Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] children being respected.
Stepheny Cappel
Here is my response to another list I am on, which I may not be on long LOL. Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served first. The children first philosophy is so wrong and that it teaches them "me first", It doesn't teach them respect, obedience, and the natural order of things. This is part of teaching our children very valuable life-long lessons.
Lessons in what? that they are second class? I am so infuriated. This is what I replied....
I'm not sure about this. If I go to a church dinner, I like to eat with the children I came with. We were in a church that made the children go last and my husband was horrified by that. Our children always got in line with us and we helped them get their things so they didn't stick their hands in everything... but it is our responsibility to make sure they have what they need. We don't attend that church anymore. Children are not second class citizens, my dh and I agree on that. They do need to be respectful, but that can be taught by example. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lessons in what? that they are second class? I am so infuriated. This is what I replied....
I'm not sure about this. If I go to a church dinner, I like to eat with the children I came with. We were in a church that made the children go last and my husband was horrified by that. Our children always got in line with us and we helped them get their things so they didn't stick their hands in everything... but it is our responsibility to make sure they have what they need. We don't attend that church anymore. Children are not second class citizens, my dh and I agree on that. They do need to be respectful, but that can be taught by example. Stepheny
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
odrade7
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
[Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings]
What is with that? Not the same scenario, but it reminded me of an
incident that happened this summer involving some family members. A
group of us (sisters and our kids) got together at one sisters house
to hang out and visit. I brought lunches for my kids (dietary issues)
and my half sister, M, brought a lunch for her DS. Host sister ran
out to pick up lunch for the rest of us and while she was out I got my
kids (ages 4 and 2) their lunches because A) they were hungry and B)
it's easier for everyone if they were fed and happy and playing when
my food arrived rather than them be cranky and impatient to eat. Who
wants that?
Anyway, Sister M's son (age 5) asked his mom to get his lunch out too
because he was hungry and she replied to him in a loud,
announcement-type voice, "No, you may not have your lunch yet. It's
rude to eat before everyone else has their food."
F*ck that. She and I don't get along (we didn't even know each other
until 8 years ago) so her comment was actually directed to ME, but she
made her son sit and be hungry just to prove a point. Grrrrr. The
poor kid was hungry -- feed him! My kids were hungry right then and
I'm not going to make them wait to eat just for the sake of waiting.
I don't understand that line of thinking.
TreeGoddess
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
[Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings]
What is with that? Not the same scenario, but it reminded me of an
incident that happened this summer involving some family members. A
group of us (sisters and our kids) got together at one sisters house
to hang out and visit. I brought lunches for my kids (dietary issues)
and my half sister, M, brought a lunch for her DS. Host sister ran
out to pick up lunch for the rest of us and while she was out I got my
kids (ages 4 and 2) their lunches because A) they were hungry and B)
it's easier for everyone if they were fed and happy and playing when
my food arrived rather than them be cranky and impatient to eat. Who
wants that?
Anyway, Sister M's son (age 5) asked his mom to get his lunch out too
because he was hungry and she replied to him in a loud,
announcement-type voice, "No, you may not have your lunch yet. It's
rude to eat before everyone else has their food."
F*ck that. She and I don't get along (we didn't even know each other
until 8 years ago) so her comment was actually directed to ME, but she
made her son sit and be hungry just to prove a point. Grrrrr. The
poor kid was hungry -- feed him! My kids were hungry right then and
I'm not going to make them wait to eat just for the sake of waiting.
I don't understand that line of thinking.
TreeGoddess
Stepheny Cappel
I see this as mom being in control of course, and then being totally aggravated because the kids are whining and hungry. I don't like making them wait either. We are doing the eat whenever you want and it seems to be working. I don't make them wait, and I am trying to remember to bring along a snack and drinks to all our outings. Most of the time I believe kids go into meltdown because they are hungry or thirsty. It's plain meanness to make them go hungry. Stepheny
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
[Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings]
What is with that? Not the same scenario, but it reminded me of an
incident that happened this summer involving some family members. A
group of us (sisters and our kids) got together at one sisters house
to hang out and visit. I brought lunches for my kids (dietary issues)
and my half sister, M, brought a lunch for her DS. Host sister ran
out to pick up lunch for the rest of us and while she was out I got my
kids (ages 4 and 2) their lunches because A) they were hungry and B)
it's easier for everyone if they were fed and happy and playing when
my food arrived rather than them be cranky and impatient to eat. Who
wants that?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
[Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings]
What is with that? Not the same scenario, but it reminded me of an
incident that happened this summer involving some family members. A
group of us (sisters and our kids) got together at one sisters house
to hang out and visit. I brought lunches for my kids (dietary issues)
and my half sister, M, brought a lunch for her DS. Host sister ran
out to pick up lunch for the rest of us and while she was out I got my
kids (ages 4 and 2) their lunches because A) they were hungry and B)
it's easier for everyone if they were fed and happy and playing when
my food arrived rather than them be cranky and impatient to eat. Who
wants that?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/03 02:43:21 PM Central Standard Time,
stephc62@... writes:
Here is my response to another list I am on, which I may not be on long LOL.
Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church meetings,
how men and adults should be fed/served first. The children first philosophy
is so wrong and that it teaches them "me first", It doesn't teach them respect,
obedience, and the natural order of things. This is part of teaching our
children very valuable life-long lessons.
Lessons in what? that they are second class? I am so infuriated.
###########
I liked your reply. Our family quit the local homeschooling group this fall
after joining a month or so earlier because of this very same attitude. I had
gone to a parent meeting, thinking it was just that, a parent meeting. WRONG!
There was a couple who were giving a talk about how to keep the spark in a
marriage alive while homeschooling. Problem was the whole talk was about wifely
submission and how the marriage must come first and the kids must learn this.
How this teaches the children obedience blah blah blah. They went on and on
about all these parents who submit to the children by allowing them to be first
instead of keeping dad at the head with the wife as his helper and the children
being obedient. I went home and told Darin all about it, he laughed and said;
"As the head of this household, I command you to never go back. My wife and
kids are not chattel." <beg>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
stephc62@... writes:
Here is my response to another list I am on, which I may not be on long LOL.
Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church meetings,
how men and adults should be fed/served first. The children first philosophy
is so wrong and that it teaches them "me first", It doesn't teach them respect,
obedience, and the natural order of things. This is part of teaching our
children very valuable life-long lessons.
Lessons in what? that they are second class? I am so infuriated.
###########
I liked your reply. Our family quit the local homeschooling group this fall
after joining a month or so earlier because of this very same attitude. I had
gone to a parent meeting, thinking it was just that, a parent meeting. WRONG!
There was a couple who were giving a talk about how to keep the spark in a
marriage alive while homeschooling. Problem was the whole talk was about wifely
submission and how the marriage must come first and the kids must learn this.
How this teaches the children obedience blah blah blah. They went on and on
about all these parents who submit to the children by allowing them to be first
instead of keeping dad at the head with the wife as his helper and the children
being obedient. I went home and told Darin all about it, he laughed and said;
"As the head of this household, I command you to never go back. My wife and
kids are not chattel." <beg>
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/03 1:43:11 PM, stephc62@... writes:
<< Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served first. >>
I agree at church, if there's table space for everybody. And parents will
want to go through the line and help the littler kids.
But I have another experience with such things. I've been to feasts in
three pueblos near where I grew up: San Juan, Santa Clara and San Ildefonso.
Feasts are in homes, like on the same day lots of homes will be serving a
traditional meal. Kind of like Thanksgiving (different food) in the format and
tradition, but they have more than one feast day a year, and they differ somewhat
(different pueblos have different particular days).
Instead of putting up bunches of tables, they serve at the regular table, six
or eight people at a time usually. And it's a precedence order depending
somewhat on the event and on the rank of the people. I was often a teenager, and
so was usually at the last or second to the last table, with whichever friend
I went with. Once I went with Rosita Tsosie to a Pueblo where she didn't
live (she was from Santa Clara) and so I got to eat when she ate, because I
didn't know other people at that house and so they seated me at her "level" of
precedence.
It's not discussed much--the people serving just know who ranks next, they
seat the people that person will want to talk to most, they try not to snub
anyone, and the meal flows along pretty quickly (UNlike Thanksgiving). I guess
one batch of people will be at the table 20 or 25 minutes, and then they clear
it and switch out casually. People are informed when they're going to be
next, so they stay near the house (see how often I was a kid and outside with
other kids? <g>).
It's not offensive or insulting in that context. I was just always glad to
have been invited at all!
The last time I went will probably be the last time I ever go, and it was my
friend Jon's funeral. I was about middlin' of six tables, I think. I saw
with his ex wife, who was my age and I'd known them both since before they were
married, and with one of Jon's sisters, a few years older than I am. There
were younger people still waiting, but they didn't mind. They were playing
video games in the house next door (same lot, relatives) and kicking around in the
yard talking.
In an SCA context there are times when my kids aren't seated the first round,
if there are people who outrank them and the table's full. But that doesn't
mean they can't get to food, just means they don't get the sit-down candlelit
first-class section. That rank isn't strictly by age, and a guest kid would
probably sit with a parent if he didn't know the other kids well enough to
want to hang out with them.
Sandra
<< Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served first. >>
I agree at church, if there's table space for everybody. And parents will
want to go through the line and help the littler kids.
But I have another experience with such things. I've been to feasts in
three pueblos near where I grew up: San Juan, Santa Clara and San Ildefonso.
Feasts are in homes, like on the same day lots of homes will be serving a
traditional meal. Kind of like Thanksgiving (different food) in the format and
tradition, but they have more than one feast day a year, and they differ somewhat
(different pueblos have different particular days).
Instead of putting up bunches of tables, they serve at the regular table, six
or eight people at a time usually. And it's a precedence order depending
somewhat on the event and on the rank of the people. I was often a teenager, and
so was usually at the last or second to the last table, with whichever friend
I went with. Once I went with Rosita Tsosie to a Pueblo where she didn't
live (she was from Santa Clara) and so I got to eat when she ate, because I
didn't know other people at that house and so they seated me at her "level" of
precedence.
It's not discussed much--the people serving just know who ranks next, they
seat the people that person will want to talk to most, they try not to snub
anyone, and the meal flows along pretty quickly (UNlike Thanksgiving). I guess
one batch of people will be at the table 20 or 25 minutes, and then they clear
it and switch out casually. People are informed when they're going to be
next, so they stay near the house (see how often I was a kid and outside with
other kids? <g>).
It's not offensive or insulting in that context. I was just always glad to
have been invited at all!
The last time I went will probably be the last time I ever go, and it was my
friend Jon's funeral. I was about middlin' of six tables, I think. I saw
with his ex wife, who was my age and I'd known them both since before they were
married, and with one of Jon's sisters, a few years older than I am. There
were younger people still waiting, but they didn't mind. They were playing
video games in the house next door (same lot, relatives) and kicking around in the
yard talking.
In an SCA context there are times when my kids aren't seated the first round,
if there are people who outrank them and the table's full. But that doesn't
mean they can't get to food, just means they don't get the sit-down candlelit
first-class section. That rank isn't strictly by age, and a guest kid would
probably sit with a parent if he didn't know the other kids well enough to
want to hang out with them.
Sandra
crazeemom77043
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served first. The children
first philosophy is so wrong and that it teaches them "me first", It
doesn't teach them respect, obedience, and the natural order of
things. This is part of teaching our children very valuable life-
long lessons.
Stepheny --
I agree with you, and that's what I was talking about in my post on
disrespectful parenting. I think that's what my dd's friend's mom
practices, and I think that's what this sort of church thinking does
as well, frankly. It's the way I was raised.
Children are to be seen and not heard. Father as God. (Really. The
man is the head of the household, just as Christ is the head of the
Church.)
I remember that I was a non-person as far as my father was concerned,
until I turned 17. Then, all of a sudden, from one day to the next,
my opinion mattered to him. He would listen to me with respect.
That's a load of bull. I respected my children from day one. I
understood and worked with the limitations that came with their youth
and inexperience, and never forgot that I was the responsible party,
but what they thought and needed and how they felt was always
important to me as we moved through each day. As a result, I always
had happy, well-adjusted kids that other adults found a joy to be
around.
Sandra, you had it right about dd's friend not listening to her
mother, only you gave it longer than it's truly lasted. You said
maybe a couple more years. This girl hasn't listenend to her mother
for years already -- that's part of the reason she got into trouble
in the first place. Classic teenage rebellion.
If we don't respect our children, why in the world should they
respect us (or anyone else for that matter)?
Laura B.
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
Two women are discussing how children should be fed last at church
meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served first. The children
first philosophy is so wrong and that it teaches them "me first", It
doesn't teach them respect, obedience, and the natural order of
things. This is part of teaching our children very valuable life-
long lessons.
>infuriated.
> Lessons in what? that they are second class? I am so
Stepheny --
I agree with you, and that's what I was talking about in my post on
disrespectful parenting. I think that's what my dd's friend's mom
practices, and I think that's what this sort of church thinking does
as well, frankly. It's the way I was raised.
Children are to be seen and not heard. Father as God. (Really. The
man is the head of the household, just as Christ is the head of the
Church.)
I remember that I was a non-person as far as my father was concerned,
until I turned 17. Then, all of a sudden, from one day to the next,
my opinion mattered to him. He would listen to me with respect.
That's a load of bull. I respected my children from day one. I
understood and worked with the limitations that came with their youth
and inexperience, and never forgot that I was the responsible party,
but what they thought and needed and how they felt was always
important to me as we moved through each day. As a result, I always
had happy, well-adjusted kids that other adults found a joy to be
around.
Sandra, you had it right about dd's friend not listening to her
mother, only you gave it longer than it's truly lasted. You said
maybe a couple more years. This girl hasn't listenend to her mother
for years already -- that's part of the reason she got into trouble
in the first place. Classic teenage rebellion.
If we don't respect our children, why in the world should they
respect us (or anyone else for that matter)?
Laura B.
Heidi
How It Is Done At Our Church: Oldest First, then Guests, regardless
of gender. Then families WITH their children. I help mine if they
need it; sometimes they're in line with me, sometimes with friends.
This evolved from a situation where the potluck line was stampeded
regularly: little kids butting in front of the line with no regard
for whose toes they were (sometimes literally?) stepping on, going
through without parents there to help them, fingering everything,
taking ten of something and eating one bite, etc. In fact, it was me
who brought up the idea to the pastor "How about we let the older
folks go first?" And he announced it and it's been that way since.
But the kids don't go last; they just go with their family, who go in
no particular order, after those with Crowns of Silver (gray/white
hair)...and sometimes the seniors wait until the line dies down, too.
btw, what list WAS that? It sounds similar to one I was on briefly.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
last at church meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served
first. The children first philosophy is so wrong and that it teaches
them "me first", It doesn't teach them respect, obedience, and the
natural order of things. This is part of teaching our children very
valuable life-long lessons.
children go last and my husband was horrified by that. Our children
always got in line with us and we helped them get their things so
they didn't stick their hands in everything... but it is our
responsibility to make sure they have what they need. We don't
attend that church anymore. Children are not second class citizens,
my dh and I agree on that. They do need to be respectful, but that
can be taught by example. Stepheny
of gender. Then families WITH their children. I help mine if they
need it; sometimes they're in line with me, sometimes with friends.
This evolved from a situation where the potluck line was stampeded
regularly: little kids butting in front of the line with no regard
for whose toes they were (sometimes literally?) stepping on, going
through without parents there to help them, fingering everything,
taking ten of something and eating one bite, etc. In fact, it was me
who brought up the idea to the pastor "How about we let the older
folks go first?" And he announced it and it's been that way since.
But the kids don't go last; they just go with their family, who go in
no particular order, after those with Crowns of Silver (gray/white
hair)...and sometimes the seniors wait until the line dies down, too.
btw, what list WAS that? It sounds similar to one I was on briefly.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], "Stepheny Cappel"
<stephc62@b...> wrote:
>on long LOL. Two women are discussing how children should be fed
> Here is my response to another list I am on, which I may not be
last at church meetings, how men and adults should be fed/served
first. The children first philosophy is so wrong and that it teaches
them "me first", It doesn't teach them respect, obedience, and the
natural order of things. This is part of teaching our children very
valuable life-long lessons.
>infuriated. This is what I replied....
> Lessons in what? that they are second class? I am so
>eat with the children I came with. We were in a church that made the
> I'm not sure about this. If I go to a church dinner, I like to
children go last and my husband was horrified by that. Our children
always got in line with us and we helped them get their things so
they didn't stick their hands in everything... but it is our
responsibility to make sure they have what they need. We don't
attend that church anymore. Children are not second class citizens,
my dh and I agree on that. They do need to be respectful, but that
can be taught by example. Stepheny
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stepheny Cappel
I discussed this with my oldest daughter and we said of course if your standing their with your family and an older couple comes in you offer them the space ahead of you. Yes crowns of silver come first, showing the children is easier that way. And they enjoy the exchange with us as a family too... I don't mean we run to the head of the line LOL. And by me holding doors open for people I noticed that my children just started doing it on their own if they notice someone coming. Stepheny
How It Is Done At Our Church: Oldest First, then Guests, regardless
of gender. Then families WITH their children. I help mine if they
need it; sometimes they're in line with me, sometimes with friends.
This evolved from a situation where the potluck line was stampeded
regularly: little kids butting in front of the line with no regard
for whose toes they were (sometimes literally?) stepping on, going
through without parents there to help them, fingering everything,
taking ten of something and eating one bite, etc. In fact, it was me
who brought up the idea to the pastor "How about we let the older
folks go first?" And he announced it and it's been that way since.
But the kids don't go last; they just go with their family, who go in
no particular order, after those with Crowns of Silver (gray/white
hair)...and sometimes the seniors wait until the line dies down, too.
btw, what list WAS that? It sounds similar to one I was on briefly.
blessings, HeidiC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How It Is Done At Our Church: Oldest First, then Guests, regardless
of gender. Then families WITH their children. I help mine if they
need it; sometimes they're in line with me, sometimes with friends.
This evolved from a situation where the potluck line was stampeded
regularly: little kids butting in front of the line with no regard
for whose toes they were (sometimes literally?) stepping on, going
through without parents there to help them, fingering everything,
taking ten of something and eating one bite, etc. In fact, it was me
who brought up the idea to the pastor "How about we let the older
folks go first?" And he announced it and it's been that way since.
But the kids don't go last; they just go with their family, who go in
no particular order, after those with Crowns of Silver (gray/white
hair)...and sometimes the seniors wait until the line dies down, too.
btw, what list WAS that? It sounds similar to one I was on briefly.
blessings, HeidiC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]