Need advice, asap please
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
My boys spent the weekend with their grandmother (my MIL) and were happy to
go, as she was to have them. However, from what she told us in phone calls
over the weekend and from conversations with her and with the kids when we
got back we realized how angry she is feeling about how much freedom the
kids have been given since starting unschooling in April. This was the
most time she has spent with them since unschooling. She had no problem
with my 6yo because he is so self-sufficient and loves to play outdoors on
the farm by himself and happily helps her with her chickens. But our 3yo
asked for food all day long and had lots of puzzles and coloring books and
papers, toys, etc. out all over her floor. Apparently he wouldn't just
clean it all up when she asked (he is used to me cleaning with him) and he
went into a shaking rage. I have never seen him do anything this
intense. He has gotten angry of course but nothing like she described. He
didn't tell us that he had a bad time or anything but it is clear that they
are frustrated with each other. She also doesn't understand why we don't
make them say "please" or "thankyou" before we give them something. We
model it and remind them ocassionally.
We are having her over for dinner tonight to talk to her about our
parenting principles; after the kids are asleep. I want to tell her that
the main thing I have learned here is to treat the children with respect
and to do away with all authoritarian parenting. They make their own
choices. We do talk about acting respectfully all the time and point out
when they are not respectful. I just don't know how much consistent
respect she can expect from the 3yo (or 6yo) if she is talking down to him
or with anger. How to tell her this, without just putting her on the
defensive? We really want her to get it. She is a big part of their lives
and may be alone with them for a week (unless this situation doesn't
change) when dh and I go to my brother's wedding in Australia. Thankyou in
advance for any ideas.
Madeline
go, as she was to have them. However, from what she told us in phone calls
over the weekend and from conversations with her and with the kids when we
got back we realized how angry she is feeling about how much freedom the
kids have been given since starting unschooling in April. This was the
most time she has spent with them since unschooling. She had no problem
with my 6yo because he is so self-sufficient and loves to play outdoors on
the farm by himself and happily helps her with her chickens. But our 3yo
asked for food all day long and had lots of puzzles and coloring books and
papers, toys, etc. out all over her floor. Apparently he wouldn't just
clean it all up when she asked (he is used to me cleaning with him) and he
went into a shaking rage. I have never seen him do anything this
intense. He has gotten angry of course but nothing like she described. He
didn't tell us that he had a bad time or anything but it is clear that they
are frustrated with each other. She also doesn't understand why we don't
make them say "please" or "thankyou" before we give them something. We
model it and remind them ocassionally.
We are having her over for dinner tonight to talk to her about our
parenting principles; after the kids are asleep. I want to tell her that
the main thing I have learned here is to treat the children with respect
and to do away with all authoritarian parenting. They make their own
choices. We do talk about acting respectfully all the time and point out
when they are not respectful. I just don't know how much consistent
respect she can expect from the 3yo (or 6yo) if she is talking down to him
or with anger. How to tell her this, without just putting her on the
defensive? We really want her to get it. She is a big part of their lives
and may be alone with them for a week (unless this situation doesn't
change) when dh and I go to my brother's wedding in Australia. Thankyou in
advance for any ideas.
Madeline
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/21/03 8:46:36 AM, madnic@... writes:
<< We do talk about acting respectfully all the time and point out
when they are not respectful. >>
"Respectful" is too vague a concept for a three year old, so I hope you're
not using that term. It might be too difficult a concept for an eight year old.
I don't think telling a kid that saying please and thank you will open a lot
of doors is in any way a bad thing. I don't force my kids to say those
things, but I never needed to force them. If you have kids who have come suddenly
to unschooling ideas, I don't think it wouldn't hurt to make a deal with them
that they do need to act in ways that make others more comfortable.
I'm not sure that's even 'respect.' Sometimes you should say "please" even
more surely to people you don't much respect, because you're less likely to get
their cooperation without it.
When one of my kids is courteous, it makes him a better person right then and
there, regardless of the response or attitude of the person to whom he was
being courteous. So for that reason I don't see it as "being respectful," but
as being the best person he can be.
<< I want to tell her that
the main thing I have learned here is to treat the children with respect
and to do away with all authoritarian parenting. >>
Are you telling her "there's this website, and they said..."?
I think that's a bad idea.
For one thing, there are many more sources for these ideas than this website,
and if you pin it all on one online source it won't increase her confidence.
I think if I were explaining this to someone skeptical, I would say "Lots of
families are..." and present the ideas that way. I eased into it through La
Leche L and my in-laws had met lots of those kids, so I had it easier.
For many people saying "There's this website..." is like saying "There's this
gypsy fortune-teller..." or "I had a dream..." because many see the internet
as smoke, mirrors, and wispy perverts.
<<She is a big part of their lives
and may be alone with them for a week (unless this situation doesn't
change) when dh and I go to my brother's wedding in Australia. >>
How soon is that?
Can you borrow money to take the kids with you?
How sad for them to be away from you for a week AND miss a trip to Australia!
And how sad if that week with their grandmother creates so much unhappiness
that the therapy to undo it would cost as much as two fares to Australia, too.
Sandra
<< We do talk about acting respectfully all the time and point out
when they are not respectful. >>
"Respectful" is too vague a concept for a three year old, so I hope you're
not using that term. It might be too difficult a concept for an eight year old.
I don't think telling a kid that saying please and thank you will open a lot
of doors is in any way a bad thing. I don't force my kids to say those
things, but I never needed to force them. If you have kids who have come suddenly
to unschooling ideas, I don't think it wouldn't hurt to make a deal with them
that they do need to act in ways that make others more comfortable.
I'm not sure that's even 'respect.' Sometimes you should say "please" even
more surely to people you don't much respect, because you're less likely to get
their cooperation without it.
When one of my kids is courteous, it makes him a better person right then and
there, regardless of the response or attitude of the person to whom he was
being courteous. So for that reason I don't see it as "being respectful," but
as being the best person he can be.
<< I want to tell her that
the main thing I have learned here is to treat the children with respect
and to do away with all authoritarian parenting. >>
Are you telling her "there's this website, and they said..."?
I think that's a bad idea.
For one thing, there are many more sources for these ideas than this website,
and if you pin it all on one online source it won't increase her confidence.
I think if I were explaining this to someone skeptical, I would say "Lots of
families are..." and present the ideas that way. I eased into it through La
Leche L and my in-laws had met lots of those kids, so I had it easier.
For many people saying "There's this website..." is like saying "There's this
gypsy fortune-teller..." or "I had a dream..." because many see the internet
as smoke, mirrors, and wispy perverts.
<<She is a big part of their lives
and may be alone with them for a week (unless this situation doesn't
change) when dh and I go to my brother's wedding in Australia. >>
How soon is that?
Can you borrow money to take the kids with you?
How sad for them to be away from you for a week AND miss a trip to Australia!
And how sad if that week with their grandmother creates so much unhappiness
that the therapy to undo it would cost as much as two fares to Australia, too.
Sandra
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
Perhaps it would help to reframe what the source of the distress
is; you said you know that she is angry and that you know the
source of the anger is "how much freedom the kids have been
given since starting unschooling in April". You may be exactly
right, but the odds are always low when we say we know what
someone else feels and why. We tend to assume that others will
oppose unschooling, which means we yell before we are hit.
With a 3 y.o., grandmother isn't really thinking much about how
you are schooling him, but how you are raising him. There are 2
bits it might be helpful to mull over. First it has been a
while since she has had a 3 y.o. to take care of for a weekend,
probably at least 20 years. We forget pretty fast just how
dependent and messy they are. Maybe eliciting from her some
funny stories of scrapes your husband got into as a toddler will
help her remember that each stage has its own challenges.
Second, as a parent with parents and a grandparent with
children, I know first hand, both directions, how deeply
unsettling it is to see different approaches being used to raise
kids. Think of her saying "I know that what I did was the very
best or I wouldn't have done it; because you are using a
different approach is rejecting my wisdom and harming my
grandkids to boot." That isn't a true statement, but it is an
accurate assessment of a common interior voice. If you can
speak to that voice, by pointing out differences in the
time/place you are versus she was and the differences in the
children you have from the children she had, you can quiet that
interior objection.
is; you said you know that she is angry and that you know the
source of the anger is "how much freedom the kids have been
given since starting unschooling in April". You may be exactly
right, but the odds are always low when we say we know what
someone else feels and why. We tend to assume that others will
oppose unschooling, which means we yell before we are hit.
With a 3 y.o., grandmother isn't really thinking much about how
you are schooling him, but how you are raising him. There are 2
bits it might be helpful to mull over. First it has been a
while since she has had a 3 y.o. to take care of for a weekend,
probably at least 20 years. We forget pretty fast just how
dependent and messy they are. Maybe eliciting from her some
funny stories of scrapes your husband got into as a toddler will
help her remember that each stage has its own challenges.
Second, as a parent with parents and a grandparent with
children, I know first hand, both directions, how deeply
unsettling it is to see different approaches being used to raise
kids. Think of her saying "I know that what I did was the very
best or I wouldn't have done it; because you are using a
different approach is rejecting my wisdom and harming my
grandkids to boot." That isn't a true statement, but it is an
accurate assessment of a common interior voice. If you can
speak to that voice, by pointing out differences in the
time/place you are versus she was and the differences in the
children you have from the children she had, you can quiet that
interior objection.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains"
<madnic@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:43 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Need advice, asap please
| My boys spent the weekend with their grandmother (my MIL) and
were happy to
| go, as she was to have them. However, from what she told us
in phone calls
| over the weekend and from conversations with her and with the
kids when we
| got back we realized how angry she is feeling about how much
freedom the
| kids have been given since starting unschooling in April.
This was the
| most time she has spent with them since unschooling. She had
no problem
| with my 6yo because he is so self-sufficient and loves to play
outdoors on
| the farm by himself and happily helps her with her chickens.
But our 3yo
| asked for food all day long and had lots of puzzles and
coloring books and
| papers, toys, etc. out all over her floor. Apparently he
wouldn't just
| clean it all up when she asked (he is used to me cleaning with
him) and he
| went into a shaking rage. I have never seen him do anything
this
| intense. He has gotten angry of course but nothing like she
described. He
| didn't tell us that he had a bad time or anything but it is
clear that they
| are frustrated with each other. She also doesn't understand
why we don't
| make them say "please" or "thankyou" before we give them
something. We
| model it and remind them ocassionally.
|
| We are having her over for dinner tonight to talk to her about
our
| parenting principles; after the kids are asleep. I want to
tell her that
| the main thing I have learned here is to treat the children
with respect
| and to do away with all authoritarian parenting. They make
their own
| choices. We do talk about acting respectfully all the time
and point out
| when they are not respectful. I just don't know how much
consistent
| respect she can expect from the 3yo (or 6yo) if she is
talking down to him
| or with anger. How to tell her this, without just putting her
on the
| defensive? We really want her to get it. She is a big part
of their lives
| and may be alone with them for a week (unless this situation
doesn't
| change) when dh and I go to my brother's wedding in Australia.
Thankyou in
| advance for any ideas.
| Madeline
|
|
|
| ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
| Rent DVDs from home.
| Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
| & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
| http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/0xXolB/TM
| --------------------------------------------------------------
-------~->
|
| "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
group.
|
| To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
| [email protected]
|
| Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
At 11:16 AM 10/21/2003 -0400, you wrote:
being "the best person you can be" vs. "being respectful" is a both easier
to understand and more important in life. Thanks.
read but she just mentioned to me last week that she thinks it is a mistake
to put much stock in what others write. She seems to put a lot of stock in
her new age reading material but I am feeling it is the wrong week to give
her things to read! I will talk about the kids I saw at the conference and
the Ga unschoolers who came to our farm (I wish she had spent more time
with them) and will talk about the changes we have experienced in our kids
since gradually changing the way we parent. I know she has seen the
changes as well, in terms of their excitement about everything and how well
they get along. She has been alone with them for a few hours and commented
about how intelligent they are and how much fun it was to learn yoga from
them or hear the latest dinosaur info. etc. But now that there was a bad
day with Jesse I think all the blame is put on our parenting. I guess I
want her to recognize, as I have had to lately, that our moods and style
(as the adult caretakers) have a huge bearing on how the children are going
to feel and act. My MIL was feeling sick all weekend (wish we hadn't left
now but she insisted she was fine, until we returned!) I think a lot of
what happened was about how she was feeling. It is no fun to suddenly be
alone with kids when you have no energy and feel lousy. I don't want ot
shame her just to ask her to understand why we take time to explain things
to them and why it is O.K. with us if the little one makes a mess and then
doesn't want to clean it up. I want a simple way of telling her. But I'm
thinking the only way she may understand is by having more of those
exciting fun days with them and letting go of her story about Jesse being
"spoiled'" because of these few hard days.
Nicolas may stay here and let me go alone. He is very close to my brother
so we would prefer to bring the kids (that was our original plan) but the
cheapest tickets that time of year are ~$1600!! We are borrowing money just
for our tickets. Also, my brother won't be living in Australia until about
6 mo after the wedding and we would rather bring them in a few years when
we can stay w/my bro., and for longer. We definately want to bring them
there. I agree we can't both go to this wedding if there is any
possibility of anger or resentment on MIL's part towards the kids.
Madeline
>*****I don't think telling a kid that saying please and thank you willI don't often use the word "respect", but I have, and I think the idea of
>open a lot
>of doors is in any way a bad thing. I don't force my kids to say those
>things, but I never needed to force them. If you have kids who have come
>suddenly
>to unschooling ideas, I don't think it wouldn't hurt to make a deal with them
>that they do need to act in ways that make others more comfortable.
>
>I'm not sure that's even 'respect.' Sometimes you should say "please" even
>more surely to people you don't much respect, because you're less likely
>to get
>their cooperation without it.
>
>When one of my kids is courteous, it makes him a better person right then and
>there, regardless of the response or attitude of the person to whom he was
>being courteous. So for that reason I don't see it as "being
>respectful," but
>as being the best person he can be.******
being "the best person you can be" vs. "being respectful" is a both easier
to understand and more important in life. Thanks.
>***For many people saying "There's this website..." is like sayingToo true! I have been wanting to give her articles (yours! and others') to
>"There's this
>gypsy fortune-teller..." or "I had a dream..." because many see the internet
>as smoke, mirrors, and wispy perverts.****
read but she just mentioned to me last week that she thinks it is a mistake
to put much stock in what others write. She seems to put a lot of stock in
her new age reading material but I am feeling it is the wrong week to give
her things to read! I will talk about the kids I saw at the conference and
the Ga unschoolers who came to our farm (I wish she had spent more time
with them) and will talk about the changes we have experienced in our kids
since gradually changing the way we parent. I know she has seen the
changes as well, in terms of their excitement about everything and how well
they get along. She has been alone with them for a few hours and commented
about how intelligent they are and how much fun it was to learn yoga from
them or hear the latest dinosaur info. etc. But now that there was a bad
day with Jesse I think all the blame is put on our parenting. I guess I
want her to recognize, as I have had to lately, that our moods and style
(as the adult caretakers) have a huge bearing on how the children are going
to feel and act. My MIL was feeling sick all weekend (wish we hadn't left
now but she insisted she was fine, until we returned!) I think a lot of
what happened was about how she was feeling. It is no fun to suddenly be
alone with kids when you have no energy and feel lousy. I don't want ot
shame her just to ask her to understand why we take time to explain things
to them and why it is O.K. with us if the little one makes a mess and then
doesn't want to clean it up. I want a simple way of telling her. But I'm
thinking the only way she may understand is by having more of those
exciting fun days with them and letting go of her story about Jesse being
"spoiled'" because of these few hard days.
>***Can you borrow money to take the kids with you?The wedding is in Feb. So we have 5 months. We ahve bought the tix but
>How sad for them to be away from you for a week AND miss a trip to Australia!
>
>And how sad if that week with their grandmother creates so much unhappiness
>that the therapy to undo it would cost as much as two fares to Australia,
>too.*****
Nicolas may stay here and let me go alone. He is very close to my brother
so we would prefer to bring the kids (that was our original plan) but the
cheapest tickets that time of year are ~$1600!! We are borrowing money just
for our tickets. Also, my brother won't be living in Australia until about
6 mo after the wedding and we would rather bring them in a few years when
we can stay w/my bro., and for longer. We definately want to bring them
there. I agree we can't both go to this wedding if there is any
possibility of anger or resentment on MIL's part towards the kids.
Madeline
>Sandra[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1706996/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30509&media=atkins>884dec.jpg
>884df6.jpg
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
><http://www.unschooling.com>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
At 10:49 AM 10/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
together. I want to communicate to her that we are attempting to trust our
kids to make their own decisions while giving them lots of attention and
gentle guidance while they make those decisions. By guidance I mean (for
example) suggesting that it would be much more pleasant (and would get what
they want more) to ask for something nicely than to demand it. This is
working, at home and with other friends. I think her occasional
authoritarian voice (ykwim?) is what throws Jesse. That, and the way she
demands that he give her a kiss (we have tried to discourage this, but not
strongly enough). She is a loving sweet woman but as you say, she is used
to a different approach. We don't want to make her wrong but at the same
time we have to protect our children and want her to be able to spend time
with them alone.
Madeline
>***With a 3 y.o., grandmother isn't really thinking much about howYes, she is thinking about how we are raising him but I think it all goes
>you are schooling him, but how you are raising him.
> There are 2
>bits it might be helpful to mull over. First it has been a
>while since she has had a 3 y.o. to take care of for a weekend,
>probably at least 20 years. We forget pretty fast just how
>dependent and messy they are. Maybe eliciting from her some
>funny stories of scrapes your husband got into as a toddler will
>help her remember that each stage has its own challenges.
>
>Second, as a parent with parents and a grandparent with
>children, I know first hand, both directions, how deeply
>unsettling it is to see different approaches being used to raise
>kids. Think of her saying "I know that what I did was the very
>best or I wouldn't have done it; because you are using a
>different approach is rejecting my wisdom and harming my
>grandkids to boot." That isn't a true statement, but it is an
>accurate assessment of a common interior voice. If you can
>speak to that voice, by pointing out differences in the
>time/place you are versus she was and the differences in the
>children you have from the children she had, you can quiet that
>interior objection.*****
together. I want to communicate to her that we are attempting to trust our
kids to make their own decisions while giving them lots of attention and
gentle guidance while they make those decisions. By guidance I mean (for
example) suggesting that it would be much more pleasant (and would get what
they want more) to ask for something nicely than to demand it. This is
working, at home and with other friends. I think her occasional
authoritarian voice (ykwim?) is what throws Jesse. That, and the way she
demands that he give her a kiss (we have tried to discourage this, but not
strongly enough). She is a loving sweet woman but as you say, she is used
to a different approach. We don't want to make her wrong but at the same
time we have to protect our children and want her to be able to spend time
with them alone.
Madeline
>----- Original Message -----[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>From: "Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains"
><madnic@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 9:43 AM
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Need advice, asap please
>
>
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>info/terms/
>|
>|
>|
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30510&media=zone>a60cdb.jpg
>a60d4a.jpg
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
><http://www.unschooling.com>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Tia Leschke
> I think her occasionalI ask my grandkids and others whether they have a hug for me, and I'm quite
>authoritarian voice (ykwim?) is what throws Jesse. That, and the way she
>demands that he give her a kiss (we have tried to discourage this, but not
>strongly enough).
willing to be turned down. Maybe you could suggest to your mil that she
ask that way. Sometimes I'll just hold my arms open, inviting a hug.
Usually they'll come running over for one, but if not, c'est la vie.
Tia
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
Good idea. But I'm afraid of offending her. I guess it's all in the
delivery. I hope we can have clear communication tonight.
Madeline
At 12:20 PM 10/21/2003 -0700, you wrote:
delivery. I hope we can have clear communication tonight.
Madeline
At 12:20 PM 10/21/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> > I think her occasional[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >authoritarian voice (ykwim?) is what throws Jesse. That, and the way she
> >demands that he give her a kiss (we have tried to discourage this, but not
> >strongly enough).
>
>*****I ask my grandkids and others whether they have a hug for me, and I'm
>quite
>willing to be turned down. Maybe you could suggest to your mil that she
>ask that way. Sometimes I'll just hold my arms open, inviting a hug.
>Usually they'll come running over for one, but if not, c'est la vie
>Tia*****
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1754016/R=0/SIG=11pv1u2ju/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30529&media=atkins>13b29df.jpg
>13b2ab1.jpg
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
><http://www.unschooling.com>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/21/03 10:46:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
madnic@... writes:
parenting with that type of philosophy. Maybe she could read it then discuss
it with her and she might have a better idea what you are talking about.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
madnic@... writes:
> . How to tell her this, without just putting her on theNot sure how to tell her but the book The Unprocessed Child talks a lot about
> defensive? We really want her to get it
parenting with that type of philosophy. Maybe she could read it then discuss
it with her and she might have a better idea what you are talking about.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
The message I got from this was looking at things from both points of view.
My first experience with a mother-in-law was such a nightmare that when I
decided to get remarried I had four criteria-no drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, or
living mother. Now please don't have a cow, that was just my criteria. Everyone
has what they will and will not live with. Anyway, my husband is such a gem
I gave in and accepted another mother-in-law, just to have her top the last
one. I was fortunate enough to have someone tell me what Sandra (I think)
said-you've got to look at both sides and have compassion for the "other" side. I
come out with my claws when it concerns my children, and sometimes, in my
younger years, I realize I hurt people unnecessarily because of that. Tread
gently. People's hearts are truly fragile, and words you use can last a lifetime.
She does love them, or you wouldn't even consider leaving them with her when
you go to Australia. And, one thing I keep telling myself, one day I will be
a grandmother, and I hope my daughter-in-law is more sensitive than I was in
the beginning. But you know what "they" say-what goes around comes around. I
feel your frustration. Just be careful.
With great consideration,
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My first experience with a mother-in-law was such a nightmare that when I
decided to get remarried I had four criteria-no drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, or
living mother. Now please don't have a cow, that was just my criteria. Everyone
has what they will and will not live with. Anyway, my husband is such a gem
I gave in and accepted another mother-in-law, just to have her top the last
one. I was fortunate enough to have someone tell me what Sandra (I think)
said-you've got to look at both sides and have compassion for the "other" side. I
come out with my claws when it concerns my children, and sometimes, in my
younger years, I realize I hurt people unnecessarily because of that. Tread
gently. People's hearts are truly fragile, and words you use can last a lifetime.
She does love them, or you wouldn't even consider leaving them with her when
you go to Australia. And, one thing I keep telling myself, one day I will be
a grandmother, and I hope my daughter-in-law is more sensitive than I was in
the beginning. But you know what "they" say-what goes around comes around. I
feel your frustration. Just be careful.
With great consideration,
Carol
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains
Pam, I think I might suggest this, in a while. She is very book-critical
right now. But I think it's a stage. I read _Unprocessed Child_ last
month and got a lot out of it but for her, some of it may be too radical
for her to accept the parts that we are doing (so far). It would however
be a place from which to start a conversation...
She didn't come tonight! She had a rough afternoon and I really believed
her when she called and said that she had forgotten. Interesting how the
kids were about her coming. They were excited about it and really
disappointed when she didn't make it. I think the few bad moments between
she and Jesse on Sunday were exaggerated by our nervousness about being
away from them (this was a trial run before Australia). Also, a
wonderful young woman who works at the farm will be with them for most of
every day while we are in Australia. She herself was home schooled (in a
different way) but really respects what we are doing and sees the boys a
lot at the farm. We talked to her about the situation and she would be
happy to be with them rather than farm while we are gone. They have a
great relationship. So we will talk to MIL and see how the next visits
with her, and our talk goes before cancelling the ticket. Starting with
tommorow night!
Madeline
At 07:19 PM 10/21/2003 -0400, you wrote:
right now. But I think it's a stage. I read _Unprocessed Child_ last
month and got a lot out of it but for her, some of it may be too radical
for her to accept the parts that we are doing (so far). It would however
be a place from which to start a conversation...
She didn't come tonight! She had a rough afternoon and I really believed
her when she called and said that she had forgotten. Interesting how the
kids were about her coming. They were excited about it and really
disappointed when she didn't make it. I think the few bad moments between
she and Jesse on Sunday were exaggerated by our nervousness about being
away from them (this was a trial run before Australia). Also, a
wonderful young woman who works at the farm will be with them for most of
every day while we are in Australia. She herself was home schooled (in a
different way) but really respects what we are doing and sees the boys a
lot at the farm. We talked to her about the situation and she would be
happy to be with them rather than farm while we are gone. They have a
great relationship. So we will talk to MIL and see how the next visits
with her, and our talk goes before cancelling the ticket. Starting with
tommorow night!
Madeline
At 07:19 PM 10/21/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/21/03 10:46:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>madnic@... writes:
>
> > . How to tell her this, without just putting her on the
> > defensive? We really want her to get it
>
>Not sure how to tell her but the book The Unprocessed Child talks a lot about
>parenting with that type of philosophy. Maybe she could read it then discuss
>it with her and she might have a better idea what you are talking about.
>Pam G
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1754016/R=0/SIG=11pv1u2ju/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30529&media=atkins>203b245.jpg
>203b2f9.jpg
>
>"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
>To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
><http://www.unschooling.com>http://www.unschooling.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
joylyn
Just a couple of things.
First I think a three year old is far too young to be spending a weekend
or even an overnight away from mom and dad, especially with someone,
despite relationship, who doesn't share and follow your parenting and
educational styles. Lexie had her first sleep over at age four, Janene
at age five. Both sleepovers took place with the idea I would and
could come get them at any time and with people who parent as we do.
Lexie, at age 8, is just now ready for spending a week away from mom and
dad, and that she has done with another unschooling family who shares
most of our own beliefs and who raise their children pretty much the
same as we do.
Also, each child is different. I think Lexie could and would spend a
week with my parents, but I would not allow Janene to do this at this
time. Part of it is age, part of it is personality. Janene is just not
as likely to "play the game" with my parents as Lexie will, and this
would create stress and cause problems. I can SO see Janene not
cleaning up and some people not getting that at age five she needs help.
I should add that while my kids both have done sleep aways (Janene
having done maybe 2, Lexie having spent a few weeks away from me and a
lot of sleep overs at age 8) until a few months ago I had never spent a
night away from them. I was stuck in Vegas with car problems and the
girls came back with my brother and spent the night and day away from
me. It was interesting and OK. I was lost without them, without
responsibility. But they were fine. I really don't believe in parents
leaving their kids for weekends or longer until it is clear the kids are
ready and I don't think that happens at age three. Gee at three my kids
were both still nursing. They are still such babies and need mommy to
put them to bed. Personally I'd rather takea vacation we all could
enjoy and afford than leave my little ones before they were ready,
especially with folks who may or may not respect our views on children.
my 2cents.
Joylyn
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains wrote:
First I think a three year old is far too young to be spending a weekend
or even an overnight away from mom and dad, especially with someone,
despite relationship, who doesn't share and follow your parenting and
educational styles. Lexie had her first sleep over at age four, Janene
at age five. Both sleepovers took place with the idea I would and
could come get them at any time and with people who parent as we do.
Lexie, at age 8, is just now ready for spending a week away from mom and
dad, and that she has done with another unschooling family who shares
most of our own beliefs and who raise their children pretty much the
same as we do.
Also, each child is different. I think Lexie could and would spend a
week with my parents, but I would not allow Janene to do this at this
time. Part of it is age, part of it is personality. Janene is just not
as likely to "play the game" with my parents as Lexie will, and this
would create stress and cause problems. I can SO see Janene not
cleaning up and some people not getting that at age five she needs help.
I should add that while my kids both have done sleep aways (Janene
having done maybe 2, Lexie having spent a few weeks away from me and a
lot of sleep overs at age 8) until a few months ago I had never spent a
night away from them. I was stuck in Vegas with car problems and the
girls came back with my brother and spent the night and day away from
me. It was interesting and OK. I was lost without them, without
responsibility. But they were fine. I really don't believe in parents
leaving their kids for weekends or longer until it is clear the kids are
ready and I don't think that happens at age three. Gee at three my kids
were both still nursing. They are still such babies and need mommy to
put them to bed. Personally I'd rather takea vacation we all could
enjoy and afford than leave my little ones before they were ready,
especially with folks who may or may not respect our views on children.
my 2cents.
Joylyn
Nicolas and Madeline Donck; Rains wrote:
> My boys spent the weekend with their grandmother (my MIL) and were[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> happy to
> go, as she was to have them. However, from what she told us in phone
> calls
> over the weekend and from conversations with her and with the kids
> when we
> got back we realized how angry she is feeling about how much freedom the
> kids have been given since starting unschooling in April. This was the
> most time she has spent with them since unschooling. She had no problem
> with my 6yo because he is so self-sufficient and loves to play
> outdoors on
> the farm by himself and happily helps her with her chickens. But our 3yo
> asked for food all day long and had lots of puzzles and coloring books
> and
> papers, toys, etc. out all over her floor. Apparently he wouldn't just
> clean it all up when she asked (he is used to me cleaning with him)
> and he
> went into a shaking rage. I have never seen him do anything this
> intense. He has gotten angry of course but nothing like she
> described. He
> didn't tell us that he had a bad time or anything but it is clear that
> they
> are frustrated with each other. She also doesn't understand why we don't
> make them say "please" or "thankyou" before we give them something. We
> model it and remind them ocassionally.
>
> We are having her over for dinner tonight to talk to her about our
> parenting principles; after the kids are asleep. I want to tell her that
> the main thing I have learned here is to treat the children with respect
> and to do away with all authoritarian parenting. They make their own
> choices. We do talk about acting respectfully all the time and point out
> when they are not respectful. I just don't know how much consistent
> respect she can expect from the 3yo (or 6yo) if she is talking down
> to him
> or with anger. How to tell her this, without just putting her on the
> defensive? We really want her to get it. She is a big part of their
> lives
> and may be alone with them for a week (unless this situation doesn't
> change) when dh and I go to my brother's wedding in Australia.
> Thankyou in
> advance for any ideas.
> Madeline
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1754016/R=0/SIG=11pv1u2ju/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30529&media=atkins>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/21/03 5:31:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
madnic@... writes:
hug or kiss, and if he says no I say, "That's alright, honey. You don't have
to give a hug." And move on. As you explain it to your mil, you might point
out that one of the protections against sexual abuse is teaching a child that
they can say no about what happens to their own body, about who touches and
kisses them.
My two cents,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
madnic@... writes:
> Good idea. But I'm afraid of offending her. I guess it's all in theI've always just told Fisher *in front* of the grandparents. They ask for a
> delivery. I hope we can have clear communication tonight.
> Madeline
>
>
hug or kiss, and if he says no I say, "That's alright, honey. You don't have
to give a hug." And move on. As you explain it to your mil, you might point
out that one of the protections against sexual abuse is teaching a child that
they can say no about what happens to their own body, about who touches and
kisses them.
My two cents,
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]