many skinned knees, twisted ankles, ripped costumes, scary
dog
> encounters.etc .. we have had on Halloween.. Getting in and out of the
car..
> running across big lawns, dropping your candy, all some common
> pain-in-the-ass things about door to door trick or treating in the
boondocks. In town,
> and in housing developments, folks do still go door to door, but there are
> churches, rec centers, malls, and lots of other places that offer easier
options
> to country living trick or treating.
>
> Teresa
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:36:03 +0800
> From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@...>
> Subject: Re: taking the plunge
>
> Amy,
>
> Think of it like diving into a swimming pool. You dread the initial plunge
> but once you're in the water, it's exactly where you want to be!
>
> Julie, in the water and loving it!!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "arcarpenter2003" <arcarpenter@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 5:13 PM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] taking the plunge
>
>
> > Well, today was the day. I called Fisher's school principal and told
> > him we would be homeschooling, starting next week. He's only got two
> > half-days of school left, since this is parent-teacher conference week
> > -- a chance to say good-bye.
> >
> > Now that the wheels are in motion, I'm surprised at how many fears are
> > surfacing for me. I thought I felt very sure of this. When we made
> > the decision to do it *now*, Fisher was feeling overscheduled and very
> > much wanted to do it. Now his thoughts are turning to his nice
> > teachers and the things about school that he does like (recess, gym,
> > music <g>), and the fact that people there like him. I know in the
> > long run this is the right thing, but the transition is feeling a
> > little dicey.
> >
> > I'll take any and all words of encouragement. <g>
> >
> > Amy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 06:47:06 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: re:questions/how much is too much?
>
> on 11/4/03 5:54 PM, Mary at mummy124@... wrote:
>
> > The automatic cleaning boxes
> > are great.
>
> Yes! Our cats needed me to be more diligent than I was and I happened to
> find one at the swap area of the dump. (It was used but clean and back in
> the box! ;-) Maybe it was tried by the people who had it and their cats
ran
> in terror. But our cats love it. They love to watch it scooping. Love the
> fact that it's always clean. And, yes, the more expensive clumping is
better
> than cheap clumping, even if the cheap says "premium" cat litter.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:41:04 EST
> From: CelticFrau@...
> Subject: Re: tracts
>
> In a message dated 11/5/2003 1:27:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> TeresaBnNC@... writes:
> Yeah, those Chick tracts are .. well. like I said "notorious" .. They are
> downright absurd.. so much so, that is it funny.. But, not really funny
when
> you
> think about the propaganda that they spread.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> As discerning adults, we look at them and think "how lame!" But for a
young
> pre-teen who may have no concept of Church history, other religion's
beliefs,
> they would appear to be "spreading the gospel" and exposing truths. I
know as
> a pre-teen (during the big "I Found It" born again movement in the 70's) I
> was shocked by the tracts and believed what they said. After all, it's
printed
> right there, and the youth minister (whom we KNOW we can trust) GAVE it to
> me...it has to be true! I think they spread proselytism and hate.
>
> Nancy B. in WV
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:52:36 EST
> From: tuckervill2@...
> Subject: Re: Re: tracts
>
> In a message dated 11/4/2003 8:58:58 PM Central Standard Time,
> Genant2@... writes:
> I think the idea started when church members wanted a safer environment
for
> their children to trick or treat in. It was originally church members
with
> candy for other church members. That way you know who your children are
> getting
> candy from and they are in the church parking lot. It has grown over the
> years to include anyone who is comfortable with their kids trick or
treating
> with
> those church members.
>
>
> Fear.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:12:14 EST
> From: Genant2@...
> Subject: Re: Sandra question about an article you wrote
>
> In a message dated 11/5/03 5:50:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> scanlon36@... writes:
>
> > The author recommends
> > actually *doing* the homework for the child!
>
> I know a mom that does this. Teresa you should share on this.
> Pam G
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:15:22 EST
> From: tuckervill2@...
> Subject: Re: Re: tracts
>
> In a message dated 11/5/2003 5:00:16 AM Central Standard Time,
> TeresaBnNC@... writes:
> Or you live out in the country, sometimes miles between each house.... NOT
> walking distance.. and there is no sidewalk, no street lights...
> ~~~~~~
>
> That's where I live. In the middle of 10 acres surrounded by cotton
fields
> and kudzu.
>
> We go to town to trick or treat with friends in their neighborhood. When
my
> kids were little and had short attention spans, we'd trick or treat at the
few
> nearby relatives or friends we knew--by car.
>
> I made allowance for practical reasons when I mentioned Canada. Fear
based
> living is not on my list.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:19:45 EST
> From: Genant2@...
> Subject: Re: Re: tracts
>
> >>That way you know who your children are
> getting
> candy from and they are in the church parking lot. It has grown over the
> years to include anyone who is comfortable with their kids trick or
treating
> with
> those church members.<<
>
>
> Fear.
>
>
>
> It may be fear and I have only trunk or treated once with my boys but I
> always want to know who it is that is giving my boys candy. Maybe it
comes from
> when I was a child and it seemed like every week I was hearing that
someone had
> put something into food at the convenience store. Can't remember the
exact
> details now but that was before all the tamper sealing things we have now
for
> food items.
> Pam G
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:14:27 EST
> From: Halo5964@...
> Subject: tracts
>
> The pictures
> and prose are purposely set up to incite fear and guilt. To me, it is no
> different than if somebody showed my small child the movie "Halloween" for
> the express purpose of scarying them.
>
> Julie S.
>
> I have obviously not been exposed to what some of you have experienced. I
> looked at the Chick tract site-never seen them before. What we get around
here,
> and it is the only thing I've ever seen described as a tract, is a peice
of
> paper the size of the candy with Jesus Loves You all over it in different
> colors, and maybe a Scripture. Always attached to the candy, so my
children have
> never felt like they didn't get the "deal" they were supposed to get. And
> we've gotten more than candy-sometimes they get Halloween pencils, vampire
teeth,
> coloring books, crackers, and spider rings. Oh, yes, this year we got
> eyeballs! Please forgive my being so naive, I have just been so surprised
at the
> reactions to this subject. I would have never had a clue! I'm just not a
person
> that wastes much time and energy on things I can't change. And I hope no
one
> takes that the wrong way. That is just what works for me.
>
> Carol
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:58:54 EST
> From: Halo5964@...
> Subject: tracts
>
> if
> someone really CARES to try to convert people, this is a
> counterproductive way to do it because it is offensive to other
> parents. I get it that they think they have this great gift - eternal
> life - and they want to pass it on - but my point is that they are
> hurting their own chances of passing it on when they hand out tracts to
> trick-or-treaters.
>
> Totally agreed, Pam. I believe the only true way to "convert" is to live
by
> example. I have a friend that people always ask her, "why are you so full
of
> joy" and that opens up much more doors than anything else I've ever seen.
>
> Carol
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:33:29 -0500
> From: "Brian and Kathy Stamp" <bstamp@...>
> Subject: Re: Sandra question about an article you wrote
>
> "What a great way to minimize the trauma of early schooling for
> the child who just isn't ready."
>
> Funny that's what I did do for my kids for a long time. I was so angry at
the schools for sending home all this homework for young children. Like the
8 hours a day they had them wasn't enough. But once I gave them the option
to be at home and they decided to go back to school because they missed
their friends ( and honestly I believe they are so brainwashed by school
and friends they truly believe they'll be stupid if they don't go) I started
to question what the right thing to do is. I mean helping them feels right
because I love them and want them to succeed at what's important to them,
but I also feel like an enabler at times. Enabling them to stay in a
situation that I don't think is all that healthy by not making them suffer
the consequences of either the hours of homework and the time it takes away
from family and friends or not doing it and dealing with the teacher
comments/punishements.
>
> The funny thing is they are slowly seeing that their sisters and brother
at home are learning the important things like reading and having a great
time all day too.
>
> I totally agree with what that author said for parents stuck sending their
kids to school. Why make a kid with no choice suffer any more then they have
to.
>
> Thanks for the info.
> Kathy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: The Scanlons
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Sandra question about an article
you wrote
>
>
> Kathy,
> I read in a book called One to One about homework help. This was advice
for
> parents who couldn't pull their kids out of school just yet (or ever
because
> of custody agreements/disagreements or whathaveyou). The author
recommends
> actually *doing* the homework for the child! What a brilliant idea.
Doing
> the homework went along with making sure that your child understands
that
> you don't think there's something wrong with him because he can't read
or do
> the math. What a great way to minimize the trauma of early schooling
for
> the child who just isn't ready.
>
> Not your situation, but your email made me think of it.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:47:58 -0500
> From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> Subject: Re: tracts
>
> on 11/5/03 8:14 AM, Halo5964@... at Halo5964@... wrote:
>
> > 'm just not a person
> > that wastes much time and energy on things I can't change. And I hope
no one
> > takes that the wrong way. That is just what works for me.
>
> It's not a discussion intended to change what's going on or stir up
people's
> anger and frustration over what is beyond their ability to control. It's
> just a discussion of the idea, turning it around this way and that,
> exploring feelings and thoughts and various points of view. I find it
> fascinating how and why people believe what they do.
>
> I think the Christians that hand out these tracts do believe they're doing
> good. They know, of course, that most of the tracts get thrown away, but
> probably feel that if even one saves one person, then all was worth it.
>
> They are probably thinking most of the tracts have a neutral effect, and,
if
> there are people who get angry about a tract, they were already angry.
Since
> they can't see the negative effects -- the negative feelings towards
> Christianity and their brand in particular that their approach
*creates* --,
> and do see the positive effects of new faces turning up at church
> occasionally, it seems like more good than harm is coming out of it.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 13:50:14 -0000
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> Subject: Re: on candy and other limits
>
> good point. I'll pick up four or FIVE bags of candy, then. Should get
> us to the weekend when I can get some bulk candies at the big grocery
> store. ;) One bag would truly last us one day here, between kids and
> adults...
>
> thanks!
>
> HeidiC
>
>
> --- In [email protected], HMSL2@a... wrote:
> > Wait!
> > You cant buy just one bag can ya? Doesn't one of you have a house
> full of
> > kids? You probably wont have any candy left if you buy just one.
> One bag per 1-2
> > kids for a couple weeks and it should all slow down.
> > Laura
> > <<<In a message dated 11/4/2003 10:23:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
> > okay, pam. The challenge is on! I'll pick up a sack of candy
> tomorrow
> > and set it out...in a bowl...and keep it filled...won't we JUST see.
> > ***********************************************
> > I want to try too. I'm just wondering if the results will be
> different for
> > us, though, with children I didn't raise from day one (foster/adopt
> kids in
> > addition to my bio kids). It'll be interesting to see what happens.
> >
> > Nancy B. in WV
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:04:30 -0000
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> Subject: Re: taking the plunge
>
> Hey Amy! You're doing great, simply by taking this deep breath and
> making that phone call.
>
> Now...hang out with your child. Don't worry about whether he's
> learning or what...he IS, take it from me...and let him take the
> lead. Enjoy him. It's like Julie S said...like diving in and the
> water's fine!
>
> blessings, HeidiC
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "arcarpenter2003"
> <arcarpenter@c...> wrote:
> > Well, today was the day. I called Fisher's school principal and
> told
> > him we would be homeschooling, starting next week. He's only got
> two
> > half-days of school left, since this is parent-teacher conference
> week
> > -- a chance to say good-bye.
> >
> > Now that the wheels are in motion, I'm surprised at how many fears
> are
> > surfacing for me. I thought I felt very sure of this. When we made
> > the decision to do it *now*, Fisher was feeling overscheduled and
> very
> > much wanted to do it. Now his thoughts are turning to his nice
> > teachers and the things about school that he does like (recess, gym,
> > music <g>), and the fact that people there like him. I know in the
> > long run this is the right thing, but the transition is feeling a
> > little dicey.
> >
> > I'll take any and all words of encouragement. <g>
> >
> > Amy
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 09:13:03 -0500
> From: "Lillian Haas" <lhaas@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: on candy and other limits
>
> But what if there's a physical sensitivity to sugar that interferes? You
> wouldn't suggest to an alcoholic that he just keep his glass filled till
he
> was sick of it. I'd really like to try the endless-supply candy idea, both
> for myself and for my sons, but I'm truly afraid that I just wouldn't
stop.
>
> I know the concept of sugar addiction is controversial, and I'm certainly
> not suggesting that it's an addiction the way alcoholism is, but I know I
> react physically and psychologically to sugar in a way most people do not.
>
> Lillian
>
>
>
> > > candy will last for weeks. My younger son has eaten all his
> > already. If I
> > > have candy, I will eat it all at one sitting.
> >
> >
> > You won't if there's more of it than you are physically capable of
> > eating. If you buy 14 bags of 1/2 price Halloween candy you won't
> > eat it all at one sitting. And if you somehow managed to, you'd
> > probably be put off candy for a good long time. ;)
> >
> > "If I have candy, I will eat it all at one sitting" is one of those lies
> > we tell ourselves, and I think goes along the same lines of "he
> > would watch TV all day if I let him. It's genetics."
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:21:31 -0000
> From: "Heidi" <bunsofaluminum60@...>
> Subject: Re: tracts
>
> You see, Hallowe'en is an EVIL holiday. Pagan in origin, and
> celebratory of death (see? Sonic the Hedgehog going door to door.
> Death...yah)...we Christians mustn't do Hallowe'en.
>
> What? The kids REALLY like putting on costumes? Why should the pagans
> have all the candy? Good points.
>
> *I* know, let's have a "Harvest Celebration"! We won't use the "H"
> word at all! It'll be a genuine day of celebration for the bounties
> that God has showered upon us this Autumn! We'll put booths in the
> church basement, and every booth will hand out prizes...*I* know, the
> prizes can be CANDY!!! and the kids can dress up in costumes! Nothing
> scary, though.
>
> And so, for about the past decade, the Christian thing to do was hit
> the church "Harvest Celebration," "Hallelujah Night," or what have
> you.
>
> But other kids were out there, dashing door to door and getting candy
> from everyone in the neighborhood! Oh, darnitall. We simply can NOT
> do trick-or-treating...but that fresh outdoor air! the dashing door
> to door...*I* know! Let's take the Harvest Carnival outside!
>
> anyway. Sorry. I've been cynical about this for a long time. If
> Hallowe'en is evil, then Christians shouldn't have anything to do
> with it at all. No dressing up; no begging for candy; no handing out
> candy (or anything else) If it isn't, then why make up some
> big "baptized" version of it? sheesh.
>
> HeidiC
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 11/4/2003 8:58:58 PM Central Standard Time,
> > Genant2@a... writes:
> > I think the idea started when church members wanted a safer
> environment for
> > their children to trick or treat in. It was originally church
> members with
> > candy for other church members. That way you know who your
> children are
> > getting
> > candy from and they are in the church parking lot. It has grown
> over the
> > years to include anyone who is comfortable with their kids trick or
> treating
> > with
> > those church members.
> >
> >
> > Fear.
> >
> > Tuck
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 06:24:30 -0800
> From: Tim and Maureen <tmthomas@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: taking the plunge
>
> As a Dad, I found this "plunge" pretty hard. Are we hurting them? What
would "the guys" think!? What if they grow up "stupid?" My mother's gonna
freak! (ex-teacher)
>
> I took lots of deep breaths and one day at a time - like when I was
quitting smoking! :O))
>
> Every once in a while I'd think they needed more "discipline" but that
faded as I saw the results - now I am in awe of how well it can work. They
are such real people!
>
> My thots
> TimT
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Heidi
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 6:04 AM
> Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: taking the plunge
>
>
> Hey Amy! You're doing great, simply by taking this deep breath and
> making that phone call.
>
> Now...hang out with your child. Don't worry about whether he's
> learning or what...he IS, take it from me...and let him take the
> lead. Enjoy him. It's like Julie S said...like diving in and the
> water's fine!
>
> blessings, HeidiC
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "arcarpenter2003"
> <arcarpenter@c...> wrote:
> > Well, today was the day. I called Fisher's school principal and
> told
> > him we would be homeschooling, starting next week. He's only got
> two
> > half-days of school left, since this is parent-teacher conference
> week
> > -- a chance to say good-bye.
> >
> > Now that the wheels are in motion, I'm surprised at how many fears
> are
> > surfacing for me. I thought I felt very sure of this. When we made
> > the decision to do it *now*, Fisher was feeling overscheduled and
> very
> > much wanted to do it. Now his thoughts are turning to his nice
> > teachers and the things about school that he does like (recess, gym,
> > music <g>), and the fact that people there like him. I know in the
> > long run this is the right thing, but the transition is feeling a
> > little dicey.
> >
> > I'll take any and all words of encouragement. <g>
> >
> > Amy
>
>
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>

Heidi

I wouldn't rely on The DaVinci Code for historical data. He cites The
Gnostic Gospels with as much veracity as valid historical documents,
when the earliest copies of the Gnostic Gospels are dated in the 4th
century or later. The author claims that early Christians didn't
consider the Lord to be God, when early Christians most certainly DID
consider Him to be just that. I enjoyed reading The DaVinci Code, but
it isn't an historical treatise by anyone's measure, and it really
isn't all that well written.

As for all these Christian holidays coming out of Paganism...
actually, I have read a book that refutes this notion. (and can't
remember the title. It is a scholarly, historian thing. Like, a PhD
thesis or something. 500 pages + ) The Reformers wanted Christians to
make a clean break from R Catholicism; therefore, they stigmatized
various Catholic practices by saying they came from paganism.
According to this essay, archaeological data indicates that many of
these traditions didn't come into practice until after Christianity
got into an area. I'll try and remember specifics. The Yule Log was
one of the "pagan practices" debunked in the book. sheesh. can't
remember, but Christian feast days coming from paganism or not, isn't
my main point.

IF Christian traditions come from paganism, my question just takes on
more weight. Why is Halloween evil (and it IS considered evil by many
Christians. Take my word on that one. One of my best friends won't do
trick or treating, and another one completely ignores the day...) Why
is All Hallow's Eve considered evil, and to be shunned, when
Christmas and Easter are embraced? IF they come from pagan practices,
we should shun all of it. And in fact, the Reformers and their
followers DID. Christmas was illegal in Puritan America. The
book "Robinson Crusoe" was written by the Puritan Daniel Defoe. He
makes a point of ignoring Dec. 25. by having the main character mark
off days on his calendar and pointedly having Dec. 25 be just another
day, nothing special.

The Puritans tried to rename the days of the week, even. Sunday being
named after the Sun, Monday after the Moon, and so forth. Can't have
THAT.

If Hallowe'en is evil, having come from paganism, then we must follow
through on our logic and ban other Christian high holy days. But
today's Christians don't follow through. They just consider
Hallowe'en evil, but only certain parts of it, like trick or
treating. They allow the dressing up and the candy, but ban the trick
or treating...or, just put it in the church basement or parking lot.
And they never think twice about Christmas and Easter or the origin
of any other tradition.

blessings, HeidiC

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
<jnjstau@g...> wrote:
> <<then why make up some big baptized version of it at all?>>
>
> Because thats how all Christian holidays came into being.
Christmas is
> Yule, when the Pagans celebrate the coming of the Sun God, born out
of the
> Mother who was impregnated by the Horned God. Easter is the Pagan
festival
> of fertility, hence all the eggs. All Saints Day or All Hallow's
Day or Day
> of the Dead (depending on your particular flavor of Christianity)
is the
> Pagan Samhain that celebrates the lowering of the veil between this
world
> and the spirit world.
>
> A fictional book that talks about some of this kind of stuff, using
lots of
> actual facts is "The Davinci Code". Good read and will give people
a place
> to start researching if this kind of thing actually interests them.
>
> Julie S.---born again Pagan

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/5/2003 3:20:26 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
-=-The author claims that early Christians didn't
consider the Lord to be God, when early Christians most certainly DID
consider Him to be just that.-=-

According to what source? What's the earliest date on epistles?

Nobody has "the originals" of any of that stuff.

-=-It is a scholarly, historian thing. Like, a PhD
thesis or something. 500 pages + -=-

Why do you respect a PhD thesis (dissertation, written by someone with a
master's degree) more than the research done for a novel? I'm not defending a
particular novel, just pointing out what is an interesting prejudice for an
unschooler to be showing here.

-=-The Puritans tried to rename the days of the week, even. Sunday being
named after the Sun, Monday after the Moon, and so forth. Can't have
THAT.-=-

Hadn't heard that! Do you have a reference?

The other weekdays are names for Norse and Roman gods--at least the Sun and
the Moon are in the Bible! <bwg>

What were the proposed replacement days?

-=-If Hallowe'en is evil, having come from paganism, then we must follow
through on our logic and ban other Christian high holy days. But
today's Christians don't follow through. -=-

We know fundamentalists who won't celebrate anything but Easter, and that one
is only a Church-going day, no eggs, etc.

What's being discussed here as Christian holidays and pagan holidays is
dealing just with England/English/American stuff. The Catholic church has been
really good about adapting local custom and giving it a religous overlay. So
local observances were maintained but given Christian meanings. It happened in
Rome and Greece, all over Europe. It's still done now. At the Pueblos on the
northern Rio Grande they have traditional dances which have come to be
associated with Christmas and danced on Christmas eve, with the dancers starting in
the church (or ending there). Other dances which haven't been attached to
Christian holidays start and end in the kiva.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Roberts

Isn't The DaVinci Code a work of fiction?



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanna Wilkinson

--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Roberts
<mamabethuscg@y...> wrote:
> Isn't The DaVinci Code a work of fiction?
>
Yes, but a lot of it is based on the book "The Woman with the
Alabaster Jar". Margaret Starbird.
I just finished reading it. She has a lot of really cool theories
about the lost feminine in Christianity (thanks to Catholicism)and
how it was secretly handed down through the ages, through secret
societies, songs, art....
Mary Magdaline being the wife of Jesus.

Joanna

Heidi

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/5/2003 3:20:26 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
> -=-The author claims that early Christians didn't
> consider the Lord to be God, when early Christians most certainly
DID
> consider Him to be just that.-=-
>
> According to what source? What's the earliest date on epistles?

The last book of the New Testament written was Revelations. There is
evidence in the Early Fathers (Origen, Justinian ??? help. Not
exactly sure of the names)...that this book was written before 70
A.D. These Early Fathers are documented to have written before that
date, and they quote Revelations...The first epistle written was from
Paul to Timothy. If I remember rightly, it was written by about 50
A.D. but I don't know the source on that one.


> Nobody has "the originals" of any of that stuff.

No, but of ancient writings, the documentation for the Bible is very
solid. There is a fragment of the Gospel of John haling from the
first century, which scholars believe is a copy made from the
original gospel, written by John. I.e., one of JOHN'S students,
within John's lifetime.

The DaVinci Code came across as "The early followers of Jesus loved
him alot, but didn't believe he was resurrected nor that he was
deity. The Council of Nicea made it up and voted on it." That is
bogus. The first Christians believed in the resurrection of Jesus
Christ and spread that news with fervor and boldness.


>
> -=-It is a scholarly, historian thing. Like, a PhD
> thesis or something. 500 pages + -=-
>
> Why do you respect a PhD thesis (dissertation, written by someone
with a
> master's degree) more than the research done for a novel?

Oh! Sorry...I made an impression here I didn't mean to. I was sort of
making an excuse for me not having remembered it, nor remembered
details in the book: It was scholarly and thesis-like, therefore, I
couldn't remember much of it. LOL Not that I thought it was superior
NECESSARILY, but that it was rather over *my* head.


> -=-The Puritans tried to rename the days of the week, even. Sunday
being
> named after the Sun, Monday after the Moon, and so forth. Can't
have
> THAT.-=-
>
> Hadn't heard that! Do you have a reference?

You hadn't HEARD that Sunday was named for the Sun? Really...Monday
for the Moon? It's pretty common knowledge. Dunno where I first heard
it. Some time, as a child, I imagine.

In German, Sontagg, Montagg, Dienstagg (service day?), Mittwoch (mid-
week), Donnerstag (Thor being the god of thunder), Frietag and
Sonnabend (sunday's evening)

> The other weekdays are names for Norse and Roman gods--at least the
Sun and
> the Moon are in the Bible! <bwg>
>
> What were the proposed replacement days?

Sunday=Lord's Day; Monday=First Day; Tuesday=Second Day; Oden's Day ;)
=midweek; Thursday=Fourth day??? Friday=fifth day, I suppose.
Saturday=Sabbath. I got THIS from historical fiction LOL

since the other weekdays are named after gods, where do YOU suppose
the names Sunday and Monday came from?

> -=-If Hallowe'en is evil, having come from paganism, then we must
follow
> through on our logic and ban other Christian high holy days. But
> today's Christians don't follow through. -=-
>
> We know fundamentalists who won't celebrate anything but Easter,
and that one
> is only a Church-going day, no eggs, etc.

So do we. They want to drop any and all trappings of "traditions of
men" These are the same "variety" of Christian who want no candles,
no bells, no stained glass, in their worship services. We go to a
pretty conservative church which outright rejects the "traditional"
common cup in communion (among many other things such as the liturgy
and the church calendar, etc). The reason being, the common cup is
used in mainline denoms, which fundamentalists broke from 100 years
ago, because the mainliners were turning away from Scripture. The
fundamentalists dropped EVERY element that was used by the main
denoms, because they wanted to make the break complete.

IMO, they cut themselves away from an important anchor.

But this illustrates my point (and my peeve): They dropped the
liturgy and the colorful altar decor and candles and such, not
wanting anything to do with "extra-biblical" practices...but they
(eventually?) went along with Christmas (nowhere commanded nor
recommended in the Bible) and Easter (okay, celebrations for the
Resurrection of Christ are mentioned in the New Testament, but dyeing
eggs? bunny rabbits? nope) And although evangelical churches still
don't do much with candles, they have taken to decorating their
churches colorfully...not with liturgical robes and altar cloths, but
with big felt banners and the like.

IF a Bible-believing, truly obedient Christian church must drop "the
traditions of men" then DROP THEM. If we truly can't have anything
outside of Biblically mandated practices, then better not do
Hallowe'en...and then you'd best drop Christmas as well as Easter
(unless it is a simple, celebratory church service in honor of the
Resurrection) As you say, there are groups who do just this. They ARE
following through on their convictions when they don't do Christmas
or other celebrations.

But for the most part, my observation has been, Modern Christians of
the Fundamental Variety (outside the mainline denoms, mind you),
Evangelicals if you will, consider Hallowe'en to be an evil day. This
is why you'll find basement "Harvest Celebrations" in various
churches. Can't do actual trick or treating, but you CAN go to the
church festival...it's okay. THAT isn't Hallowe'en. THAT is a Harvest
Celebration.


> What's being discussed here as Christian holidays and pagan
holidays is
> dealing just with England/English/American stuff.

So, the Roman Catholic church didn't have Hallowe'en in England? I
don't get your meaning. The Irish immigration was what brought that
holiday to America...it was in Great Britain before it came to
America, and Ireland being Catholic...???

The Catholic church has been
> really good about adapting local custom and giving it a religous
overlay. So
> local observances were maintained but given Christian meanings. It
happened in
> Rome and Greece, all over Europe. It's still done now.

Right. I know that. But I think the fact that the Highly Magnified
and Revered "scholarly PhD 500+ page book" LOL would indicate that at
least SOMEONE is finding evidence that not all Christian holidays
have roots in paganism. For some of it at least, the traditions began
after Christianity came to an area...not already there and made into
Christian holidays by the church...

blessings, HeidiC

Deborah Lewis

***You hadn't HEARD that Sunday was named for the Sun? ***

I thought she meant she hadn't heard the Puritans had tried to rename the
days of the week. I probably thought that because I never heard that.<g>
It seems logical they would try though, all those days named after
other gods must have been hell on Puritans.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 11-5-2003 9:27:16 PM Mountain Standard Time,
Wilkinson6@... writes:
theories about the lost feminine in Christianity (thanks to Catholicism) and
how it was secretly handed down through the ages, through secret societies,
songs, art....
Mary Magdaline being the wife of Jesus.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The Moon Beneath Her Feet is another wonderful book about this story, from
Mary M's perspective.
I LOVE biblical fiction :)

diana,
The wackiest widow westriver...
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The
latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to
hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." ~ Albert
Einstein


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]